Remembrance Day - 2008 (Merged)

[Kiting for Boys]

Can I recommend the Remembrance page in this website.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/remembrance/flash/index.shtml[/url]

Sound on...

[DubTrub]

...and don't forget this Sunday at 11 am, an occasion for all.

[FEBA]

KFB
Many thanks for this link. Most moving. I shall be at RAF Langar on the hour for a small ceremony. Travellers (Gypsies) desecrated the memorial there, recently, and the trees that were planted around it, the locals and the RBL have restored it in time for the parade.
On the Idle Hill of Summer A E Houseman

On the idle hill of summer,
Sleepy with the flow of streams,
Far I hear the steady drummer
Drumming like a noise in dreams.
Far and near and low and louder
On the roads of earth go by,
Dear to friends and food for powder,
Soldiers marching, all to die.

East and west on fields forgotten
Bleach the bones of comrades slain,
Lovely lads and dead and rotten;
None that go return again.

Far the calling bugles hollo,
High the screaming fife replies,
Gay the files of scarlet follow:
Woman bore me, I will rise

FEBA

[You want it when?]

Thanks for the link, poppies being worn with pride, SAFSA gets a bit extra this month.

[FEBA]

http://www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/pict4.jpg

For the Fallen by Laurence Binyon
They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end, they remain.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Most moving link, and lovely poems.

I will unashamedly shed more than a few tears on Sunday.

Lest we forget!

[FEBA]

All military colleagues, serving and ex,
Please feel free to join me in posting war poetry. Perhaps this could become an annual occurance that procedes remembrance day.

The General


'Good-morning; good-morning!' the General said
When we met him last week on our way to the line.
Now the soldiers he smiled at are most of 'em dead,
And we're cursing his staff for incompetent swine.
'He's a cheery old card,' grunted Harry to Jack
As they slogged up to Arras with rifle and pack...
But he did for them both by his plan of attack.


Siegfried Sassoon

[Pub User]

This is a pilot's forum, and if we're going to quote poetry, then we must be loyal to our pilot brethren:



Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds — and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of — wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long, delirious burning blue
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew.
And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.



This young man's words could almost turn me to religion.

On 11th Nov, please remember him and his friends.

[FEBA]

This is a pilot's forum, and if we're going to quote poetry, then we must be loyal to our pilot brethren:

Not so. In this regard, remembrance day, it's an open forum. Feel free to post any poetry you like. Other than John Gillespie Magee's famous poem I don't know of any other poets of the air (war time) that are as famous as Magee, or Naval for that matter.
FEBA

[Ali Barber]

Just an observation, but it's amazing when you click on the names on the rembrance link at the top of this forum how many of them died from pneumonia. As if it wasn't bad enough at the time without that!

[teeteringhead]

One of my favourite remembrance-ish bits of poetry is only a few lines (must google for the rest) - I think it too is Housman:

Too full already is the grave
With fellows who were young and brave
...... and died because they were.....


Later.....

of course it was Housman .. and I've been misquoting him for years....

Oh stay at home, my lad, and plough
The land and not the sea,
And leave the soldiers at their drill,
And all about the idle hill
Shepherd your sheep with me.

Oh stay with company and mirth
And daylight and the air;
Too full already is the grave
Of fellows that were good and brave
And died because they were.

.... a bit anti-war in its entirity, but I'll forgive Housman anything for his "Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries" ... but you can google that for yourselves!!

[Flatus Veteranus]

DO NOT STAND AT MY GRAVE AND WEEP

Do not stand at my grave and weep
I am not there.
I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glints on snow.
I am the sunlight on ripened grain
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning’s hush,
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight.
I am the soft stars that shine at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry,
I am not there;
I did not die.


Anon

I think we should go back to the original Armistice Day concept. When I was a boy everyone, everywhere, kept two minutes silence at 1100 hrs on 11 November. 1100 hrs on Rembrance Sunday (9 Nov) clashes horribly with the England/Wales quarter final which will inevitably reduce church attendance. :(

[Kiting for Boys]

Apparently, in the First World War, the Highland Regiments still spoke Gaelic. Orders were issued in English.


Here the officer calls to his boys (Ghillean – from which we get the fishing 'Ghilly') to March at Ease. He reminds them of their duty to the king and of their home, but I can’t speak the language.
So in the advance on the road to Arras, the poet, who served in the Cameronians (I think) wrote…

Oran Arras
Ghillean, march at ease!
R'gh na s'th bhith mar sinn
A’ dol chun na str'
’S chun na cill aig Arras,
Ghillean, march at ease!

Tha nochd oidhche Luain
Teannadh suas ri fàire
A’ dol chun na h-uaigh
Far nach fhuasg’lear barrall
Ghillean, march at ease!

Tillidh cuid dhinn slàn
Cuid fo chràdh làn fala
’S mar a tha e ’n dàn
Roinn le bàs a dh’ fhanas
Ghillean, march at ease!

Gus ar t'r a dh'on,
Eadar liath is leanabh,
Mar dhaoin’ às an rian
N' sinn sgian a tharrainn,
Ghillean, march at ease!

Gura l'onmhor fear is tè
Tha ’n t'r nan geug nan caithris,
Feitheamh ris an sgeul
Bhios aig a’ chlèir ri aithris
Ghillean, march at ease!

Gura l'onmhor sùil
Shileas dlùth ’s nach caidil
Nuair thig fios on Chrùn
Nach bi dùil rim balaich
Ghillean, march at ease!

[WE Branch Fanatic]

The Soldier by Rupert Brooke

If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England. There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
A body of England's, breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home.

And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
In hearts at peace, under an English heaven.

Much of modern UK society seems unaware (or uncaring) of the sacrifices made on their behalf. Are we worthy?

Many seem to think that it is just about remembering the dead of both World Wars - unaware that there are those who are still suffering from WWI and WWII. It is largely of course, but also all the conflicts UK forces have been involved in since WWII. And don't forget the toll of accidents and ill health as a result of serving - even in peacetime.

Not just those that were killed either. Those that were injured, and whose bodies or minds were permanantly damaged. The parents, children, brothers, sisters, wives, girlfriends and other relatives who lost their loved ones. Their suffering continues every day.

Remember them too! Lest we forget.......

[Toddington Ted]

One of the most simple, but most poignant in my view is "In Flanders Fields"

In Flanders Fields

In Flanders Fields the poppies grow
Between the crosses, row on row.
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below

We are the Dead, Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders Fields

Take up your quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders Fields

John McCrae (1872-1918)

John McCrae was a Canadian physician who fought on the Western Front in 1914 and was later transferred to the medical corps. He also died during the Great War and also of pneumonia, like so many others who survived wounds and other horrors.

With the current situation in Iraq, I can't help thinking of how the poets of the time when the UK was the world's only superpower seemed to capture the difficulties the superpower faced. No one better perhaps than Rudyard Kipling whose poem "Take up the White Man's Burden" is often mistakingly labelled as being racist and stuck in the Victorian era. However, on closer inspection it makes quite clear the terrible responsibilities of states who, for whatever reason, find themselves acting as the free world's policeman - "the savage wars of peace" as Kipling so accurately puts it and "to wait in heavy harness." Having spent a relatively short and uneventful time out there (fortunately!) earlier this year, those Service personnel out in the Middle East now will certainly be in my thoughts tomorrow and on 11th.

[Kiting for Boys]

Why does the BBC think that it’s a good idea to use American accents in the songs tonight?

Will Young singing about Baahhkly Skwayay is silly...


There is rarely a need to start TWO threads on one subject. Certainly not in this case

[maninblack]

I logged on to start a whine about this but you beat me to it.

The overall populist tone of tonight with the bands playing a medley including the theme from Top Gun was embarrassing. I hope that tomorrow morning none of my cadets remember this shameful piece of populist tripe.

Sadly this is what happens after those who served and worked at the BBC retired and their grandsons with their degrees in media studies take over with their focus groups.

[maninblack]

11th November 1998 I was in London on business and had to get home before lunch. It was the 80th anniversary of the end of WW1. There was a service on the station starting at 10.45. At 11 there was the usual 2 minutes silence.

After 2 minutes the silence was broken by all the engines sounding their horns............never before had my hair stood on end to this extent.

It was an honour to be there.

[JohnB]

My thought on the Festival was....where is everyone? It seemed as if the muster was only half full compared to previous years.

Was that a guilty look on Bliar's face when the Gulf veterans and relatives came on?

[tharg]

"Feel free to post any poetry you like"

Thank you, FEBA. I am not a 'military colleague' but my family lost members in WW2 and WW1 (grandfather KIA first day, first Battle of Somme). So...

Anthem for Doomed Youth

What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?
-Only the monstrous anger of the guns.
Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons.
No mockeries now for them; no prayers nor bells;
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs,-
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires.


What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of good-byes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.

Wilfred Owen

A great poet, himself KIA a few days from the armistice of 1918. These words of his pull tears from my eyes as surely as the BoBMF's Merlins echoing into a darkening sky over Croydon airport or Kenley at their annual tribute.

[JohnB]

A soldier stood at the pearly gate,
His face was scarred and old.
He stood before the man of fate
For admission to the fold.
‘What have you done,’ St Peter asked,
‘To gain admission here?’
‘I’ve been a soldier, sir,’ he said,
‘For many and many a year.’
The pearly gate swung open wide
As Peter touched the bell,
‘Inside’, he said, ‘and choose your harp.
You've had your share of hell.’

Another poem by that famous poet, Anonymous

[MajorMadMax]

Excellent thread, I had the pleasure of visiting Ypres a few weeks ago and will be taking the family there this coming Tuesday. It is an experience that would move anyone.

Also, there is a Bastogne march on 20 December to commemorate the offensive there. I went last year and it was amazing, re-enactors set up all along the route making you feel you've stepped back in time. If only someone could get a few P-51s to fly overhead!

Cheers! M2

[chippy63]

I doubt it, JohnB, I very much doubt it.

[FEBA]

Moderator
Would you kindly close this thread and re-open it in 12 months time.
FEBA

[Pontius Navigator]

I noted all the points about the BBC above and do you know what? So did the vicar.

At the service this morning he talked about CS Lewis and the Narnia Stories and the fact that the BBC, despite the success of the first 3 dropped plans to broadcast the last 4. The last one was The Final Battle and it did not fit the BBCs anti-war anti-Christian movement.

He said that the Christian movement was the most realistic as it recognised sin and the propensity of war. No war is utopian and not in the bibble.

[Paterbrat]

Cool, white, simple, it stood and around, with heads bowed, our representatives.
Two minutes from our busy lives. So small a thing for those who gave so much.



Courtesy BBC was able to stand here and watch at the appropriate time, remember, say a quiet thank you, could not prevent a tear, did not feel it wasted. Another poem that sprang to mind was by WB Yeats.

I know that I shall meet my fate
Somewhere among the clouds above;
Those that I fight I do not hate,
Those that I guard I do not love;
My country is Kiltartan Cross,
My countrymen Kiltartan's poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.
Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
In balance with this life, this death

[scroggs]

Why did you die, Daddy, why did you die?
You said you'd be here tonight.
It's my birthday, Daddy, don't you remember?
The candles you were going to light?

You went away so long ago,
I can hardly remember your touch.
But I'll always feel, I'll always know,
The love we shared so much.

I remember your plane, Daddy, so big - so green
You were so proud, showing it to me.
It's in front of me now, Daddy, on the TV screen.
But you I can't see.

Mummy says we'll always remember you,
On this special day, though it's dark.
But where are you, Daddy, and why did you die?
And when will we next play in the park?


Anon

[Scud-U-Like]

I have to agree, when popular culture meets military ceremony, the result is usually pretty cringe-making. Saturday's Royal British Legion Festival of Remembrance was no exception. I doubt the show impressed the young or the old (though it might have appealed to "Creme Brule" fans). When will military directors of music learn that songs written for bass guitar and wailing diva cannot successfully be arranged for military woodwind and brass? Incidentally, I thought the Barclay Square number was inoffensive enough, as it did, at least, have its origins in WW2 nostalgia.

The Festival ought to stick to what it does best, celebrating military tradition and remembering the fallen.

Furthermore, as Britain is a predominantly secular society, please can we be spared the religious bilge? As many of the above poems demonstrate, it is possible movingly and respectfully to remember the dead, without the whole thing being hijacked by the god squad.

[FEBA]

Scud
Furthermore, as Britain is a predominantly secular society, please can we be spared the religious bilge? As many of the above poems demonstrate, it is possible movingly and respectfully to remember the dead, without the whole thing being hijacked by the god squad.
I cannot agree with this statement. Most, if not all who have been confronted by the spectre of death in battle, turn to their faith or their mother.
I have never been confronted with such a situation during my military career. I thank god for that.
FEBA

[maxburner]

My little village church has a moving remembrance service. My wife and I attended it this year, as we always do, and as we stood outside at the war memorial we remarked that this year was different in that the sun was shining and the trees are particularly vibrant. As the vicar read out the names of those who died for England in 2 world wars it seemed more poignant than ever as we stood there in the chilly wind, but with the bright sun on our faces. Its a small village, but the list of names is quite long. Lets never forget what they did.

[PPRuNe Pop]

FEBA.

Closing it to open again in 12 months time is a good idea. I will check on that but normally threads older than 9 months naturally wither away.

Tell you what though. I will cut and paste the whole thread - hopefully - and store it on disc and then I will resurrect (fits well doesn't it!) it a couple of weeks before the time in 2004.

I will do whatever I can. It is a good thread.

I will let you know when I have the answer.

PPP

[FEBA]

PPrune Pop
Thank you. I've stood in silence for two minutes today and packed away my emotions for another year.
Best wishes
FEBA

[PPRuNe Pop]

As we all did FEBA, as we all did.

As I promised. The thread is now open again to remember. It is here again for those who wish to pay their own kind of homage.

[soddim]

Thank you PPRuNe Pop. A most worthwhile thread and well worth the resurrection.

[Trumpet_trousers]

.....than he lay down his life for others.....

A sentiment that is perhaps easy to forget in todays culture(s)

It is ever so easy to criticise the actions of others when they are no longer with us to defend themselves.


War is a nasty, horrible business, but we should never underestimate the Courage and Values of those that have gone before us.

[joe2812]

Taken from a POW journal I have in my posession,

My England

I shall come back to my own England,
Of hedgerow and of field,
Where the wounds in my mind will be slowly healed,
And the graves in my heart will be overgrown,
And i'll sit in the sun.

Cpl Arthur Wainwright, Lancaster rear gunner, Stalag Luft 6, 12/10/1944, a POW after being shot down over enemy territory. My Grandfather.

