Low Cost SCUM!

[BankAngle50]

First things first! “Profit before People!” Perhaps you may which to read Chomsky???

These LCC's or the more oxymoronic term “value added carriers” are here to stay in the interim; so those of use in the industry will have to ride it out until the public wake up.

It amases me how slogans such as “keeping the air fare” get thrown so boldly around in advertising campaigns, yet I would pay more on VB than I used to pay on a full service QF/AN sector before I had the right to Staff travel. Point in case, I looked on VB for a fare BNE-PER return departing one month from now and returning one month later (hardly last minute) and to my surprise the best deal was in the order of AUD $700! Well before AN had all its assets stolen by ANZ, I flew on them for AUD $550 full fare and full service, same sector. I love the so call $50 fares they quote from SYD-MEL; but you try and get one. To cut a long whine short; what I am advocating is, that on average VB fares are creeping back to what AN used to charge and yet you get a sh1ty seat, no service, no points, no nothing. Hence; not only have us poor folks in the industry had our pants taken down with respect to conditions, but I suggest that the fare paying public are as well!!! I guess they (the public) will eventually wake up to these surreptitious marketing campaigns that VB and ilk currently running and demand value once again.

If one is to look at the US, we see a whole heap of LCC’s and the so called “legacy” carries, the AA, UA (premium airlines) etc. I cannot see the value as a consumer flying on Song (LCC) when I can buy the same priced ticket on AA or even the parent Delta and get full service.

Who are these people that get the $1 fares. Do they really exist??? I have found fares cheaper on AA than I can find on JetBlue or Song, so who are the morons supporting these companies??? I guess the public will wake up in time. Hey, I must sound like a LCC basher—well im not (please believe me), but I cannot see where the real long term saving to the consumer lies. Sure, the “legacy” carriers used to have folks “pants down” if you walked to the counter and wanted a ticket to SYD last minute. I guess they got away with it because of the duopoly system we had here in Oz (QF,AN) and needed in the old days.

What I find most disturbing is the general degradation of conditions for all employees in the industry because of LCCs’. How hypocritical is it of a certain 89’ner to bring the worst pay and conditions that RPT pilots have ever experienced in this country back from “sleezy Jet????” I postulate that the only way LCCs can make money over “legacy” carriers is to cut employee conditions. This is if we are to believe that they do indeed maintain the same standard of safety and training as the majors. Yeah right!! How many AOC warning have VB had from CASA! Maybe they also have less ass wipes in management, which would save them heaps as well.

What we see though in general is management scum and a few sell out pilots making all the real $$$ and screwing everybody else over, whether they realize it or not. Take RyanAir for eg. They are now making Hostie’s pay 3000 Euros for a training course to earn crap money at the end. How did our industry slide into such a disgraceful state?? Guys that have done it tough in GA or Regional are having to front up to $40K Aussie for type ratings (Pacific Blue) and to only earn about 40K less tax pa. Is this insanity??? The kid I met working in my new housing complex earned 60K last year as a laborer and he dropped out of year 11. Can somebody wake me for this horrible dream?? Oh be comforted by the fact that the VB CEO made AUD$ 15 000 000.00 last year.

We as pilots are our worst enemies though! Reading treads you constantly see posts where people crap on each other. You see the older guys castigating those young fools who pay for type ratings to joing sh1ty LCCs such as VB. Then the retorts from the young guy doing it hard in GA/regional who wants that job on the 73 to get out of that crap. Surely who can blame those who pay the $30-40K for the B73 type rating and the hope of a better job. Its not their fault they are pressed into this corner. Lets stop ripping each other apart! Instead your focus should be on the real criminals, such as that fat bastard EX AN CEO in Auckland. $4,000,000 pa, plus a performance for thieving and bankrupting one of “OUR” airlines right from under our noses. These are the real villains, eroding the pay and conditions for all.

I guess I will be slammed by heaps off you for my statements. Well I can only say that I am frustrated how the losers in the Gieves and Hawkes suits are making a fortune at the expense of everybody else.

Well “he came into Egypt a pharaoh who did not know” Translation for the rocket scientists’; the rich have been sticking it to the poor since the beginning of time.”

PS. if I have made any grammatical or spelling errors, than those whom wish to correct me may save your reply’s and keep your palliative clichés to yourself!

