SIA Cargo Hiring!!!! (merged)

[CFIT]

Looks like lots of guys are moving on to better places. Just wondering what the working conditions and pays are like at SIA. Also, since they are hiring F/O's, even without type rating, is there even a chance for future command?:confused:

[CDRW]

The terms and conditions that SIA are offering are to be honest a farce - its a bit of poker on their side - put out an offer that is on par with contracts offered by third world developing nations and see what response you get.

Join on the freighter and you certainly will get a command and I suspect in pretty short order as no-one from mainline will volunteer to go for that rubbish - a few will be forced but hopefully they will find better employ else where. If you are married, have a squeeker or two who are in the schooling system and are of a European background, you simply will not make ends meet, unless, you go for local schools, which are not bad, but you must start your kids in the system and not join it at say age 8 onwards. There is also quite alot of pressure on the kids in the schools;) Accomodation will also be a bit of a challenge, quite a big challenge infact. Really in all honesty I suppose that the contract suites ( and I use that word very liberally) either oldish guys, good pension, want a bit of play money and get around a bit, or very young guys, (no kids, maybe a wife) short on time and want to fly the old banger -400 and get it on the licence - do some time and move on. - Good luck

[stable approach]

"fly the old banger -400 and get it on the licence - do some time and move on. "

But don't expect to be moving on any time soon, because you will have a hefty bond to shackle you to Singapore.

[Jim Morehead]

No matter how bad it is, could somebody post the information if they ahve it?

Is the BOND that was referred to for people NOT typed?

[jubilee773]

Here is the information for SIA Cargo :

SIA Cargo F/O and Captain (http://www.siacargo.com/First%20Officer%20and%20Captain%20positions.pdf)

[millerscourt]

Jim Morehead Why on earth would you be interested in SIA Cargo???????????

On your salary at CAL you would not even be interested in the Mail Line Salaries!! Why do you think some SQ Pilots are coming to Taipei for interviews with CAL??

Re Bond . If you are Type rated then there is no Bond unless they change terms for this Cargo deal.

You will still have to do a full long winded course except no circuits if Type rated. This could take up to 4 months to complete whilst on an even lower training salary!!!

Still interested?? If so then go to the website www.siacargo.com

Or you can EMail your details to [email protected]

Go on have a good laugh and do so!!

In the advertisement it says "You will be paid a Basic Salary" You can bet your life that is what they mean!!!!:{

[oicur12]

and still no info about pay and COS.

[southernmtn]

Has anyone seen SIA Cargo's advertisement in Flight International or else where apart from their own website? Is there any mention of salary any where?

Many remember SIA's advertisements in FI, in which their remuneration schemes are posted. But now, I wonder why no compensation plan is posted any where?

[CFIT]

Since there is no information about compensation plan posted, could someone tell me what the current condition is? Would there be any difference between Freight and Pax fleet?

[millerscourt]

Southermmtn Yes I think you will find that the reason that salaries are no longer quoted as before in FI is because they probably want to see how low a salary they can offer to get people!!

Because they are prepared to type rate people with a 5 year Bond on 744 you will always get a certain number of Pilots who think that the 744 is a meal ticket for life and perhaps they will accept 5 years from being on line as a worthwhile penalty.

I would say be wary of this . I thought the same about the B707 in the 70's It was amazing how suddenly it went out of fashion and became a dinosaur!! Could the 744 go the same way in a few years time????


CFIT Yes of course it is a lower salary in SIA cargo.

[FatEric]

was briefed on the Sing Cargo pay today.

75 hours/month will GROSS about 6500 dollars. Thats about 5270 Oz dollars - before tax.

3 weeks annual leave.

cheap ass crap SQ staff travel not worth peeing on.

Basically, not flash.

MI and SQ guys are leaving in droves - I wonder why.

[M Nitpak]

FE

That salary seems terribly low. I think a SIA 777 Captain based in Australia is on around AUD $160,000. (3 times your figures) It just doesn't make sense.

Are you sure of these figures ?

Are you aware if the basings are all Singers or are other basings up for grabs ?

:confused:

[FatEric]

sorry,

I am talking FOpay and COS.

Heaven forbid I would ever get a command on a jet. Maybe another 6000 jet/glass/big willie hours and I could consider myself getting a command.

Too many low time locals in the que though.

[FlyHigher]

Hello,

Anybody with information about the flight pay and per diem. Also how much is the taxes in Singapore and about the pay differences between contract terms and local terms?

Many thanks in advance

[Willie Everlearn]

Lads.

What about older guys (like me at 50+) who have the wide body Int'l experience (not the Type Rating) with lots of hours who's kids are grown and school fees, accomodation, etc. (even salary) aren't that big a deal????

Training Bond? I'd be happy with 5 years minimum stay in one job with a shot at command compared to the hell I've been through the last five.
Is it worth applying for or not???

Freight flying is great.
Just think....you and the boys taking your very own 747-400 off round the world.

What about reasonable dosh for all that fun???

Judging by what I read on a fairly regular basis in this forum, there aren't that many 'good outfits' out there worth working for anyway.

watch this space

:ok:

[CDRW]

Willie baby,

See my earlier post about older(ish) guys joining who do have any commitments to family, are thrilled about flying the -400 and don't mind not being able to save any money, not really worried about the staff travel benefits and are not really fussed about living in a one bedroomed flat in Pungol.- You are exactly what this crowd want. I should imagine that you would have a shot at command - as no main stream capt is going to "volunteer" and should doubt that very few outside will apply for direct entry. Also take note that a "command course" in SQ is approx one year of tests and checks and would turn the most hardened teatotal into a Jack Daniels connoisseur.

Good luck.

[freightdriver]

Well, considering what I am earning now on a local contract in Indonesia flying a classic 737 (200s) freighter...the 744 type on the license and 5 years stability is not so bad!

the figure for FO I assume is in USD not SIN$ (6500/mo)

Do you think I have a chance? with 2000 total and about 700 in 737-200. 1.5 years Cargo ops experience in and out of WSSS.

Any info on work environment from current SIA CARGO pilots is appreciated....



:ok:

;) thanks guys!

[millerscourt]

Freightdriver You figure wrong. All $$$$ are SGD not US!!!!!! A big difference.

[FlyHigher]

I also tought it was in USD. In SIN$ it's not so atractive.
Anyway, I appreciate if someone could give some details about taxes, flight pay and per diems.

Many thanks again!

[Bob MacGillivary]

RE: SIA CARGO some good info has been posted some not so good info.....it's no secret...............
Starting salary .................S$8000/7700 while in trng
Transfer from within up to 3 increments of 200ea for each 2yrs on type
Relocation allowance...S$3000per mth...this is basically for housing as Singapore is the only baseing option (now?) you will use most or all of this!
Hourly flt pay..........S$45.......an adverage sched month for est is 70hrs...some will be more some less
Expense S$6 per hour..................to eat at Mc'D's
28 days leave............mainline 42
1 confm vaca pass on SIA.......3 id90's
no type rating ...you bond!!
SO WHAT DO YOU THINK?????????????????????????????

[EasyGo-Lucky?]

I've posted a few more details in the other thread regarding benefits.

You will work to the AOC not the CA to a maximum of 100 hours a month. The overseas based Captains work to this limit and reach it on a regular basis so expect SIA Cargo to be no different.

WILLIE......if you are 50 now by present SIA rules you will not be elligible for a command for 5 years. Another SIA rule also states that at 55 or above a command will not be offered.

[highcirrus]

On the “singapore airlines recruiting” thread, EasyGo-Lucky? presents very accurate information re: captain salaries on the “cargo contract”.

Readers who may be considering a move to this SE Asian pasture may care to further consider that it is the continued policy of the Singapore Government (though mutely stated) to progressively weaken the currency in order to remain wage and cost competitive with the likes of China, India, Thailand et al. Some in Singapore would take issue with the fundamental soundness of this genius strategy and its potentially catastrophic deflationary effect on the Singapore economy, but there is hereabouts, of course, no mechanism to air dissent or broadcast alternatives.

As an example, when first I arrived on this brown pasture, the Sing $ stood at 2.23 to the £ Sterling. The ratio is now 2.90, falling daily and will quickly pass the psychological ratio of 3.00. So prospective captains to this cargo backwater may like to do their sums in respect of any foreign currency remittances which they may be obliged to make in the years ahead and come to an appropriate judgment as to their future course of action.

Similarly, the much vaunted B747-400 has become very much yesterday’s airplane as evidenced by the accelerating SQ disposal programme and the plethora of locals jumping to the B777 fleet.

There is a definite sniff in the air here of the B777-200/300 and possibly 300ER being the B747 replacement on the slightly thinner 747 routes and the coming A380 revolutionizing fares and services on the major trunks.

It could, therefore, be an idea to review any career strategy you may hold, prior to entering an exceptionally onerous bond and accepting a remarkably austere benefit package, to fly a distinctly dated airplane of declining passenger utility, in the cargo section of our industry.

[happydriver]

Bob,

I'm assuming that the figures you posted are for the guys sitting up in left hand seat.....how about figures for the guy next to him.

Cheers. :ok:

[highcirrus]

happydriver

Not sure what figure Bob will come up with for RH seaters but the 45 SIA cadets currently being trained in Oz are all destined for SIA Cargo (they don't have a choice) and they will emerge as very junior pilots on such low salaries as to take the breath away (along with the 7 year bond they'll have to work off).

Happy propects huh?

[Bob MacGillivary]

Happy Driver
The info I have which is subject to change by SIA is for rated F/O's
only. My previous posting was for Capt's scale
F/O type rated scale S$4800 to 7200 per mth
Gratuity end of 3yrs S$36000
Hourly Flt pay
0-70hrs S$25.80
71-100hrs S$38.70
DH pay S$12.90
28 days leave
I don't know if F/O's are given the same monthly relocation as the capt's or not!
other conditions seem the same as capt's with the exception of duty travel seating
There is medical coverage and basically the same pass policy as capt's 1 FOC then subload benefits
Once again it's an individual's call........................
all above in Singapore dollars and bottom tax rate approx 16% in S'pore

[FlyHigher]

So, what do you think guys,

Any advantage in applying, for a non rated F/O?

Cheers

[b777pilot]

come on guys, i think the 747 cargo or its variant has been around a looooooooooong time and will continue to do so. a licence with type endorsement should be good for the next 15 years at least. well maybe not with SQ.

yes, the pay is low compared to the mother company but where else in the world do you get a rating without climbing the rungs of seniority?

BUT if you are type rated, i would really like to know why you signed on.

[CDRW]

And the mother company pay is pretty bad at that - for the time being.

b777diver, your post is exactly what I said earlier in terms of if someone really wants to put a 747-400 on his licence ( I reffered to it as the "old banger") is not unhappy about the terms of employment, can do his 5 and a bit years then ****** off to better places, then SIA frieghter is the way to go.

But hopefully not many out there will take the companies "generous" offer to "join the team" and they will be obliged to review the contract.

[SIA300]

Hello everyone,

I would like to correct Bob's posting abt the FO's package, particularly the gratuity........that is offered ONLY to SIA 744 FOs
as for service increment, i quote, 'it is reviewed on an annual basis and subjected to a max of 2.5% depending on considerations such as company performance, NWC (National Wage Council) reccomendations and other factors' (like SARS, war, any other sorry excuses). For the benefit of those not familiar with the NWC, they have been actively pushing for more competitive wages (i.e. lower wages) as well as more variable components in salaries which can be removed in 'bad' times. (up to 20% i hear). So far, SIA has been leading the way by adopting all these recommendations....promptly!

FOs won't be offered relocation allowance cos' SIA Cargo will only take FO on local terms, not on contract basis.

there's also the annual wage supplement of one month's basic. (13th month bonus) and profit sharing. they haven't work out the formula yet but rest assured it'll be ****ty.

There's also this so called 'out of base' allowance which pays S$6 an hour from start to end of the COP. This replaces the current meal allowance that we enjoy. Be aware that with the Sing dollar weakening, you'll be hard pressed to find food in Europe...even at McDs....a 'Mcvalue' meal can costs up to 8 euros!!

did i mention the tax at this bracket is about 16-20% (will probably rise very soon) and GST is goin to be 5% next year?

so if you're currently a young junior FO, single, you love being EXPLOITED, you love PUNISHMENT (16 days round the world COP with minimum days off after that) and you want a 744 rating then go for it. Just watch out for the bond thingy. If it's more than 3 years, then more consideration is needed....

