New mobile phone regulations

[whosyerdaddy]

I understand using a non-handsfree mobile while driving is about to become an offence.
Will it apply while you are flying?

[mad_jock]

Don't be a prat.

Mobile phones should be carried off. And only used in the event of an emergency ie. radio failure

[inaspin]

But if you want to be a prat, there is a company selling adaptors to allow your headset to be connected to your mobile phone. Then you can make calls while flying. I personally prefer to escape the telephone when flying, but take one with me just in case of emergency (kept switched off until needed ofcourse)

[DB6]

What are you going to say? 'HALLO? I'M IN A PLANE! I CAN'T HEAR A THING YOU'RE SAYING 'COS THE ENGINE'S TOO LOUD! BYE!'?

[Cusco]

I understood it was already illegal to use a mobile phone from the air. (Except in an emergency of course)

Anyway the mobile phone providers will soon identify you as your phone will switch shed loads of relays all around the area you're flying over, and make it pretty obvious who's causing the congestion.

Safe (phone-free) Flying

Cusco.

[Negative 'G']

I was under the impression that this 'rule' only applied to commercial types not GA ?

Neg G :D

[vintage ATCO]

This is a wind up, right?

See AIC 62/1999 (Pink 196)


VA

[Monocock]

Come on Mad_Jock, that was slightly harsh.

whosyerdaddy didn't know and he may well be new to flying.

I think a mild apology might be in order:ugh:

[Flying Spice]

Thats harsh...

You don't want to put students off posting now do you???:confused:

[Fly Stimulator]

whosyerdaddy didn't know and he may well be new to flying. But on the other hand, he may not be. (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3368) :rolleyes:

[greatorex]

whosyerdaddy (or is it 'SM'?),

If it's a serious question then have a look at This (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2003_03.PDF)

If not, then clip clop clip clop aaaaaaaarrrrrrggghhhhhhhh it's a troll!!!!! :D ;) :D ;)

[drauk]

Don't knock it till you've tried it. With the appropriate headset adapter (i.e. wiring the phone in to the intercom) you can hear and be heard perfectly well. Hardly surprsing - your radio works pretty well like that right?

As for the interference with instruments, what if you aren't using any? Nobody is saying it messes with the pitot static instruments, right? And if you're flying in VMC?

I've heard the stuff about the cellular operators, but a guy that I know regularly uses his O2 phone from his microlight without problems in that respect. Not saying that is legal, just that it can be done.

As for whosyerdaddy I am assuming this is a joke.

[Keef]

In any aircraft with nav instruments, it's not only illegal but :mad: dangerous.

In the USA, cellphone sites are constructed to work with airborne phones (it's to do with the antenna configuration) and only a few sites look upwards.

In the UK, at very low level, you might get away with it. Above 1000 feet or so, the older cellsites would get very confused because several sites would be accessed at once. The network operator would soon find out whose phone was doing it, and could "lock out" that phone if so inclined.

Don't do it.

[WestWind1950]

Cusco has it right... it causes congestion on the relay stations because too many stations receive the signal at once... and don't comment that on a mountain it does the same... on a mountain you are not moving! A breakdown of the mobile phone system can be the result, the company traces the phone that caused it and can/will shut down your phone! So it's not only because of disturbance to your instruments (gliders and balloonist like to use that arguement...).

So turn the thing off while in the air! Wait until the system is perfected and it's made legal!

Westy

[Timothy]

What I find amazing is that "everybody knows" that it's going to be illegal in cars from December, because it is so dangerous (arguably as dangerous as drunk driving) yet you still see loads of people doing it (and swerving all over the road, going excessively slowly, going onto roundabouts without noticing and then jamming their brakes on) as if they are determined to be as dangerous as possible for as long as possible right up to the wire.

Roll'em into Court, I say.


W

[Evo]

whosyerdaddy didn't know and he may well be new to flying.

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Troller.jpg

[whosyerdaddy]

Curses! Rumbled!:*

Hope you guys & gals didn't mind too much:O

Got you talking though 'bout the new car legislation which is about as clear as mud.

I have been told I cant use a bluetooth headset in the car by one shop and I can by another.

Plus I saw one prat doing an illegal right turn this morning while talking on his batphone.

Now that's dangerous.

See ya!:D

[Mark139]

The GSM network doesn't mind if your phone can "see" more than one basestation.

The phone will listen to them all one at a time, then talk to the loudest one. You will only ever be "connected" to one channel of one cell at any time.

When it's time to switch over the network will tell the phone & base station when.

Amazingly all this works in the blink of an eye and with millions of users, some of who are travelling very fast - on trains of course :)

Cheers

[Slow-Rider]

I am still confused as to why people would take switched on mobile phones with them when they fly anyway.

Carrying a phone for emergencies, is very sensible. It certainly doesn't need to be switched on unless there is an emergency.

If people are talking about taking mobiles flying with them so that they can take/make calls I think that is very wrong, whether it's legal or not.

Flying is not the time to make phone calls it is the time to exercise good airmanship which involves focus and LOOKOUT!

