Grob Tutor / G115 First Impressions

[Circuit Basher]

Yesterday, I managed to blag from Her Majesty a 45 minute ride in a Grob Tutor out of Leuchars (escorting a pile of mummy's little treasures for Air Experience Flying!). :D :ok: I thought I'd post a few first impressions to see whether it was just me or whether others who have more experience on type than me would concur (some are comparisons with Bulldog, other just observations):

1. Cockpit seemed a bit narrower than the Bulldog - myself (not very svelte at just over 13 stone / 5ft 11in) + slightly more beefy ex-Vulcan pilot were jostling for upper arm space together. Couldn't easily see / get to elevator trim in centre console.

2. Seat seemed a bit far back in relation to stick and once strapped in, could only adjust rudder pedals using heel of right boot (strapper-in was a bit quick to 'do me up' before I'd got properly seated).

3. Several of the engine instruments I wanted most (engine RPM, manifold pressure) were in front of RH seat, whilst other engine instruments were on LH section of panel. ASI was on RHS of panel, making it difficult to check using peripheral vision.

4. Elevator trim was very coarse and seemed to be tricky to set
accurately.

5. Parking brake was inaccessible from LH seat unless straps released.

6. Long travel on throttle with very little effect on Man Press when reducing to cruise settings - estimate around 60% of angular movement of throttle movement required to go from 100% to 75% power.

7. Visibility in climb fairly poor due to low seating position relative to engine cowling. Canopy roll bar very thick and obscures significant proportion of view in area where there is a high probability of mid-air collision risk.

8. Very tolerant of poor approaches and will make a reasonable landing out of some pretty poor piloting!! ;)

9. Wheel brakes quite prone to 'grabbing' and shuddering if applied hard.

10. Nosewheel is a bit 'vague' when taxying and aircraft 'wanders' quite a lot, even when rudder pedals are held steady.

11. Seat straps impossible to see underneath life preserver. Parachute fastenings similarly awkward.

and last but not least....

12. I'm out of practice at aeros (around 4 yrs since I last did any) and 25 mins of loops / barrel rolls / stall turns / Cuban 8s plus miscellaneous 4g manoeuvres is about my limit these days before :yuk: ;) A quiet word to the pilot like 'I'm not really going to learn any more at this stage - should we go do some circuits?' was considered advisable before 'doing a Clarkson'!!! ;)

All in all, quite an enjoyable experience! Aircraft is certainly not
under powered!!! :D :ok:

And I really need to re-learn my understanding of a barrel roll - pilot was saying yesterday that exit heading is at 90 deg to entry - not the way I'd flown them in a Bulldog at all. Maybe stik or some other who is smarter than me will be able to refresh my memory on what has always been the manoevre of which I have had the sketchiest understanding (despite having seen the drawings and been flown around many times in Chipmunks / Bulldogs).

[DB6]

What your instructor probably meant/said was that you need a reference point at 90 degrees to your entry heading. Half way around the barrel roll you should be inverted pointing at this feature; you should exit the manoeuvre on the same heading as you entered.
Tutor's ok, but pales beside the mighty Firefly :cool: . There's no substitute for hp :ok:

[tmmorris]

Err... the Grob is designed to be flown solo from the right seat, i.e. that's where the important instruments are (including the HSI, for example).

Tim

[pilot_will]

Hi, I usually fly the Grob 115 about once every 2 months with the Air Cadets. On my first flight walking to the aircraft with the pilot, I looked in and thought "oh c#ap". It does look quite small! lol.

Once I was inside it was great! got shown the main instroments, like Circuit Basher says, shame most of the important ones are on the right ;) but the ones on the left are ok for when you are flying. The trim I found was easy to set :D, only thing I don't like is the G. Im getting use to that abit though now.

[Circuit Basher]

Tim - I recognise that for some strange reason, the G115 is soloed from right seat, but would have expected a key instrument such as ASI to appear on both halves of the panel, or at least fairly close to the centre. The AI is on both sides (but that was about as much use as a chocolate ashtray as it spent a large proportion of the sortie toppled!! :D ;))

Pilotwill - also forgot to mention the shape of the stick - I'm kind of used to round ones, rather than elliptical! Also, found the stick to have a lot of control run 'stiction', as it was moderately tight even at zero airspeed. I take it that it is a cable run, rather than rods?

[edited to correct formatting]

[Another St Ivian]

Sounds like you need a thicker back cushion with regard to the seating position, next time try the Grey instead of a Blue, or if you had the Grey then try another Blue back. A thicker base will also raise you higher and might help with the view over the nose.
The solo from the right hand seat business is to do with having the control column in the right hand and the throttle in the left hand, as you would with later types after EFT. As a result all of the important instruments are on the right side too. Scanning across to the right to read the ASI and such like doesn't cause too much difficulty but I agree, it is a little annoying.
While only having hands on experience on a limited number of types the trim doesn't feel particularly coarse and you do actually run out of nose up trim in certain configurations.
The nose wheel is connected to the rudders by a set of springs if I remember correctly, so it doesn't always instantly respond.
The controls are connected by rods, not cables. I've not experienced this sticking you talk about before.

A.S.I

[TangoZulu]

Lucky blighter - getting 45 minutes courtesy of HM - dahn Sarf here at 2AEF we normally only get around 25-30 minutes including a fairly long taxy to the active - which typically means aout 20 minutes actually in the air!

As far as the trim goes - agreed it is very much more sensitive than the PA28 - and if I put in 5 handfuls in the Grob I am not sure where I would be - as opposed ot the "5 handfuls should about do it" when doing PFLs in the PA28.