(Edit: I'm not sure if this is his work or if it's that of someone else. I have googled and cannot find it, however i don't know it from anywhere else)

[attackattackattack]

From Runnymede:

The first rays of the dawning sun
Shall touch its pillars,
And as the day advances
And the light grows stronger,
You shall read the names
Engraved on the stone of those who sailed on the angry sky
And saw harbour no more.

No gravestone in yew-dark churchyard
Shall mark their resting place;
Their bones lie in the forgotten corners of earth and sea.
But, that we may not lose their memory
With fading years, their monuments stand here,
Here, where the trees troop down to Runnymede.
Meadow of Magna Carta, field of freedom,
Never saw you so fitting a memorial,
Proof that the principals established here
Are still dear to the hearts of men.
Here now they stand, contrasted and alike,
The field of freedom's birth, and the memorial
To freedom's winning.

And, as evening comes,
And mists, like quiet ghosts, rise from the river bed,
And climb the hill to wander through the cloisters,
We shall not forget them. Above the mist
We shall see the memorial still, and over it
The crown and single star. And we shall pray
As the mists rise up and the air grows dark
That we may wear
As brave a heart as they.

[Wee Jock]

Just one of the 20,000 names on the Air Force Memorial at Runnymede, mentioned above:

Plt Off William Arthur Lynch RAF(VR)

Beaufighter pilot of 236 Sqn, lost over the Freisien Islands on 28th January 1944. He was 21 years old, and my other half's uncle.


'That we may wear
As brave a heart as they.'

[FEBA]

Capt Keith Douglas

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/S/soldier_poets/images/douglas5.jpg

D-Day and death
On 6 April, he was moved to a top-security camp for final training in sea-borne invasion. Exactly two months later, he was in command of a tank troop in the main assault on Gold Beach in Normandy. As he waited to embark on the journey across the Channel, he wrote
'Actors waiting in the wings of Europe'

Everyone, I suppose, will use these minutes
to look back, to hear music and recall
what we were doing and saying that year
during our last few months as people, near
the sucking mouth of the day that swallowed us all
into the stomach of a war.'

He never finished the poem.

The regiment helped liberate Bayeux and then, on D-Day + 3, arrived outside the little village of St Pierre. The 24-year-old Douglas and a comrade left their tank and walked towards the village, which was full of Germans. A mortar shell exploded directly above his head, killing him instantly without leaving a mark on his body. The chaplain buried him by a hedge near where he died.

[moggiee]

I have just returned from a family holiday in Northern France during which I, two of my brothers, and my father visited the grave of my father's uncle who was killed, at the age of 24, on D-Day. He never even made it off the beach.

This was the first visit to the cemetery (Bayeux) for my brothers and myself, although my father had been before. Even though I never knew my great uncle (I was born 41 years after his death) it was still an incredibly moving experience. All of us were moved to tears at one point.

A few things will forever remain my mind:

The peace and serenity of the beautifully kept cemetery and memorials.

The way that whole RAF crews were buried together - just as they had trained, played, fought and died together.

The rows and rows of Marines who died on 6th June 1944 - their unit must have been decimated.

The presence of Czechs, Poles, Russians and even at least one Italian in the cemetery.

The fact that Jews and Christians were buried side by side.

The sight of a whole RAF crew of seven men killed just 6 days before the end of the war.

The presence of German soldiers in the same cemetery as the British and Commonwealth personnel - all equal in death.

Finally the youth of many of those who died - espcially the German soldiers, many of whom were 16, 17 or 18 years old.

As an ex serviceman I am well aware that it is only a matter of timing (and maybe some luck) that means that I am not there - the Cold War could have gone "hot" at any time. The sacrifice of these men (and women), service and civilian (there was at least on female church worker in Etaples cemetery, for example) touched me and although I never knew any of them, I always feel close to them.

I took my 7 year old daughter to the cemetery at Etaples, and did my best to explain. But how can you? All that we can do is remember, honour and cherish those who gave their lives and do our best to ensure that this sacrifice is not required in the future. I am confident that we will continue to do the former - I am not so confident of the latter.

[WorkingHard]

We can no longer express our gratitude to those that died in service for their country but we can at least make sure they are never forgotten.
We are all moved at every rembrance service.
Could we make it a requirement, do you think, that all our politicians have to spend a few days at the war graves in Normandy and other places? It may just concentrate their minds on what they ask of our troops. It is incredibly sobering just to look there.

[Cambridge Crash]

Last year my 5 year old lad went off to school wearing a poppy. It was removed by a teacher 'on safety grounds' because of sharp pin (it was a small safety pin!). I spoke with the teacher and I conceded that the safety pin could have been a dangerous weapon in my son's hands. However, it transpired that the teacher had a hazy idea about the origins and purpose of the symbol, and express disquiet about 'rasing money for old men to sit in smoky clubs drinking cheap beer', and although the teacher accepted that these 'old men' were returned serviceman, that was the limit of understanding. I passed the teacher some material from Combat Stress, which outlines more contemporary cases. The teacher was appreciative of this and had 'forgotten' that UK plc had sent large numbers of troops to the Balkans in the 1990s, which inter alia had generated a need for support for troops and their families.

I suppose that the purpose of my ravings is to highlight the lack of understanding of the place of the armed services in the community (and of course, I am preaching to the converted) There is a lacuna of understanding and some deep prejudices about those who serve; the mawkish behaviour of those surrounding Ken Bigley's family is declamatory of this - the confusion of private grief with public outrage. But what about the 60-odd British troops who have died in Iraq in service of the Crown, rather than an ad eundum statum gentleman of questionable virtue, in pursuit of money?

In contrast with my experience last year on an US facility where the shop assistant - commenting on my poppy (accompanied by a full risk assessment) - commented that it was great that the Brits could join the Veterens' Day celebrations on 11 Nov. I declined to correct her lack of chronological understanding...

Cantab Crash

[Sloppy Link]

If my memory serves me correctly, the US pay their respects on "Memorial Day" (May sometime I think) and this is a national holiday regardless of what day it falls on. Should Nov 11 be elevated to this status, would not the occasion be forced more into the public eye? Or would it simply be viewed as glorifying war or an excuse to get a day off work? I can think of no occasion where a National Holiday is accompanied by a National Occasion, all our Bank Holidays are granted as a result of financial markets closing historically but are now no more than a "Day Off". I think it is high time that we started to show some pride in our achievements and allowed our youth to be aware and learn of our and our ancestor's history.

Bastille Day France
Independence Day USA
Canada Day Canada
ANZAC Day Australia

To name but a few. I find it incredible that we are still being mealy mouthed to the French about having an autumn holiday and calling it Trafalgar Day. Stop pussy footing around and do it and then when my Grandchildren ask why is it called Trafalgar Day, I will be able to explain how the mightiest Navy the world has ever or will ever see saw to the enemy and as a result Britain became the power it was and is still (just) respected throughout the modern world.

Poetry;
I recall a marvellous reading from a colleague's memorial that went along the lines of:

Death is nothing at all. I have only slipped away into the next room. I am I, and you are you. Whatever we were to each other, that we still are. Call me by my old familiar name, speak to me in the easy way which you always used. Put no difference in your tone, wear no forced air of solemnity or sorrow. Laugh as we always laughed, at the little jokes we enjoyed together. Pray, smile, think of me, pray for me. Let my name be ever the household word that it always was. Let it be spoken without effect, without the trace of a shadow on it. Life means all that it ever meant. It is the same as it ever was; there is unbroken continuity. Why should I be out of mind because I am out of sight? I am waiting for you, for an interval, somewhere very near, just around the corner. All is well.

I still do laugh at his little jokes. SD 1999 RiP

[An Teallach]

Working Hard: As far as politicians go, I'm afraid it was ever thus. Hamish Henderson (1919-2002), who fought through N. Africa and Italy with the 8th Army and drafted the Italian surrender order for Marshal Graziani on 9 Apr 1945, wrote the following on hearing that Lady Astor had refererred to the 8th Army as D-Day Dodgers. Sung to the tune of Lili Marlene, it rapidly became an anthem of the Italian campaign and remains a popular song in Scotland to this day.

Ballad of the D-Day Dodgers

We're the D-Day Dodgers, out in Italy –
Always on the vino, always on the spree.
8th Army scroungers and their tanks
We live in Rome - among the Yanks.
We are the D-Day Dodgers, way out in Italy.

We landed at Salerno, a holiday with pay;
The Jerries brought the bands out to greet us on the way...
Showed us the sights and gave us tea.
We all sang songs - the beer was free,
To welcome D-Day Dodgers to sunny Italy.

Naples and Cassino were taken in our stride,
We didn't go to fight there - we went there for the ride.
Anzio and Sangro were just names,
We only went to look for dames –
The artful D-Day Dodgers, way out in Italy.

On the way to Florence we had a lovely time.
We ran a bus to Rimini right through the Gothic Line.
Soon to Bologna we will go
And after that we'll cross the Po.
We'll still be D-Day dodging, way out in Italy.

Once we heard a rumour that we were going home,
Back to dear old Blighty - never more to roam.
Then someone said: "In France you'll fight!"
We said: "No fear - we'll just sit tight!"
(The windy D-Day Dodgers to stay in Italy).

Dear Lady Astor, you think you know a lot,
Standing on a platform and talking tommy-rot.
You, England's sweetheart and its pride,
We think your mouth's too bleeding wide
That's from your D-Day Dodgers - in far off Italy.

Look around the mountains, in the mud and rain –
You’ll find the scattered crosses - (there's some which have no name).
Heartbreak and toil and suffering gone,
The boys beneath them slumber on.
Those are the D-Day Dodgers who'll stay in Italy.

As well as the poignant and cutting wit shown above, Hamish produced one of the outstanding poetic works of the 2nd World War in his Elegies for the Dead in Cyrenaica (1948), including the immortal line : "No Gods and precious few heroes."

Kiting for Boys: You're right, the poet was in the Camerons. He was Donald Macdonald Dòmhnall Ruadh Chorùna (1887-1967). If Gaelic is fair game, and as HM is in Germany at the moment, Sorley MacLean wrote the following for Hamish as the introduction to part 2 of the elegies:

'Na shuidhe marbh an 'Glaic a' Bhàis'
fo Dhruim Ruidhìseit,
gille òg 's a logan sìos m' a ghruaidh
's a thuar grisionn.

Smaoinich mi air a' chòir 's an àgh.
A fhuair e bho Fhurair,
bhith tuiteam ann an raon an àir
gun éirigh tuilleadh...

Ge b'e a dheòin-san no a chàs,
a neo-chiontas no mhìorun,
cha do nochd e toileachadh 'na bhàs
fo Dhruim Ruidhìseit.

Somhairle Mac Gill-Eathain

Sitting dead in 'Death Valley'
below Ruweisat Ridge,
a boy with his forelock down about his cheek
and his face slate-grey.

I thought of the right and joy,
he had from his Fuehrer,
of falling in the field of slaughter
to rise no more ...

Whatever his desire or mishap,
his innocence or malignance,
he showed no pleasure in his death
below the Ruweisat Ridge.

[battlecruiser]

Death is nothing at all...
I have only slipped away to the next room...
I am I and you are you...
Whatever we were to each, that we are still.

Call me by my old familiar name,
Speak it to me in the same way you always used.
Put no difference into your tone,
Wear no false air of solemnity or sorrow.

Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes we enjoyed together.
Play, smile, think of me, pray for me.
Let my name be ever the household word that it always was.
Let it be spoken without effect, without the ghost of a shadow on it.

Life means all that it ever meant.
It is the same as it ever was.
There is absolutely unbroken continuity.
What is this death but a negligible accident.

I am but waiting for you for an interval
Somewhere very near
Just around the corner.
All is well.

Henry Scott Holland 1847 - 1918
Canon of St Paul's, London

[BootFlap]

A most moving thread. It has been a while since I have last felt the need to post a reply, and I can only thank you for making it one with a worthwhile sentiment.

Seeing the fact that 3 more names will be added to the list of those 'paying the ultimate price', makes it even more pertinent. No politics, no posturing, just condolences to the families.

[Flatus Veteranus]

My poor old Mum (died 1991 aged 94) lost both her brothers and a fiancé in the first war. The fiancé was an RFC pilot but I have never managed to discover his unit and the circumstances in which he died. Her brothers were junior officers, one in the South Wales Borderers and the other in the Royal Field Artillery. They were both brilliant, golden youths, educated by my grandfather (a retired Sapper Colonel) at home until they entered the Imperial Service College (ISC - a forerunner of Hayleybury) where one was head boy and captain of rugby and athletics. They were both commissioned into the regular army. They died within a few miles of each other and within a few months in 1916. One is buried in one of the Canadian cemeteries at Vimy, and the other in a small British cemetery in a very rural setting South of Lille. I usually visit France at this time of year to see my grandchildren during the French half-term and sometimes detour to visit my uncles' graves. Both cemeteries are admirable in their own way. Vimy is obviously a CWGC showpiece, visible from the A26 near Lens, and attracts many visitors. The other, much smaller and isolated, is less visited but no less beautifully maintained. Flowers and colourful shrubs abound. Each time I visit I notice that some headstones have been replaced where their inscriptions have become eroded. The landscaping and monumental architecture were just right from the beginning, and both sites are calm, peaceful and somehow raise one's spirits. The CWGC is clearly a dedicated organisation.

Nothing, however, not even time "the great healer", can mitigate the appalling tragedy suffered by my parents generation. The loss of his two wonderful sons killed my grandfather. My grandmother, a Canadian who stood nearly 6ft tall, was a rock. My mother inherited most of her stoicism but was clearly deeply scarred by the loss of three young men whom she loved. There were things of which she would not speak and I could never persuade her to visit her brothers' graves. I remember listening with her and her mother to Chamberlain's speech on the BBC on 3 September 1939 anouncing the opening of WW2. Granny's face was set like stone. Tears streamed down my mother's face. Insensitive little brat that I was, I felt the prospect of war was exciting.

I wonder whether the current generation could withstand tragedy on that scale. And I even wonder whether they should try to.

[moggiee]

FV - let's hope that our "leaders" never force us into the situation where we have to suffer appalling losses like that.

Seeing whole village's worth of names on war memorials is deeply shocking. When whole villages signed up to the same regiment in WW1, joined the same day, fought in the same battles and were all wiped out in one morning's worth of "over the top and at 'em" the effect on those at home must have been truly devastating.

I am always moved to tears in war cemeteries and at Remembrance Day parades, and I am not ashamed to admit it.