If you have family, don't bother applying! If the COPs doesn't kill you, it'll sure kill your family life!

[happydriver]

Thanks everyone for your info.....i had always had my eye on SIA...it seemed like a pilot friendly outfit....I guess things have changed....wonder how many guys will go for the deal....i do hope that they review it...but i'm almost certain they will be able to fill the slots as is.....unfortunately another certain step towards further degradation of our general working conditions.

Good luck to all applying.....for what ever reason it might be.

[CDRW]

Yes it is very :( the way it has gone. and now don't forget that you could get a life in prison sentance by going to a karaoke bar and enjoying the delights!!

The armchair generals have played their hand - it is backed by the government - the only out now is the guys pack their bags and go - unfortunately alot are bonded (enslaved is a more apt word) otherwise I suspect a lot more would walk out. Moral is so low its would definatley be a factor in any incident that was to occur - but as one HR or beancounter stated "Moral does not have an entry in the balance sheet"

[freightdriver]

Well this is the reality....the FO pay is quite low and Singapore is not a cheap place to live (except if you're into the local food stalls variety...)

But where I am now, flying the 737-200 with senior Captains in their late 40's and early 50's who would still give their left N*T to fly an old banger like 747-400 even for SIA Cargo. I am for one a type of pilot who stands for the right of all pilots worldwide to fair pay and working conditions, reality: not every economy is equal and believe me there are places in this world that pay their pilots a lot less than SIA..I know it's a crime considering that they fly the same equipment and share the same airspace...

The fact remains where I am now maybe I have a shot at command in 1.5 years, pay as Captain will still be lower than a 744 Cargo FO at SIA. I do enjoy my current schedule that always brings me home to my family every night. But for them as well I have to consider the future, one day I would like to be able to work for an International carrier that pays well and gives me the time to spend with my family...(I am sure there are gigs like that....)

So maybe the 5 year bond with the 747-400 type rating is my ticket, this argument is only valid if they would consider hiring someone like me...32 years old, married and 2 children with only 2000+ total and about 700+ 737-200 time....

Do you feel lucky punk? @#$#@%$ Well do you?;)

[FlyHigher]

Well, its seems to me that even the deal at Qatar Airways is a little better!

cheers

[Willie Everlearn]

Not sure how a B747-400 Freighter that was recently delivered to SQ is "an old banger"???....but, I've read enough and learnt alot from your posts gentlemen.
Obviously a job for our Ozmates. No self-respecting Canuck would stoop so low......unless, it's our Ozmates shout. (we aren't easy, but we can be tricked)
;)
Good luck to all.
I'll just keep lookin'
:ok:

[millerscourt]

freightdriver It is not only a 5 year Bond from the end of your line training BUT a big bank Guarantee of $60000 which will cost $2000 for the paperwork alone. It has to be signed by a Bank in Singapore so if you are not bringing $60000 in Cash with you when you arrive then if paperwork not done within 20 days to SQ satisfaction then Bye Bye !!

I am assuming the same conditions that apply to Mainline with regards "Bondage" also apply to this Cargo deal.

[cpt744]

freightdriver,
Just hand in your application for your own sake. If the deal works out well for you, go ahead and enjoy the change for the better.

For the rest,
Whoever joining SQ Cargo "should" be rest assured of a long term job as your pay is capped at rather low level. For those in the main pax fleets, the ploy is there for them(the management) to get rid of the higher pay ceiling group. Eventually if they get what they want, SQ cargo presently suggested payscale is what they want for the long term for all fleets as the NWC(National wage council) gave the company the green light to comply with the 1.5 ratio of bottom to ceiling payscale.

Just another info for the rest, the number of crew volunteer to swich over internally from 744 fleet.... ZERO.... Of course soon you might hear some will do so, that's just because they are the ones with contract running out and there will be no renewal offered to them..

[freightdriver]

CPT744 Well I will hand it in and as a matter of fact my better half is busy filling up the application form. I think overall I will make out on top after 5 years, the main thing is just to stay afloat for the period and being able to pay bills whille in Singapore.

As far as the $60,000 Bank guarantee, if they offer me the position I still have a few investment I can reallocate just for a the occassion (career move, kids college fund etc). During my absence from flying I did a sales job for 5 years, which afford me the 737 type rating and the pot of gold...(given it's a small one but still provide extra security..)

I am sure I am not the only one who will apply, so for those who does good luck and see you in the class room. For those who doesn't wish you the best! and hope you find a better offer somewhere else (just don't forget about me the Freightdriver...)



:ok:

[sia sniffer]

And still you guys continue to consider SIA, lambs to the proverbial.

Some might like to ask Bob M how he feels on the recent expat cull at SIA. Sticking up for whats right is honorable, but in sq is frowned upon.

SARS wrecked Asia, and SIA were not spared this. When the chips are down, then it’s the expat who pays the price in this racially biased company. Yes, racial discrimination against none Singaporeans, its in the small print of the terms and cond, read it. And F/O promotion to Capt... forget it, the locals will swamp the few unlucky expat joes who think the can get to that rung on the ladder.

[highcirrus]

freightdriver

You would seem to be one of those people who travel through life in constant need of protection from the fruits of their own folly.

Why on earth do you consider subjecting yourself and your family to five years of subjugation to an utterly rapacious company, an onerous “contract” (that can be changed to your detriment at any time and at the drop of a hat), an even more onerous bond, a bank guarantee that saps every last drop of your personal reserve and the prospect of subsistence living in SE Asia’s most expensive city, all for a B744 rating that comes with the prospect of serious time away from your family and a life of constant and major time zone adjustment? Really, if you just need to play with a new toy, buy yourself a train set!

It really beggars belief that, even after years of postings on Pprune by a plethora of SIA survivors and current employees, all sending the same message of SIA/Singapore Government ruthlessness, benefit cuts and unfairness towards employees (local and ex-pat) that you and others are still queuing up for exploitation just as major numbers of pilots are starting to jump the SIA ship after years of poor treatment.

At least if you are determined to put your head in the noose, have the wit to delay your application until SIA, out of desperation at a zero application response, react to their beloved market forces and improve the p*ss poor package they are currently offering to you and similar dupes.

Good luck – you'll need it.

[highcirrus]

freightdriver

I've just re-read SIA300's posting of 13 November. You would serve yourself well by doing the same.

He is absolutely accurate with his facts and assessments and in particular please take note that any offer to join SIA Cargo as an FO would be on "local" terms and hence would not attract housing allowance (or education allowance).

It is difficult, therefore, to imagine how you would be able to financially survive in Singapore with a wife and two children - the latter, of course, not attracting an allowance to ease payment of school fees and perhaps finding it hugely difficult if not impossible to join the State education system.

Please tread very carefully and be under no illusion that, in the event you were to join SIA Cargo and then were to put a foot wrong and be terminated, your bank guarantee cash would be gone and you would be remorselessly pursued for any outstanding bond balance.

[Jim Morehead]

Hummmm...Some of this SIA cargo stuff is sure making CAL look very very good <bfg>.......

[gb777]

Freightdriver

Before signing a contract,you should make a "balance sheet"
of outgoing versus incoming funds, like I did before moving to
SIN. Very helpful indeed.

Maybe I can give you some typical expenses :

Housing : S$ 3500-5000 for a standard appartment
(+Guarantee 2 months cash upfront)
You are banned from living in HDB flats, only for locals.

School fee : S$ 8000-10000 per child per semester
so twice a year this amount
(+Guarantee 1 semester per child cash upfront)

Energy bill : Typical S$300-500
Transport :
(How many pilots can afford a car ?)

Food:
Luxury items like TV cable :

Many things to look into ....

Anyway good luck with your decision
Please correct me if any statements are wrong

gb

[freightdriver]

Gents...

:hmm: Please don't get me wrong, just because I am going to apply that I will risk everything for the sake of getting a 747-400 type on my license...and no I don't need a new toy.

If they do make an offer, I will study it with care and make a decision based on the offer put on the table. Yes I agree with everyone that there are better companies out there to work for, incl. CAL so if you work there PM me and I will give you my details so you could ask someone in the HRD why they have not reply to my application.

YOu are right Singapore is not cheap, but keep in mind living in Jakarta the past 1.5 years I can adjut my living standards a bit...

like apt: sin$ 2200 (furnished) fernwood terrace off the ECP, nice neighbourhood...
Kids are 4 y/o and an a baby...the local school system is based on the U.K. system (high standard) and transferable to the U.S. and any countries in the region.

Yes I am very concern about the treatment of local and expat pilots during and post SARS, and it may be the one reason I will not take the offer of employment but like I said..I still would like to try and see what they are offering (contract terms etc.) unless someone is willing to share a copy of a recent SIA CARGO terms and condition.

Again I am still keepin my options open and I am quite happy at my present situation, but like other pilots before me I like to move on to better and bigger things (equipment and salary)...One of the purpose of this site is to exchange useful information (a bit of gossip) and for me to field test what seem to be a good idea in my head at the time...



:ouch:

[millerscourt]

Freightdriver Sure Fernwood is convenient. The No 36 Bus stops right outside which will take you straight to the airport cos you won't be able to afford the taxi fare and don't even think of getting a car on that salary!!!

For $2200 a month furnished, it must be pretty small. Remember one step out of line in SQ and your $60000 Bank Guarantee is a goner and SQ , once you are trapped there can change your T &C,s downwards. Just see what they have done to Mainline.

As for a Command then you can forget that. The number of expats promoted to the LHS is very small indeed.

Best of luck.

[Life as a journey]

freightdriver

you sound like a sensible fellow.

good luck, but i think sia cargo are going to screw you either way.

i have a mate there - mainline.

called him about my appl to sia cargo; yes, shocking but true, even i put one in.

the word from inside is not good, and i can assure you i am not crapping when i say, it isn't for me, what-ever they offer!

my man is at the very top of expat heaven in sia, and i have no reason to doubt him now, or question his motives in dispensing his solemn advice, after all these years.

that said, you go ahead and check it out.

one thing i am wary of with sia cargo is that if any of my other 5 potential job offers come home to roost, or, pray tell, my home country, home town, type-specific, Godsend newstart operation asks me to "come on down" from all these years in limbo, aka an un-named se asian country, I should have to decline their generous offer as my ass would be in a sling at sia.

("hmmm, singapore sling...that's funny.")

it's definitely something to think of, even though it may not apply to you, directly, at this point in your life.

bear in mind the empirical evidence available whereby sia has chased down 'runners' to the ends of the earth, at times.

before you even start, they fully intend to keep the bond/bank guarantee if you fail a check, or are chased out of town - through a check failure - if you dare go sick too many times/object to the workload/resist in any way.

so i guess it comes down to this:

if you can take the pain, they can take the shiit, as they happily ram their hairless knobs squarely up your ars.

this is a reality check, and i guess it doesn't sound that great.

nonetheless, it's not just rhetoric; it's real.

but hey, good luck buddy.

really.

[sq111]

Rental of apartments have dropped over the years, so the figure here a bit high, if you shop around, its easy to get a average size apartment for less than SGD$2k.

Taxi to airport is non-issue, cos company pays. If you stay in the Eastern part (NEar SIA Training Centre) Taxi to airport probably cost about $6.

Cars in Singapore, that the expensive part. A mid size 1.5l Mitsubishi Lancer cost about $70,000, add in road tax of $1000 annually, Insurance of $1500 annually, Petrol at average $1.20 per litre, you'll burn money faster than a 744 burning its fuel.
(All figures in SGD). Forget about your Lexus or BMW, its cost more than $150000 in Singapore.

Salary in SQ is not the highest, but beats most regionals hands down.

Main problem is adapting to the management style here. Unions here are unlike the West, where you can don't fly and go on strike to drive your message through, do that in Singapore and they'll pack you in the lastest A345 to send you home the fastest possible time.

[millerscourt]

sq111 Sure I agree that rental prices have come down of late but I do not agree with you that $2000 per month gets you a nice place that you would want to live in with a 4 year old and baby like Freightdriver!!

Do we know that SQ Cargo are paying the taxi allowance as part of this Cargo deal??

Even if so on the salary being offered freightdriver will need to take the Bus to work and put the taxi allowance to add to his mediocre salary.

