Hands off Cyclic

[cl12pv2s]

We've all seen it or even done it. Maybe just once or twice or maybe in most flights as routine. I'm talking about using the knees to steady the cyclic when performing some other task.

What do the members of the list feel about the practice of using the knees to steady the cyclic.

I'm talking from the point of view of a CFI in smaller helicopters and in a training environment.

Is this...:

a) ...an absolute no-no? Anyone how does this should not be flying!
b) ...a practice that should not happen but sometimes is necessary in order to perform certain tasks.
c) ...a skill that should be taught to all student pilots as it may save their life one day.
d) ...not at all a hazard and what's the fuss all about.

I am currently debating this with a fellow CFI as to whether students during intiatial training should be shown this or not.

I argue that as a last resort the knees might be used (stuck throttle situations), however, collective friction should be used rather than the knees both on the ground and in the air (carb heat on/off, comms / navaid selections etc..) and that students do not need to have this demonstrated or encouraged.

Just looking for thoughts.

[rotorboy]

I think it is a bad habbit. Very dangerous in flight in a r22. I used to go back and forth with the other flight instructors about this. It was common for students while on the ground to do this to use hands to friction/un friction controls and to adjust radios espically instead of using the firction. The potentional for bad things even at idle are bad...

(assume frictions on at 75%rrpm) r22

How I tought students from day one was when you were ready at idle to unfriction, hold the cyclic with the right hand , now use left hand to undo cyclic friction. Now place left hand on collective and slide back to friction and undo.

No control has ever been un frictioned without having positive control of it.

You do not have positive contorl with it in between your legs. I used to ask guys, would you do that in flight, uh uh no.. ok why do it on the ground?

If you need to do something that requires both hands while on the groud, roll the dam thing down below 80%, off with george, and friction up.

Procedure dosent change much to a 206 or anything bigger.

I am not saying that I havent put the thing inbetween me legs and stretched or adjusted something...
I have, and there are stiuations that require this, but when teaching, a green guy, I firmly believe show this as an OK procedure is just instilling bad habitss from the get go.

sorry just me rambling on ..

RB

[GLSNightPilot]

I really don't see anything wrong with it. It's one of the first things I learned to do, after the basic stuff. My instructor would hover, take off, do a 180 auto to the lane, pick the TH55 up and hover off to the side, without ever touching the cyclic with his hands, and only touching the collective to put the pitch down & turn the throttle. He did this whenever I thought I was getting good enough, all the while explaining what was going on and why.

Successfully flying a helicopter requires relaxing, and it can be difficult when you're glued to all the controls full time. It's not necessary - you have time, with normal reactions, to get your hands back on the controls and move them if necessary. I vote for either c or d, I wouldn't argue very hard against either.

[WLM]

All well and nice when U have 2 pilots, but quite a handy skill to possess when Single PIC in flight only. The earlier you learn to relax (and keep your awareness of course), the easier it will be later on.
By the way, you might find it useful in the commercial environment to use when flying CTA with a single VHF....on B47 for example
Just my own experience;)

[Whirlygig]

When Whirlygig was learning to fly a Schweizer, my instructor wanted to me to be able to grip the cyclic between my knees whilst on the ground and rotors turning on the basis that it is potentially a flying machine and both hands were needed for completion of checks.

However, my short little leggies are such that my knees couldn't reach the cyclic and I have to use a cushion to push myself forward in the seat so that I can do this.

Whilst in flight though I would hold the cyclic in my left hand with collective friction on and, say, change frequencies with my right hand.

I think it should be taught since it could be useful in an emergency but also stressed that it is not to be used a matter of course.

Cheers

Whirlygig

PS I used to know a guy who's 6'4" and could steer his Triumph Spitfire with his knees round roundabouts whilst rolling a fag ;) ;)

[ShyTorque]

Whirlygig,

That is a very dangerous thing to do in a Triumph Spitfire. It can lead to lung disease. :p

Or have I got this wrong and did you mean he ran over a homosexual?

[rotorboater]

When I am doing power checks before lifting, I have to bring the rotor up to flying rpm with my left hand and do a magneto check with my right, if I didn't hold it with my knees I would have to use another appendage that is in a suitable position and good that I am with it, I can't do that!;)

When flying straight and level, you can trim most of the load out so what's the problem, I am probibly better with my knees than my left hand anyway!

[Whirlygig]

ShyTorque,

yes, your first interpretation was quite correct and I do mean small cigarettes constructed from Rizlas and shag ;)

This "cyclic between the knees" issue - I think it appears to be more of a problem for those of us who are not "poofs or perverts" and fly from the left hand seat :)

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Head Turner]

One question springs to mind.
Where does it say that it is mandatory that the cyclic control be only operated by the pilots right hand?

Second point.
I have always taught the use of knees to hold the cyclic(with the exception of the R22) for performing tasks of short duration that require the right hand to, as explained above, to carry out a function where the left hand is not available, or during flight where two hands are required. There are many situations where using the knees in a safe phase of flight is acceptable and should be part of post PPL training.

Third point.
To damm this action is closing your eyes and mind to the fact that 'training' is preparing a student to safely perform the task of piloting.

Last point.
Have you every used a fire extinguisher in flight?
It takes two hands to initially fire it up. (excuse the pun)

[Shawn Coyle]

More to the point - why don't we have a trim system that holds the cyclic in place?
One that has nice control feel and doesn't seem to really get in the way of things like most trim systems?
Don't have to hold the stick with your knees on the Hughes 500 - it has a trim system.
Having flown lots of different helicopters, I now fly the OH-58C and the UH-1N only with the trim system on, and make students here at NTPS do the same. I find the forces to be OK (but sure could be better).
Of course, if we had automatic trim follow up, that would be bliss.

[Head Turner]

Shawn - some helicopters don't have a trim system B47 for example. Some that have a trim system, that system is pretty crude and needs the fine tuning of the pilots clamped legs. Early 500's need assistance.

[Crashondeck]

It depends on phase of flight and type. Flying a Robbo I would never ever let go of the cyclic - the white knuckles have to get wrapped around something :E . There are times during start up and shut down that a knee grip is ok, but never at flight rpm.

[RDRickster]

I agree concerning the Robbo. Letting go of the cyclic in the R22 is courting death. As long as you have a light grip on the cyclic, you are fine (even with 2 fingers)... but never let go! However, the Enstrom 280FX seems to have a very stable trim system. That was the first time I let go of a cyclic in flight (with the trim in use).

It freaked me out at first and I was ready to pounce on the cyclic at the first moment of change, but it was really quite stable in the cruise. In fact, you could make slight course changes by leaning your body to one side of the helicopter without touching the cyclic!

The only thing I don't like about the trim on the 280FX (it was a newer machine) is that there isn't anyway to automatically set the trim back to neutral. So, on approach, you have to adjust your trim while getting a feel for too much feedback as you reduce speed and change approach angles. There really should be a "return trim to neutral" button or something.

[LGNYC]

In the R44 with hydraulics it seems to me you can let go of the cyclic for a few seconds. I have tried that and it stays steady as rock. Though my hand was 1/2 inch away from the cyclic. I have not yet tried to let it go and really do somthing else (like unfold a map).