[AIRWAY]

One of the Portuguese Airlines "Air Luxor", No no no it's not from Egypt, it's from Portugal, are introducing a system called "Light" Air Luxor Light... In which 10% of the aircraft capacity goes to those so called Light prices, for example a Lisbon-London ( LGW ) costs an amazing 29Euros ( Airport taxes not included and only one way fare, in small prints ), And no Air Luxor is not a Low Coast Airline.

They are also introducing another domestic system in which you buy a "monthly pass" and you can fly anytime you want within Portugal for only 200Euros a month.

Now, i dont understand how can they make any money if costs will be superior than profits.

:confused:

[flyin' fuhh...]

"If one is to look at the US, we see a whole heap of LCC’s and the so called “legacy” carries, the AA, UA (premium airlines) etc. I cannot see the value as a consumer flying on Song (LCC) when I can buy the same priced ticket on AA or even the parent Delta and get full service. "

Full service?!!! Do you consider Coke n' peanuts to be full service on a transcon flight?

[Wirraway]

Bankangle 50

Using todays date a month from now works out for BNE-PER return:

DJ

12th Dec BNE-PER = $365
12th Jan PER-BNE = $315

Total = $680


QF Red e-deal

12th Dec BNE-PER = $371
12th Jan PER-BNE = $371

Total =742

This is only $62 saving by flying DJ for one or $124 if your
missus is travelling with you, but what was the same fares
when there were only Ansett and Qantas flying a couple of
years ago? especially your return leg which is in school holidays.

For a family of 4 the above saving is probably worth it. If you
flew the BNE-PER on the 10th Dec the fare on DJ is only $275.

As for the specials, for DJs 1st birthday I got 2 $1 fares BNE-DRW
& BNE-CNS for Mrs Wirraway and myself, although it took 3hrs
trying to get them.

Wirraway

[druglord]

song jetblue airtran etc,
the service on them isn't any better or worse than the mainlines. I've never flown Jetblue, but apparently the service is superb. Airtran service was good. Southwest I suppose is a little spartan, but the low costs over here are low-cost because they pay their pilots significantly less, with exception to Song. The public hears 'low-cost' and they forget about price hunting. Mainlines are paying their pilots $90-$100 an hour more while the low costs rake in the revenue. If the mainlines weren't all screwing their pilots perhaps they'd be willing to work for less too.

[yellow rocket]

To cut a long whine short; what I am advocating is, that on average VB fares are creeping back to what AN used to charge and yet you get a sh1ty seat, no service, no points, no nothing.

Translation: You get what you pay for.

So to use your own methodology today's DJ fare of $700 minus yesterday's Ansett fare of $550 means you owe Ansett staff $150.

Why was Ansett so 'cheap'? Because it ran at a loss, ripping off shareholders and employee entitlements so that people like you got a cheap fare. You can join the list of debtors together with Sir Selwyn Cushing, and his Singaporean cronies, together with Qwanny's Vaucluse sugar daddies.

Put your money where your mouth is - cough up.

[FLYMATE]

Look at NOW airlines in the UK, 2nd generation, low cost. They are doing things differently... Leather seats, enhanced service and valued passenger service, and hey, everyone on the same flight pays the same, no exceptions...

http://www.now-airlines.com

[Hugh Jarse]

Low cost does not mean low cost to the travelling public.

It means low (operating) costs to the company.:E

[Hot_Section]

I think LWA is a better abbreviation for these airlines - LOW WAGE AIRLINES

[Sonny Hammond]

Real message in all this.....b*gger being an employee...be a shareholder, thats who the management really values. After there own bonus scheme that is.....

[Buster Hyman]

...But what do you really think of them?

[smile]

so........ Don't fly on any low cost airlines!!!!

There, your problem is solved!!!!

[FBD]

"Full service?!!! Do you consider Coke n' peanuts to be full service on a transcon flight?"

US$5 with AA for a can of beer on a flight from London to Boston...and to top it off no ff points allowed to be earned towards my Qantas membership.

Oh and thanks AA for not informing me that my flight from Boston to Vegas via St Louis (all one flight number and about the same journey time as Lon - NY) will only involve being given 2 packs of pretzels and a can of coke...not even a sandwich.