Sure again regional airlines pay even less but they are aiming for Local Pilots on local salaries. Why be anexpat with all the insecurity that goes with living far from home for a pittance??

Rental allowances and ALL benefits in kind like ID90 and so called free annual ticket are taxed as a benefit and you pay for medical renewals and licence renewal every 6 months to boot!!

[happie]

well how much is sia cargo salary ? captain pls basic and allowance including productivity.

[faheel]

happie why dont you just read this thread??
On page one is the salary package by Bob MacGillivary. and what he say is 100% correct stop being lazy and do your homework.

[highcirrus]

sq111

Perhaps in the sylvan uplands of your dreams, SQ pays for taxis to work on the 24 hour basis which you imply. However, in the gritty reality of life at the SQ mast, the deal in “mainline” is as follows:

“Taxis will be provided when pilots are required to report for flying duties (including aircraft base training) between midnight and 0700 hrs, or return home from duty between 2300 and 0600 hrs.”

I remain unconvinced of any proposition which would indicate that the SIA Cargo taxi policy will be anymore generous than the above.

happie

Please take the trouble to skip back a page or so on this thread and all will be revealed.

[etops777]

CAL's conditions are not any better than SQ.

shxx management, lousy rosters, the list goes on. PM me if you need to know more about CAL

[Mack Number]

Not only is the pay peanuts, you'll get treated like a monkey!

Since I have been with SIA this is what has happened to my pay (all of these supposedly in my contract-ha ha):
-loss of provident fund (10%)
-pay cut (16.5%) SARS as an excuse-already back in profit
-no pay leave
-7% pay cut after 9/11 even though the company made over 1 billion dollars (sing). (not repaid)
-loss of 6% increment
-2 1/2 yr protracted negotiation over the last collective agreement. Probable further cuts in the current negotiations for the CA to be concluded by March 31st.

Singapore supposedly prides itself on lack of graft and corruption, and in today's paper SIA was 3rd in Singapore in rating of corporate governance. What a crock. They are a bunch of liars and cheats only interested in profits so they can pay dividends to Temasek Holdings-the biggest shareholder-government owned, of course. The employees are mere chattle.

If you are still interested, before you even draw your first pay cheque, be prepared to put down a $45,000 sing bank guarantee for 5 years (if you are not type rated)+a paper guarantee of $120,000 on top of that. Add 2 months housing deposit and school fees deposit and you are 60 to 70 thousand in the hole already. You can buy a car now on 100% credit, but you will be in negative equity on it for at least 3 years. Remember that when you buy car insurance and if you write the car off you still owe money to the bank!

Still interested? You really want that type rating? O.K.:
-captain's salary $8,000 (all figures in sing $)
-housing $3,000 month married/$2,750 single (taxable)
-school fees up to $700 month for each child (maximum 2) (taxable)
-productivity 0-70 hrs $45 hour/71-100 $67.50 hour/positioning $22.50 hour
-2.5% annual increment
-13 month pay
-profit sharing (ha ha-good luck for the next couple of years)
-4 weeks annual leave
-1 firm Y upgradable to J for you and family per year
-unlimited I.D. 75s (Y only) (because it's a cargo outfit stupid!)
-4 I.D. 90s (Y only) for you and family (again-because it's a cargo outfit stupid!)

You'll be around the 20% tax bracket. I'm not going to do the sums for you. Good luck, you'll need it! I'm outta here, too tired of being treated like a monkey.

[highcirrus]

freightdriver

Please take note of the post from Mack Number in which he gives a sketch of life both in SQ “mainline” and the "new airline", SIA Cargo – he’s absolutely spot on! Please also consider that you are applying for an FO position in SIA Cargo, which attracts no housing and education allowance and far less salary/productivity allowance than captain positions and, in this new entity, SIA Cargo, will attract even less than your “mainline” FO compatriots.

I have mentioned in an earlier post that the 45 cadets currently under training in Australia and all destined for SIA Cargo, have been obliged to undertake not to join Alpa-S and so not give this separate company the headache which the “mainline” company has, of discussing pay and conditions periodically, rather than arbitrarily dictating them to a bonded serfdom.

Mack Number

Great post and if you haven’t got outta Singapore by the time you read this, keep ‘em coming!

[vastusmedialis]

To all those out there considering SIA mailine or Cargo;" YOU MUST BE MAD"

Read the threads 'very carefully'.

Some of you may be hungry; you will be hungrier and very p...... off in a short time once you join.

Do yourselves a favour and apply elsewhere to someone who might treat you better.

[C Lips]

Hi Guys

Can any provide the salary and conditions for SIA cargo for an expat F/O type rated on type.


Cheers

:ok:

[millerscourt]

Clips Welcome back from planet Zog where I assume you have been these last few weeks.

[Bokomoko]

More than 50 replies during two weeks, several complaints, advices and all information required... for nothing:{. Well, CL check the Far East index and you can get some details.:hmm:

[BlueEagle]

Suggest you read this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107965) thread CLips.

[SIA300]

and don't forget to read about the impending 'showdown' between David (us) and :mad: Goliath (s'pore govt)

that should give you a good idea of how the govt will deal with 'confrontational' pilots.

[freightdriver]

Ok..ok.. :(

First things first, thank you to all that have replied in a positive note.

To say the least, I am very discouraged at this point and that includes my better half. Considering that I am very vocal and have in the past active in starting a pilot group movement in taking a stance aggainst bad company policies in my former life...

It's just too bad that SIA management do not realize what they are loosing by adapting this attitude towards the pilot group....given, that we are a hard crowd to please but at the end of the day we are a smart bunch that knows what needs to be done when the tough gets going...and when it's time to tighten our belts...
etops777
I will take up your generous offer on CAL info I will pm you.

My present gig is ideal exept salary and equipment, hired as a local (dual national)..but living like a king in Jakarta, can't afford a vacation outside the national border coz of this thing called currency conversion....:8

Comes home almost every night...short flights nver more than 4 landings in one sched.

But like I have said, it would be nice to move on to a better equipment and salary...my kids will eventually grow up and I have to send them to college....not to mention the dream of showing them the world on free travel pass...ok ok...I will wake up now and smell the rotten roses....

But I am sure something will turn up, so for those that have old books on FMS or fancy equipment in the aircraft thay don't need anymore pls send them my way...:ok:

BTW, the apt for 2200SIN$ per mo is a 3 bedroom / 2 bath apt with a full kitchen. Master bedroom is 4X4m and the 2 smaller room is 3X3. Living and Dining is in one open space (not sure on size) but must be round 4X8m..kitchen and laundy room is separated...I sound like a realtor..

Ironic, a mate of mine was living there for 3 years he worked there for a flg airline (neighbouring country) as line engineer (got paid sin$6000/ mo and they pay for the apt and schooling for up to 2 kids)

:suspect:

[CDRW]

If you are interested and have children take note of Mach No post and the schooling allowance.

$700 / month. Now you can get a fine schooling in the local schools and that amount will cover fees. However - if you do not want the education system of Singapore and prefer international schools the sums are a tad different.

There are numerous international schools and all are in the same ball park figure of costs.

Yearly Grade 7 fees with all the "other" costs tagged on ( i.e. building fund levy).

s$19200 / year. So your monthly shortfall is just shy of s$1000. Then you got to get them there - bus is approx $150/ term plus a fair amount of taxi for all the afternoon activities - of course you can always buy a car ( ha ha ha ha ha on the freighter salary I hear you all chortle) - as a guesstimate to run a car here - you can count on S$1500 - S$1700 - all in. If you have three kids forget it - you will not make ends meet, and you will probably end up having to send the family back to your homeland.

[manfromnorth]

There may be for and against the company, however does anyone knows the FACTS for Capt and F/O, salary etc in US$. Please refrain from speculations.

Cheers

[millerscourt]

manfromnorth FACTS ??? The salaries are widely available if you open your eyes and do a little research.

Salaries are in SGD so do your own conversion!!!!!!!!!

[freightdriver]

With the USD dropping lower aggainst the SIN$, just last week I got an exchange rate of only 1.68 SIN$ for my uncle Sam's buck (1 USD):ugh:

[burnoff]

For those who intent on applying to SQ Cargo, it pays to read the following :
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110087

The t&c at this outfit will changes at the drop of a hat, depending on which side of the bed some acting minister wakes up on.

You have been warned, try not to end up like a bunch of twisted and angry people who currently work here.

[Tiller Torquer]

Hmmm,

I think the negative posts do a good job of summing up life in SIA and SIN. It costs a lot of money to join - bond, house & school deposits, moving costs and the like that you all know about. It costs all of your money to live here - how it breaks down just depends on how you like to live, but it will take all your money, and you'll always be explaining to "Her Indoors" why all these days away are not translating into spare cash for family fun!

As one who is close to leaving, I can tell you for me that it is not about the work or the guys I go to work with (they're great), but about money and the unremitting anti-pilot stance of the government and very senior management.

To make Singapore able to stay competitive in the face of the improving abilities of its competitors, the government has decided to reduce Spore's cost base in general and fixed elements of salary in particular. To do this it needs all the unions to be springloaded to the obedient position. It sees the "a labourer is worthy of his hire..." approach of the pilot's union to be a direct challenge. All the signs are there that other current 'benefits' are under scrutiny. I can hardly wait! And probably won't.

I can hear some of you saying "Well if you are too expensive to be competitive, then you should be prepared to take a pay cut. The greater good and all that." Indeed. It's a matter of balance, staff welfare and the market. There are few airline groups making S$100 million a month profit as SIA does and even fewer paying all their staff substantially below the market rate. SIA's policy is even more perverse - it is actully content that the flood of "expensive" long-time, experienced mainline pilots that are leaving can be replaced by "cheap" cargo pilots. I seem to recall a core value that has something to do with 'Concern for Staff'.

Just in case you think I'm just worrying over nothing, at a time when the company is making S$100 million profit per month, I, like many others, have seen the value of my contract (sic) with SIA decrease in excess of 30%. Given the cost of living in SIN, the devaluation of the currency (around 20%, I believe, this year against most the world's major currencies) I simply cannot justify spending my earning days this way. Yes, the kit and colleagues are great, but what about quality of life, saving for the future, for pension....? This is the reality of my experience. It could be yours.

Of course, everybody's circumstances are unique. If you come to SCargo you'll fly a decent airplane, well maintained, do lots of flying and eat and drink down-route with good guys. Cargo line management and the DFO are quite OK and there will be opportunities for seat swaps and training in reasonably short time.

If your family moves easily, and is flexible, the chances are good that they will settle quickly and really enjoy living in Singapore - good food, good schools, low crime, safe streets.

Summary - If you don't need money, don't mind the tension of a working culture where your employer is routinely in breach of the spirit, to say nothing of the letter, of the contract they have signed with you, then for a short time this may be the place for you. I would only counsel that you are very realistic about what you need to make working here sustainable.

G'luck and as DUB ATC said when asked about the wx "If your half as good as the other man you'll be fine!"

[74world]

Hello,

I am not really interested but I have received the terms and conditions of employment with SIA cargo....I have to say that I was shocked about the salaries and the conditions for both Capts and FOs!!!!!

Does anyone knows how many desparate pilots have applied?

I now fell very sorry for anyone having to sign such a f***** contract........

Cheers....

;)

[freightdriver]

74world

For the benefit of the pro and mostly contra discussion could you share the content of the contract say...on this forum (if pprune would allow it) I am curious as hell and I am sure a lot of other guys too.

:(

To Tiller Torquer,
Did you complete the 5 year tour of duty ? and moving on now?
Well said piece of advise and good luck to wherever you're goin to!

Freightdriver, (has been and probably will continue to be....):ok:

[74world]

Hi Freightdriver,

I'm sorry but I have tried to attached on this reply the ACTUAL crap that I've received from Singapore airlines regarding the terms and conditions of employment but it didn't work!!!!! :mad:

If you want me to send it to you then email me at this address:

[email protected]

I will send you the info, but believe me, it's really s***!!!!

I don't know how much you are earning with your job, but to join SIA you really need to be desperate.......for ex, an FO with my current company earns more than a Capt in SIA and we don't have to live in Singapore.

Cheers.....:E

[EasyGo-Lucky?]

