BoB vs Bomber Offensive

[covec]

Anyone else think that it's about time that Bomber Command had as "equal" an anniversary as Fighter Command re WWII?

Lot more "multi" types lost their lives than did "single" types...I would respectfully suggest that it took just as much guts to fly over Occupied Europe as it did to climb into a Spit or Hurri for the fifth time over the UK....

PS Tough - but that is and always be my opinion. Live with it, AD boys!

Love

"A Target"

[Jackonicko]

I'm being a bit of a Devil's Advocate here, but the BoB is celebrated because it was a Victory, and one which turned the overall course of the war.

No-one is questioning the bravery and sacrifices made by Bomber Command (55,000 dead speaks for itself) but what they achieved - beyond taking the war to Germany when we could not do so any other way is at least open to question.

Navigation, bombing accuracy, vulnerability to enemy defences, weather, etc. all made it a very unbalanced business, and for the first three and a half years of the war, Bomber Command's effectiveness was very limited. They killed a few cows, damaged the odd house, but night after night after night, aircrew casualties far exceeded enemy casualties on the ground, while damage to militarily or economically significant targets was rare.

Even when the tide began to turn, though it finally managed to kill large numbers of enemy civilians (and that's not a criticism, per se, though it does offend modern sensibilities, thus making commemoration more difficult), Bomber Command proved unable to fulfil Harris' predictions that they could shorten the course of the war, failed to significantly erode German industrial production, and 'lost' the Battle of Berlin.

At best Bomber Command diverted resources from elsewhere to defending the Reich, but had the precious four engined bombers been allocated to Coastal Command, German war production would have been much more severely affected, while using Bomber Command's resources and manpower to mount offensive ops using aircraft like the Whirlwind, Beaufighter and Mosquito could have made Germany's position in occupied Europe much more difficult.

I stress again that I mean no disrespect to the men of Bomber Command, who were lions. But they were led by Donkeys, and I believe that both Harris and Portal did much to prolong the war and to cause unnecessary allied losses.

[smartman]

Jacko

Sorry, cannot agree.

IMHO, you are putting your strategic view of WW2 history at the expense of people who gave their lives in the righteous belief that they were prepared to die for their Country (and lets not get into the modern-day interpretation of that). The point at issue in this thread is whether those in WW2 Bomber Command should be recognisecd for their personal endeavours; whether their efforts culminated in 'victory' or otherwise is irrelevant. Those who died in innocent and moral intent, in the belief that they were doing their stuff for a just cause, are surely worthy of recognition equal to that of the heroes of the BoB.

It seems to be increasingly acceptable in our ever more liberal, green, PC society to 'analytically' degrade the efforts of our dads in WW2: applauding their sacrifice, yet denying their heroism because of the 'supposed' misguided leaders.

Nothing changes - only the scale

[TheNightOwl]

A distinction well made, smartman, it's good to read someone with the fortitude to support the efforts of those who can no longer defend themselves, who include three of my uncles.

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[tharg]

While I hear Jacko's point about the tactical/strategic impact of Bomber Command's role, I must agree strenuously with Smartman and Bubo nocturnalorum - hindsight is 20/20 vision, Jacko.

The choice of date is impossible, not to say immaterial. Any event you try to hang it on - from 617's dam raid to the firestorms of Hamburg/Dresden - will bring accusations of warmongering jingoism from those who do not, and cannot, understand. (Mr Owl, my sympathies and understanding are with you: my own uncle - 50 sqn - was the only survivor of his Lancaster's crew which was intercepted by a Ju-88 over the Black Forest. He survives to this day and, to quote from one of his letters to me "Why did I join and why was I happy to be in bomber command? Well, anyone who lived in Poplar [East London docklands] during the Blitz of 1940 will tell you why...")

Rest assured that, had the results of the air battles of Aug/Sept 1940 gone the other way, and the 'Eagle Day' invasion succeeded, then the 15th September would now be celebrating both fighter and bomber squadrons of the Luftwaffe.

Forget choosing a date on which to hang the heroism of these men. Just go see the BoBMF's Lanc do one of the 'minor' flypasts (Croydon War Memorial or Kenley in these parts). I have watched as her dark, ghostly, shuddering form brings tears to the eyes of those too young even to have heard of, let alone understand, the meaning of the BoB or Bomber Command.

[Jackonicko]

Smartman,

I don't think that we disagree.

Certainly not insofar as "whether those in WW2 Bomber Command should be recognised for their personal endeavours" or whether or not they "are surely worthy of recognition equal to that of the heroes of the BoB."