[LoeyDaFrog]

As normal, the pressures of the current job ensure that I only get to review the forums sporadically; however, every now and then a gem such as this arrives. Those of us still in the job and proudly doing what is asked of us, despite the 'best' efforts of those who just do not understand our way of life, will, I'm sure take some sort of comfort from the much more elequent words of those who have gone before us.
It has always struck me that it is only those who take up the call to arms who really understand what Rememberance day means, and that there is a perculiar irony that those of us who wage war, would rather not as we know what it is like.
I know I'm going to be on the recieving end of a few posts, but it has been 'a bad week at the office' and the thread hit a nerve.

[grusome]

May I add a piece of my own scribbling?


Flanders Re-visited

We learnt, at father's knee, a verse
By John McCrae. In couplets terse
It tells of men who long ago
In foreign fields took on the foe
That we might grow.

These are the dead. The wond'ring mind
Scarce comprehends the awful find
Each time we halt. At Passchendaele, Tyne Cot, Frommelles
The serried ranks bespeak the hells
That are men's fears.
And poppies grow,
Refreshed by tears.

What is the fight? Who is the foe?
The torch we caught - how should we know
The trust they did on us bestow?
And yet,
And yet,
'Tis Freedom, sure, they did beget,
That we might grow.
Lest we forget.

Let's NOT forget.

JDG, April 2004

[The Swinging Monkey]

A good mate of mine read this poem out at the recent funeral of another good mate. He told me he had 'doctored' some of the words to make it more aplicable to aircrew! Well done Terry, it's nice........
Its simply call 'Flying West'

I hope there's a place, way up in the sky,
Where aircrew can go, when they have to die.
A place where a guy can get a cold beer
For a friend or a comrade whose memory is dear.
A place where no doctor or lawyer can tread,
And a scribbly-type would not be caught dead!
Just a quaint little place, kind of dark, full of smoke,
Where they like to sing loud, and love a good joke!
The kind of a place where a lady could go,
And feel safe and secure by the men she would know.

There MUST be a place where old aircrew go,
When their wings become weary, and their airspeed gets low;
Where the whisky is old, and the women are young,
And songs about flying and dying are sung.
Where you'd see all your mates, who'd "flown west"
before,
And they'd call out your name, as you walked thru the door,
Who would buy you a drink, if your thirst should be bad,
And relate to the others, "He was such a nice lad!"

And there thru the mist you'd spot an old guy
You’d not seen for years, though he'd taught YOU to fly,
He'd nod his old head, and grin ear to ear,
And say, "Welcome, my son, I'm pleased you are here!
For this is the place where true flyers come,
When the battles are over, and the wars have been won;
We've come here at last, to be safe and alone,
From the government clerk, and the management clone,
Politicians and lawyers, police and the noise,
Where all Hours are Happy, and these good ol' boys,
Can relax with a 'cool one', and a well deserved rest.."
"Cos this is Heaven my son, you've passed your last test!"

Farewell AWACS Warrior
RIP Paul
God Bless

Kind regards to all
The Swinging Monkey

[FEBA]

"The old army died so gloriously at Ypres because the battle they had to fight called for those qualities of unflinching courage and dogged self sacrifice in which they were pre-eminent. They were given in the opportunity of dying for their country and they died uncomplaining. It occured to no one thet they had to die in that fashion because the men responsible for their training had never learned the lessons from history, had never realised what resources modern invention had opened to them, with the consequence that men had to do at the cost of their lives the work which could have been done with one quarter the losses at one tenth the risk of defeat if they had been adequately armed and equipped."

The General
C S Forester

True today as it was in 1914

Wilfred Owen
Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil\'s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Swinging Monkey.

A truly beautiful poem written by a TWA Captain. I chose it to read in my eulogy to ex Lyneham C130 and Britannia Captain, Chas Finn-Kelcey MBE, at his funeral in April. Still a much loved and missed friend who I think of almost every day. As does Di and his children, as well as his many other friends.

I will as usual pay my respects to the fallen in my own way on Sunday. Especially, I have to say, those who fought in WW2 so I could be here today. I do not forget those heros of WW1 either - brave men one and all.

God bless every single one.

[Caractacus]

I tried to buy a poppy in my local (London) road the other day. I traipsed around about a dozen shops and met with totally blank expressions when I asked to buy a poppy. A couple of shop assistants looked at me as if I was trying to buy opium. One newsagent said that the old lady who 'used to come round' hadn't been heard of this year.

The generally cool looks from people in a highly cosmopolitan area were frankly disturbing.

I have no problem with folk coming to live in my country. However, it would be nice if they understood that the freedom they sought here was actually hard won by millions of our people dying in the last century.

[BeauMan]

I didn't get to see this thread last year, so glad I've found it this time round. I have nothing to add in terms of poetry, but I'd just like to say that the poem posted by Scroggs on the second page of this thread has brought tears to my eyes.

God bless them all; those who served, and those who serve today. And may all those whose lives are on the line today, come home safely.

[moggiee]

The airport at which I work is shutting down for 2 minutes tomorrow at 11.00 so that all can pay their respects.

As a former WW2 training airfield (which suffered it's fair share of losses) it is a fitting tribute.

[scroggs]

the poem posted by Scroggs on the second page of this thread

I'll own up, it was written by me and my (then) 7 year old daughter after a long talk about the meaning of Remembrance Sunday, my own days in the RAF, and how she'd have felt if I'd gone away and not returned.

As a result, she has a better understanding of what Remembrance Sunday means than most unaffected adults.

[InFinRetirement]

I'd forgotten about that Scroggs.

What a beautiful poem. It ought to be where others all over the world can see it you know.

I can't really see through the haze to finish this. Tell your daughter she is a very clever lady. Some heart there mate!

[stbd beam]

scroggs

I read this thread with the usual smile, befitting the emotions that sometimes surface at pprune.

I must admit to I being a sensitive old soul now, however your (and daughters) poem touched a nerve and I printed it off, tucked it into my diary, to go flying with me and the other snippets and treasures stashed therein.

Thankyou

[Tim Mills]

What a wonderful thread; many thanks.

When will mankind learn?

[bad livin']

News 24's coverage of the two minutes silence and attendant ceremonies around the UK was tasteful and lent the day appropriate gravitas. Only one thing disturbed me about the broadcast, which was one of our Scottish journalists commenting on the fact that there was apparently some discussion about whether those opposed to actions in Iraq should wear the poppy this year. It saddens me that someone, regardless of their political view on the situation, cannot bring themself to adopt the simple and respectful symbol of the poppy on a day like today.

The previous comments about the teacher's ignorance troubled me. I remember as a kid that we were given plastic stalked poppies to wear. Surely those are still around?

[Jordan D]

Am currently studying in Edinburgh, and was so pleased to see the amount of students, like myself, who stood outside the University's War Memorial in Old College from just before 11 til just after in perfect silence, with only the gun of Edinburgh Castle break the peace. So pleased to see so many people of my age there to remember those who have fallen to protect the lives of the people of this nation.

I shall be at Old College again this Sunday for the Universities (Edinburgh, Napier & Herriot-Watt) Service of Rememberance, which if it is anything like last year I know will be well attended.

Jordan

[airborne_artist]

I doubt that it is a co-incidence; The Telegraph today published obituaries of three aviators from each of the three services. You can read them here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=RVKOPH4CIZMM5QFIQMGCM5WAVCBQUJVC?menuId =558&menuItemId=-1&view=HEADLINESUMMARY&grid=P9&siteId=5&targetRule=10)

[50+Ray]

Just layed a wreath on behalf of BWOS at the eleventh hour in sunny Manama. The Old Christian Cemetery provides a moving location. Long may the tradition continue!

[Chalkstripe]

Just sent to me from Mrs CS:

Three million poppy petals - symbolising the dead of the two World Wars and all the conflicts since then - will be dropped from two original World War II aircraft in an unprecedented flypast over the Thames tonight (11 November 2004) to mark the start of Remembrance Weekend 2004.

The Royal British Legion and Shell are working together to stage the flypast in a move to boost the annual Poppy Appeal for 2004. The London night skyline will be lit up with spectacular red light projections, with moving images of poppies cast onto Shell Centre. The light show will run for four nights through to Remembrance Sunday (14 November 2004).

The two minute fly past of two Douglas Dakota DC3 aircraft will take place at 6pm. The flight path will start at Tower Bridge, with every bridge from Tower Bridge to Westminster Bridge lit up in red, along with other prominent landmarks including the London Eye and National Theatre.

Brigadier Ian Townsend, Secretary General of The Royal British Legion, said: “We are delighted that Shell has chosen to help The Royal British Legion to highlight Remembrance and the Poppy Appeal in this way. Today is Armistice Day, the day the guns fell silent at the end of the First World War. Sadly, it was not ‘The War to End all Wars’. The Second World War followed and there has only been one year since then in which a serviceman has not been killed or injured on active service. Today, we remember them and the price of freedom. We hope that this Poppy Drop brings our message into people’s everyday life for, despite the passing of the years, the need for the Legion’s help remains as strong as it ever was.”

Mary Jo Jacobi, Vice President of External Affairs, Shell International, added: “Shell is proud to be supporting the Royal British Legion to mark Armistice Day and commemorate the start of Remembrance Weekend 2004. We hope the support we are providing to help stage the ‘poppy drop’ will encourage people across the country to buy their poppy before Sunday.”

[Blacksheep]

The inscription on the war memorial at Kohima reads;

When you go home
Tell them of us and say
For their tomorrow
We gave our today.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Jordan D

I well remember the ceremony in the Old College from about 40 years ago when I was boss of the UAS. It was about our only chance to show off our drill in front of the profs. It was remarked how slick and well turned-out were the UAS cadets compared with the OTC. As for the RNVR lot - oh my gawd! I hope you enjoy your time at Edinburgh as much as I did.

We reopened our village church (closed since 1993 and in the care of the Churches Conservation Trust), spruced it up a bit and the ladies did their thing with flowers and coffee afterwards. The Rector said a few prayers, I hung a wreath on the war memorial, and of course we had the 2 mins silence. On Sunday we have the "full works" in the merged Parish church nearby. But since it will be embedded in the normal Sunday morning service, it will not be so poignant. For a start, I managed to persuade a few "non-believers" to come to the Armistice Day ceremony.

[Iron City]

In the U.S .Memorial Day is the last Monday in May. It started out as Decoration Day, officially changed to Memorial Day in the 1880's though my late grandmother always called it Decoration Day. It started out as a memorial to Civil War veterans (though it was basicly a Union holiday, not observed as such in the south, who observed state holidays such as Virginia's Lee- Jackson Day). In that was a country of about 35M put about 4M men under arms (on both sides) and about a quarter were killed or wounded.
Today it seems to have gained back some of it's previous meaning as a holiday and not just the unofficial start to summer when swimming pools open and white shoes are in style.
As a ROTC cadet we provided firing partiesforsomelocal observences and were very very honored to be asked and worked hard to make a good job of it.

Thought I understood Armistace Day/Veterans Day until visiting the Scottish National War Memorial a number of years ago. The story of just finishing up the memorial to the Great War with it's apalling casualties and waste and then turning around and having to turn it into a national memorial to add WWII is just too much sometimes.

[MightyGem]

There was a short article in the Daily Mail today about the fact that for the first time ever, there were no WW1 veterans at the Rememberance Service at Ypres yesterday. Sad, but inevitable I suppose, as they are all over 100 years old.

[moggiee]

There are, I believe, only about 3 or 4 British WW1 veterans still alive. There was an article on the telly about them a few months back. Deeply moving to see/hear what they had to tell us.

[DC10RealMan]

I have just returned from Ypres where I attended Rememberance Day at Tyne Cot and the Menin Gate. I am not ashamed to admit that I was in tears at the ceremony in the Ypres Cathedral. The following day I went to Arras where my Grand Uncle and all his young comrades in arms from the Royal Scots fell in 1917. Later that day I returned on the Eurostar to Waterloo to be greeted with a report in the London Evening Standard about some people wanting the public to boycott the wearing of poppies as an act of spite to the Bush-Blair relationship. What the hell is going on!!!!!

Tony Fallows
Swanwick ATC Centre

[PPRuNe Pop]

Two very proud WW1 Veterans were on the BBC Remembrance programme this evening. The younger was 104, the older one was 108! They look brilliant and were both enjoying the moment. No more than I was as a matter of fact!

[410]

A truly excellent thread. Mr Moderator, could I suggest you flag it and resurrect it again for next Nov 11th?

***

In Australia, Nov 11th is commemorated, but it is overshadowed by April 25th – ANZAC Day. I’ve toured the military cemeteries of Northern France and like many others who have written here, found myself deeply affected by the experience.

However, for an Australian, nothing along these lines compares with a visit to Gallipoli, particularly the dawn parade at ANZAC Cove on April 25th. The site is unique in a number of ways – there is no central cemetery, but a collection of small (and not so small) beautifully maintained cemeteries right at the site of the major battles within the ANZAC beachhead. Many lie within yards of the spot where they fought and died. It also remains almost as it was in 1915, as it is a military reserve, and only in recent years are some developments being allowed in the area.

Helles, where the Brits and the French fought in larger numbers, is only a few miles south and is also well worth the visit, particularly the site of the calamitous ‘River Clyde’ landing. However, the area is mostly settled now, and this unfortunately lessens the effect – or it did on me at least.

After my first visit there, I wrote a small piece of fiction. I’ve posted it on Pprune before, but I hope I may indulge myself by doing so again. If it’s a little cynical for some, I apologise, but the horrors of the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia were very much in the news at the time. Gallipoli, April 25th 1993

It was so much smaller than he had imagined. In all these years, his mind’s eye had always pictured something of far more epic proportions. However, standing here on the old front lines, from this one spot he could see it all.

He turned his back on the ragged green ridge line to face the dazzling blue sea so far below. Now, the scars of the long ago battles almost completely erased, the panorama before him seemed wildly overdone - like some landscape painting heavily retouched, its artist carried away in his search for perfection. Who could picture that pristine horizon marred by the squat grey shapes of warships, the pebbled beaches littered with the paraphernalia of war, and in between, hundreds of small boats scurrying back and forth like frantic worker ants?

He had not been prepared for this, certainly not for the almost breathtaking beauty that surrounded him. The sea and sky were more blue, the colours around him brighter than he had ever seen before, as if never sullied by man. The very last of the letters had been absolutely right - no writer’s pen could do justice to this scene.