FreightDriver

I notice you and others mentioning the attractive higher salaries offered by SIA Cargo. Please look at this rationally by comparing the standard of living you can expect in the required location based on the take home salary.

As you are located in Indonesia you will understand that a Garuda Captains salary would make him a pauper in Singapore but he lives like a King in Indonesia enjoying a much higher standard of living than a "Mainline" Singapore Airlines Captain. The value of any salary is only applicable to the cost of living of where you are located and it is wrong to makes comparisons with salaries elsewhere in the world.

By the way there will be no transport allowances for those in SIA Cargo, you make your own way to work and no First Officers will be employed on Expat Terms.

I'm in a bit of a rush presently but will try and provide some more information at a later time provided I have not left SIA by then.

[speedtwoten]

just out of couriusity are they (SIAGARGO) does reply to our application either rejected or accepted;)

[Mantaro85]

74world which airlines do u work for and where u located now??? how much are u earning now anyway??
;)

[74world]

Hi Mantaro 85,

To answer your questions, I am working for a cargo airline, FO on a 744, the base is Europe and my net pay this year is 46.000 British pounds NET + Expenses......

You can see that I can not be interested at all by the SIA cargo pay and conditions even as a Capt.

Good luck to you anyway if you can afford to work for them, I can't!

Cheers....:E

[pitotman]

I just received that interview date and the T & C's! I was stunned at what they are offering.............crumbs really! I for one would not work for that and feel sorry for those that do.......!

Funny how the average person's perception of SQ is so high and those of us in the industry have a completely different view of them! I can make more money flying a dhc-6 on floats than what cargo pays any of their pilots............


We live in sad times....:{

[CDRW]

Pitotman - you are absolutely correct - to Joe Public SQ is held in very high regard and for very good reason. It is one of the best services in the world and people will pay the premium to fly SQ. Business and first class are nearly always full with full fare paying punters.

However to work for them - thats a different story - on par with Aeroflot, but if enough prospective pilots to their cargo operation and shortly the recruitment of more 777 drivers, tell them exactly what they think of the package then things may change - but not until a service fails to go will anything be done about the situation.

[74world]

pitotman,

You are absolutely correct the money in SIA is :mad: , if you take the job even as a Capt you are "flying for food"....

Good luck anyway....:uhoh:

[BlueEagle]

As an ex expat with SIA for ten years my 'take' on this is a bit different.
I don't think they really want your average Westerner, accustomed to Western pay scales. I think they are planning to fill the vacancies with lads from Indonesia, India, Sri Lanka etc. for whom the pay will be acceptable.

SIA have access to all the current pilot markets and can gear their offering to the market they wish to attract. If the terms and conditions are not to your liking I don't think they want you!

Sorry, just the devil's advocate coming out. I do believe that SIA are treating their work force very badly and seriously need to get their act together if they don't want to lose the plot and their passengers completely.

[ClimbGodammitClimb]

Blue Eagle,

U are absolutely correct. The pilots SQ will be looking at are mainly the ones not type-rated and will be willing to get a rating for low pay and be bonded for 5 years. The training practically doesn't cost SQ anything as it'll be done in-house and the 5-year bond is what SQ wants. However, don't be tricked into believing the contract will not be changed (for worse) midway, simply ask SQ pilots who happened to be employed during 2003.

[Freehills]

And for those who are desperate to live in SIN, AHK allegedly will have SIN as a base for their A300 crews.

So, will be alternative to SIA Cargo

[Jim Morehead]

Well...I do miss getting to Singapore as I used to. And the wings are ceratinly good at Hooters on the river.

Of course,China Airlines 744 pilots pick up a Singapore Freighter starting this month as the last 747-200 gets parked.

Can you leave an application at Hooter's????

[pitotman]

Here is the email I just sent to the recruiter for SQ Cargo about my interview in Jan..........Yeah I am going to fly all the way to SQ for and interview for **** money and **** conditions and pay for my hotel...........


Jo,

Thank you for your prompt reply! I will not be attending due to the terms and conditions being well below industry standard. I would liked to have attended, however in my 10 years of flying and the several interviews that I have done with 2 of the worlds top airlines have I never had to endure any of the costs for interviews. If Singapore Cargo improves their Terms & Conditions and pays for a hotel in the interview process please let me know and I will consider the contract.

I wish you all the success in your quest for qualified candidates however with your current package I do not foresee Professional Pilots coming to Singapore anytime soon.

Thank you for your time, and good luck,


..........they just do not get it! To think that 8 years ago on a trip back from the Maldives I would have given my left one to fly for these clowns............! See what happens when they bend one.........! JUST SAY NO!

[millerscourt]

pitotman When coming for interview for SQ you also have to pay for the Medical of around $500 inaddition to Hotel etc etc.

You also travel subload with no Upgrade even if Business or First is empty!!

As Blue Eagle rightly says SQ is no longer a job for Pilots from the expensive "First World" countries.

Anyone thinking a B744 Rating is worth 5+ yeras then think again as to where you could move onto with a rating which by then will be just Cargo Outfits and a few Majors where you won't get a look in.

Any guesses what Tiger Airlines will be paying?????

Where are they going to get these Pilots from?????????????????

[speedtwoten]

pitotman, you are invited to SIN for interview but you have to pay for that?????, rare thing's those SINCARGO, who are invited have to pay guys funny thing's those SINCARGO, or is it use by SQ anybody invited have to pay really rare and funny those SINCARGO:eek:

[pitotman]

I drink alot but not enough to understand what you just tried to write......:D

I know the tone was sarcasm however, did not get all of it!


Fly Safe, but not for peanuts!

[Insider107]

pilotman

What you did was entirely correct. Now if everyone else who is flirting (misguidedly I might add) with the idea of joining SIA Cargo or even SIA mainline did the same, guess what, things would change. Sure as eggs are eggs, Jokilla would run squealing to the powers, telling them that the naughty pilots were up to no good again. But guess what, suddenly hotac/airport transfers, seat upgrades, free medicals and sensible terms & conditions would become available. It's called market forces; so beloved down Singapore way!

Further, as millerscourt has mentioned, what is really going to be the value of a B744 rating and five year's freighting time when you are eventually released from your subsistence level servitude with the world's worst airline to be employed with?

We're all working our bonds off to get paid our contracted Pilots' Provident Fund (now unilaterally junked as a "cost saving measure") cash before leaving asap, grinding our teeth and swallowing our disgust at how dumb we were to join SIA in the first place. Please don't make our mistake and join this vale of tears!

[Rosbif]

I read the whole thread. Does anyone know if AHK is going to have similar standards, pay etc to its parent and sibling. If so, then competition will do its work. AHK appears to be a quality outfit. Does anyone have the real deal there? Could be SIA Cargo's worst nightmare. Also does anyone know if DHL is involved at AHK? A lot of QR A300 types are sniffing around. Might improve things there too when30 guys leave. :ok:

[Insider107]

The latest, filtering from the fourth floor, is that SIA Cargo has received five hundred applications from assorted misguided wannabees throughout the world (do these guys never read pprune?) and of this bunch, fourty or so were deemed, by the powers, to be reasonably in the frame for consideration as B744 drivers. Snag was, of course, when they were sim checked as part of the recruitment procedure, none of them passed!

But then is this surprising when considering the derisory package on offer and thus the quality of applicants? The metaphor concerning primates and peanuts springs to mind!

Seems, hence, like the idea of a stand-alone SIA Cargo has been shelved for the moment, pending the introduction of the A380 in 2006 and the inevitable rapid demise of the passenger version of the B744 within SIA, when marooned ex-pats will then be offered the stark choice – “accept the garbage that's on offer, or push off.”

It would obviously not be logical to improve the package and thus attract applicants of the required calibre and experience.

[jstars2]

The buzz round here is that the locals will definitely go to the A380 (Quick 180 on sentiment – now Airbus good, Boeing bad) leaving the ex-pats the B744 pickings. The far-sighted of this latter group who are not making imminent plans to leave, are now manoeuvring onto the A340-500 to avoid the situation on B744 contract end, where they are indeed offered “SIA Cargo or the road”.

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

Its amazing. I worked for SQ Cargo in the 80s on the operational side and it sucked then. How a company so
well known for its in-flight service, would treat its employees so badly. They couldn't understand it then, and obviously from this topic, dont understand it now. NOT everyone wants to be a
Singapore Girl and considers it an honor to work for them.
I feel really sorry for the group of pilots that Hire on for
Tiger Air, they will probably have to PAY SQ for the job.

[VneII]

Now I am truely disheartened :{

Having just read the entire thread I see that Australias disease has spread into SE Asia. I thought conditions here were bad and considered that paying AU$25000 for a B73 rating (read job) would be the end of pilot mistretment in General Aviation and the first stepping stone on the path to the dream jet job and life style. Obviously not. I'm sure that I would be the type of candidate SIA Cargo would be looking for, all the ticks in the boxes but no rating and already used to working for peanuts in Oz. Reading this post is highly discouraging and I wonder how much worse it will get before pilots actually learn to stick together and make things better for ourselves.

Best of luck to all.

VneII

[Jim Morehead]

Insider107...Did I read your posting correctly that at SQ Cargo that NONE of 500 passed the sim check? Is that for Captain or F/O?

[The Prisoner]

Jim, not so much upstairs, have we :} Only 40 were deemed suitable for interview.
The wings may be good at "Hooters", but they really should change the name ... 32A know what I mean ha ha

Like Singapore as a whole, offers so much, but delivers so little.

[southernmtn]

"Like Singapore as a whole, offers so much, but delivers so little.".....

And you forgot to add,"and demands your blood, sweat and tears,....."

[jstars2]

VneII

Re: “I'm sure that I would be the type of candidate SIA Cargo would be looking for, all the ticks in the boxes but no rating and already used to working for peanuts in Oz.”

The last bit is absolutely spot-on “…….already used to working for peanuts”. Yup, just what they’re looking for!

[highcirrus]

Jim Morehead

Insider107 is correct in that nobody has been recruited for SIA Cargo. The numbers involved are: 500 (approx) applicants for both captain and FO positions – of these 2 were consider worth sim checking – neither passed.

Armchair general Bey was initially hugely smug at the response to the ads inviting application to SIA Cargo, seeing this as a vindication of his view that SIA is a great place to work. He had, of course, failed to note that a majority of applicants were unsuited to the airline’s requirements.

[Jim Morehead]

highcirrus and others

Does that all mean that there will be NO SIA cargo and the experiment failed? Maybe they would be interested in some of those Marginal candidates at the "other" airlines...<bg>!

[Phil Squares]

Don't know quite how to put this, but I went to SIN for the "interview" process. Apparently, I was one of those who slipped through the process. I was successful in the simulator/medical and interview.

Was subsequently offered a class date. I did pass it up, not so much because of the paltry wages, but more for another position. I can tell you that given the company I am working for right now, SIA cargo working conditions are light years better.

I am rated on the -400 so there is no bond. For me, I was willing to see what happened, but fate played it's hand and another position surfaced. :cool:

[Insider107]

Phil Squares

Congratulations on passing the "interview" process and also on not joining SIA Cargo.

The story that has filtered from reliable sources on the SQ ¡§four floor¡¨ is substantially correct. The only embellishment is that ¡§nobody passed¡¨ ¡V a face saver to avoid admitting that candidates declined to accept the offer of servitude with SIA Cargo

[southernmtn]

Hi PhilSquqres,
Is it true that the invitation by SIA to Singapore for their interview, was on a sub-load(standby) economy class ticket, and that hotel and all expenses in Singapore were your own?

Would appreciate some clarification from you, for all to know.

Thanks.

[Phil Squares]

Southernmtn...

You don't want to know what all I know, it might fill the head of a pin. But, yes, the trip to SIN is subload and you pay for the hotels and medical. However, I will say that is the norm for SQ.

In 1996, I went to SQ for an interview/medical/sim for the then new (to them) 340. Same deal, you pay for everything and subload on the flight in coach no less. So, the fact that the terms hadn't changed is no real surprise.

But, I will say the whole interview process is very low keyed. The sim is very straight forward, no hidden adgenda. The medical is a regular medical, not an astronaut physical. No fiber optic camera through your nose!!!

That's about it, other than the pay, I could think of plenty of worse places to be.....
:cool:

[jstars2]

Phil Squares

I'm afraid it's only when you'd have been in SIA a little time that you would realise the error of your assumption "I could think of plenty of worse places to be....."