Bomber Command has its memorials, and rightly so. I thought I made it abundantly clear that I believe that Bomber Command's 55,000 dead (and by extension its survivors) deserve our respect, admiration and thanks. Their courage, sacrifice, AND heroism needs to be properly acknowledged, and though I have huge reservations about it, if the old boys who formed Bomber Command want a statue of Arthur Harris, then I'm glad they got one. I am in no way suggesting that recognition of their contribution should be any less than that accorded to those who fought the Battle of Britain - only that it should be different (just as the way in which we celebrate the Far East PoWs is different to the way in which we remember Dunkirk veterans), and that it should take into account the unique facets of the campaign in which they fought - especially the mind-numbing level of sacrifice and the long years of frustration and failure.

I was perhaps too literal, but the thread was about commemorating a particular anniversary - and it was specifically about commemorating such an anniversary in the way in which we celebrate the Battle of Britain or Trafalgar. To my mind that requires a victory, and preferably a defensive victory rather than an offensive one, and in my view there is no such anniversary which could be suitably celebrated in that manner. If it's really necessary to have a specific date in the calendar, then pick the day on which most Bomber Command aircrew were killed, and call it Bomber Command Remembrance Day.

But a celebratory anniversary is clearly not appropriate, even if we don't choose Hamburg, Nuremberg, Berlin, or Dresden.

Criticising Bomber Command's leaders in no way mitigates against our gratitude to the aircrew who fought and died, any more than it diminishes our BoB celebrations to condemn the shabby way in which Dowding and Keith Park were treated after the Battle of Britain.

I would often hesitate at 'revisionism' in history, and frankly find it distasteful when historians and journos automatically seek to find fault in wartime commanders. But where there was clearly fault, it's equally wrong to gloss over it using some inaccurate but glorious myth. I had cause to do some research on Bomber Command's war a couple of years ago, and pored over the Bomber Command losses, day by day, while comparing these with the German records, which detailed exactly where the bombs fell, and exactly what damage they did. By the end of my research I was frankly angry at the way in which these brave men's lives had been thrown away for such a long time, and to so little effect. It completely changed my perception of the bomber war, but not of those who took part.

[BEagle]

Of the sqns on which I 've served, during their wartime incarnations the 2 bomber sqns (35 and 101) lost vastly more people than did the fighter squadron (56F). But Sep 15 is BoB day and there's no Bomber Command remembrance day - which many feel is wrong.

However, when you learn of the appalling loss rates after D-day suffered by thesingle seat fighter bombers of the tactical air forces in France and the Low Countries, the question becomes not one of a specific Bomber Command remembrance, but of an Aircrew Commemoration Day.

[RubiC Cube]

Jacko,

Unfortunately Bomber Harris and his commanders didn't have the luxury of poring over the German records on a daily basis. Put yourself back to those times and ask what the alternative was?

[hairyclameater]

I think the figure of 55,000 bomber crew dead is due to the fact that bombers had a lot more crew than Spits, Hurris etc etc.!Plus there were many many more bombers from 1943 onwards than there were fighters in 1940 being lost.

BoB day is a purely British commemoration- the Royal Air Force alone stood against the might of the Luftwaffe.It altered the course of the entire war.

Bomber Command was joined by the mighty USAAF during its onslaught and as has been said - the tide had turned DUE to the exploits of fighter command afew years earlier.

An aircrew commemoration day here here - thats what we want!
But separate to BoB day

[soddim]

Surely we already have a day to remember those killed in the war - all of them in all of the wars are remembered on rememberance day.

It is fitting that we celebrate the B of B on a separate occasion because it was a unique battle and victory.

I do not in any way wish to minimise the bravery of those bomber crews who lost their lives - in fact the bravest guys I have met in my view are the tail gunners. They had little say in their destiny and little hope when things went pear-shaped. I would much rather have been a Spit or Hurri pilot and had some influence over events.

[FEBA]

Covec
This is a noble request which has encouraged some fine responses.
From my own perspective your request sounds reasonable but then there are so many battles that deserve individual remembrance that if we honoured them all, the silence would last a year. To try and mark each battle with a unique ceremony could end up achieving the opposite of that intended, in short national remembrance fatigue could set in.
Each death whether on the battle field at sea or in the air is worthy of the eternal gratitude of the nation and I think we do a pretty good job of that on the 11th November. I would advocate a national holiday on the 11th, or the nearest week day to it. What do you think?
Jacko
You're right to point out the high, possibly futile cost in terms of lives wasted on bombing operations. However if you really want to depress yourself with military futility, then pick up any book on the first world war.
I live in bomber country and I take my two boys to visit these old airfields, Coleby Grange, Metheringham, Swinderby, Skellingthorpe, Woodhall Spa, Woolfox Lodge. At Metheringham the air is gravid with history, so much so that you can reach out and touch it. 57 Lancaster bombers of 106 Sqn took off from there and failed to return. Being there saddens me greatly, we dont talk a lot as we drive up the old runway.