Now, as he stood on the windswept ridge in the midday sun, the ghosts were gone; but on the beach, in the freezing hour before dawn, they had been all around him, the gentle ripple of the waves like many whispering voices, the bitterly cold breeze off the ink-black sea like ghostly fingers tracing softly through his hair. He had not been alone in feeling it. Many of the others gathered shivering in the light of the guttering candles had shared that faintly haunted look. Had it been only in his imagination he had heard the muffled creak of oars, the soft crunch of long boats grounding on the coarse pebble beach, sensed the gasping breaths of overladen, desperate young men as their heavy boots first touched this alien shore?

The beach was narrow - no wider than a country road - and the gorse-covered slope behind it steep and treacherous. Here the young men of two opposing armies had met and died, one side a half a world away from home, the other fighting for their Motherland.

This morning, microphones in hand, the eloquent, polished young men of the media had spoken to the old adversaries in the patronising tones that youth reserved for the elderly. They prompted the bent old men to recount unlikely tales of a sportsmanlike, almost gentlemanly war, where hate and high passion had been put aside - and to a man, the old veterans had humoured them, saying only what they knew their audience at home would want - could bear - to hear.

The reality had been very different. So small had been this arena that the dead had remained where they fell, sharing the bitterly contested ground with the not yet dead until the earth slowly reclaimed them. Today, some spoke of glory, but few who had been there remembered any glory amidst the lice and bloated corpses of brothers and close friends.

He walked south along the narrow road, the well-defined gullies close on either side once the front lines of the two opposing armies. The hand-drawn map led him through the crumbling trenches and onto a narrow path through shoulder high scrub. Unable to keep his footing, he stumbled down the sheer slope, crashing through the thick clinging branches to find himself suddenly in the small glade.

He had arrived.

He knew it would be here, but to come so suddenly upon this island of perfectly tended lawn on the untamed hillside still took his breath away. A cemetery, just one of so many in these hills. There were hundreds buried here, but so very few graves. For most, their only memorial was their name on the long lists on marble tablets on the low sandstone walls.

...believed to be buried here are...

In what other battlefield did the dead lie so scattered, buried where they fell, so that their final resting places became the very ground on which they had died?

Third row, fourth from the left. Here, exactly as the map described it, was his grandfather’s grave, one of the very few to bear a name. His fingers traced the weathered marble. Here had been a man, a living, breathing man. What had he been thinking, what had been his hopes on the day he died upon this lonely hill, still little more than a boy? He’d had so much to live for. A teenage bride, an unborn son, a new nation - hell bent on squandering its first generation on an uncaring Empire’s distant battlefields.

He looked around the deserted, windswept slope. Was this - could it ever have been - worth dying for? The sheer futility of this small marble slab on a Turkish hillside chilled him far more than the cutting pre-dawn wind had done upon the beach.

The ghosts were back, recognising him as one of their own.

Remember us, brother. We died upon these hills...He flinched, almost expecting to see the milling spectres surrounding him, as a swelling chorus joined the first whispering voices inside his head. And us. We died at Stalingrad... Verdun... Gettysburg... Waterloo... Agincourt... Cathage... Thermoplyae... Troy.

No longer young himself, he shook free of the insistent voices and set off up the steep slope. Fifty years after this gigantic bloodletting, the bent old men of both sides had stood together on these hills as round-bellied politicians spoke of great deeds and noble sacrifice. His own forgotten war was almost thirty years behind him now. In years to come, would sleek, silver-tongued men who had never known a battlefield’s stench make speeches filled with platitudes about that conflict as well? Should he survive like those few ancient men on the beach this morning, would he find himself one day beside some frail, almond-eyed veteran of the other side - and would they be asked to reminisce fondly about honour and glory in their war for a public who wanted to believe in such fantasies?

And still the senseless cycle went on to this very day. Fifty years from now, would tottering old Bosnians and Serbs tell the young the same tired lies as they shook hands over another mound of young men’s bones?

As the chill wind cut through him, he feared he already knew the answer.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Nice post 410.

I will leave the thread for other comments for a couple of days on what has for some, no doubt, been an emotional day. I will as last year make sure that I bring it back a week or so before the next 11/11/11.


God bless.

[DishMan]

Just dropped this into the JB Remembrance Thread and was pointed here.
Eyes very moist!

Sorry this is a bit late...I only just got sent it.

Many people do not understand why keeping the silence on armistace day should still be such a big deal.

I'm not ashamed to say that I had moist eyes watching the clip and listening to the words.

For the video clip and a full explaination of why the song was written please read about it here:

A Pittance Of Time (http://www.terry-kelly.com/pittance.htm)

[scroggs]

Thanks, DM, I'll keep that one for next year.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

I think the most moving moment of all was the Cenotaph march past when the BBC coverage caught a little girl or about 6, being held by one hand, and clutching a wooden cross with poppy in the other. She was wearing (Dad's?) medals on her right side. She thrust the cross towards the camera with a BIG, proud, smile. Have to admit, tears welled.
:sad:
Hope Bliar slept well that night......
And that's from a true patriot.

[propulike]

Although not the Remembrance Day time of year, it was sixty years ago today that British troops entered the Belsen concentration camp. The BBC has placed THIS (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/4445811.stm) on their website. It is a slideshoe overlaid with the original radio report made by Richard Dimbleby, one of the first reporters to arrive. It is a very moving and very repectful reminder why we must never forget.

[Flatus Veteranus]

I remember listening to Richard Dimbleby's broadcast, which was relayed by 2YA (BBC-equivalent) in NZ, where I was at school. Since when, I have always found it difficult to adopt the fashionable aspect of contrition when contemplating the destruction of German cities, such as Dresden. There is a non-PC , nasty side of me which cannot help thinking "they deserved all they got". Which is unfair - I have met some most pleasant Germans.

[PPRuNe Pop]

When I arrived in Germany in 1951. I had not been there more than four days before we were told that all four squadrons were being taken in a convoy to Bergen-Belsen. We had heard of it, but not that many!

The sight we saw was actually memorials and the remnants of the camp and a field, a not very large one which had a small post with a simple piece of wood on which was enscribed "Here lie 1000 bodies."

On a larger monument, atop of which was the star of David, which said "Here lie the bodies of 30,000 Jews exterminated by the murderous Nazis. Earth shall not conceal the blood shed on thee." There were other words which I cannot remember. Probably because these were the ones etched in my mind to this day and forever.

For these young soldiers it was a time of shock, real shock, and we went back to camp in some distress. That lasted quite a while for me and still does.

Mans inhumanity to man has never changed these thousands of years. I guess it never will.

[Kiting for Boys]

Thanks for the link.

A good effort from the Beeb

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Time to bring this thread back to life.

Lest we forget.

[Jordan D]

Very true. Lest we forget indeed. I have to say that this year, I am honoured to take part in the parade at Old College in Edinburgh, as a member of a senior University Committee. I look forward to my annual chance to pay my respects to the great men and women of this country.

Jordan

[Epsilon minus]

Shakespeare wrote many a rousing speech but one of my favourite and one that lends itself to this time of year is the St Crispin day speech Henry V

King
What's he that wishes so?
My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin;
If we are mark'd to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires.
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England.
God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more methinks would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is call'd the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian.'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.'
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words-
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

Pprune Pop
Would change the title on this thread to 2005 please
EM

[shoutingwind]

I was in London this year for the VE/VJ day events, and during the final event at Horse Guards they played the last post. I couldn't help but burst in to tears- last time i'd heard it played i was in Basrah watching a repatriation but without revalee. An old lady in front of me took my hand and held it throughout the two minute silence, while tears streamed down my face.

I remember those who have gone before me and who gave their youth to give me freedom, and now i am giving my youth. Young and old- we are all touched be the pain of War. I will not forget, we must all remember them.

[The Proctologist]

Let us remember those that are giving their lives now as well those that gave theirs for our freedom.

As the old man said 'one of us may be next!'

[opsguy10]

One of the most worthwhile posts.

My grandad served with the BEF in Dunkirk and was one of the ones to get away to go on to fight in Burma. My dad has always made me aware of what he did and I will make sure when it becomes my turn to have children I will make sure they are made aware.

They deserve our upmost respect both to the guys of then and the servicemen and women who put their lifes on the line now so people like myself can live our lifes in safety.


Opsguy

[Epsilon minus]

A Pathfinder at Peenemunde Sam Hall

A Minister was given the job of running the Peenemunde raid by Churchill, Duncan Sandys. We were told that it was such an important target that if we didn't get it that particular night, we'd go back until we did. For me it was one of the most memorable raids. In the Pathfinder force you had to be accurate. Your target indicators had to go down on time because the rest of Bomber Command, the main force, was waiting to see those target indicators at the time that they'd been told. Now in order to achieve your timing, you had to keep time in hand in case the winds were such that you couldn't get there at the time you expected. When you got near the target you had to get rid of that time, and one way of doing it was to do dog-legs. You would go 60 degrees to the left, say, for 2 minutes and then come back 120 degrees, and by doing that you'd have an equilateral triangle for every 2 minutes. For every 2-minute leg you lost 2 minutes along the main track. That wasn't the best way of losing, but most people did it.But in our aircraft I had an arrangement with my pilot whereby I'd say a 1-minute turn or a 2-minute turn, and he would do a 360-degree turn and then go back on track.That would get rid of the time in one fell swoop. We did this in front of the thundering herd of Bomber Command behind us, but we reckoned it was worth it. We did that manoeuvre that night and it saved our lives. When we straightened up I decided to have a look at the war, pulled the navigator's curtain back, and immediately a German fighter came across our nose so close I could see the crosses under the wings and the wheels in place. The fighter had committed himself to a curve of pursuit against us in such a way that he'd expected us to be 4 miles further on and he couldn't reorganise his curves to get behind us. After we'd bombed, the mid-upper gunner said, "There's a fighter coming in! It's got a Lanc, it's got another, it's got another!" Three Lancasters were going down in flames. You didn't waste too much time thinking about it. So many things were going on - all sorts of lights in the sky, flashes on the ground. I knew the first Master Bomber on that raid. When he got back to Wyton he was still bathed in perspiration. He'd had to fly above the target for the whole extent of the raid.'

Sam Hall,
Bomber Command Pathfinder navigator

With Dimbleby aboard John Gee

'The army was bogged down about 10 or 15 miles short of the Rhine. February came and they were anxious to break out because V2's had been bombing the south of England. The armies were going to make their final push to get across the Rhine, and Bomber Command was asked to knock out a number of targets in front of the army. Cleve was one of them.

Cleve was a little town about 4 or 5 miles west of the Rhine, 10 miles from Nijmegen. There were 295 Lancasters and 10 Mosquitoes from B Group, and we had to bomb this target because it was thought to be a road and rail junction. The town had been virtually destroyed anyway, but it was a place where Panzer reinforcements might be brought up to resist the army push. Cleve was only just in front of our own front line troops, so we had to be jolly careful that we didn't bomb our own troops.

The weather forecast was good. There was no cloud about. Richard Dimbleby came up to Scampton that day, along with his engineer and his recording equipment. As I was the senior officer flying from 153 Squadron that night I was nominated to take him. I had two extra bodies on board which made us quite a lot overweight, so to reduce it we ditched some gallons of petrol. I was tickled pink to have him with me. He came up to the squadron and we sat with him and had a meal before we took off. He was a big chap, and of course when he sat alongside me the flight engineer. who would normally be there, had to stand behind and operate all his gauges and things. We were a bit pushed. You couldn't really get past in the fuselage with all the recording gear. He had an engineer to operate it. He had to squat down in the fuselage. I can't imagine anything worse than squatting in a Lancaster for 4 or 5 hours waiting to operate equipment for probably no more than 5 minutes.

It was only when we got near the target that he started to make his commentary. We were flying at 11,000 feet and couldn't see a thing I thought, "What are we going to do? We can't drop our bombs on our own troops. "Suddenly we heard the Master Bomber calling us down below 4,500 feet. If you can imagine 295 Lancasters coming down from 17,000 to 4,500 feet through cloud. Why there was no collision I just don't know. Now they talk about a near miss if an aircraft goes within 10 miles of another. There were 295 near misses there all at one time.

There below us was Cleve, and the target was marked by the Pathfinders and searchlights were reflected off the cloud - it was like daylight. And you could see the Lancasters coming out of the cloud like darts. Then we had to bomb the target from 4,500 feet. The bombs were exploding and the aircraft was being bounced all over the place. Richard Dimbleby made his commentary, which was broadcast the next day on BBC radio. We knocked Cleve out completely, so much so that when the army advanced the next day there were so many bomb craters and so many broken roads that it quickly came to a halt.'

John Gee,
Bomber Command pilot

[London Mil]

I, like many, lost relatives in both the Great War and WW2. On Sunday, I will remember not only the sacrifice that these people made, but I will also think about some closer friends and colleagues that we have lost in the more recent past. Some names that many may recognise:

Paul Adams
Dave Sunderland
Phil Brewer
Jim McMenamy
Rick Cook
CJ Weightman
Pete Stone
Mike Andrews
Richie Rees

There are more, but, for whatever reason, each of the above will return to me for two minutes this Sunday.

[short&shapeless]

London Mil, a large proportion of your list recalls my time at Gutersloh - I too often think of Ada, Pete and Jim.

And who can forget Rick whilst Brian's Thread has to be kept going.

I will be at the local Memorial this Sunday paying my dues to those who are no longer with us.

"servicemen just pawns on some other b**gers Chess Board".

S&S

[Zoom]

What amazes me about the anecdotes from the various wars, WWI & WWII in particular, is the matter-of-fact way in which they are told. It all seems almost ordinary and routine. My father wrote a short piece at the time of his experiences in Burma and it came across as just a few days of doing what he was paid for. This included his being wounded by a Jap (sic) sniper and carted off to be 'patched up'. It's only Hollywood, Elstree, Ealing and the rest that give war the Wow! factor.

[Tracey Island]

Thanks for this thread.

It has been mentioned before in another thread but I defy anybody not to have been moved by last night's BBC programme "The Last Tommy." If only our political Lords and Masters on both side of the House of Commons had even a smidgen of these Tommies' fortitude, incorruptibility and gallantry what a marvellous country we'd live in.

We can live in hope s'pose....

[C130 Techie]

Tracey Island

Here, Here

I fear however that we live in a different age now where such values mean little.

It is sad that so so many gave their lives fighting for those values that seem so often undermined today.

I hope against hope that they did not die in vain.

[soddim]

Not only are those values undermined but the way we treat our ex-service people is also a national scandal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/4425248.stm

Why should so many who gave so much have to live on so little?

[vstol1]

Two fitting poems I had not seen before.

THE FINAL INSPECTION


the soldier stood and faced God,

Which must always come to pass.

He hoped his shoes were shining,

Just as brightly as his brass.



"Step forward now, you soldier,

How shall I deal with you?