[Anotherpost75]

The word from SIN is that SIA have at last been able to recruit three or four captains from Argentina (not sure which airline they are ex) for SIA Cargo and on the new pay scale (S$7,000/USD4,130 per month).

What is even newer is the S$130,000/USD77,000 bank guarantee, required to be deposited in a Singapore bank, in addition to the S$300,000, five year bond. For some reason, SIA seems concerned that these pilots might suddenly realize in the near future that they have made the biggest mistake in their lives and wish to skip the bond forthwith!

[SLT]

Had an email from SIA Cargo the other day, saying that they had re-evaluated my CV, and would I fill out their application form! (They said no initially because I barely had the 2500 jet hours). But I reckon from what those in the know have said on here - they can keep their job! Thanks to the power of PPRuNe!!!!!

[highcirrus]

SLT

You might not realize it right now but you’ve just made the best decision in your life.

[JABAL]

SIA Strives for First Class Service, First Class Infrastructure, BUT THIRD CLASS (ass)PAY!!!!!!!!!!!:*

[Ramrise]

G'day,

being that this thread has lapsed a little lately I was wondering if anyone knows whether there has been any takers lately, other than the four cap's from south america?? If they really need people that bad it seems that eventually T&C will have to change... or what??

Brgds,

[SFontaine]

Tad bit of advise,

For now, stay away, talk of changes on the way though.

[Ramrise]

Hi SFontaine,

Can you elaborate on the changes possibly underway? It seems as if the only changes that will help is more money, both as pay and as better educational- and housing allowance.

Nobody wants to move an entire family around the world if all you see are sticks and no carrots.

Brgds,

Ramrise
:D :D

[CAPT146]

Could this be done as a commuting job. i.e. Perth to Sing!

[highcirrus]

Ramrise

Please be under no illusion that the only change around here will be the relationship between the "variable” and the fixed elements of the pay package to produce a total monthly figure the same or less than presently paid. The idea being that in the next financial “crisis” (real or manufactured), it’s the employees who get it in the neck, not the shareholders. To imagine that there will be “more money, both as pay and as better educational- and housing allowance.” Is so ludicrous and naively optimistic as to be laughable.

Have you not been properly reading the SIA threads over the past few months? What makes you think that a rapacious and inhuman organization such as SIA is going to change over night into a reasonable, fair, HR orientated paragon of virtue?

You're far better off staying in the dream world you obviously live in.

[Ramrise]

HighCirrus,

I most certainly have no illusions about SIA. I just don't know precisely what 'the deal is'. Hence the search for info.

Your input is valued as it supports the opinions found in 99% of the replies. If you have any other information I would very much appreciate it. I have had a very good job the past 6 to 7 years, still do, but even that has changed and that has prompted me to look around.

Brgds,

Ramrise

[RatherBeSailing]

SIA and Scandinavian Airlines, SAS, through Lagarhus Aviation Consulting, are apparently collaborating in a deal whereby excess pilots from SAS would be given a 4 year contract with SIA at fairly good wages and benefits, while remaining on the SAS seniority list during this leave of absence. The interest among SAS pilots is very large, due primarily to the fact that very few know about "pprune" and even fewer have read this thread, unfortunately. 100's of pilots are showing up for scheduled SIA information meetings around Scandinavia. The high interest is understandable given the fact that SAS is fast going the way of Sabena and SwissAir, that is, towards oblivion (What is it with airlines begining with "S"???)

The deal is as follows:

Captains pay of roughly US$9400/month
FO pay US$6300/month

Housing allowance, for both Cpt and FO, US$1500/month
Per diem roughly US$1200/month
Child education allowance
NO PENSION PAY IN, but SAS will pay this until the end of 2006.


Sounds pretty good, but the training bond and dreaded bank guarentee is still required.

For a Scandinavian pilot suffering under the weight of the worlds highest taxes (between 60 and 75% tax expense on your total wage) the tax rate in SIN is very appealing.

And with a SAS CEO and management apparently well schooled in the ways of SIA's armchair generals, many SAS pilots want nothing more than to get away.

I believe SIA can expect at least 100 well trained and experienced SAS pilots taking their offer. We'll see in a month or so.

Rather Be Sailing:cool:

[millerscourt]

RBS

If this is true it sounds similar to the South African Airways deal of 6 years ago when a large number joined SQ on unpaid leave with the right to return to SAA after their Bondage was up. Most joined on the A340 and then onto the B744. Only a very few returned to SAA in the end. Three I think. One went to EK and another to USA. SAA put up the Bond money so Pilots did not have to find the money. The salary was the same as all other SQ expats.No special deal there.

This the best way to join any of these Airlines secure in the knowledge you are not a Prisoner for Life!!

[Ramrise]

RBSailing,


Exactly. Alot of people are very interested in this deal. The questions for many are: Is the housting allowance sufficient and what about the child educational allowance.

I know that international schools as well as housing is very expensive so those are the big questions.

Any comments??

Brgds,

Ramrise

[CDRW]

Ramrise - if what has been printed here is the deal - it is good - I suspect tho that the US$ and S$ have got muddled up - if that is not the case then these guys will be coming in higher than 5 year cpatains.

A housing allowance of US1500 - (S$2500) well yes that could be a bit of a challenge - it depends also if the company "gives" that to you - if thats the case a "comfy" two room could be found but would not suit anyone with ankle biters - talking of which ankle biters cost a bloody fortune to educate - the SQ policy is to give $700/ month plus 50% of the remainder - and this is taxed don't forget! International schools have run rampant in their charges.

One other thing that may be interesting is that not every one who tries joins this establichment will get thru "the training" and that word is used in the very broadest sense. To the SAS guys - SQ will operate very differently - and of course to SQ, SAS pilots will be needing alot of re-education - and the older the applicant the harder it is.

[422]

Once again the fellas in SQ are getting screwed.

Timing is well set, just when CA is about to be concluded.

No way out guys. You just got cheated again..( Nothin New)

with the CA done, SQ management can start recruiting again.


P.s: suckers
:ok:

[RatherBeSailing]

Yep, I'm talking USA greenbacks, not SIN dollars. Just to clarify.
The offered wages are very near what SAS pilots already make here in Scandinavia, so it will be very enticing indeed to take a four year leave with SIA, what with 15-20% tax rate in SIN and year-round summer and all. The interest so far from SAS pilots is huge.

RatherBeSailing:cool:

[millerscourt]

RBS

If as you say it is US$ then obviously SAS are paying the Salaries and not SQ. Yet again another Airline which has mismanaged its business (SAS) backed by the taxpayers of Denmark,Sweden and Norway is coming to the rescue of SQ who are unable to recruit Pilots owing to the low Salaries and the Singapore Dollar fall which makes that salary even lower.

[DrowsyDriver]

How about rostering?

My info is that you spend around 18 days away from homebase.
Is it the big 3-weeks suitcase case or do they split up the duty in sevarel blocks.
Any form of bidding system?

regards
DD

[Birdieboy]

I just got message from my initial interview with SIA that I am welcome to Singapore for a second interview and a medical but after reading through this thread I must say that I am not so sure yet. 4 years is a long time, especially if the working conditions are like what you guys are saying here.

The deal between SAS and SIA is as follows:
(all in S$, NOT US$!)

Captain
Basic pay 9000 after linetraining

Flying allowance
0 ¡V 70 hrs SGD 60 per hour
70 ¡V 100 hrs SGD 80 per hour

„X Annual Wage Supplement
„X One month¡¦s Basic Salary
„X Service Increment
„X Reviewed on an annual basis, depending on Company performance and market norms
„X Profit Sharing Scheme
„X SIA Group profit-sharing formula or the SIA Cargo profit sharing formula, when it is in place

Relocation allowance 3000 per month (cash)

F/O
Basic pay 5400 after linetraining

Flying allowance
„X 0 ¡V 70 hrs SGD 35 per hour
„X 70 ¡V 100 hrs SGD 46 per hour
For passive transfer: SGD 17.50 per hour

Relocation allowance same as for Captain.

As I sais before, not sure if this is a good deal concidering that I already have a job in SAS that for the moment looks solid.

Any recommendations out there before I do something stupid?

Birdieboy

[Fly3]

Recommendation: DON'T DO IT! You will regret it forever.

[In the slot]

Glad birdie boy has cleared up the whole $SIN versus $US issue!!
He is correct! Believe me, if it WAS $US, then nobody other than your SAS colleagues would be talking to you on the flight deck or in any crew room!

I hear the SQ guys are extremely p****d off with constant pay cuts and maltreatment. Dont expect a friendly welcome at all, thats from LOCALS and EXPATS alike!

Good luck to all,whatever you decide!

[highcirrus]

Birdieboy

"Any recommendations out there before I do something stupid?"

You bet! Don't, under any circumstances ever consider leaving SAS for SIA.

The salary scale you have been quoted is derisory and looks like that shortly to be forced on us bonded serfs (watch these pages as LKY has summoned the "unions" tomorrow, 5 April, to receive the tablets from the mountain) plus, as a matter of government policy, the S$ is being devalued by stealth, to boost export volume from the Republic.

You would be crazy (or stupid) to countenance joining SIA in the face of these circumstances.

[tebuan]

folks,

please bear in mind all that has been brought up in this forum. (also refer to sia pilots under political pressure). one of our union members has basically lost his livelihood for espousing his point of view and choice of lifestyle. whilst some, perhaps many may differ on the definition of the crime, i'm sure all will agree the punishment is far too extreme-but unfortunately befits the singaporean ethos.

consider your options very carefully. you may be taking away what little ammunition the locals have both in monetary negotiations as well as career prospects. the welcome you receive may be commensurate with these feelings.

best wishes

t

[jstars2]

Birdieboy

I thought that you and your SAS colleagues might like to read a great posting that accurately describes the way SIA have in the past and continue to this day to behave towards the head count (err – sorry – I mean valued professional staff).

Please be aware that exactly the same can happen to you and your colleagues if you sign up to the “contract” on offer. The whole thing can change (for the worse) at the whim of the Singapore Government and so is not worth the paper it is printed on.

I’m sure that the post’s author will not mind me reproducing his excellent piece.

wotwazat - 6 January 2004

The Facts about SQ!

The situation regarding the pay of SIA pilots has been so confused by 9/11, SARS and the Singapore governments pronouncements on the subject that there appears to be a need to get back to basics in the hope that a little common sense might prevail. I write this in the hope that a thread may develop that deals with facts and avoids descending into a slanging match.

Fact 1.
The Collective Agreement ( SIA pilots pay package) that expired on 14 Dec 2003 came in to effect on 15 Dec 2000. This agreement replaced the one that expired on 20 Nov 1998 and the pay scales where thus backdated to that time. The pay scales applicable to SIA pilots prior to the present pay cut are therefore just over five years old.

Fact 2.
Following 9/11 SIA cut staff pay in order to “avoid retrenchments and reduce losses”. The pay was never returned and the group made a profit in the region of $680,000,000. The pay cuts therefore increased a profit rather than reduced a loss.

Fact 3.
In response to the effects of SARS SIA sought massive reductions in salary that amounted to nearly 40% when all factors were taken in to account. They eventually achieved a reduction of 16.5% in the case of Captains but the reduction in take home pay was very much higher when reduced flying and no pay leave were added in to the equation.

Fact 4.
SIA made it’s first ever quarterly loss in Q1 of 2003. That loss was recouped by the end of Q2 (September). SIA will nevertheless continue to cut staff pay until the end of March whilst making very considerable profits and at a time when staff are working as hard as they have ever done.

Fact 5.
SIA will repay the deducted salary plus 15% if the end of year profit exceeds $600,000,000. That 15% of deducted salary is less than the bonus that would be paid under the normal bonus scheme.

Fact 6.
SIA have unilaterally abolished payments of 10% of basic salary into a provident scheme that affects approximately 1200 staff without replacing those contributions.

Fact 7.
The SIA pilots union (ALPAS) agreed to the measures taken under Facts 2 & 3 above under the guidance of their leadership. This was the major factor leading to the eventual vote of no confidence in that leadership.

Fact 8.
Much has been made of “performance related pay”. The pay structure in SIA already takes account of this. A pilot who does not fly at all in a month receives 48% less than one who flies the legal maximum number of hours. In addition, bonus payments account for a 28% difference in pay between a no profit year and a maximum bonus year. The target of 30% is thus already massively exceeded.