Rant over :D

[drauk]

Slow-Rider, have you never flown with a passenger?

Has anybody met someone who has actually been banned from a network for "messing up the network" by using their phone in the air? As Mark139 says, who probably knows much more about it than I do, surely the network must be able to handle a phone being in communication with more than one base station at once, otherwise how would contiguous coverage work? I mean, if you're driving up the M1, heck if you're walking down Oxford Street, at some point you go from cell A to cell B and at the point of changeover you MUST be in range of both cell relays, right?

[Genghis the Engineer]

It is disconcerning when the phone you forgot was in your pocket goes off as you turn finals - I won't do that again :sad: They do usually interfere with the intercom even if they don't ring.

On an allied point, accepting that it is illegal, for various reasons, some of them good, not to use a mobile whilst flying - what about mountains.

I've on occasion used my mobile whilst on top of a mountain, Snowdon for example. The signal is excellent, I'm at over 3000 ft, and it's probably latching on (or trying to) to just about every Vodaphone cell in North Wales. Does that create a problem for the law or the cellphone system?

G

[englishal]

Where does it specifically say its illegal? In the US it is only illegal when flying IFR, if VFR then its not.

Most new funky headsets have mobile phone inputs to them to allow this, seems a good idea in my book. As far as RF interference goes, what about an IPAQ with moving map software linked to a Bluetooth GPS stuck to the windscreen?

EA

[Mike Cross]

mmmm...

Shuttleworth require PPR so I rang up the day before.
"You need to call on the day" I was told

Fair enough I thought. So the next day, shortly after 09:00 I rang up for my PPR. No answer. Tried again and again up to about 09:45 still no answer.

They don't answer the phone until 10:00 which is a bit of a bummer in these short winter days if you have a slow aeroplane like me!:(

Captain Yossarian must have flown a Luscombe.

As it was I called them while airborne just north of Newbury and got my PPR (No I wasn't PIC at the time;) )

Mike

[flyingfemme]

If it's switched on you can receive SMS messages - like the ones I sometimes send to ferry pilots with up-to-date wx at the destination. or handling/hotel details

[IO540]

drauk

The stuff about messing up the network is nonsense. The system can handle a phone at a high altitude or high speed (they work on "mountains" and in fast cars/trains). The problem is bad coverage at altitude because the towers have a short range and are optimised for ground-based phones; the radiation pattern does not go "up" very much. So it works OK for text messages if fairly low, say below 4000ft, but conversations are get cut off very easily. It can be fun to be flying with a GPS-coupled autopilot over France or Spain while doing text messages...

I have an American gadget called Safety Cell, cost about £50, into which you can plug a Nokia phone and use it with the headset. I don't do it personally but passengers have used it. I have used it on the ground and it works extremely well.

There should be a market for someone to do weather or ATIS data via SMS. One can get a lot in 160 or so bytes. a GSM PDA would be ideal for the display. The only problem is the cost of SMS; perhaps with GPRS it costs a lot less per byte. Such a thing would be frowned on by the pipe and slippers brigade (naturally) but it would certainly work well enough.

[drauk]

IO540, I thought as much. Why on earth do people keep spreading such misinformation I wonder?

Anyway, as for receiving the weather by SMS, if you have a WAP phone you should try it. I've used various GPRS devices on the ground before a flight (a phone, a Blackberry, a PDA) to get weather from avbrief this way and it works really well - both TAF and METAR are available and if you bookmark your favourite airports you can get an update with a few clicks. Just remember to refresh and check the update time each time, lest your device caches the page.

[Keef]

I'm with WC 110% about motorists using their cellphones - expleted deleted dangerous! Nearly got clobbered by one last night, too intent on his phone call to bother to stop at the roundabout.

The thing about accessing multiple cellsites ... the system is constructed with the local terrain and road networks etc in mind. It isn't designed to cope with phones up in the sky.

There aren't many cellsites round Snowdon (I know, cos I live up there for part of the year: coverage is dire) so trying to use your phone on the top won't upset the system much.

In London, there are sites every few hundred yards, with very short range. No problem. Out in the country, the sites are further apart - but still they expect you to be at ground level, where your radio horizon is typically 3 to 5 miles - what's the "swept area" of that? Go up to 3000 feet and your radio horizon is over 70 miles. Now what's the "swept area"? How many more cellsites could you be accessing at the same time?

The "fix" is to have antennas that point downwards to limit the range. They don't pick up aircraft-borne phones - which means the phone gets even more insistent trying to connect to a base. But not all sites are like that.

The law says "Don't do it". The law doesn't seem to be so stupid, does it?

[englishal]

The law says "Don't do it".
Does it though? I am still waiting to be pointed to the specific place which says its illegal.

:D

[mad_jock]

I used to work for ericsson in the R&D base for europe for the G3 and AXE10 exchanges.

The cell switching dosn't really annoy the network. If anything is likely to happen the MSC (exchange) will just ignore the signal if multiple BSC (base transmitter) are trying to tell it to log the phone to them in the HAL (computer which tells the telephone exchange which BSC the mobile is booked in with).

Of course other peoples hardware might not be so robust.

What you will find though is over most of the highlands due to the way they have fiddeled with the timing on the BSC the range will be quite large which is why transatlantic flights can make phone calls when they reach scotland.

I agree in you average minimum spek VFR machine its not going to make any difference apart from the vibra alarm causing destraction.

But is it illegal don't know, is it bad airmanship to have something which distracts you from the job at hand yes.

MJ

[Mark139]

I also used to work for Ericsson :) I worked on the software for GSM base stations.

The phone can only ever talk to one base station at a time as it has only one transmitter. The network will tell the phone to change to a different base station as an when is needed.

Interference with electronics is a real potential problem especially with domestic stuff. Just sit a phone next to a hifi and you can here it report-in every now and then.

The distance limitation of GSM is quite interesting as it's not caused by radio range but by the fact that the system transmits digits. Once you get far enough away the digits arrive too late to be in sync with the system.

I still find it very impressive that it all works, especially when doing 140mph on a train.

Sorry, this has kind of branched off subject.

mobiles in planes or cars is a bad idea I think.

Cheers

[englishal]

especially when doing 140mph on a train
Can't be in England then :D

[greatorex]

Does it though? I am still waiting to be pointed to the specific place which says its illegal
Have a look Here (http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/default.asp?page=1347)
'The use of mobile phones on board aircraft is prohibited while the aircraft's engines are running.'
Cheers,

G

[montster]

If I remember my Air Law correctly, use of a mobile phone in an aircraft contravenes the Mobile Telephony law or whatever it's called. This applies to passengers as well as pilots. It's in the Trevor Thom book anyway.

[dmjw01]

Those who say it doesn't matter to the network are incorrect - it does matter, at least in theory.

Yes, you're quite correct in saying that a phone is only "connected" to one base station at a time under normal circumstances. With GSM, the way this is achieved (amongst other things) is by using a frequency that is specific to the base station. Unfortunately, frequencies have to be re-used on other base stations because there simply aren't enough frequencies to allow a unique frequency to be allocated to each base station across a large network.

Network designers go to great lengths to ensure that base stations sharing the same frequency are far enough apart that interference won't happen. Terrain is a major part of this calculation - for example, hills will block a line of sight and hence allow frequencies to be duplicated on either side of the hill. Network designers typically use specialised software to assist in allocating frequencies when the network is being designed - I used to be involved in the design and development of this kind of software.

When allocating frequencies to base stations, it is usually assumed that the person using the handset is at or near ground level. If you're up at 2000 feet, your phone will have a line of sight with several base stations that the network designer didn't anticipate when (s)he allocated the frequencies. So although your phone thinks it's talking to just one base station, its transmissions could unavoidably be received by at least one other base station that has the same frequency - and this will cause interference on those base stations. This interference could cause data loss to users on the other base station, and ultimately may cause calls to be dropped.

As Keef (or somebody) said, in highly built-up areas the network is designed with a large number of base stations, each of which covers a very small area because the traffic density is high. Therefore, frequencies will be re-used across a much smaller area. So the chances of interference caused by someone in an aircraft would be much higher.

[IO540]

greatorex

The reference you gave is among the huge mountain of stuff in the "advisory" category. This material is on the CAA website, in their safety-sense leaflets, in the aviation rags, etc, but it is not "law". One could equally dig up something prohibiting the use of a GPS. The +200ft increase in the DH/MDH for an IMC Rated pilot is in the same category, though not a lot of people know that.

I am not saying the use of a mobile phone when airborne is a good idea. But there is no law which says you can't. Unless it is prohibited in the ANO, the CAA would not be able to prosecute you if you merely said you used a phone while in the air. Obviously one would look a right pra** if one owned up to it after an incident, but that's true for a huge number of careless actions which are not in themselves illegal.

Maybe there is a regulation somewhere else, perhaps in the Wireless Telegraphy Act, which prohibits the airborne use of a phone...

[greatorex]

Agreed, it is somewhat of a grey area, however, the CAA is clear about the fact it does have a blanket ban on the use of Mobile Telephones on board a/c. Whether it's 'officially' law or not - I don't know - maybe Flying Lawyer could clarify? BUT, let's face it, as you said, if a pilot has a prang because they were 'on the phone'. . . . well, I wouldn't fancy their chances with those nice legal chaps and chapesses down at the CAA. . . . :eek: :ouch: :eek: :ouch:

I do wonder, however, if it's covered by 15.5 of the ANO?

All radio and radio navigation equipment installed in an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom or carried on such an aircraft for use in connection with the aircraft (whether or not in compliance with this Order or any regulations made thereunder) shall be of a type approved by the CAA . . . .

Again, one for the legal boffs. . . I'm just a thick pilot. . . but you never know. . . :confused: ;) :confused: ;)

Cheers,

G

[mad_jock]

:D Did you ever visit Aachen? I was the scottish bloke who ran the helpdesk.

Once some pervert showed me the map of all the signals involved in making a mobile to mobile call. Looked like something out the war games film.


MJ