Have you always turned the other cheek?

To My Church have you been true?"



The soldier squared his shoulders and said,

"No, Lord, I guess I ain't.

Because those of us who carry guns,

Can't always be a saint.



I've had to work most Sundays,

And at times my talk was tough.

And sometimes I've been violent,

because the world is awfully rough.



But, I never took a penny,

That wasn't mine to keep...

Though I worked a lot of overtime,

When the bills got just too steep.



And I never passed a cry for help,

Though at times I shook with fear.

And sometimes, God, forgive me,

I've wept unmanly tears.



I know I don't deserve a place,

Among the people here.

They never wanted me around,

Except to calm their fears.



If you've a place for me here, Lord,

It needn't be so grand.

I never expected or had too much,

But if you don't, I'll understand.



There was a silence all around the throne,

Where the saints had often trod.

As the soldier waited quietly,

For the judgment of his God.



"Step forward now, you soldier,

You've borne your burdens well.

Walk peacefully on Heaven's streets;

You've done your time in Hell."


~Author Unknown~




It's the Soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.

It's the Soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.

It's the Soldier, not the politicians that ensures our right to Life,
Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

It's the Soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag.

[shandyman]

vstol1: nice poem, thanks for posting. Couldn't agree more with the sentiment at the end regarding freedom of speech etc.

[Circuit Basher]

London Mil - bit late coming back on this one.

One name on the list had particular personal memories - I was on IOT (same flight) as Dave Sunderland. Saw in Air Clues a few years later that he got a green endorsement in his log book for some act of derring do, flying a Tonka. Next I saw was that he was one of a Tonka crew brought down in GW1, IIRC. RIP, Dave.

[grusome]

For those Englishmen who now only think of Aussies as serious sporting opponents, I would like to illustrate an aspect of earlier life. It is hard for me to believe that your Government has seen fit to declare us alien when you look at these sentiments - and indeed the consequences. Both young men had only recently left school - Scotch College, Melbourne. Australia's top scoring pilot of WWI, Robert Little, also left this school to go directly to war. He failed to return.

For England

The bugles of England were blowing o'er the sea,
As they had called a thousand years, calling now to me;
They woke me from dreaming in the dawning of the day,
The bugles of England - and how I could stay.


The banners of England, unfurled across the sea,
Floating out upon the wind, were beckoning to me,
Storm-rent and battle-torn, smoke stained and grey,
The banners of England - and how could I stay?


O England! I heard the cry of those that died for thee,
Sounding like an organ voice across the winter sea;
They lived and died for England, and gladly went their way,
O England! O England! how could I stay?

-J. D. BURNS, May 1915

James Drummond Burns, died 18 September 1915, buried in Shrapnel Valley at Gallipoli. He never did see England.



Boyd Cunninghame Campbell Thomson is buried at Flers in France. He wrote:

To The Mother School

Mother, thy blessing! the time has come
To follow the rest of thy stalwart sons
Forth, to the sound of the rolling drum,
So soon to be lost in the roar of guns,
Where the banner of Britain to glory runs.
Mother, thy blessing! the time has come.

Mother, thy blessing! before we go,
Leaving all that is dear to heart,
Love of the home and the fireside glow,
Love of music and delicate art -
With these and more it is hard to part;
Mother, thy blessing! before we go.

Mother, thy blessing! for life was sweet,
Sweet with the love of a thousand things,
And every hour that sped so fleet
Flung a flood of joy, as the morning flings
The light of life from its radiant wings.
Mother, thy blessing! before we go.

Mother, thy blessing! we want for thee,
"Twas little to give, but much to lose;
But how could we think of thee else than free,
While supple of sinews and strong of thews?
How could we falter, or worse - refuse?
Mother, thy blessing! we want for thee.

Mother!, our brothers have gone before;
They call - they call us to join the fray,
And shadows of faces that are no more,
The faces we loved so, cold and grey,
Cry loud for vengeance; how can we stay?
Mother!, our brothers have gone before.

Mother! Thy blessing! and then good-bye!
While you wish for your sons a happier aim
Than that a man go forth to die
For a faith that is more than an empty name,
For a faith that burns like a scorching flame,
Mother! Thy blessing! and so good-bye!

August, 1915

And for what it is worth, this day at the school a new scholarship was instituted to commemorate Hugh Syme, GC GM and Bar.

Lest We Forget

[nutcracker43]

PPrune pop,

Belsen was not an extermination center although it was a concentration camp. Agree with you though that it was an abomination.

NC43

[Rakshasa]

For those Englishmen who now only think of Aussies as serious sporting opponents, I would like to illustrate an aspect of earlier life. It is hard for me to believe that your Government has seen fit to declare us alien when you look at these sentiments - and indeed the consequences.

Times have certainly changed. I've met some top aussies, both in the service and out. But sadly I've also met far too many sporting an illogical pom hating chip on their shoulder.

Readin those, I find it sad in a way how far both countries have become estranged.

[LoeyDaFrog]

There have been a number of articles in the newspapers over the last 2 or 3 das about 'the younger generations' not knowing or understanding the significance of today. Well, my two young children have been studying Armistice as part of their primary school history project; and this in turn has led to a whole host of questions to me 'cos daddy is in the air force'.
I will be taking both of them to a local parade on sunday, as a way of preserving in them why we must never forget all those, from all conflicts, who have made the ultimate sacrifice.
I'm sure there are many other schools across the country (along with many 'service brats') that are all doing their bit as well, so lets be thankful that all is not lost.

[gaunty]

grusome me too, I don't suppose its ever going to change, my old school has a similarly long and glorious tradition of military service overseas right up to modern times.

As you would know EVERY Australian country town and suburb ( up to the late 60's) has as its centerpiece a War Memorial that often starts around the Boer War with additions thru the subsequent ones.

There are few if any old Australian families who did not lose sons and daughters or have wounded in the cause of Dominion and Empire.

My generation was still looking to the UK as the mother country and our politics, ethics, morals and attitudes were inextricably interwoven with theirs, my old school was then and still is run along the same strong values of service.

The Veterans Repatriation Hospital just around the corner is now nearly empty of our returned and the War Cemetary nearby is no longer expanding.

My 82 yr old father who survived Lancasters in Bomber Command still has the memories of those he served with who never returned, buried very deep. His best mate, my Godfather, had got off the Sydney in Fremantle before she was lost only to have the ship he went to have a very rough time indeed. Whilst physically fit he is still not mentally strong, paradoxically ?? one of his sons was at one time a hot favourite for Archbishop of Canterbury, but he like his Australian father are still "aliens"

It took some resolve many years ago for my father to return to the UK and the Europe he had only seen from the air.

Being sent to the "Aliens" queue on entering the UK was something that did not sit well with him and still does not with me.

The recent events in the UK and Australia are very very disappointing for this generation of men who fought so very hard alongside each other for common ideals .

One no longer needs to have the language, nor the culture or history of this country to gain citizenship, one can still take ours without relinquishing the old and keep a foot in both camps.

We need to be ever mindful of the why of why and the what for our parents and ancestors gave up their lives, so should those who now enjoy the rights and privileges so hard one.

Lest We Forget.

[Wingswinger]

To this deeply moving thread I'd like to add the names of those whom I knew who gave their lives doing their duty:

Flt Lt John Roberts
Flt Lt Jim Downey
Flt Lt Steve Beckley
Flt Lt Rob Green
Flt Lt Dick Thomas
Sqn Ldr Bruce Cogram
Wg Cdr Keith Holland
Flt Lt Ian Dixon
Flt Lt Mike Barnard
Flt Lt John Sheen
Flt Lt Steve Wright
Flt Lt John O'Shea
Flt Lt Mike Smith
Flt Lt Al Grieve
Wg Cdr Nigel Elsdon
Gp Capt Bill Green
Wg Cdr Nick Slater

"No man is an island, entire of itself"

[la calda]

Politicians have already come in for some stick on this thread, quite possibly rightly.

Flip side of the coin. As a very lowly local councillor somewhere in the wilds of North Britain I will today attend three remembrance day ceremonies. The congregations in each are very small, no more than 40. I will be there to lay a wreath on behalf of my authority.

The three churches are all attended to by the same minister. He and I start at 9 am and go through until 12 noon. There’s tea & biscuits after each one but we can only attend the last one as we have to rush off to the other two ceremonies. After that it’s become the custom for the minister and myself to repair to his for a dram where my wife collects me, sometimes much later. There are 67 of my councillor colleagues who will also be doing this to varying degrees elsewhere in our region tomorrow.

I’ve just finished ironing my white shirt and black tie. My suit, coat, scarf and gloves are laid out, my shoes are immaculate. The wreath I lay will be the only one these people will have. There are no forces reps, no British Legion, no scouts or guides. I want to put on a good show for them as I’m the only official recognition they’ll get tomorrow. Their gratitude is enormous. They are mostly very elderly and there are fewer each year. As the congregations dwindle even further I'm sure these churches will either merge or close soon. Until then I am privileged to be able to carry out this duty.

[Hueymeister]

Saw the Albert Hall ceremony, well done everyone, moving and respectful. Liked the RM show.

[old-timer]

We remember them all - everyone last one of them,
top men & women , one & all forever young
Godspeed all in service now & before,

[bletchleytugie]

la calda wrote

"I’ve just finished ironing my white shirt and black tie. "

Shame the Prime Minister didn't!!

Still wasn't as bad as Michael Foot in his duffle coat


Bletcheytugie

[airborne_artist]

Flypast by Merlin and Puma over Wallingford was timed to perfection, and at flypast altitude, not the FL50 of last year!

[Onan the Clumsy]

I read Saggitarius Rising by Cecil Lewis and he mentions flying over the line on the morning it finished. He saw a few people raise their heads then more and then he saw people come out of the trenches, but what stays with me is that he said he could hear them cheering.

Oh to have seen that day. My Great Uncle missed it by a month.

[grusome]

Gaunty,

"We need to be ever mindful of the why and the what for our parents and ancestors gave up their lives, so should those who now enjoy the rights and privileges so hard won."

So true!

How times change. I seem to recall that my PPL of 1961 had "Nationality: British" upon it! Interesting, considering that I'm the sixth generation of my family in Oz. However, my father's generation still saw fit to leave home for King and Country - meaning the King and his country as well as their country.
However, it's fair to say that I'm not sure whether I left home for Queen and Country even tho' she saw fit to give me a bauble on that occasion. I think I went because I was told to!

Cheers
Gru

[Data-Lynx]

gaunty and grusome. It's not just Australia. Many old schools face challenges from the family backgrounds of the students. Had the honour to attend the Armistice Day commemoration at my son's school where all their losses were remembered, regardless that good friends had gone on from school to serve their country, on both sides in both world wars.

[PPRuNe Pop]

I will let this one slip away now but feel free to add until it does. I will revive it next year. Thank you for all your contributions, one or two of which bought a few tears to the eyes all round, certainly to mine.

PPP

[Kiting for Boys]

Thanks for finding this again...the url is still haunting

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/remembrance/flash/index.shtml

The names of the British servicemen who were killed on the last day of the Great War

[bibendum]

I'm a civilian, but as a Scout leader I arrange for our group to take part in the local Remembrance Sunday parade each year.

Week in week out at meetings the boys are 'challenging' to say the least but last Sunday they made me proud of them. We had a bigger turnout than for any camp and their behaviour was exemplary. On a troop night uniforms are hidden under coats on the way to the meeting for fear of ridicule, but on Sunday they were proudly worn parading through the town.

Deep down, and it is well hidden sometimes, they care - just like the rest of us.

[Blacksheep]

There's two sides to everything, including remembrance it seems. I was very moved when I came across this on the BBC website...For the few veterans who remain, their private lives have become public property. Alfred Anderson - at 109 the last man alive to have witnessed the unofficial truce on Christmas Day 1914, when German and British soldiers played football and exchanged gifts - had thought the war was behind him.

"See all these years I've been trying to forget. It's all being raked up again. I thought I was going to die peaceful like."

[PPRuNe Pop]

I promised that this thread would appear every year so that we could remember the fallen of two world wars. Since then we have terrible losses in this current year which has been very hard on so many families and friends. So many lost in both Afghanistan and Iraq - so many more to remember.

I think it is right that I put this thread before you earlier so that the opportunity is not missed to remember a comrade in their own way.

God bless those who serve and those who are no longer with us.

PPP

[jumpseater]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c270/2012images/crop0002.jpg


If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England.

[Safeware]

To keep things in one place, and not to lose the Afghan and Iraq youtube clips from the front page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UoWTK5qKS0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfAg_QBEF_E&NR

These are only boys and I will never know
How men can see the wisdom in a war

sw

[Roland Pulfrew]

PPP Thanks for bringing this back for this year.

To whoever put the videos on youtube - Thank You. Very moving. If only we could get Broon and Blair to see them!!!

And for the person that asked on the Remembrance in Afghanistan thread the track is Run by Snow Patrol from the Final Straw album. Makes the pictures very, very poignant somehow!!

[C130 Techie]

PPP -Thanks

Very moving videos

To those no longer with us - Rest in peace. Your sacrifice will never be forgotten.

To those still fighting - Stay safe

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Spot on.

I concur with the above.

RIP

Duncs

[Tartan Giant]

To all those who Fell never to rise and go home - RIP
Some readers may not have seen this RAF Memorial in Winchester Cathedral.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/TartanGiant13/ChichesterCathedral.jpg
We WILL Remember them.
TG

[buoy15]

Safeware - Thank you
Both videos are poignant, respectful and excellently produced - in particular for me, the 2Uo
Should be made compulsory viewing for re-shuffled Defence Secretary's and Ministers as part of their 'new boy' training package
I suspect Bliar and Broon have been warned off PPrune because the truth hurts!:O
Also read that Bliar got a mobile phone yesterday - possible progress at last?
"Hello where are you? - I'm at No 10 - Is that before No 11? - Yes, as far as I'm concerned, No 11 is a long way down the road! Byeeee!
ER-1, Cromwell, Ludd and Enoch Powell must be turning in their graves:(

[doubledolphins]

Every year, for as long, as I can remember I have attended a Remembrance Day Parade and worn my poppy with pride. First as a Wolf Cub (yes I am that old) then a Scout. At School and ever since then in Naval Uniform. All those years ago in deepest Worcestershire I listened to the Roll of Honour. Names that became so familiar over the years I could almost recite them. That List never changed, possibly over the years it still has not. But in many parishes across the country it will have grown. People I have served with and drank with are on those lists.