Fact 9.
ALPAS and the non-union pilots of SIA have made no threats against the Company.

Fact 10.
Government Ministers from the Senior Minister down have made repeated statements implying that the pilots of SIA are threatening the future of SIA and the economy of Singapore itself.


Those are enough facts to be going on with. A perusal of the above suggests to me that SIA have panicked in reaction to the novel experience of losing money for a few months against a background of making money for many years. Whilst cost saving measures were clearly required, the severity and duration of the pay cuts inflicted on the staff show scant regard for the supposed “Core Values” of SIA as well as the financial and spiritual welfare of staff and amount to a supreme demonstration of appalling Human Resource management.

The “confrontational pilots’ have seen a far from generous pay package (by international airline standards) that is already five years out of date eroded at every turn by a management that appears intent on destroying the very trust and dedication that a very good airline was built on. It would be a sad day if the pilots of SIA were not concerned by the direction being taken by the management of SIA apparently with the full support of the government.

Ministers have made much of the importance of SIA, Changi Airport and Singapore’s air hub status. In view of that importance it is time to stop the attacks on the goose that lays the golden egg. Perhaps the generals should return to the armed forces and one of the worlds great airlines should be run by airline professionals that can make the most of the fantastic advantages enjoyed by SIA. The staff are available to help continue the remarkable success of SIA but if the present attitude prevails they may not be available much longer.

SIA pilots are forbidden from discussing these matters by Company rules. Are there any white knights out there who can help to point out the injustice of this sad situation?

[jstars2]

Straits Times, 05.04.04

100 CAPTAINS, FIRST OFFICERS SHOW INTEREST
SIA, cargo arm recruiting pilots

By Karamjit Kaur

SINGAPORE Airlines (SIA) and its cargo arm are looking for experienced pilots and more than 100 captains and first officers from the SAS Group - the largest Nordic airline - are interested.

Interviews began a week ago and those picked will undergo a brief training stint before flying for the SIA group.

However, these pilots will not be on SIA's permanent payroll. It is understood that they will be with SIA on a four-year contract because SAS now has a surplus of pilots. They will return to their parent company when the contract expires.

The current recruitment drive comes about eight months after SIA axed 26 pilots, following its first-ever loss of $312 million in the three months from April to June last year.

SIA, which employs about 1,800 pilots, is looking to increase capacity, now that Sars has blown over and the turbulence that hit the air travel industry after the Iraq war has subsided.

Speaking to The Straits Times in a telephone interview from Denmark last Friday, Captain Per Schroeder, 46, SAS vice-president (operations), said the airline was approached by SIA Cargo, which is aiming to build its own pool of pilots.

SIA Cargo, which flies to 67 cities in 36 countries, became a separate company within the SIA group in July 2001. It is wholly owned by the parent company.

It operates a fleet of 13 Boeing 747-400 Freighter planes and markets the belly-hold space in SIA's passenger aircraft.

Capt Schroeder said: 'We have a surplus of pilots at this time, so when the offer came, we opened it up to all our pilots and more than 100 were interested.

'We are informed that the pilots who are chosen will fly for SIA Cargo and the parent company as well.

'It is a four-year contract at the end of which the pilots will return to us.'

Industry observers say such arrangements between airlines are common and a fuss-free way to add or cut the number of pilots to meet the current demand.

When contacted, SIA's spokesman said recruitment is an 'ongoing process', adding: 'We are recruiting a number of experienced pilots to meet the anticipated increase in services in the coming future.'

She did not want to comment on the deal with SAS.

Captain Mok Hin Choon, president of the Air Line Pilots Association-Singapore, said: 'We will be discussing the implications of the move with the management.'

SIA Cargo's spokesman declined to divulge details, saying only that the airline would take delivery of three more planes in the next few years and is now hiring to keep pace with its growing fleet.

Separately, the airline has advertised for experienced captains and first officers in last week's issue of Flight International, an aviation magazine.

[crl]

So far the talks and discussions on contract SAS pilots coming over are much intense and most guys on line are waiting for some opportunities to vent out some anger and furstrations that the whole episode had caused. For the first time we heard some Instructors are real fed up and they'll form the first "welcoming party" for the poor SAS chaps...So, don't expect smiles and certainly DON'T try telling us how immature this behaviour is as I would like to see how far anyone will go if this happens in CX, BA or Qantas..

Now of course some will counter by saying it's none of their (SAS pilots) fault, I can respect that observation but right now.... quite a few "eager", "friendly" and "helpful" Capts and FOs are waiting anxiously.. knowing that in Singapore Inc, this scheme of getting surplus pilots with someone else subsidizing is DEFINITELY gonna happen (considering SQ gonna save quite a few cts on this) and it will be shafted down our throats once more...without doubts.. The darn thing about this country or SIA (no difference really..) is that NOBODY listens till something BAD happens!!



All the best to your pursue guys.. I'm out of this thread for good..

[Diabolo]

Any base in europe??

[Scandinavian0073]

hi,

it does not seem that the SAS pilots are offered anything, but what is offered in the latest Flight International Magazine.

if there is consensus among the pilots in SIA on this issue, I would expect the SIA union to take contact with the SAS pilot union, which is highly organized

if there are any individuals at SIA, who has any thoughts on SAS pilots coming at this time - please state them, Iam sure they will be of interest to potential SAS pilots wanting to go to SIA.

sincerely

[BYOD]

Hey Scandi, what would you do if the situation was reversed? Welcome those who help make your salary cheap and life hell? I dont think so. Now truthfully. what would you do? And dont go asking our union to contacct yours to help smoothern your way.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Vote with your feet, Aussie! Don't sit on your arse and expect others to take responsibility for your situation.

After a long read through this tread, I initially thought you guys have some serious issues with management, but after reading the usual (and predictable); "See you behind the PUB, mate!" post by crl, I now wonder if the problem lies with management or with (some) of the pilots. crl is without doubt another Glaviator from OZ with a God-given right to any pilot positions in the world. If only a fraction of what he says is true, management would be wise to put an unbiased observer in the sim for all assessment rides. I would hate to think the trainers have their own agenda when they fail candidates.

Apologies to the rest of you, this tread offer a lot of valuable information for those who consider a job with SIA/Cargo.

[Scandinavian0073]

BYOD

I dont have an answer for you - because the scenario would be quite unlikely at SAS.

But I do think a lot of the SAS guys are seriously considering staying for good with SIA if offered -- their advantage is (agreed) that they might have a chance coming back to SAS.

I certainly dont expect SIA union to smoothen anyones way, no the opposite, but after potentially joining I do expect full support, which will be mutual --

it has been a rough environment in SAS too, lately --

appreciate you comment, thanks

[Factseeker]

CRL is leaving this thread for good.

Leaving with derogative remarks of how the SIA instructors will be "out to get the SAS pilots".

You will hate this remark, CRL: The instructors at the SIA TC are generally proffesionals. As always, there may be a few that is a little "tougher" than others. Do you think that the SAS pilots are only used to "nice uncles" at the SAS Flight Academy?

Stop kidding yourself, the SAS pilots are professionals, they can take care of themselves. And they will be a welcome addition to the multinational/multicultural environment at SIA Cargo.

Goodbye CRL.

FS

PS. I like the main forum better, this Far East forum gets to focused on SIA bashing and negative speculations. There are several like that around the world. Do you want some link to the Swiss bashers, SAS bashers, United bashers, PPP forum (Permanent P*****off Pilots)??? Great entertainment, no other value.

[millerscourt]

Factseeker

You still don't get it do you!!

You say the SAS contingent will be a welcome addition to SIA. They will only be welcomed by the SQ Management as it lets them off the hook to find Pilots who otherwise are not prepared to join. No doubt SAS are guaranteeing the Bond for training instead of the Pilots footing the bill thus subsidizing the deal.

Why have SAS got such a huge surplus of Pilots???
If as you say thery are Cash Rich why not keep them on the Payroll or terminate their services and make them make their way in the real world. Perhaps the "Scandanavian" system of Welfare from birth to the grave would give them all nervous breakdowns??

SAS has been a protected Airline as have many in Europe owned by the "State" ie Taxpayers and their days are numbered unless they get their act together.

[Factseeker]

Good morning, Millerscourt.

Not so, you are again out with your constant negativism. I have spoken to a several of my friends at SIA, non-management and even FOs. There is no problem specific for the SAS guys, they respect the airline and the standards. They fail to see what would be worse with these pilots than the "aglosaxon officers club members" tradiontally coming in hordes, demanding specific conditions and high pay.

So, Millerscourt, you are out of touch, speaking only to your complaining peers.

As to why SAS has a surplus of pilots. Easy to answer: New conditions, including longer work hours, more days of work per month, and lower pay. A new and agressive SAS is taking shape, and this will cause a temporary surplus of pilots.

And if you think these Scandinavians are the neverous kind and used to being pampered, join them in the horrific winter conditions in Northern Norway, totally dark, 1600 meters runways with gales in from the north west. Then see who will be the nervous one..!

I repeat myself: SAS and SIA is a good combination. Not only management-wise, but even pilot-wise. I think the Singaporeans and the Scandinavians will have a good time together, respectiing each other and their differences.

Try it, Millerscourt, and you may start smiling too. Heaven forbid..!

[BusyB]

FS,

I'm not even sure you know the difference between SIA and SIA Freighters. I do hope you're one of those going to SIA Freighters because you are going to get a real surprise in the real world!!

[millerscourt]

Factseeker

My God you still don't get it!!!!

Why do you keep harping on about Anglo Saxons and Colonials???

The majority of Singapore Based ex pat Pilots are South American ,Indians etc etc. Very few Brits there these days.

Not sure what flying in Norway in the winter has anything to do with matters regarding the "Welfare Nanny" in Scandinavia

Seeing as how you keep going on about History Sweden has a long one of attacking it's neighbours and colonising Finland to boot. Again nothing whatsoever to do with the subject

The whole point is SQ. and a new Collective Agreement are being forced down the throats of it's Pilots by a Management affecting ALL Pilots not just the Anglo Saxon Colonialists. Thanks to this SAS deal all T&C's are being reduced.

[Factseeker]

So, I do not know the difference between SIA and SIA Cargo.
Oh, I am sorry, but I do. It is not difficult if you actually are looking for facts, not sitting in your rocking chair dreaming up things.
I know the difference in aircraft, organization, terms & conditions, you name it. Down to the small differences in housing allowance schemes, child support, meal allowances etc. It is all available, in the open, if you look for it. And a thorough examination reveals that SIA Cargo is not bad at all, compared to a lot of carriers around, even compared to SIA passenger B777 drivers. But you surely do not care about that, do you? It would ruin your day..!

And how the arrival of the SAS pilots has reduced the T&C is only (again) wishful thinking by you, as the SIA Cargo T&Cs were freely available well before any talk of any SAS pilots to SIA Cargo. Gotchya..! Get your facts perfore pretending to be "experts".

Actually, you are experts: Expert rumour mongers, no substance in your information.

But thanks for excellent entertainment, and for the opportunity to correct some of the misinformation on this thread..!

FS

[knackeredII]

Factseeker,

You are not correcting any misinformation on this thread, only displaying your own arrogance bred of ignorance. What Millerscourt and others have been trying to explain for some time is that the SQ pilots have a real problem being shown any respect by a belligerent management and the arrival of a large group of pilots, especially sponsored pilots is simply going to allow the management more leverage against the current pilots, especially just ahead of a CA negotiation.

Your posts demonstrate the very attitude that the present employees are most afraid of ie "why should I care, I'm just going to have fun and leave when it suits". You show little or no sympathy for a fellow group of pilots, contempt would be more the word. Why don't you read the extensive posts on SQ again and have a rethink of your position, if you are capable of that.

[Factseeker]

It is interesting to see the reactions to someone who dare to oppose the "navel watching" of the SIA bashers.
Where do you read "have fun and just leave", and why do you bring in the CA and connect them with INDIVIDUAL SAS PILOTS going for a term with SIA Cargo.
And you have already dreamed up your "sponsoring" scheme, which I claim you have no facts of whatsoever.

This reminds me alittle of the Emirates pilot meeting thread. Its being kept alive by 4 - 5 pilots, being the same percentage that still believe Elvis is alive.