I'm not convinced that we ought to single out military campaigns and devote to them an annual ceremony. Each loss of life in the defence of our country would be better honoured collectively. Perhaps a public holiday is a more fitting tribute.

FEBA

[covec]

FEBA

Good point re 11th November.

I posted the subject because I was genuinely curious about why the (relative) "dearth" of Thanksgiving for Bomber Command's efforts.

Perhaps I should also be more loyal by asking about the Kipper fleet seeing as I am a current Kipper flyer!

An Aircrew Commemoration Day sounds good....

Regards

[Jackonicko]

Rubic,

What should Harris have done?

He should have listened to many of those giving him advice at the time, especially those with current operational experience. His hostility to pinpoint bombing against strategically important targets nearly prevented some of Bomber Command's greatest successes (Peenemunde, the tactical bombing campaign in support of Overlord, the Dams raid, etc.) while his own area bombing campaign cost numerous lives while achieving so very little.

He should have realised that not every target which was not an enemy city's residential area was an irrelevant 'panacea target'.

He should not have fought so hard to minimise the resources given to No.2 Group, 2ATAF and Coastal Command.

He should have paid more heed to getting bombs on target, and to getting his aircrew home safely.

He should perhaps have shown more interest in causing actual damage to the German war machine, and should have expended rather less energy in pursuing the 'moral effect' of bombing. The East End showed that heavy bombing was unlikely to cause the kind of total collapse in civilian morale which he professed to expect.

Other than that, he was a roaring success!

[BEagle]

FEBA - is there much now left of Skellingthorpe? When I was at sunny Scampton in 1977, it was just about to be covered with houses. I understand that it had a ghost Lancaster crew still there; they crashed and died in the war with the RT stuck on transmit much to the horror of the people in Flying Control who could do nothing to help.

Back in 1977 there were still a few old boys around in the local pubs who'd give us an insight as to what as it like when "All them fields were covered with Lancs" some 35 years earlier. Probably all now gone, sadly.

So many famous aerodromes in Bomber County - or 'RAF Lincolnshire' as we called it then. Only Barkston Heath Coningsby, Cranwell, Kirmington (Two Jags International Airport), Scampton, Waddington and Wickenby now remain. Binbrook, Fulbeck, Manby, North Coates, Strubby, Sturgate, Swinderby and Woodhall Spa were still in some use when I joined - plus many more in neighbouring counties.

I think I once worked out that over 40 UK ex-RAF aerodromes had closed since I joined in 1968. I was going to read out the list at my Dining Out, but the stn on which I'd served for 20 years never gave me one, something else I wouldn't have believed when I joined.....

So make the most of such sites of aeronautical history before they disappear for ever!

[SPIT]

Why don't the RAF rename the BoB Flight into the RAF Memorial Flight?? Afterall their aircraft do represent FIGHTER/BOMBER and TRANSPORT Commands.The only Mag?Command Not represented would be Coastal Command which I am sure they could remedy.:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Blacksheep]

Bomber Command has its remembrance day. 11 November, the same as everyone else.

What annoys me is that the one memorial that best represents the sacrifice of those who died in the bomber campaign is now operated by 'The Battle of Britain Memorial Flight' That is a most inappropriate name. When those of us who volunteered our services and free time at Waddington back in the sixties to ensure that PA 474 continued to fly, it wasn't the BoB that we wished to commemorate, it was the memory of the bomber crew members who never came back. Its well past the time that a memorial flight operating Hurricanes, Spitfires, a Lancaster and a Dakota is more appropriately named 'The Royal Air Force Memorial Flight' thereby serving to commemorate the sacrifices of everyone who died while wearing the light blue uniform.

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[FEBA]

BEagle
Your right, Skellingthorpe airfield has disappeared forever. I wonder how many people, who live there now realise as they tend their gardens and incinerate burgers and sauages on the BBQ, quite what went on beneath their feet sixty years ago. Can they hear the mess piano ringing out through the night sky or the merlin engines moan for those never to return. The school on the estate is named after F/O Manser VC.
I found this on the web, probably a typical night for some:

Thank your lucky stars..."
Phillip Massey, 1941
Navigator 61 Squadron
Published with permission from Phillip Massey's wife and son.

Copyright Phillip Massey, 1941

Philip Massey (751039) was a navigator in Bomber command from the beginning to the end of the war and whilst serving with 61 Squadron in 1941 he flew from Hemswell which is listed, and from North Luffenham which is not. It is in what was the original county of Rutland. He also flew whilst in 180 squadron, in Mitchells with the 2 TAF. He passed away on Christmas Day 1999.

After his death his wife Adele Massey found his log book and a letter which he had written to her 09/08/41 on the same day as he returned from a raid on Kiel. Adele wrote out the letter, less the more personal parts, and gave it to her son....



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

North Luffenham. 09.08.41

You can thank your lucky stars you’re not a widow at this moment! I went to Kiel last night, and oh boy! What a night it was. Never before has death been so terrifyingly close to me since war began.

To start with it was a lovely trip over 410 miles of sea to the coast of Denmark with pure white cloud below and a full moon giving the effect of broad daylight shining on us from above. A perfect fighters dream night. We saw about six other Hampdens and a couple of Whitleys going over. For once my navigation was almost perfect. I got a glorious landfall just north of Sylt on the Danish coast, and as we were flying towards Kiel across the Baltic we could see trails of condensation from Jerry night fighters criss crossing above us. I could see fires and ack ack at Kiel 50 miles before we got there. We saw some of the fighters but they did not appear to see us. Anyway they didn’t attack and we went in a bit east of Kiel – boy it was a glorious night and I could see the coast and inland lakes perfectly in the moonlight so we went in behind the A.A. and searchlights at 12,000 feet. It was nearly two o’clock in the morning as we approached the target – about four miles from the harbour – Street (pilot) cut the engines and started to glide noiselessly in through the cones of searchlight beams towards the ship building yards that I’d picked out. Already there were two large fires raging there. We had intended bombing from 10,000 feet but it took us a bit longer than expected to glide in and consequently we lost more height than we liked doing. About a mile from the target Street (pilot) had to give a short burst of engine to keep our speed up – and ten searchlights came straight on to us from God knows where, temporally blinding us. Tracer started pouring towards us, but I had to keep on an even course to hit the target with my bombs. I let them go in the middle of the ship building yards from 8,000 feet! Immediately they had gone the A.A. bursting intensified close to the tail, but I still had two photos’ to take.

We couldn’t wait to take the second one properly as the W/op. said the ‘****’ was right round our tail and we were full in at least six searchlights – Street (pilot) put the nose down and opened up the engines again – God! I’ve never seen anything like it. A plane straight in front of us went straight down and exploded on the ground, and then another was hit and blew up in mid air. After that the Huns focused all their attention on us. We couldn’t get out of the deathly searchlight beams and as we dived and twisted this way and that I could see stream after stream of shells racing towards us, passing six inches below then ? inches above my cockpit. A pan of ammunition was blown off the rack behind me as a shell burst horribly close beneath us and the pan hit me on the head and bounced onto the bombsight in front. We were screaming down at 300 m.p.h. as I yelled to Street to turn now left now right to try to dodge the stuff as it came up. Suddenly, as one lot came straight for the nose of the kite – Street pulled up and we skipped over the top of it missing it by a few feet. I fell off my seat on to the floor of the kite. I fought madly to regain my balance and help the pilot to get away out to sea and only then did I wonder where my ‘chute was. It would have been no use however for as I glanced at the altimeter it showed zero feet. I thought of you and prayed like hell. My mouth had gone so dry that my chewing gum was stuck to the roof of my mouth and I couldn’t move it. At fifty feet we hurtled over the coast and out to sea. I was just wondering how the hell we had got away alive when Street yelled in muffled voice ‘Navigator, I’ve been hit’. I nearly died! I could imagine myself collecting the DFM for flying the kite back to England! We could all hear old Street panting and blowing over the intercom, so I asked him if he wanted me to come and take over. He said he thought that he would be alright though he couldn’t feel his left hand at all.

I worked out a safe course for us to steer and told him I’d come and patch his hand as soon as he thought it wise for me to stop watching for fighters. They were near us all the time. Then, after a while, he called again and said he thought his hand was OK. The glove was cut open and his hand was scratched but the shock had numbed the whole of his arm. As soon as we were in comparative safety I went up behind him, dropped his armour plating and gave him some hot coffee. He’d got a bit of frostbite! I was sweating cobs!

It must have been at about 3 a.m. when we saw the Danish coast and cruised steadily homewards at about 1,500 feet with the moon shining eerily on the water and the clouds hiding us from the fighters above. We came in just north of Skegness and landed safely at our own aerodrome at five past six this morning. You bet we did some line shooting! Not many people have flown across Kiel through such intense flack and searchlights – and a balloon barrage too, at 50 feet and lived to tell the tale. Our squadron lost two machines and a third had its port engine shot away but they got back on one to the English coast and forced landed successfully on the beach just as the other engine packed up – and that’s what I get paid 12/6d a day for!