This year I urge you all, start wearing your poppy now. You do not have to be a tv presenter to do that. Show your solidarity with the fallen and wounded. Go to your Remembrance Parade. I shall be in Liverpool, one of the largest gatherings outside the capital, but still room for more. Show the Nation and the Government that you care, you Remember and that you will not Forget!

[debsh]

As the occasional piece of poetry sneaks in, I'm putting in this one; it was written in 1929 by Richard Aldington who did his share on the Western Front. It shows that some things don't change over much:

Eleven years after the fall of Troy,
We, the old men - some of us nearly forty -
Met and talked on the sunny rampart
Over our wine, while the lizards scuttled
In dusty grass, and the crickets chirred.

Some bared their wounds;
Some spoke of the thirst, dry in the throat,
And the heart-beat, in the din of battle;
Some spoke of intolerable sufferings,
The brightness gone from their eyes
And the grey already thick in their hair.

And I sat a little apart
From the garrulous talk and old memories,
And I heard a boy of twenty
Say petulantly to a girl, seizing her arm:
'Oh, come away; why do you stand there
Listening open-mouthed to the talk of old men?
Haven't you heard enough of Troy and Achilles?
Wy should they bore us for ever
With an old quarrel and the names of dead men
We never knew, and dull forgotten battles?'

And he drew her away,
And she looked back and laughed
As he spoke more contempt of us,
Being now out of hearing.

And I thought of the graves by desolate Troy
And the beauty of many young men now dust,
And the long agony, and how useless it all was.
And the talk still clashed about me
Like the meeting of blade and blade.

And as they two moved further away
He put an arm about her, and kissed her;
And afterwards I heard their gay distant laughter.

And I looked at the hollow cheeks
And the weary eyes and the grey-streaked heads
Of the old men - nearly forty - about me;
And I too walked away
In an agony of helpless grief and pity.

[Rocket Chucker]

As a relative newcomer to the site I’ve only just found this thread. I don’t think I can add much more to what has already been said. As the RBL Poppy appeal slogan says ‘Remember the dead, but don’t forget the living’. So as well as remembering those who have made the ultimate sacrifice this November 11th, I’ll be praying for the safe return of our troops wherever in the world they’re serving.

As for the verses and songs on the thread I’ll just add Waltzing Matilda. It’s caused a fair amount of controversy in the past for one reason or another – mainly Eric Bogle the writer. But this, along with the Green Fields of France captures how I feel each year around this time.

When I was a young man I carried me pack
And I lived the free life of the rover.
From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback,
Well, I waltzed my Matilda all over.
Then in 1915, my country said, "Son,
It's time to stop ramblin', there's work to be done."
So they gave me a tin hat, and they gave me a gun,
And they marched me away to the war.

And the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
As the ship pulled away from the quay,
And amidst all the cheers, the flag waving, and tears,
We sailed off for Gallipoli.

And how well I remember that terrible day,
How our blood stained the sand and the water;
And of how in that hell that they call Suvla Bay
We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
Johnny Turk, he was waitin', he'd primed himself well;
He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shell
And in five minutes flat, he'd blown us hell,
Nearly blew us right back to Australia.

But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
When we stopped to bury our slain,
Well, we buried ours, and the Turks buried theirs,
Then we started all over again.

And those that were left, well, we tried to survive
In that mad world of blood, death and fire.
And for ten weary weeks I kept myself alive
Though around me the corpses piled higher.
Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head,
And when I woke up in me hospital bed
And saw what it had done, well, I wished I was dead --
Never knew there was worse things than dying.

For I'll go no more "Waltzing Matilda,"
All around the green bush far and free --
To hump tents and pegs, a man needs both legs,
No more "Waltzing Matilda" for me.

So they gathered the crippled, the wounded, the maimed,
And they shipped us back home to Australia.
The armless, the legless, the blind, the insane,
Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla.
And as our ship sailed into Circular Quay,
I looked at the place where me legs used to be,
And thanked Christ there was nobody waiting for me,
To grieve, to mourn and to pity.

But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
As they carried us down the gangway,
But nobody cheered, they just stood and stared,
Then they turned all their faces away.

And so now every April, I sit on my porch
And I watch the parade pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march,
Reviving old dreams of past glory,
And the old men march slowly, all bones stiff and sore,
They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war
And the young people ask "What are they marching for?"
And I ask m'self the same question.

But the band plays "Waltzing Matilda,"
And the old men still answer the call,
But as year follows year, more old men disappear
Someday, no one will march there at all.

Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda.
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me?
And their ghosts may be heard as they march by the billabong,
Who'll come a-Waltzing Matilda with me?

We will remember them.

[Maple 01]

I was doing my analyst thing today in Old Lakenham, a quiet backwater on the outskirts of Norwich, checking out the local overgrown graveyard for signs of drug taking, when I came across the CWG headstone for 41902 Sgt EW Harvey RNZAF, Air Bomber killed 16 Dec 1942, son of John Lambert Harvey and Sarah Harvey, Husband of Josephine Harvey of Milford. He was 27.

The information I do have came off the internet he was on 75 Squadron around the time they were converting to Stirlings. His aircraft, R9245, AA-E crashed on takeoff from RAF Newmarket killing all the crew, 2 Brits, 1 Canadian and 4 Kiwis. I have no idea why he is buried in Lakenham all alone; he has no obvious link to the area. The Curate is going to ask around

I just thought it was necessary to share this

[Brian Dixon]

Maple 01,
Doesn't say why Sgt harvey rests where he does, but does provide a little more information: http://lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=9624

Lest we forget
Brian

[Rocket Chucker]

Just found this in today's Daily Mail. The lottery fund are at it again deciding that remembering our fallen post WW2 doesn't qualify for funding.:ugh:

The DM have picked up on it and the following link explains all.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/memorialappeal

A fitting and worthwhile cause.:D

[skua]

TG

re that moving memorial in Winchester Cathedral - it celebrates airmen from Sussex, so why is it not in Chichester Cathedral?

you tube vids are very moving - they should be on public transport systems such as the Heathrow Express, to get them to a wider audience.

Skua

[Mike Read]

The Memorial was unveiled in Chichester Cathedral on 15th September 2006 in front of a congregation of ex RAF and WAAF guys and girls who had served at stations in Sussex. It was followed by a flyby of a pair of Typhoons and a little later, a Hunter. Jerry Mudford was a prime organiser.

[RFUK]

Apologies for making this my first post, but I've migrated from arrse for a few minutes to drop a link to a remembrance video I thought might be fitting at this time of year.

The YouTube link is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtl5kmWrFLg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtl5kmWrFLg)

Any comments, suggestions and criticism is very much appreciated.

RFUK.

- Almost forgot, a high res version is available for anyone who wants it (around 60 meg). The link is: http://putstuff.putfile.com/1680/5102577 (http://putstuff.putfile.com/1680/5102577)

[RFUK]

Thanks for watching. Thanks for the comments.

[bad livin']

Thank you also. Was taken aback a bit by the sudden appearance of a good mate, James, and his fiance on there. RIP fella.

[Zoom]

This piece says it all about the sacrifices made by so many of our troops for your and my freedom. My father was part of the Forgotten Army for 4 years and fought at the Battle of Kohima Ridge, where he was badly wounded, but he survived and was awarded the MC for his bravery there. But he lost many good comrades at that battle, which marked the turning point in the War in the East. This piece just cannot be bettered:

The Kohima Epitaph

When you go home
Tell them of us and say
For your tomorrow
We gave our today.

[stickmonkeytamer]

A beautiful tribute- well done. I'll be at a funeral for one of those in the video next Wenesday. I think that this fits the feelings and memories I have perfectly.

Lest we forget.

SMT

[FFP]

A well made, thoughtful and fitting tribute RFUK. Thanks for posting it.

[PerArdua]

The poppy means so much more this year and this video made me cry.

PA

[4fitter]

RFUK

Although a senior RAF bod I also have a handle on 'the other side' and am delighted you have shared your work with Pprune. Cannot fail to be moved and yes, there are faces we know on your film but they will not be forgotten. Thank you.

4f

[snaggletooth]

Can anyone enlighten me as to what the music is?

Very moving production, I'll be at the Cenotaph on Sunday in deep thought.

Thanks for posting it here.

God Bless 'em

[Almost_done]

Can anyone enlighten me as to what the music is?


It is by Evanescence and the track is My Immortal.

[chiglet]

RFUK,
Thanks a LOT for a great Tribute. Unfortunately we lost ANOTHER fine chap today.........
Won't say what I feel.......
chiglet

[gar170]

found this on the goat

It is the soldier, not the minister
Who has given us freedome of religion.

It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedome of the press.

It is the soldier , not the poet,
Who has given us freedome of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organiser,
Who has given us freedome to protest.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier, not the politician,
Who has given us the right to vote.

It is the soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And who's coffin is draped in the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

[Wycombe]

I shall be standing in quiet contemplation for those minutes at my favourite place to be on Rememberance Sunday this weekend.

There will be a few hundred others there, some wearing the Uniform, along with others who have done.

There have been too many since I was last there a year ago.

RIP

[vigilant_spacey]

******* awesome is all i can say. No matter what anyone thinks about Iraq, our boys and girls are out there doing there job for their country - for every last one of us. The ultimate sacrifice; we WILL remember you.

[AlphaMale]

RIP Guys, I take my hat off to these people who put their lives on the line in order for us to enjoy what we have 'as written in the poem above'.

I just hope we can get our boys and girls home safe soon and end this horror. :(

Nice video - Quite moving I must say.

Andrew

[sarsteph]

Thanks for posting some great vids. There were some faces in there I knew well :( . This Sunday I'll be saying a prayer for the families who've been bereaved too. It's all too easy to forget those who are left behind...

[airmail]

RFUK

Thank you for creating what is probably the most poignant video that I have seen for a long time. I will be showing it to my kids so that they get a full appreciation of Remembrance before their parade on Sunday.

Regards

Dave

[ZOFO]

RFUK

I don't know what to say your video is a fitting tribute to all, It filled me with a sense of grief and the need to remember others. I will remember tomorrow my friends and work mates and all that have been lost. One thing that made my day today was my youngest Zofo coming home and telling me that his school had sold out of Poppies, let us hope the message is getting through.

We Will remember them

[OPSQUEEN]

Words fail me re the video - I'm just reduced to tears now. The loss of life is just so dreadful. Today is going to be a very difficult day for a lot of people. My thoughts are with everyone involved.

[Maple 01]

Today I went back to Old Lakenham and placed a wooden cross of Remembrance on the grave of Sgt EW Harvey RNZAF for a brave man who died a long way from home.

To all our Commonwealth US and European allies – thanks for answering the call

[betty swallox]

Wonderful videos. Thank you. Very, very moving.

[WorkingHard]

A very heartfelt thank you to all who serve. It is not enough to say thank you and give medals earned but what else can we do? Remember, remember, please remember all who serve and especially those that have fallen defending what we believe is right. I hope the churches are packed tomorrow.

[OPSQUEEN]

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n97/OPSQUEEN/Poppy.jpg


For my Dad

x

[Tombstone]

OPSQUEEN,

we will remember him.

[wrecker]

Please bring this back next year.


We Will Remember Them

[Roland Pulfrew]

Time to bring this to the top again?

Sadly many more to remember.

[west lakes]

In the course of researching a Book of Remembrance we came across this, whilst it was written about one it applies to all.

Cleator Moor 'Roll of Honour', World War One

Lieutenant Claude Leslie Blair, M.C., Royal Engineers [Killed in Action, Ypres, 16 June 1917]

Transcription of a poem in 'The Whitehaven News', 28 June 1919 ('Local and Other Verse'):

Lieutenant Claude Leslie Blair, M.C.: Killed in Action, June 16 1917

Sad news has come across the wave, from the fire-swept fields of stricken France
That Blair, that stalwart, true, and brave, has fallen in the great advance.
A Cumbrian true in word and deed; a champion, aye, of honour's laws,
Who freely, in his country's need, answered her call in freedom's cause.

Oft on old Cumbria's football fields, the strongest measured out her length,
As on to the forwards, strong as steel Blair, like a panther, flung his strength.
On fields like these his manhood grew and gathered strength beyond compare;
'Tis meet, tho' sad, in freedom's fight, his peerless strength should perish there.

Dearly he loved his native hills, the dalesmen true, their native lore,
Mid their inspiring solitudes his mind could rise, his spirits soar;
For oft alone he ranged the fells, 'mid summer's calm and thunder's roar,
Alas, their jagged buttressed heights shall know his giant stride no more.

Dauntless in courage, freedom to save, he fell a hero in the strife,
And for his country's freedom gave his manly, brave, young life,
And now he lies amid the brave, and braver never faced a lance,
Close by a gallant cousin's grave, wrapped in the wreathing soil of France.

And thou St Bega's far-famed School, to many a hero the source and soul,
Of inspiration in his youth, shall claim him on thy honour's roll.
Well may old Cumbria wet her e'en, she never lost a manlier son,
But proud she'll keep his memory green, after the fighting days are done.

Ah! Mother Nature, thou hast lost a son who knew thy secret charms
And worshipped thee in all thy beauty, so take him kindly in thine arms.
Bloom on ye flowers of the hills; ye woodland warblers, sweetly sing
He still may range the mountain wilds and hear the woodland echoes ring.

(Author unknown)

Transcribed October 2007

[N.B.: Lt. C.L. Blair, M.C. belonged to the Blair family that had interests in the West Cumbrian iron and coal industries. Before signing up to the Army, Lt. Blair was employed as a mining engineer at Cleator Moor. His name appears on the War Memorial at St John’s Church, Cleator Moor

[Dockers]

The Last Letter of Second Lieutenant Eric Lever Townsend, Civil Service Rifles, died of wounds, 16 September 1916
Dearest Mother and Father,
You are reading this letter because I have gone under.
Of course I know that you will be terribly cut up, and that it will be a long time before you get over it, but get over it you must. You must be imbued with the spirit of the Navy and the Army to “carry on”.
You must console yourself with the thought that I am happy, whereas if I had lived – who knows?
Remember the saying attributed to Solon, “Call no man happy till he is dead”. Thanks to your self sacrificing love and devotion I have had a happy time all my life. Death will have delivered me from experiencing unhappiness.
It has always seemed to me a very pitiful thing what little difference the disappearance of a man makes to any institution, even though he may have played an important role. A moment’s regret, a moment’s pause for readjustment, and another man steps forward to carry on, and the machine clanks on with scarce a check. The death of a leader of a nation is less even than seven days’ wonder. To a very small number is it given to live in history; their number is scarcely one in ten million. To the rest it is only granted to live in their united achievements.
But for this war I and all the others would have passed on into oblivion like the countless myriads before us. We should have gone about our trifling business, eating, drinking, sleeping, hoping, marrying, giving in marriage, and finally dying with no more achieved than when we were born, with the world no different for our lives. Even the cattle in the field fare no worse than this. They, too, eat, drink, bring forth young, and die leaving the world no different from what they have found it.
But we shall live for ever in the results of our efforts.
We shall live as those who by their sacrifice won the Great War. Our spirits and memories shall endure in the proud position Britain shall hold in the future. The measure of life is not its span but the use made of it. I did not make much use of my life before the war, but I think I have done now.
To me has been given the easier task; to you is given the more difficult – that of living in sorrow. Be of good courage, that at the end you may give a good account.
Adieu, best of parents
You ever loving son
Eric

[WorkingHard]

Absolutely right to bring this to the top again. I have said it before and I still believe it is worth repeating; every damned politician should be made to spend several days at war grave sites. To each and evry one who gave the ultimate scarifice - may their God be with them!