To my respected opponents: It is not wrong to dare to differ, it is not wrong to have a different opinon than all your words about "stinkcity" and "dictatorial management".

I happen not to agree, and so do many of my friends in SIA.

And I repeat my impression: Fine airline, good and well maintained fleet, nice pilot group, nice city to live in.
And I sense you cant stand that..!

But I should of course respect that you insist on having a monopoly for your version.

Look around, even on this Internet site, and you will find a fantastic number of airlines presented as being BAD, EVIL, LOWPAYING, IDOTS, etc.

To me, SIA Cargo looks like a good operation, and the SAS pilots will in all probability like it there. They are not funseekers, but have a reputation in Europe for being professional, serious workers.

FS

[B Swan]

It is a trying time for the aviation industry in the past few years and PPrune provides some ways for pilots to share information. Hopefully this information, in one way or another, help to better the pilot's communities around the world.

SIA is now going through a critical phase. Management are pulling out all the stops to downgrade Pilot's profession to that of mere Bus dirvers ( no pun intended ). The SAS deal is just one of their many ' arsenals ' to achieve this goal. Pilots ( regardless of seniority ) have for the first time in SIA's 40yrs history, started to vote with their feet. Isn't that telling something ???

I do not begrudge SAS pilots wanting to move to the Lion City, but as some of the posting indicated, resign from SAS then join SIA Cargo on the terms advertised in the Flight Magazine or the Web's Ts & Cs that F***Seeker so proudly pointed out. Then take what comes your way.... Then maybe..just maybe...some SIA pilots might respect you.

B Swan

Millerscourt
I applaud your stamina in engaging with someone like F***Seeker. A lot of adjectives that have been used to describe FS is valid and spot on. Ultimately you can only do so much in trying to crack the nutshell. So let's just let him stay in the cocoon that his ' many SIA friends ' have provided.

[Factseeker]

I would not do that, my father taught me not to hit below the belt (He said nothing about the "anglosaxon nose"). But to illustrate the tactics of changing the name of a poster to the use of stars, preferably with an F to start and 4 letters, I could not resist the tempation.

This is the kind of people in the SIA bashing exercise. Try to ridicule the person, avoid facts, get in some four letter implications, and you may win. Not so, pilots are not that stupid.

Again:

I have checked the facts: There is no SAS deal. There is no special SAS subisidy. Only serious, hardworking and professional SAS pilots being offered a term at SIA Cargo, as all you expats in SIA are serving. What is so special..? Or is it "I was here first?"

And, repeating my self after extensive fact seeking: I have found that SIA Cargo is a good and prestigous company, with a nice and well maintained fleet and competent management. Operated by highly qualified SIA pilots. With a reputation among customers second to none. Cooperating with LH and SK through WAW.

I know you hate this statement, it keeps you coming out of your foxholes with attacks, even though you have no substance.

And for your info, in order for you to aim better next time:

I am working for a major European airline (no, not the North). I am priveleged as a WB captain. I am not in management. I am not female. I am not gay. I have only re-taken my annual check once.

(I will leave my height, weight, skin color and my father's WW2 record until next posting.)

FS

[Factseeker]

So you thought that Millerscourt was a SIA person. Not so, he is in all the threads, all over the Internet. Basically, he is a (probably retired) pilot pewing his bad experiences all over the place.

Take this from the Emirates site, quote "Millerscourt":

You are quite correct in your assessment of Airline jobs in the Gulf/Middle East regettably. The T &C's are now so bad that those from the Western world should perhaps give it a miss unless for reasons quoted by Bigmouth.

Unquote.


And there are a lot more. Millerscourt is all over the place, telling you "how bad things are".

Rumor mongor, no substance. Put him in "junk mail"..!

FS

Another message "quote": Thanks FS, about time somebody like you got around, the PPPs were getting the upper hand.
PPP = Permanent Pissed-off Pilots. (Mostly anglosaxon expats..!)
Unquote.

A lot of pilots in SE Asia are actually sick and tired of the negative inputs, probably from the Anglo Saxon Officers Club. In AHK, SQ, CX, CAL and others: Leave us alone. We are happy, go home to GB (Or Ryanair, EasyJet etc. You will love their T&Cs, their working conditions).

And around the corner, you will find fish and chips. Forget StinkCity..! Not to mention HKG or BKK, which stinks even more..!
Good old London, here we come..!

[stable approach]

ManaAdaSystem,
Could you please explain how you came to the conclusion that all the negative comments must come from Australians?
You seem to be one of the confused persons around here that think the term racist can only be applied to Westerners.

[High Speed Descent]

Wait a DOGGONE minute.....

Whether Millerscourt , BSwan are in SIA or not is besides the point...having read their threads I believe they have got the RIGHT perspective about the Management Styles and Motives....

Hard working or not SAS being here is a WIN-WIN for:

1. SAS Pilots- they get a 744 rating, Get the long COP's and only have to stay here for 4 years.

2. SAS - they can tell the shareholders that their pilots are in demand elsewhere so no RETRENCHMENTS.

3. SIA - Finally segregate Cargo from Main Fleet and as I believe only pay a low basic as in the contract as SAS will be topping up the pay. Economy tickets from SIA - no worries they still get SAS benefits.

As for the SIA pilots, LOSE yet again:

1. F/O's on B744 get less sectors as the pax fleet is winding down and only have few routes unlike years ago. This means longer time for Command.

2. The New CA that is still being negotiated might be jeapordised coz now the company does not fear locals leaving.

3.In the Past everytime ALPAS starts CA negotiations some bunch turn up to ruin the leaverage ...either some retired pensioned BA guys or Some downunder bankcrupt Airline Guys and now some possibly out of work SAS guys.

(to all the locals out there Looking in as a guest as I was until I couldn't stand it any longer).....I wonder if I or any asian could go to any of these Airlines IN DROVES say 100 and be accepted let alone be welcomed!...if the answer is probably NOT then what were you expecting here!!!

The Ignoramus that wrote about the comparison of a Capt and FO Harasssson is absolutely right on the scenario presented but has not added that alot of the non-local F/O's don't try to mix around with the local crew...they prefer the company of expat capts...so be it...we all have a choice ......don't cry when you get left out!!! You sound bitter...go see the doctor..take a chill pill!!!

Factseeker, when you said the SAS-SIA deal was all good by ALPAS then you were either seeking for info or just plain daft......have you checked???.....NO! If you were hoping someone within would read it and come out in this forum...you suceeded!!! But you are nothing like your name suggests...you are not seeking facts...just trying to sell yourself( hard working..professionals,we will enjoy, mutual benefit) none of the locals buy this!!!

As for Singapore ....everyone is entitled to their opinion... Clean and most importantly SAFE. (First child kidnapping ever and they got as far as 5 km.)...can you say that for the rest of the world (south pole??!!!).

Perfect Flying job in the world....I don't think there's such a thing anymore. On other forums there's an EK guy wanting to leave for Dragonair. Guys in SIA want to leave for EK or CAL. So it seems Dragonair s great until the next desease hits.

Happy Flying or Packing. I have no intention of wasting anymore time on this thread.



:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

[millerscourt]

High Speed Descent

I agree don't waste anymore time on this subject as Factseeker seems to have a fixation about "Anglo Saxons" which clouds his judgement.

[ManaAdaSystem]

stable approach,

BYOD looks fairly Auzzie to me. crl sounds like one.

This is a most entertaining tread. We have non SIA pilots having a go at non SAS pilots over subsidizing that doesn't seem to exist. millerscourt is attacking the Scandinavian welfare system. A system now supporting some 250? SAS pilots axed last year. I presume some of them heading for Singapore?

Is there a recruitment ban for the Singaporean jobs?

I can understand the locals getting upset about expats joining, but what right does one expat have to deny another expat a job anywhere in the world?

Any truth to the newspaper article saying LKY will adjust the salaries back to the level pre SARS?

[RatherBeSailing]

Having read all of Factseekers comments and his profile, it dawned on me who he is. Why, it's Mr. Otto Lagerhus himself, the man responsible for the SAS-SIA Cargo deal! Everything fits: Former SAS Captain in Norway who spent many years in SAS management to later retire early and start his own consulting company, with SIA as a previous customer, no less. You can all check it out on www.lac.no

Sorry Otto for exposing you, but I thought it only fair to all the readers of this thread.

Off to the boatyard...

Rather Be Sailing :cool:

[Factseeker]

Rather be sailing performed an excellent speculation. I am now a consultant "responsible for the SIA - SIA Cargo deal..!". At least I am now up to 4 professions, still a few to go, I suspect..!

Because I have all the info..! Thanks, that's facts..!

Which actually all is available on the SAS Intranet for 2500 pilots..! At least that is what I am told, as I do not have the required token for SAS. But SAS pilots do.

You really impress me. We will never be able to expose RatherBeSailing, or is it really Mr. Rather Should Be Sailing of Dubai, who is sick of being an FO. Then we are smelling an emi Rat..!

Keep it up, the more you write, the more I am convinced that you actually are "no-fact". Why do you not create a few aliases, too. In order to "substantiate" your claims.

Actually I am the King of Sweden. And tomorrow I will be the Emperor, sailing up the Thames, and then heading south conquering Istanbul.

Great show, excellent entertainment. As said, keep it up. I shall..!

[B Swan]

RatherBeSailing

Thank you for the info. It is rightly fair to expose such a person.

HighSpeedDescent said it right and I quote

Factseeker, when you said the SAS-SIA deal was all good by ALPAS then you were either seeking for info or just plain daft......have you checked???.....NO! If you were hoping someone within would read it and come out in this forum...you suceeded!!! But you are nothing like your name suggests...you are not seeking facts...just trying to sell yourself( hard working..professionals,we will enjoy, mutual benefit) none of the locals buy this!!!

It says so much for a Company whose President could be so devious as to use this forum to sell his deals !!! I am sure with the wide readership of this forum, his clients ( present and future ) should take heed. We, the pilots worldwide will make sure that its known.

B Swan

[Factseeker]

I really love this.

My 5th title is on, I am now President.

And, for you intelligent observers (I hope there is a few).
Let this be a good demonstration how rumours and speculation try to conquer facts!

The facts remain, gentlemen (yes, I must say there are some exemptions..).

SAS pilots apply as individuals to SIA Cargo.
There seems to be no subsidies in this arrangements.
All SAS pilots apply from their own will, nobody seems to threaten them, and I think that nobody scares them, either.
The SIA pilots and SAS pilots will be fine together.
SIA Cargo seems like a good company, well managed, structured with a good infastructure.
SIN seems to be a good city to live in, at least compared to a lot of other "expat heavens".

And I am actually President Bush. I am busy in Iraq, but I will continue this thread, because it will prove a few things to the most extreme rumour mongers, who believe that Elvis is alive. (approximately 0,4 % of the population).

Elvis was King, I am now President, and I love it.
Bow in awe..!

FS

PS: Exposing RatherBeSailing. He is not emirates, he has his big Swan 52 in a yard outside Stockholm. I think he is SAS management, they utilize quite a lot of FOs with high seniority. This one was either in training or checking. I wonder if he has applied to move his boat to the SIN East Coast..! Did he pass the admission tests..?

[BusyB]

Well, that explains why such an unrepresentative opinion is being pushed so strongly. Only somebody with a financial interest/benefit in persuading SAS pilots to go to SIA could ignore the facts so vehemently!!

[knackeredII]

Yes, and you'll notice he hasn't denied it either!

[RatherBeSailing]

Boy, I must have struck a sore nerve with Factseeker/Lagarhus!

On the morning of April 10th I happened to look in on this thread and saw to my surprise that Lagarhus himself had posted a reply where he gave a little info on the SAS/Sia Cargo deal. He even used the user name "Lagarhus" and didn't hide who he was. Later that day the post was gone (deleted), but lo and behold, who do ya think registered for this site and began replying en masse that same day if not our adamant friend, Factseeker!

Coincidence? I don't think soooo!

The prosecution rests.....Your witness.


Cheers,
RatherBeSailing :cool:

(Extra credit- Factseeker refers above to a "token" that SAS pilots have but not him. So he's not an SAS pilot. On the other hand, he has alot of inside info about SAS and their pilots, like management apparently using FO's alot, so we can safely assume he is a former SAS pilot. Just like Lagarhus! Strange...)