From memory there is not a lot to be done about the rudder pedals - being slim and svelte like you :O ;) albeit with probably slighter shorter legs I too find it a problem, especially as the ground crew normally don't give me much of a cushion. Also reaching things once "strapped down" can be interesting.

Agree power is much better than the bulldog - not had the chance to fly in the Slingsby so don't really know what that is like.

I was under the impression that we were not allowed to fly the circuit in the Tutor at AEF - although sometimes I have been allowed to - and sometimes not - dependent upon the pilot. It does seem reasonably easy to land, although perhaps a slight tendency to sink in the latter stages a bit more than I am used to in the PA28 - could just be not overly familiar with the Grob.

Hope you are well up there!

ATB

TZ

[Another St Ivian]

As far as I remember unless the Pilot is an Instructor you aren't allowed control below 1000ft.

A.S.I

[Circuit Basher]

TZ - the 45 mins wasn't the norm; a couple of the intended 'blue furrys' didn't show, one was refused a slot due medical issue and one escort member of staff who was given a slot wasn't quite svelte enough to get into a Size 12 suit (the largest :D), so all involved were scheduled to get 30 min slots. The AEF here translate that as 30 mins airborne, so with 5 mins taxi either way, it was averaging a 35 - 40 min sortie. I got lucky as I kept asking questions!! Also, at 2AEF, I have flown circuits / landings / take offs several times in the Bulldog - maybe it's just having the brass neck to ask!! ;) :ok:

ASI - Thanks for comprehensive answer - I had no additional cushions over and above the standard aircraft fit (other than my silk back cushion ;)), so that may have been it - I certainly felt like I was too far back in the seat. I wasn't really saying that the controls were 'sticky' - just not as 'loose' as I'm used to with a stick, which made trimming a little more difficult and there seemed to be a certain minimum stick force required to get any control movement. In terms of panel layout, I did take a couple of digital piccies of the layout and have subsequently reviewed them - the only flying instruments that the P U/T has one 'his' panel are an alt and AI; the ASI, turn / slip and HSI / DG are all in front of the RH seat. Engine instruments seem to be randomly dotted around the panel and I thought it a bit strange to have dual function instruments arranged as EGT / OAT and Fuel Press / CHT - I'd have personally gone for EGT / CHT on the same instrument. The trim I'm used to (from PA28 / C150 / C172 / Fuji) typically has around 1/8 wheel turn 'dead zone' and then around 1/2 to 1 turn to get around 5 deg pitch change. I didn't really get a chance to fully experiment with the Grob, but I would estimate less than a 1/4 turn with no dead zone for the same effect. Not trying to be over-critical, but I felt that trimming to a level attitude was more tricky in the Grob - I was very wary of touching the trim on finals to get my approach speed nailed as it was more sensitive than I was used to.

As I say, all first impressions in a new type - I may grow to like it if Her Majesty gets generous again in future!! :)

[ToryBoy]

I saw a Grob 115 take off from Compton Abbas a couple of weeks ago. It was two up and there was a 5 kt headwind. I had flown my 5 year old daughter down their for some lunch and she was the one that said "Daddy, is that plane going to take off or not".

I looked round and this Grob literally became airborne 80 yds before the end of the runway!

Someone once mentioned on a previous thread about their lack of power and the next circuit this guy did proved that.

He lined up and gave full power. The accelaration was remarkably slow. So slow in fact that someone sitting outside having their lunch actually jokingly held their finger up as if to check it was actually moving!

Are these a/c supplied with very coarse props or are they typically in need of lots of runway?

[Slow-Rider]

There are several variants on the Grob 115, the 115E, used by the UAS/AEF these have 185 hp engines. The Navy use the 115D which has 160hp and other variants have 115hp engines.

The earlier variants have given the Grob it's underpowered rep and is probably the reason why it looked like it would crash into the overshoot.

[Another St Ivian]

For those that haven't seen the cockpit a few of my photos are online here (http://www.cyborg2000.fsnet.co.uk), if you follow the link to the flying photos there are some cockpit shots.
By the way, with a 5 knot headwind the take off roll on a day like today comes out at about 1400ft.

ASI

[Circuit Basher]

Chris - I took a couple of cockpit shots myself, which I was wondering about posting in my MSN Group and linking from here, but there is always an issue that it seems to want people to register before they can view. You saved me that nausea - thanks!

One or two of your piccies seem to have been saved upside down / sideways!! ;):D

I was further interested in the fact that I'd spotted the 3 'St Andrews Crosses' on the coaming under the mag compass in the aircraft from Leuchars AEF - I thought it was to do with the Scottish connection for Leuchars-based aircraft, but now see them on 5 AEF aircraft.

[Another St Ivian]

To the best of my memory all of the pics were the right way up. I have tweaked a few like this one (http://www.cyborg2000.fsnet.co.uk/new.jpg) though.

The three crosses are simply blanks on the spare sections of the CWP (Central Warning Panel).

ASI

EDIT: Ahh, I get you regarding the pic saving, sorry, sense of humour failure.

[pilot_will]

Great pictures Another St Ivian :ok:

Brings back lots of memorys

[Send Clowns]

Liked the 115D2 when I did RN grading on it, a great aircraft :ok:, but have to agree with DB6, the Firefly 260 feels more punchy and also being heavier rather more stable, especially in turbulence. Yak 52 even better though (me Dad has 1/8th of one) :E

[Slow-Rider]

Some guys that have flown the Firefly complain that the Grob is a bit bouncy when landing. That either vindicates me or means we are equally bad at landing!! :O