Same goes for Aer Lingus...tight tight tight tight, tighter than Ryanair but claim to be full-service but again no points for my Qantas membership- stick your warm glass of oj and no food because I'll get a hot breaky on BMI for the same price!

I'd prefer to fly full service over lcc but all the above makes me question what agenda some airlines have in regards to customer loyalty...choose your alliance partners carefully Qantas because I don't appreciate the tight arse attitude from full service carriers.

What are your Australian plans Star Alliance? I can't wait to jump back on board!

[BankAngle50]

FBD----When I first started reading your post I couldn’t help thinking “wow what a OneWorld Basher this guy is.” You confirmed my initial thoughts with your closing statements. Now before you start on me as a OneWorld supporter, I would like to openly state I am a Star supporter via KrisWorld; which thankfully I had all my miles on AN accredited to SQ via Star.

You state that you couldn’t credit miles on AA or The Cunning Lingus (EI) ! Hummmm!!!! Can I suggest you are trying to bull-sh1t everybody in this industry and embassy yourself, when you claim that miles earned on a OneWorld Alliance sector (AA and EI) could not be credited to your QF frequent flyer account!!! Whilst I predominantly travel Star alliance, I do have a QF frequent flyer account as well (when Co-bus tickets on AA/QF are not avail). I rang QF frequent flyer and asked them about the sectors on AA and EI that you quoted and whether miles under OneWorld are available on my QF account. “Absolutely sir, as these are OneWorld sectors.” The only exception was if you are using a heavily discounted ticket you may get 80% or 50% of the miles, but these fare basis tickets are not normal issued. Blah blah blah!! I have never been screwed on this, even when buying those cheapie BA online tickets across the Channel (which are firm and mean you don’t get offloaded even though they are only a few bucks more than ID90).

QF Frequent flyer--Qantas works together with Aer Lingus, American Airlines®, British Airways, Cathay Pacific Airways, Finnair, Iberia and LanChile to offer seamless travel to over 650 destinations.

Qantas Frequent Flyers earn points and Status credits when flying on eligible oneworld flights. Frequent Flyer points can also be used to redeem Flight Awards on eligible oneworld flights.

I have had all my sectors on AA and BA credited to QF under OneWorld and actually got more miles for short hops on BA in the EU because off the minimum 1000 miles guarantee per sector, than I would have otherwise received using Star.

RE the food: I flew AA MIA-DFW and received a full good meal in coach. I fly AA’s daily B777 service LAX-LHR often in both Coach and First (never Bussiness, so I cannot comment on this service). I have found the food to be excellent in both the First and Coach class. Obviously its Coach when I’m paying personally and not the boss. You surely are not going to advocate that Star serves up meals of a hirer caliber than OneWorld. The crap comes from the same kitchen; it’s only the meal costing which varies (Y.B F etc). My QF meal last month from LHR was better than the meals on SQ
(same sector). You are being a little pedantic on this issue. I agree that some short sectors on AA could offer a better meal service in Coach.

Lets not try and bullsh1t everybody that choose to travel OneWorld. Hey its their choice, just like I choose Star and SQ. Leave the public bullsh1tting to the experts that run the LCC’s. Yes I hope for Star to return to Oz soon as well. We will then have some competition on the premium routes again. At the moment its too easy for the Tossers at VB to yell low cost to the public by knocking 50 bucks off the QF premium fare whilst blasting the public’s ear that they are “keeping the air fare!” What a con!!!

[Z Force]

And they think leather seats are special. Yeah, more expensive to buy but a lot cheaper to keep clean and no seat covers to keep. IE. Cheaper in the long run.

[FBD]

BankAngle50

Reading your post I first thought who is this guy and can I be bothered replying...but I feel a few things need to be pointed out to you.

I ain't trying to be a OneWorld basher and I really don't want to get into a slanging match with you, even though your comments to me have given me every right to.

All I want to do is the use loyalty program for what I believe it is intended for- the more I fly with the member airlines, the more points and status priviliges I should receive but unfortunately the OneWorld loyalty program has let me down on a few occassions. I had quite a good status with Star until Ansett went...Ansett/Star never screwed me on points...hence my comments about Star.

Of the 3 flights I have mentioned, I did receive the appropriate points for Boston to Vegas. You do not think I am not intelligent enough to contact Qantas and ask where are the points for my transatlantic flights and where are the points for my London - Dublin return flights? Well they won't award them to me because of some small crap in the finer details of the terms and conditions of the program...and if I had nothing better to do with my life and was to read every term and condition of the program, then yeah, I probably would have chosen United for the transatlantic flights and BMI for the Dublin flights.

Can I ask two favours:

1. Give me the contact details of the staff member you spoke with at Qantas...I'll give them a call and demand my points if you think 100% I am entitled to them!

2. Give me your fax number- I'll fax you the nice letter from Qantas telling me to basically "get stuffed" in requesting that the points be awarded to me!

Who is embarassed now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have put your foot right in it buddy!

I think you'll also find I wasn't commenting on differences between OneWorld and Star on food and I wasn't being pedantic, in fact I really couldn't care less...it was mainly the LACK OF FOOD on certain OneWorld flights that I was mentioning, that I expect more from full service airlines!!! Sounds like all the bull1**** is coming from your mouth.

:ok:

ps. I fly BA quite often on short haul to destinations in Europe and on many occassions have found them to offer a cheaper fare than Ryanair and Sleazyjet...and everytime I have flown BA I have been awarded the appropriate points and status credits so no complaints there...and the service has always been fantastic with good food and drink, even on short flights from London to Manchester! If only all their fellow OneWorld members were up to the same standard.

[kangaroota]

ansett had all its assetts stolen by ANZ?????????

Well you can have them back - along with the chamber pot they came in.

[Sheep Guts]

We are in a period of transition. The Days of the Six figure salaries for 50 hrs a Month as a Captain are slowly evaporating. The advent of the 1st low cost many moons ago South West has hatched a multitude of carriers based on a similair system but much much more refined. So much so the regular carriers in their respective markets have had to take in some instances swift action to event their own LCC Start Up Carriers. Some work some dont.

Success Stories : AUTONMOUS START UPS

JET BLUE

VIRGIN BLUE

RYAN AIR

EASY JET

AIR ASIA




LARGE AIRLINE bred start ups where success is yet to be seen:


SONG- Delta

SkimpK and Australian- QANTAS

TED- United (new)

?- British Airways



If anyone can add to my list please do?



Its amazing how they have grown .


Sheep

P.S.
There keys to success in the first group.

1. Low cost fares (obviously)

2.Values in employees

3. Non Unionised ( Im talking Jet Blue maybe others. But in Jet Blues case they created a "working evironment where there was no need for Union")

4. Embraced New Technologies.Reduced Paper in their company. Jet Blue for example use Laptops for all their Fligh Log info anf planning also they email Dir Flight OpS with feedback and all their F and M Logs are done similiar. Even when they went for there Operating Certificate from the FAA it was on 3 CD roms.

There maybe more I havent covered.

[Gnadenburg]

Sheep Guts

Air Asia? Two over runs in two days this month!

This is where Low Cost and Low Quality training of pilots finally meet.

This lesson will probably be learn't in Oceana soon.

[Soho_Sophie]

The real measure of your life in the end is how many people turn up to your funeral.

Doesn't matter how special you think you are because you are a pilot, or how many knotches you have on the end of your bed. I am sick of all the pilots I go on trips with keeping the uniform on to walk through the shopping centre:rolleyes:

If you're only in the job for the money then I'll give you my tips. Earn enough so you can buy your own jet.

I have a diversified investment portfolio, 4 positively geared investment properties and have just completed a course in the Futures Market. I have a programme from a friend and I only have to 'win" on 40% of my deals to make money - conservatively, but in 12 months I will lhave doubled my aviation income.

Sure the industry sucks and is undergoing major changes, but use the income to set yourself up... and don't forget the family because no amount of money will replace a family . You can have all that money and a cute young thing, but basically she's only there for the money and the family loved you. When you're no longer any use, she'll still be young enough to move on and you'll be lonely, broke and retired and on Pprune bitter and twisted and blaming the LCC.

Sophieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Gnadenburg]

Gday Soph

Thank's for the tips and pardon me if I reciprocate.

Beware of "friends" and Futures. May lose some of your property.

The industry is slowly picking up abroad, shortages of qualified pilots. Airlines that slashed pilot conditions post Sept 11 are now finding that their training departments struggling. Growth and pilot attrition!

And on the home front there is a huge demand for pilots in Australia- LCC & Pacific Blue, Virgin and QF. And what do Australian pilots do? Undercut each other. :confused:

[Sheep Guts]

Gnadenburg,
You seem to have a very short Memory. The QF Jumbo at Bangkok a few years back was a a total debacle. Gve us the details of these overruns you talk about?

Overruns happen all the time, its a factor of alot of things, and I dont think it would be wise to confine it to LCCs.:O

The industry is slowly picking up abroad, shortages of qualified pilots

Exactly and what Jobs are becoming more available? LCC Jobs my friend. Not AA or UA or Delta or NorthWest! As I said before we are in transition, new thinking and progress go hand in hand.

You say that QF are Recruiting, maybe their LCCs are, but I think Mainline QF have shut the gate for now.


Sheep:ok:

P.S. Sophie sounds like you need a change. "Come to Jamaica Mon"

[Keg]

Sheep, you forgot Southwest. The big difference is that both Jet blue and Southwest didn't pay their techies 38% less than the going rate. They were creative at how they looked at costs (your lap top example). QF aren't being creative and Aussie pilots are falling over themselves to be uncreative and attack their own perviously held decent conditions.

I know why the Impulse guys are keen. For the captains it guarantees their futures, for the F/Os, it is a massive pay rise as with 25 aircraft, they'll all get commands within the next two years. That doesn't mean it's not short sighted though!

[missleadfoot]

Just a question for all of you so protective of your FF, OW, Star points.

How often are you able to redeem them, and if you are able to are they the sectors you really want to fly, when you want to fly? I know CH9 ACA program can beef up a lot of their segments but they recently reported more and more people are losing faith in the whole point system as they are finding it more and more difficult to redeem points. There was something about QF changing their rewards from KM's travelled to Miles resulting in less points earnt per flight. If it's getting harder to use these points, and personally I believe it is, whats the point. If you want full service (in Australia) then you can get it at the same price as DJ, sometimes less. It may take a bit of searching but they are there. A mate of mine is a platinum member of the QF program and even he is finding it difficult to burn. He does however find it easier to travel through Asia on points with carriers such at Finair.

Anyway it's just a question and I'm not trying to upset anyone, I just don't see the point in "points". Are they really worth saving?

Unfortunaltely flying these days is like catching a bus, everyones done it, fares are low and it gets you from A to B, quickly. Safety is imperative and thats where your money should go. The glamour and romance has unfortunately gone as more and more people are flying and have higher demands such as getting there on time over what inflight service is offered. Long haul travel is getting shorter due to newer and more comfortable aircraft with more facilities we could never have dreamed of.

Sometimes the taxi fare to the airport costs more and can be longer than the flight, you dont expect the driver to whip out a picnic basket. What I am saying is you know what to expect when booking your fare. These days you know what you are getting with your fare, I know DJ make it clear and hot breakfasts on QF are long gone, and I really miss the Ansett breakfast. But times have changed. Flying is a mode of transport now and not a luxury. It's affordable to most and even before DJ came in with their invisible discount fares, fares have come down.

[Gnadenburg]

Sheep Guts

The market has rewarded Australian military and GA pilots with endorsement training and good renumeration in very recent years gone by.

The market is ready to do it again.

But it has been distorted and betrayed by the "professionals" themselves.

"What to do"?

If you guys are buying NG endorsements to fly for 70K a year I have an idea to fund my early retiremnet.

Pyramid letters for pilots. Not even an oxymoron ring to it!

[fugitive]

I couldn`t let this one pass ,but what bitterness,It looks as if our friend has found out what it is like to lose ones livlihood,only the one he lost was never his in the first place,it belonged to; what did he call them, 89`ers.
He is right tho; Austalian aviation has returned to what it was like in the early 60`s.
It took many years to develope a strong union that was wholly representitive of pilot`s and in 89 the union was put out of business by opportunism and greed.
It will take many years to rebuild a pilots union,but it wont be in our lifetime as there is one thing that has been lost and that is trust.
we let people dictate to us and run our working lives and these very people were the first to grab themselves a job when the going got tough.
To the person who started this thread;get off your backside and get back into what was once the greatest job going,only this time,dont do it at someone else`s expense