[Factseeker]

Good show, you even created an alias, to make sure your allegations are "substantiated".

This thread is dying, due to the normal reasons: The subject and issues are forgotten, and only speculations and allegations remain.

Congratulations, RatherBeSailing..!

FS

The intelligent observer will have seen that this thread is deteriorating into pure allegations and speculations.

However, I think we are a little more enlightened regarding the issue of SAS pilots to SIA, and some of the worst speculations should have been put to rest.

No more to wring out of this subject, it seems, as other issues and allegations takes first place.

So, Factseeker rides on into the sunset, for another quest for the real facts.

But you do not get rid of him, he surfaces tomorrow, in another shape, but the same quest,

Maybe Zorro..?

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

wondered about that myself.............nice bit of detective work RBS. weellcom aboard Otto, i mean...... Factseeker :ok:

[tebuan]

well it looks like someone is certainly in cahoots with the 4th floor at the SIA training centre!

to sas guys coming out here: please be prepared for the worst...life can be mighty lonely when no one wants to have anything to do with you. as posted earlier, the little leverage locals have is being severly diminshed by the presence of this SAS-SIA deal and the pilots it will create. the existing SIA FOs will be hardest hit i think-reduced benefits and wages and longer time to command (added to the inevitable Relief Cruise Pilot introduction).

please think and think again-how would you guys feel if a 100 of us turned up at the SAS academy for training, whilst you were trying to score a respectable wage/conditions deal??

[ManaAdaSystem]

Any truth to the newspaper article saying LKY will adjust the salaries back to the level pre SARS?

[422]

Big Giant Head sez........

No restoration to PRE-SARS.

No more taking money from his pockets..

Pls, stop the rumours of restorations...

But pls start rumours on more wage cuts ...:}

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

tebuan..you are joking Mate?

1989 there were 100 odd pilots left the shores of OZ to take up command positions with SIA and the local union were on the verge of a 30% pay rise.....needless to say, the locals never got their pay rise and the aussies were welcomed in as national heroes!.........don't kid yourself no one in SQ will be ostracized.the locals won't allow it and management will kick out any trouble makers. like here in honkers - management right behind you! :{

[ManaAdaSystem]

There has been a tea and biscuit party in the office of LKY?
There has been a press release saying more cost cutting in SIA, but NOT through wage cuts? Rather through more efficient utilization of the aircraft, etc?
Same press release saying all staff who had their wages reduced due SARS, will have their wages restored to previous level?

True or false?

[422]

Restoration was mentioned only as a one-time payment

of loss wages + 15% extra.

New CA maintains the current wages..
(16% and -11% of pre-SARS)

The big giant head sez that no-restoration of wages ...period.

Straits Times have a tendancy of blurrring the reality of things.

( any questions )

:ok:

[ManaAdaSystem]

Is it true that SIA expat pilots are 15-20% more expensive than local pilots? Due to various allowances?

[F Dolarhyde]

Dear colleagues!

"please think and think again-how would you guys feel if a 100 of us turned up at the SAS academy for training, whilst you were trying to score a respectable wage/conditions deal??"

If you don't want 100 pilots from SAS to show up it's easy. Go to your union and ask them to contact the unions of SAS. If your union agrees and ask the SAS unions for help I'm sure most SAS pilots will stay in Scandinavia.
SAS pilots has always respected any ban on employment known to them.
But be sure that comments like "you'll be alone" or "the instructors are waiting" etc are not working. SAS pilots will - according to my sources - almost be in majority in SIA Cargo if the deal works out.

[BlueEagle]

No, that is not correct.

Locals still get paid the Provident fund, unlike expats and the majority of expats will only ever be able to do about a maximum of fifteen years with SIA, due to age, so never reach the top increments. Few other little odds and ends that mean that the cost of expat v. local is now about the same.

[BusyB]

TSI is always more comfotable with the management rightt behind him!!

[highcirrus]

Factseeker

Amongst all your hyperbole of late, I haven’t actually seen any comment that you may have considered making in respect of the 5 April posting of jstars2, featured on page 9 of this thread and which he/she quoted from another, previous thread, entitled The Facts about SQ!.

As you have so much to say on the subject of SIA and its recruiting/remuneration policies, perhaps you would care to enlighten us all here in SIA with your valued comment on that post’s content?

[Chambudzi]

Highcirrus.
You are unlikely to get this clown, Otto Lagerhus, alias "factseeker" to respond to FACTS. Having been found out for his need to reap huge financial benefits out of the SAS/SIA deal he has vanished suddenly and no doubt claims he has no further interest in this thread. As with all cowards though, I believe that he wont be able to help himself and will therefore be watching this thread quietly anyway.
Perhaps with a little prodding we can get the coward back out into the open.
Go on Lagerhus, why dont you just tell us how much you make on each pilot successfully recruited into SIA.
Dont start on your silly nonsense about "Zorro" or "pure speculation and allegations". Just tell us the FACTS Mr Factseeker and do try to stay on the subject will you?

[highcirrus]

Chambudzi

Perhaps, as Mr Lagerhus would appear to have a financial interest in the recruiting of SAS pilots for SIA, his judgment may have become clouded in his consideration as to the advisability of mentioning to the SAS pilots that an SIA remuneration review (downwards) is currently taking place under the stewardship of Singapore’s Senior Minister, Lee Kuan Yew.

No matter on what terms any SAS pilot would enter into a contract with SIA, those terms would still be subject to the override that they would be altered and brought into line with whatever is “agreed” between the Company and Alpa-S, for the time being. As you have probably recently gathered, the “union” will just accept what is handed down from LKY, rather than risk more members of the Exco receiving exemplary sanction for disobedience.

As the current, offered terms of employment for SAS pilots are generally in line with present salary levels, new SAS joiners could, therefore, quickly expect to sustain a significant pay cut.

Interested SAS pilots may wish to contact Mr Lagerhus, to clarify the matter.

[Anotherpost75]

highcirrus

Maybe a better idea is for the SAS pilot union to urgently act on behalf of a significant percentage of its membership who seem determined to “jump off a precipice” and ask its retained Scandinavian legal advisors to contact a reliable Singapore law firm that has extensive labor/contract law experience in the Republic and ask that the SIA contract be appraised and a view given as to the likely outcome of the present Collective Agreement negotiations between the Company (for which read Government) and the Pilots.

[ph-heineken]

Any bases in Europe for SIA cargo F/O's?

[422]

Dear Hiene

Basing isn't too big a deal,

Just find 38 FO's and sign the dotted line..

it is that simple.

SQ always favours foreign basing to screw the locals.

Just be careful of the 300, 000kg landing weight,

:ok:

[jstars2]

SIA Outlook Magazine, May 2004

PILOT AGREEMENT: SIA Cargo signed a Letter of Exchange on 8 April with the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) to take in air force pilots.

Under the agreement, aimed at optimising the scarce national pilot resource pool, RSAF pilots to be released to SIA Cargo must have served RSAF for at least 12 years and possess an ATPL licence.

The agreement was signed by Chief Pilot Cargo Captain Gan Kim Hock and Head Air Operations Colonel Charles Shih at the MINDEF Building, Gombak Drive.

Currently, the freighter services are operated mainly by pilots from SIA. SIA Cargo hopes to have a full complement of its own pilots in four to five year’s time.

The RSAF pilots will join as cadet pilots, but on shorter training programmes.

SIA and SilkAir have similar schemes with RSAF. To date, SIA has taken in 163 RSAF pilots and SilkAir 17.

[9M_JON]

How does it work?Obviously RSAF pilots have sufficent hours, already possess ATPL and will get type-rated,how come they are considered only as cadet pilots?Granted that don't have heavy commercial jet hours at least they should be considered second pilots.

How about the training bond and bank guarantee?

Does it really take 4-5 yrs for SQ Cargo to get full complements of their own pilots.If that is the case & having to resort to agreement with RSAF for pilots, something is definitely not right in the HR dept.

Maybe it's the bank guarantee or the amount?

[422]

Cargo is the best place to be these days.

Where is the world does a freshman to civilian aviation
get to land at 305-T?

4000m runway suddenly looks very short at that weight.

Add wet / slippery runway and some tailwind and situation
looks more exciting.

anyone knows the ROD of a/c at 300-T landing weight on ILS
with OAT +45c ?

Ans: Just like a F-14 on a carrier approach...


So cargo is truly exciting place to be,...

Pls no complaints on pay...
this is a cheapo outfit, run by rich-goons
:ok:

[Anotherpost75]

I’m fresh from another trip to that supremely manicured but unhappy island, Singapore, and my SIA cronies there tell me, between bouts of crying in their beer, that not only don’t they know what’s happening with the latest CA “negotiations” (ie what’s to be forced down their throats by the government) but that things are similarly and mysteriously muted in relation to the hundreds of SAS pilots who were supposed to be joining the ranks of galley slaves (sorry, valued professionals) in the state monolith.

Seems that a few brave souls (or some would say foolhardily negligent in checking SIA “contract” terms before joining) have undergone training but have encountered CAAS licensing problems of some description and have been given the push (part of the great SIA tradition of nurturing esteemed employees, which my friends tell me is covered in the airline’s “core values”, trumpeted to all new joiners).

Maybe Mr Otto Lagerhus, alias Factseeker who, by accounts, seems to have been part of the orchestration of the SAS/SIA pilot deal could provide details?

If he can spare the time, I know that many SIA pilots would also value any information he has regarding benefit adjustments (downwards) that the new CA will contain and which he has obviously discussed with the SAS pilot body before allowing members of that group to sign an SIA “contract”.

Over to you Mr Lagerhus

[CDRW]

Hmm - Another - can't really blame any SAS for not reading the contract - the bit about being current I don't think is in the contract. Interesting times ahead again!!

What I found quite interesting was the lack of hoopla that the "Strait Lies" printed about the 800 mill profit that SQ made. One thinks that it wold almost be an embarresment to them to broadcast that in "their worst year" they still made a hugeprofit. BUT - the paycuts continue!!!

[Insider107]

Yes, that’s about right CDRW (though I seem to have in my mind a S$850 million profit) and I would guess that right now the "Strait Lies" editorial team will be receiving a government brief to run stories, double quick, about the dire effect of the present oil price “spike” on the future profit prospects of SIA – omitting to mention, of course, that far worse “spikes” have occurred over the past thirty years and that the airline is extremely well hedged on fuel costs for the next eighteen months!

Must have any facts blurred, that stand in the way of the required pay cuts all-round (except for Singapore government ministers, of course)!

[Anotherpost75]

Ran into some of the SIA boys recently, freighting into and out of China. Seems like not too many of the SAS pilots have taken up the SIA Cargo contract as things did not turn out as advertised back in Scandinavia once the reality hit the first group on arrival in Singapore, plus there were some licensing problems. Total SAS contingent with SIA is currently less than ten!? Can anyone confirm this? If correct, the package must be pretty bad to discourage even the "adventurers"!

[highcirrus]

In the rush to get “Tiger” into the air somewhere near the projected start date (in the next ten days or so), it seems that it has been necessary for Silk Air A320 pilots to be seconded to the new LCC as there have been absolutely no suitable takers of the derisory Terms & Conditions offered so far.

A first thought must be: so much for the “stand alone” concept of this rugged new start-up, navigating the shoals and rapids of market forces, sinking or swimming based on its own efforts. A second one surely is: these very same forces seem to be sending their own special message to the Singapore powers that be, ie the package is pathetic considering both the costs associated with living in Singapore and the weak state of the Singapore Dollar.

Surely one would think that having gone through a similar exercise with the SIA Cargo package, the same mistake would not have been made twice?

Maybe too much store is being set on the duff advice of out-of-touch Tony Ryan and his beleaguered acolyte Michael O’Leary.

[411A]

Had a look at the latest Flight with the SQ cargo ad in same, and noted that the salary offered is comparable to what they were paying 707 Captains...in 1980:ooh: :ooh:

Suspect the 'powers that be' in the HR department are right and truly dreaming.

Good grief.

[422]

Pay isn't that bad,
Once the CA is signed and the expats are out of it.

Co can now pay the expats even more.
Only reason is to attract more foreign talent.

Don't worry about the locals, they have got
no where else to go. STUCK so to say.

FUBAR
:cool: