View Full Version : Did the Sun rise in the East?

Time Bomb Ted
27th Nov 2003, 07:13
Well cover me in chocolate and call me Freddo, the sun actually did rise in the east this morning despite those brain starved morons in the Flat Earth Society (read AFAP/ALPA/Civil Air).

I also notice with great glee that the flights are running pretty much to schedule (or as close as QF can get anyway).

So NAS didn't cause the end of the world. Good onya NASIG. I can only imagine the strain those guys have been under. The next one is on me.

Largely quiet TBT.

27th Nov 2003, 07:31
/me shakes head

I would not speak too soon asshat.

Time Bomb Ted
27th Nov 2003, 07:39

Grow up Tobzalp, you girl.

27th Nov 2003, 07:46
Time Bomb Ted, don't jump the gun.
Give those VFR pilots a chance to fully understand their newly-found freedom (perhaps by the middle of next year)
And give them parachutists time to start launching from the profile departure of 747s, particularly in the approaching hot summer weather which will guarantee those heavies can't outclimb the 'chute zone.

Col. Walter E. Kurtz
27th Nov 2003, 08:02
Plus, the weekend's not here yet.

27th Nov 2003, 08:08
Confusion reigned in my part of the world.

27th Nov 2003, 09:10
Did not take long. First ESIR that i am aware of has gone in on a 1200 not doing the right thing. Education, way to go:ok:

Time Bomb Ted
27th Nov 2003, 10:23
Raise your hand if you have never made a mistake?????

If the 1200 was deliberately doing something wrong, then he/she should be hung by the privates until he/she learns their lesson.

A calm head is needed by all participants at the moment.


27th Nov 2003, 10:43
Sitting at home Today, listening to BN CEN 124.6 This is not verbatim, the transmissions were a lot longer, including A/C type, distance, level intentions etc. But you get the idea.

BN CEN...ABC...Top of descent Dunk Island, request traffic.
ABC...BN CEN...No IFR traffic, VFR radar observed traffic, 4Nm S/W of Dunk, unverified 6700, probably the parachute aircraft, havent heard from him yet........Now passing 7300 unverified

PJE A/C Dunk Island...BN CEN...Squawk ident.
(Nothig heard, but he's probably on an appropriate freq as it hasn't changed since yesterday)
DEF...BN CEN...Identified 2Nm S/W Dunk Island. IFR traffic is ABC, inbound from Cairns etc etc.
BN CEN...DEF...Traffic copied, will maintain own separation.
DEF...BN CEN...Radar services terminated.

ABC...BN CEN...Observed VFR traffic identified as DEF, a PJE A/C for operations at Mission Beach, he will maintain separation from you.
BN CEN...ABC...Copied traffic, call again after landing.

See, it works well. ATC workload is down, airwaves uncluttered by VFR broadcasts and everyone knows whats going on prior to getting there.

Here to Help
27th Nov 2003, 10:55
Time Bomb Ted

A calm head is needed by all participants at the moment.

I agree, however the wording of your original posts were not aimed at keeping heads calm.

No-one said that NAS would cause the end of the world - especially on the first day. It is not a grenade that will go off immediately on implementation. Rather, it is like your namesake - a Time Bomb - that will go off when the holes in the system eventually line up.

You imply that we have all made mistakes. We will continue to make mistakes, so why have we gone to a system that makes these errors result in more dangerous consequences? Why have some layers of safety been removed for no benefit? Worse still, the new system allows for a collision even when people are not making mistakes.

Time Bomb Ted
27th Nov 2003, 11:48
Here to Help,

I was sick and tired of all the "make it stop" , "bring it to an end" and the like that has dominated the discussion. If we were all sitting around having a quiet one, watching the steaks sizzle on the BBQ, instead of flinging insults at the hard working indiviuals from NAS,CASA,AsA, and Defence, then they probably would have listened. Yell at me and I stop listening. Tell the media outright lies in the hope of getting air-time, and it would be the same effect.

Design Safety Case, Implementation Safety Case, Risk Mitigators, etc, etc, doesn't mean diddly squat to the average working pilot out there. Just tell me what you want from me, how to do it and let me at it. We ultimately pay a lot of money to CASA, AsA, and the Dept of Transport for them to do their jobs and to keep us as safe as practical. I say let's trust them. Let them do their jobs unhindered.

Yeah I'll make a mistake or two, hopefully I'll learn from it, but please don't yell at me or try to make me look foolish.

All pilots are a time bomb. At some stage they will do something that will make them think, "What the hell was I thinking." I'm honest to own up to the fact that I know I'll make a mistake. Leading the press into thinking that as a GA pilot, I'll be responsible for taking out an airliner is a slap in the face. You won't make friends that way. No wonder AOPA is backing NAS.

Please let it be known that I respect and have worked with some of the best Air Traffic Controllers on the planet. They do a mighty job, but it is the system that is holding them back, not their attitude. But to be told to Remain OCTA whilst returning from the Canberra Training Area, due to there being 2 aircraft in the airspace is a bit much really. Ultimate responsibility for the flight rests with the Pilot In Command. Start treating the PIC as a responsible adult, not a potential threat to aviation safety.

What is "Commercial Airspace" by the way? I couldn't find it in the AIP.......

Rant over.


27th Nov 2003, 14:00
time bomb ted - people in glass houses....

The telling of blatent lies and untruths sit fairly on the shoulders of John Anderson, Mike Smith and Dick Smith.

I saw Andersons performance in parliament yesterday and I got rather cranky that the very real concerns that I have about this system are dismissed as industrial tactics - that is not only insulting but bullshit.

As a professional aviator I work in an environment that is not always benign. By instituting the changes that we did today we made is even less safe.

There is no emotion in that statement - it is a fact - irrefutable and undisputable.

the tailoring of airspace to suit GA is insanity. GA should be encouraged as much as possible but NOT at the expense of commercial fare paying passengers.

When you fly for pleasure you assume a certain level of risk happily - that is part and parcel with private flying

When you buy a ticket on a commercial aeroplane you don't expect to be unnecessarily exposed to undue risk, you expect the people to whom you have given your hard earned cash to take as much care as possible to get you there in one piece.

The majority of the users should have the majority of the say - and AOPA and the band of weekend warriors that quite obviously don't know shit from brown clay should get a vote proportional with their use of the airways system - which quite frankly is ****** all in percentage terms.

The major airlines should be ashamed of themselves in allowing this to go ahead - if the two major customers of Airservices said thanks but no thanks that would be the end of it....

27th Nov 2003, 14:30
No.... The sun rose in the West this morning!!!

Oh ******... wrong runway again.

Beech Boy
27th Nov 2003, 14:38
“Rant over.


That about sums up the logic presented TBT.

The system implemented today is a seriously flawed system. Given enough time this will be proven to be so, hopefully not by an avoidable tragic event.

I think that the "rant" started today.

Ace on Base
27th Nov 2003, 19:58
Give the VFR Blokes the time first to work out that they actually need IFR TAC and ERC to make sense of what frequency they should be on before the "RANT" actually starts!!

BTW, According to Jepps, Its perfectly legal for the VFR pilot to fly over AD INT Airport between 2500, and 8500 without a clearance (watch out you jet jocks operating on the same docs as the VFR pilot on jepps) because they have (accidentally) classified that airspace as CLASS E!:confused:

27th Nov 2003, 20:38
We ultimately pay a lot of money to CASA, AsA, and the Dept of Transport for them to do their jobs and to keep us as safe as practical. I say let's trust them. Let them do their jobs unhindered. Mate, the "trust the govt" line will get you nowhere. Are you for real? You pay a lot of money to AsA, because it's now a GOVERNMENT BUSINESS ENTERPRISE. Ask the CEO what his priorities are. Trust them? It's all about money now (as you will find out as the later {secret:hmm: } stages of NAS unfold). AsA is required to return a profit to the govt every year, regardless of revenue, costs or any other normal business measure. If you haven't noticed, CASA and the DOT are managed by like minded individuals intent on assisting that aim. Try having a dissenting opinion in that environment!

"Safety" (your safety), is left to the people who have to deal with these money making missives: Read; pilots, ATCOs etc who ARE CivilAir, AFAP, ALPA etc.
What about the Airports Association, what 'union barrow' are they pushing?

Was that all civil enough for you?
ps I am not even a member of the "brain starved morons in the Flat Earth Society (read AFAP/ALPA/Civil Air)." Nice double standard, Ted.

27th Nov 2003, 21:55
I must say I was suprised that the world had not ended over night.

Great day for flying, very quiet on the radio, even refrained from turning the volume down and listened to what was going on for a change.

28th Nov 2003, 05:03
No cost savings on the Airlines side - Had to do the FULL SID and STAR,

Speed reductions 120nm out,

For my first flight of the day I was +0.3 Flight Time over what I can normally do that flight for.

Can't wait to find out how much more I can save today.

Thanks a bundle Mr Smith you're so cool - looking forward to how you can save even more cash for the travelling public.

Affordable Beer - Mr Smiths Place

28th Nov 2003, 05:47
After months on minimum (or below minimum) staff, training for all this crap we now are back to normal (for those groups who avoided rating carnage.)

It would be a brave team leader indeed who encourages combining the sectors with the fundamental changes that have been made, especially when ALL system changes can deliver bewildering console faults in our marvellous TAAARTS system. You are hearing sectors running separately that normally wouldn't.

Alternatively, maybe people aren't flying?

Alternatively alternatively, it's only the VFR that have been let loose, and they are a tiny fraction of the traffic for my sectors. This just couldn't generate the huge new blocks of silence some are claiming.

Regardless of the above, if your criteria for operating a safe ATS system are that it be able to handle one day of nice weather with everybody having the changes fresh in their mind you are not realistically assessing the long term risk. I bet the main maintenance task last night was wiping nose-prints off windscreens and ATC radar screens... By this time next year (assuming nothing continues to happen) people in the air and on the ground will go back to their crosswords and Picture mags as complacency sets in.

Probably the most effective way to avoid this is for some publicly-minded crews to have a spectacular "oops" or (dare I say it?) bring on another controversial NAS stage to wake everybody up

28th Nov 2003, 05:48
And just what part of NAS 2b caused that Mr Fizzz???

I think you are all froth and bubble :E


Four Seven Eleven
28th Nov 2003, 06:16
Yes, the sun rose in the east……

And unfortunately, this demonstrates the abject lack of anything like a detailed safety analysis in implementing NAS. Just because a system is implemented and does not kill anyone on day one, or two or three hundred, does not mean it is safe. More importantly, it does not mean it is as safe as the system it replaced.

Over the last few weeks, innumerable drivers have been prosecuted for drink driving. Yet, each one of these drivers was able to be pulled up, tested and prosecuted for their offence without being killed. Is drink driving therefore safe? Does the sun rise in the east even with drink drivers on the road?

What NAS and the drink driving analogy demonstrate is that it is possible to incrementally reduce safety without immediate consequences. Anyone with even the most elementary understanding of safety management will understand that system safety can be compromised, and yet the system can remain accident free for some time: until all of the factors required for the accident occur at the right/wrong time.

Accidents will occur. Accidents would have occurred with or without NAS. NAS, has, however, reduced system safety to the extent that a collision is more likely: perhaps increasing the possibility from 1:1 000 000 000 000 to 2:1 000 000 000 000.

For me, anything which reduces air safety is anathema.

Perhaps more importantly, NAS has dramatically increased the potential effects of an accident. Pre-NAS, the ‘worst case’ scenario in terms of a (non-ATC error related) mid-air collision was likely to be a regional turbo-prop colliding with a VFR aircraft. Post-NAS, we have introduced the possibility the ‘worst case’ scenario will involve a heavy jet.

This incremental increase in risk has come at no justifiable benefit to any users, has increased the workload of controllers and pilots.

IT has been asked before. but……… why?

Capt Claret
28th Nov 2003, 06:53
but they'd need a clearance to transit Class C from 36NM to the zone boundary @ 11NM! :=

28th Nov 2003, 16:16
I have come to the sad conclusion that reasoned argument such as yours is wasted here. The proponents of NAS are incapable of digesting it. They will probably respond with the startlingly original retort of "union scaremongering".

If only they would stick to playing flight sims whilst wearing their eppaulettes.

30th Nov 2003, 20:36

All due to the loss of direct tracking on the outbound SID and also a required (BIG) reduction in speed on the return STAR.

I only deal in FACTS. Latest changes = increase in $$$ to operators. E has resulted in less flexibility for the controllers = more delays and hence higher costs to operators. I hope that Airservices is seeing a bigger decrease in costs....

Have a nice life


9th Feb 2004, 13:59
Time Bomb Ted

I guess you're new to aviation, or at least it seems that way from your naive understanding of how safety works.

Perhaps the simplest analogy is that of cleaning your teeth. If you cut back on doing it, or overuse the toothbrush, or use cheap or too little toothpaste....NOTHING WILL HAPPEN RIGHT AWAY. But it will one day. And then it will probably be painful.

This goes for regular maintenance, safety systems, training, risk analysis etc etc. It is not a requirement that there be dead bodies all over the place before you can lay claim to the idea that something was not properly thought through.

And by the way....why not take life rafts off passenger jets too. They weigh a lot and have rarely, if ever, saved a life. Get rid of a lot of stuff I suppose and the sun would still come up.....for a while.

VVS Laxman
26th Nov 2004, 00:02
Well, what a differnce 364 days makes...

26th Nov 2004, 01:15
Holy old thread bumping batman!

Uncommon Sense
26th Nov 2004, 01:40
Yes - the sun did rise in the East - yet bloody again - but at 04:20!

The only difference I saw yesterday was that instead of guessing who the VFR aircraft were and what their intentions were around the inbound high speed aircraft on descent - I knew. Nobody got knocked back a clearance around my neck of the woods - in fact they probably saved time and fuel by getting a direct routing across all the inbound STAR routes instead of avoiding the C Airspace.

If it is costing anbody money at the moment it is the airlnes that relied on Jeppesson to have the plates and maps out on time. They didn't manage to do it - so their is some pain being shared around at there:



FROM 11 250254 TO 12 221600 EST

Uncommon Sense
26th Nov 2004, 05:22
Who is bagging VFR pilots? (What IS a VFR pilot BTW?)

Best check some of the dates on these posts as this thread has been resurrected from the heady days of one year ago exactly - you remember then : John Anderson was yet to campaign for another election and had to appease someone (well maybe more than one as it may yet turn out!)

http://shitsutonka.port5.com/watchtn.jpg (http://fourthtermwatch.********.com)

Uncommon Sense
26th Nov 2004, 06:34
I can understand not having DST in the tropics - it is too hot to do anything after normal working hours if you do.

But there must be a line that can be drawn, say one side of Bundy or HBA or Gympie or somewhere - SEQ needs to be on NSW time - especially near the border.

Whilst first light was 4.20am this morning, my local kookaburra colony like to clear their throats around 3.50am!