[S'land]

Thank you for bringing this thread out this year (my first as a PPRuNe member).

For the past few years I have lived in Germany where there does not appear to be a day of Remembrance.

However, a few days before Remeberance Day last year I had to go to the north of Germany. I stayed in a bed and breakfast just south of Hamburg. The family were very friendly and accepted my bad German with good grace.

I had been sent a poppy from home and was wearing it. On my last evening the landlady asked what it was and why was I wearing it. Suffering from a certain amount of embarrassment I explained that the tradition started after WW1 an that we wore in respect for, and rememberance of, the fallen and that I had relatives who had died in the two world wars and friends who had died in wars since.

She then said that her father had been killed fighting for the German army in WW2. Thinking that I was about to be thrown out I was surprised when she said that it was good that we not only rememberd our dead, but also that we had a visible symbol to wear as they deserved all of the respect that we can give them.

To my mind a woman of great understanding and intelligence.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Once again it is time to remember fallen comrades and I am returning the original thread as I promised to do a few years back.

Sadly, there is rather more to remember this year and so it goes on. However, we must continue to think of the guys and gals who are in harm's way. To thank them for the job they willingly do and wish them to safe keeping.

You are not forgotten.

PPP

[Chugalug2]

Thank you PPRuNe Pop. Yes more to remember, but in tribute to this generation it seems to me that there is more remembering as well. Perhaps it is the very medium that we are using here, but there seems to me more awareness and more preparedness to pay homage to the fallen. On this site alone we have this thread, one supporting the Royal British Legion's call for a proper manifestation of the Military Covenant, and one proposing the long delayed provision of a proper National Bomber Command Memorial.

We Will Remember Them.

[chiglet]

Thanks Pop
We Will [and DO] Remember Them
watp,iktch

[November4]

Carrying out research into the men behind the names on the war memorials - I came across the following in the In Memorium columns of the local paper from the First War period

Pte Arthur Hiscock - Basra Memorial

Out in that foreign field
Lies one we all love well;
We could not hold his dying hand,
We could not say farewell.
Until the day breaks

From his loving Mother and Dad, Sisters and Brothers.

Pte Francis Harding aged 19 - Cologne Southern Cemetery

Out in a foreign country there is a silent grave
Of one we loved so dearly, yet we could not save;
His King and Country called him, he bravely did his best
Till God saw fit to take him to his eternal rest.

Sadly missed and ever remembered by his sorrowing Mother, Father, Brothers and Sisters.

Pte George Dixon aged 23 - Windmill British Cemetery

Can ever a mother forget
The son she loved so dear?
Oh, no, the voice that is now still
Keeps ringing in my ear.

In the quiet hours of the night.
When sleep forsakes my eyes,
My thoughts are ever far away,
Where my dear son George lies.

Somewhere in France he lies at rest,
For his King and Country he did his best,
With other comrades he played his part
And did his duty with a loyal heart.

From his loving Mother, Father, Brothers and Sisters.

[madflyer26]

William McBride



Well how do you do Private William McBride
Do you mind if I sit here down by your grave side
And I'll rest for a while in the warm summer sun
I've been walking all day and I'm nearly done
And I see by your gravestone you were only 19
When you joined the glorious fallen back in 1916
Well I hope you died quick and I hope you died clean
Or Willie McBride was it slow and obscene

Did they beat the drum slowly
Did they play the fyfe lowly
Did the rifles fire o'er you
As they lowered you down
Did the bugles play the Last Post in (Dm) chorus
Did the pipes play the Flooers o the Forrest

And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
In some faithful heart does your memory enshrine
And though you died back in 1916
In some faithful heart are you forever 19
Or are you a stranger without even a name
Enshrined forever behind the glass pane
Of an old photograph, torn and tattered and stained
And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame

Ah the sun's shining now on these green fields of France
The warm winds blow gently and the red poppies dance
The trenches have vanished under the plough
No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now
But here in the graveyard it's still No-Man's Land
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To Man's blind indifference to his fellow-man
To a whole generation who were butchered and damned

And I can't help but wonder now William McBride
Do all those who lie here know why they died
Did you really believe them when they told you the cause
Did you really believe that this war would end wars
Well the suffering and the sorrow and the glory, the shame
The killing the dying, the dying, it was all done in vain
For Willie McBride, it all happened again
And again, and again and again and again.

[Hugh Spencer]

Lie in the dark and listen,
It's clear tonight so they're flying high,
Hundreds of them, thousands perhaps,
Riding the icy,moonlit sky.
Men, machinery, bombs and maps,
Altimeters,guns and charts,
Coffee, sandwiches, fleece-lined boots,
Bones and muscles and minds and hearts,
English saplings with English roots
Deep in the earth they've left below.
Lie in the dark and listen.

Lie in the dark and listen.
They're going over in waves and waves
High above villages, hills and streams,
Country churches and little graves
And little citizens worried dreams;
Very soon they'll have reached the sea
And far below them will lie the bays
And cliffs and sands where they used to be
Taken for summer holidays.
Lie in the dark and let them go;
Theirs is a world we'll never know.
Lie in the dark and listen.

Lie in the dark and listen.
City magnates and steel contractors
Factory workers and politicians
Soft hysterical little actors,
Ballet dancers, reserved musicians
Safe in your warm civilian beds,
Count your profits and count your sheep
Life is passing above your heads,
Just turn over and try to sleep.
Lie in the dark and let them go
There's one debt you'll forever owe,
Lie in the dark and listen.

Written by Noel Coward

[RFUK]

It's that time of year again, and unfortunately we've lost many more young lads and a few young ladies.

Words are never enough, so here's 2007's video - Officially this time, as the Scottish Poppy Appeal Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brDmYnZDUMc

See you again next year!

RFUK.

[waspy77]

I came across the poem below whilst researching my latest visit to Flanders. It is a response to John McCrae's famous poem.
I think it is important to remember, whatever your political belief, that War is a cheque that is written by committee, but is cashed by individuals. The numbers involved may be much less than 90 years ago, but the impact on the individual families is just as great.


Why Wear a Poppy, Donald J. Crawford

Please wear a poppy," the lady said
And held one forth, but I shook my head.
Then I stopped and watched as she offered them there,
And her face was old and lined with care;
But beneath the scars the years had made
There remained a smile that refused to fade.

A boy came whistling down the street,
Bouncing along on care-free feet.
His smile was full of joy and fun,
"Lady," said he, "may I have one?"
When she's pinned it on he turned to say,
"Why do we wear a poppy today?"

The lady smiled in her wistful way
And answered, "This is Remembrance Day,
And the poppy there is the symbol for
The gallant men who died in war.
And because they did, you and I are free —
That's why we wear a poppy, you see.

"I had a boy about your size,
With golden hair and big blue eyes.
He loved to play and jump and shout,
Free as a bird he would race about.
As the years went by he learned and grew
and became a man — as you will, too.

"He was fine and strong, with a boyish smile,
But he'd seemed with us such a little while
When war broke out and he went away.
I still remember his face that day
When he smiled at me and said, Goodbye,
I'll be back soon, Mom, so please don't cry.

"But the war went on and he had to stay,
And all I could do was wait and pray.
His letters told of the awful fight,
(I can see it still in my dreams at night),
With the tanks and guns and cruel barbed wire,
And the mines and bullets, the bombs and fire.

"Till at last, at last, the war was won —
And that's why we wear a poppy son."
The small boy turned as if to go,
Then said, "Thanks, lady, I'm glad to know.
That sure did sound like an awful fight,
But your son — did he come back all right?"

A tear rolled down each faded cheek;
She shook her head, but didn't speak.
I slunk away in a sort of shame,
And if you were me you'd have done the same;
For our thanks, in giving, is oft delayed,
Though our freedom was bought — and thousands paid!

And so when we see a poppy worn,
Let us reflect on the burden borne,
By those who gave their very all
When asked to answer their country's call
That we at home in peace might live.
Then wear a poppy! Remember — and give!

[Brian Dixon]

At the going down of the sun, and in the morning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLaw6lu8png

We will remember them.

Brian
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dogpo/poppy2.gif

[doubledolphins]

You may have noticed on the streets that a few servicemen in uniform are selling poppys. This practice used to be frowned upon but in todays climate it is accepted. It is also very effective. One soldier has been standing in the centre of a large town in the North West since day one of the apeal and has raised £5000 pounds to date. An incresable effort. The RM and RLC have targeted a large terminus on a nearby city and are dooing just as well. Needless to say not one has had to buy any food or drink during this time!

A Fantastic effort. :ok:

[Chugalug2]

This practice used to be frowned upon

As a matter of interest DD, frowned upon by who, and why? If it harks back to the blanket 'No uniforms except when on duty at place of duty' ruling of the IRA campaign, well fair enough. If it was some desire not to alienate those who are 'against war' (as opposed to the rest of us who are clearly all for it) and see service in the Armed Forces as synonymous with being a mercenary then such a callow and cowardly policy was beneath contempt IMHO. I totally endorse your welcome of this initiative. It would be good to see more of our brave young men and women in our midst proudly wearing their uniforms throughout the year, to remind us all that they risk their lives, and all too often lose their lives or are dreadfully injured, on our behalf.

[Dominoe]

I wondered if those that read this forum wish to remember perhaps just one person no longer with us, or crew or a time and a place and share that moment with us all? For me I wish to remember Sgt Glyn Jones 25th May 1988 aged 22. It will be 20 years ago next year he left us - we promised never to forget him and I never will.

[chiglet]

May be the Wrong Thread.
But I think that it is Important
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/chiglet/File0022A50.jpg

[Ad C]

May they always be remembered.

[althenick]

May be the Wrong Thread
... No it isn't
Forever gratefull -
ATN

[non iron]

All of them, everyone.

[Avitor]

Seconded, with my heartfelt gratitude to all of them. RIP.

[Radar O'Really]

For All who wish to remember:

A poem written by an old friend of mine who served 40-45 (without a break) and promptly went batty as a consequence. He recovered and was an inspiration to all who knew him.

LUCK

I suppose they'll say his last thoughts were of simple things,
Of April back at home, and the late sun on his wings;
Or that he murmured someone's name
As earth reclaimed him sheathed in flame.
Oh God! Let's have no more of empty words,
Lip Service ornamenting death!
The worms don't spare the hero;
Nor can children feed upon resounding praises of his deed.
"He died who loved to live" they'll say,
"Unselfishly so we might have today!"
Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.

Flt Lt. Dennis McHarrie, RAF Ret'd.
38 Sqn. MEAF, Barce (near Benghazi) 1942.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Short article in today's Torygraph about the 42 (out of 16000!) villages who did not lose a man in the Great War:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/10/ndefence410.xml

[ExRAFRadar]

To those that have gone, we remember. To those who serve, we salute.

Stag on lads and lasses. When the dark days loom we who are not there with you in body will always be there in spirit. You may sometimes feel alone, rest assured you are not.

[Magnersdrinker]

RIP all that gave all for us to be here today

_o_

I just hope somewhere up there you can look down and see what sacrafice you gave to make us all have a good life now.

Never Forgotten

[chiglet]

Just watched the Beebs "Rememberence" Service..and I shed copious tears. Most of "passion" some of anguish...why oh why did they have second rate singists? Ms Kennedy singing "Jerusalem" was Fantastic The other problem..no sub titles for the Hymns.... apart from those caveats...Well worth the License Fee :ok:
watp,iktch

[gman1911]

I to was most impresses, but utterly Disgusted at Mr Brown for nodding off towards the end. Caught twice on camera.

How utterly disrespectful to serving, wounded and fallen members of the British Forces.

Gman

[Tigs2]

gman
agreed, I saw it myself. I just hope any journos out there have caught it. It deserves to be in the press tomorrow. He certainly doesn't get my vote.

[LFFC]

By the look of it, GB didn't know the second verse to the national anthem either! The leader of the opposition seemed to be up to speed though.

[Hoots]

The PM sleeping, I thought he was deep in prayer. Or was he hanging his head in shame for the lack of funding over many years. As always though brought a lump to the throat thinking of fallen comrades.

[MReyn24050]

Agree that it was very well done by the BBC, Katherine Jenkins was first class as always and I also thought the song "Bring him home" from Les Miserables sung by Alfie Boe was very moving indeed. It was great that the programmes director included the shots of HM the Queen standing for the Chelsea Pensioners and for the entrance of Harry Patch.

[chiglet]

I "didn't" want to go this way...but I wonder just how Bliar and Broon sleep at night....?
Looking at this prog....quite easily, it seems :mad:
It beggars the question, will he be awake at the Cenotaph in the morniong? Or even bother to turn up?
I liked the way that the Royal Family stood to applause the 109yo veteran...but the "audience" didn't....
watp,iktch

[Avitor]

gman 1911....

"Disgusted at Mr Brown for nodding off towards the end. Caught twice on camera".


His autism catching up with him. :cool:

[MrFlibble]

It looked more like he was praying - whether it was him praying to keep his job/cabinet, is another question entirely :}

[Always a Sapper]

Ahh... MS Jenkins ... mmmmmm, yes.... :E :ouch: .....

I degress... As always, a good show and amazing the amount of grit that gets in the eyes, well done all.

Just a thought, but anyone else think this should have been on across all channels rather than just on the Beeb?

[Tigs2]

Always

I think its a great idea. It should as a minimum be on channels 1 to 5 at the same time.

[Magnersdrinker]

Im shocked that Brown was falling asleep , I will have to see for myself but if that the case then im utterly gobsmacked. For a Pm who has already said each pound spent on defence is a waste to the United Kingdom , i dont think he will do his popularity much. Sooner they gone i think we might be able to get Maggie Thatcher out of retirement, for the UKs hope i wish we could

Maggie I love you :)

[9.81m/s/s]

Very very moving. Excellent by the BBC. One tiny faux pas though - my other half is an ex PMRAFNS and was gutted to hear Huw describe them as Princess Mary Royal Naval Nursing Service. OOPS. Tut tut Huw.

[doubledolphins]

Not only did Brown seem to fall asleep but he had to read the words to the second verse of the National Anthem. Ok, I expect most people would have to, but Cameron knew them!


Over all a great presentation, thanks to all involved.

PS, loved the part time booty who managed to march with both arms swinging together in the same direction. Outstanding! (Come on admit it we all love the marching down stairs bit, especially when it goes a bit wrong. I wasn't very good and we had been practicing for three weeks!)

[November4]

For more on the "Thankful Villages (http://www.fylde.demon.co.uk/thankful.htm)"

[cornish-stormrider]

In our church service yesterday, the vicar read out a poem that was about a small child asking about the poppies. Increadibly moving. I had to have a stiff drink after the service.

[Brian Dixon]

Is this the poem, Cornish Stormrider?

The Inquisitive Mind of a Child

Why are they selling poppies, Mummy?
Selling poppies in town today.
The poppies, child, are flowers of love.
For the men who marched away.

But why have they chosen a poppy, Mummy?
Why not a beautiful rose?
Because my child, men fought and died
In the fields where the poppies grow.

But why are the poppies so red, Mummy?
Why are the poppies so red?
Red is the colour of blood, my child.
The blood that our soldiers shed.

The heart of the poppy is black, Mummy.
Why does it have to be black?
Black, my child, is the symbol of grief.
For the men who never came back.

But why, Mummy are you crying so?
Your tears are giving you pain.
My tears are my fears for you my child.
For the world is forgetting again.

It's available as a tea towel via the Royal British Legion shop:
http://www.rblicatalogue.co.uk/catalogueindex2.cfm?i_id=337

Brian http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dogpo/poppy2.gif

[November4]

Went to a remembrance service yesterday evening. The vicar was stood next to the war memorial but it was hard to see as it was hidden behind a wealth of drum kits, music stands and associated stuff. The theme of the service was remembrance.....of refugees....of civilians.....oh and those killed did get a mention. The war memorial did not even have a wreath on it. It was almost as if it did not exist.....

[Whenurhappy]

I was asked by the good townsfolk of our village if I would help organise and attend our local Service of Remembrance, consisting of a church service and wreath-laying at the local memorial. It was very informal.

The parish church was overflowing and I bit my lip a number of times (my eyes are welling up now) when, chokingly, we sang Jerusalem and then I vow to Thee.

The RBL representative read out that poem (op cit) and it suddenly struck me that our boys are still dying in poppy fields. I have recently return from the 'Stan, and having attended some 18 ramp ceremonies out there (UK and Canadian), the Service was almost too much for me as I struggled to maintain composure and not let the side down with a flood of tears. Suddenly the uniforms, the medals, the standards, all look a bit of a sham. It is feelings that are important.

[effortless]

Bit more poignant than it knows.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/martin_rowson/2007/11/12/rowson121107a.jpg

[cornish-stormrider]

And when I heard Elgar's Nimrod being played on the Rememberance Service it didst bring a tear to my eye.

[PingDit]

All a bit spooky!?

[airborne_artist]

If you'd like a really good example of how to do it properly, come to Wallingford. In the town's square, with a good sized detachment from Benson (and a great SWO i/c), the Army cadets who do an honour guard of the war memorial throughout the ceremony, plus ATc, RBL etc who march on to the local Silver Band. Proper bugler (my garage mechanic).

Square lined with people, all with hymn/service sheets. And a good low flypast by Merlins and a Puma.

[Argus]

Last Sunday morning, I was in a queue at Hanoi International Airport waiting for a flight to Bangkok. In an adjacent queue, in a sea of non European faces, there was an English couple, both of whom were wearing poppies. We caught each others eyes, exchanged greetings, murmured "Lest we forget" and went our separate ways. And, against the backdrop of unrelated noise, I remembered ... my family and friends who have paid the supreme sacrifice. A corner of a foreign field, perhaps.

[Trev Clark]

I participated an a Remembrance Parade in the Anglican Cemetery in Malaga, Spain. This was organised by the local RAFA and despite the pleasant warm sunshine, was still very moving and well executed.

The last post was sounded by a bugler from Gib, a small party of RAF and one sailor from Gib were also present. I could not really take good photos from where I standing (after doing a reading), but managed these two shots at the end of the ceremony.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/calypsos/SSL24913.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/calypsos/SSL24914.jpg

[Rocket Chucker]

Probably get this in before the thread closes for another year.

I went to the service in Frome. One of the fastest I have ever been to - I usually go to Westbury but my son plays rugby for Frome and I didn't want to miss getting to a service.

March on at a few minutes to eleven - last post - minutes silence - revielle - quick prayer and all done and dusted - not even a marh off!

I was gob-smacked. Granted you don't need to string the services out for hours on end but I found a little over twenty minutes somewhat insulting, not only to the memory of our fallen, but also for those who are still in harms way.

Grumble over.

The young bugler from the Rifles Army Cadet detachment however was excellent. He nailed every note and went some way to calming my seething brow which was further ruffled when I arrived at the rugby club to be told that the Rugby teams had all observed the silence - but guess what? The footballers just carried on their games. Says something.

Per Ardua

[effortless]

The footballers just carried on their games. Says something.

Oh well I think I would rather that than them doing it because they had to.

I did my remembering in Flanders this year; really hard. the French really do do it with feeling.

[PPRuNe Pop]

This thread, as in previous years is returned to remember the many, and those of the recent past and the last year.

PPP

[Chugalug2]

Pprune Pop:

and those of the recent past and the last year.


That is the contrast between today and my own time spent serving. Other than thinking of my own father, most of my thoughts then were for the fallen of two World Wars. Today the fallen are of the same generation, friends and colleagues who are now no more. That is infinitely sadder and more personal, and as our forces contract must bear down on an ever larger percentage. I am repeatedly struck now year by year of the very real intensity of Remembrance compared to my day, a time to reflect on sacrifice and duty done on behalf of each and everyone of us.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them.

[Hugh Spencer]

When, on Remembrance Day each year you pay your respects to those who gave their all, be it on parade or in the privacy of your home, you naturally give special thought to crews you knew and who didn't make it. It is the one time in the year when maybe you pull out the old logbook and album.....and remember. So many faces....so many names....men, just like you, full of hopes and ideals; men who died never to feel a furrowed brow, a thinning head of hair, never to know the joy of their children's laughter; men, once a fine balance of sinew and bone and muscle and blood; men who talked and laughed and thought and wondered and were afraid. All the memorials in the world cannot recapture their spirit, their gaiety, their courage, their unselfishness.
From the J. Batchelor Collection.
Lancaster at War Book 3 by Mike Garbett and Brian Goulding.

[Variable Trim]

For the first time in Years, I'm not going to be able to attend a Remembrance Day Service as I'm involved in an Ex in Corsica - I hope that there will be some measure of a Service somewhere - fingers crossed; I will certainly be finding a quiet corner to gather my thoughts.

Last year I was at Passchendaele on the 90th anniversary of the battle, Grandfather was there as a RAMC stretcher bearer, took my 2 kids along as well, unbelievably moving at the Menin Gate. If you haven't ever been, do make sure you go. At sunset, when they play the last post, make sure you take a box of tissues !

VT

[Shack37]

Remember also the "Little Wars" and those left behind to "Grow not old" in Cyprus, Radfan and Aden to mention but three.

Bless 'em all.

s37

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Can anyone point me in the direction of a memorial service in Edinburgh or south fife?

[ninja-lewis]

There'll be plenty in Edinburgh.

One of the bigger public ceremonies in Edinburgh is at Haymarket where Hearts have a war memorial commemorating their players who joined up in the Great War. Usually a large turn out for it and I suspect there may be an even larger attendance this year as the Council intend to move it temporarily (they say) to make way for the trams.

Failing that, keep an eye on the Scotsman and the Evening News - they should mention any details of services in the region.

[chiglet]

As an "ex-Serviceman", I cheerfully chuck in my loose [or not so] change into the Poppy tin...but I don't take a Poppy....
Am I doing the right thing?

[PPRuNe Pop]

I used to do that but no is the answer. I believe you wear the poppy for three reasons. One for your own satisfaction, two for the BL coffers and three so that other people are aware. Whether they buy one is another matter.

[November4]

Some entries from the In Memory columns placed by relatives of some soldiers killed in the Great War

Out on yonder battlefield, there is a silent grave,
Is one we loved so dearly, but we could not save,
His King and Country called him; he bravely did his best,
But God thought fit to take him to his eternal rest.

When we last saw his smiling face
He looked so strong and brave.
We little thought how soon he’d be
Laid in a soldier’s grave.
We pictured his home returning,
We longed to clasp his hand,
But God has postponed the meeting
Till we meet in a better place.

Somewhere in France he lies at rest,
For his King and Country he did his best,
With other comrades he played his part
And did his duty with a loyal heart.

Death took you from us in a foreign land
We were not near to clasp thy dying hand
But though the parting’s left us heartsore, desolate
For thee the hand of death did not unlock the golden gate.
And thou hast passed within it’s hallowed portal
Whilst we in hopeful sorrow wait the blest reunion in the life immortal

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/images/logo.gif

[kingoftheslipstream]

As a Canadian, ex - CAF though now a civvy pilot with EK, I have been wearing my poppy on my tunic since 01 Nov and will wear it until the end of the day on 11.11.08

I take great pride in answering year after year many questions I get here about why? and what?, mostly from cabin crew. I had a conversation with a Russian kid the other day... he said speaking of the former USSR, now CIS: "we do the same thing" followed by "we celebrate (a date in May) when we marched in to the Reichstag in Berlin!". I had to laugh at the irony of course.

I have observed, with dismay, that in my home country Canada immigrants do not wear the poppy. I have walked the streets of Toronto, ON (Canada's most mulitcultural city) in vain looking for a person of colour (many of course) but not a single poppy... I must have conservatively seen 6-7000 people that day... not a poppy amongst the immigrants.

That sucks.

In the immortal words of Sir Stephen Spender, poet Laureate of Britain:

I think continuously of those who were truly great...

Lest We Forget

K-O-T-S

[Tappers Dad]

WE SIT QUIETLY WE HEAR YOUR VOICE
WE CLOSE OUR EYES AND SEE YOUR FACE
IN OUR HEARTS YOU WILL ALWAYS BE
ALTHOUGH YOU'RE IN THAT FAR OFF PLACE

RIP Crew 3 120 Squadron

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/images/logo.gif

[fltlt]

Tappers Dad

AMEN

[Spam_UK]

Once again a brilliant, and moving festival of remembrance.

Well done to all involved!

:D

Lest we forget.

[flyingwing]

Personal Digital Imaging: Remembering Remembrance Day (http://www.personaldigital.ca/rem_day/index.html)

O valiant hearts who to your glory came
Through dust of conflict and through battle flame;
Tranquil you lie, your knightly virtue proved,
Your memory hallowed in the land you loved.

Proudly you gathered, rank on rank, to war
As who had heard God’s message from afar;
All you had hoped for, all you had, you gave,
To save mankind—yourselves you scorned to save.

Splendid you passed, the great surrender made;
Into the light that nevermore shall fade;
Deep your contentment in that blest abode,
Who wait the last clear trumpet call of God.

Long years ago, as earth lay dark and still,
Rose a loud cry upon a lonely hill,
While in the frailty of our human clay,
Christ, our Redeemer, passed the self same way.

Still stands His Cross from that dread hour to this,
Like some bright star above the dark abyss;
Still, through the veil, the Victor’s pitying eyes
Look down to bless our lesser Calvaries.

These were His servants, in His steps they trod,
Following through death the martyred Son of God:
Victor, He rose; victorious too shall rise
They who have drunk His cup of sacrifice.

O risen Lord, O Shepherd of our dead,
Whose cross has bought them and Whose staff has led,
In glorious hope their proud and sorrowing land
Commits her children to Thy gracious hand.

[Valiantone]

While I have not watched the Festival of Rememberance on tv, I hope the team I worked with today in the Royal College of Arts next door fed you guys ok.

V1

[chappie]

I have just come from my local village service at the war memorial where we gave rememberance to all who have lost their lives in conflict and those who still serve. i made a prize prat of self by not managing to be stoic and dignified but crying instead (not howling i hasten to add).
The one good thing is that the entire community is involved and we have beavers,cubs,scouts, rainbows,brownies,guides,girls and boys brigade all present. We have TA and ATC as well as legion members. so there a good mixture of every age there so that the memory and importance of the day continues, as it should.


......at the going down of the sun we will remember them.


RIP XV179 and all other brave souls.

[Variable Trim]

Chappie, I think as we get older, particularly when you wear uniform or have done in the past, it gets harder to be stoic when you think of those who have gone before. I know I find it very difficult to listen to certain hymns or read certain poems/epitaphs at this time of the year without a significant lump in my throat. I remember the Cenotaph march past a few years agon - camera close-up on a St Dunstan's representative as he approached the memorial - Smart 'eyes left', fixed the Ceotaph with a sightless gaze, marched past for the requisite 20+ paces and equally smart 'eyes front'. "Gulp".

There's stoic but it can be very hard.

VT

[Chugalug2]

Hits us all at some point in the proceedings VT, doesn't it? Having watched the wreath laying at our town's Remembrance by the great and the good, by the Service Associations etc, it was watching three very young scouts, boys and girls, paying their own respects that suddenly got to me. Thoughts as ever for all those we have lost so very recently as well as my own Dad in WW2.

"They shall grow not old..."

[doubledolphins]

Once again our Service and Parade in Liverpool was a great and moving occasion. This year we had a "Giant Screen" at one end of the parade with a succesion of portraits of the Fallen showing though out the proceedings. I know it sounds tacky but it realy was very moving to see all those young, incredably young, faces staring out at us. The March Past was preceeded by a fly past by a C47 flying in awful conditions.
Also, I am very happy to report that poppy sales are considerably up, once again, in the area. There is a feeling around here that this is down to people feeling more in touch with the military today than has been the case over the past 20 years or so. :ok:

[airsound]

from The Independent, Saturday 8 November 2008

Remember the living, too

......Remembrance Sunday remains among the best-observed and most respected dates in the national calendar. With increased British military involvement in Afghanistan and the continuing – and far more contentious – engagement in Iraq, this country again has thousands of servicemen and women on active duty overseas. And with combat, inevitably, come casualties. As the numbers of the fallen in more recent wars has mounted, so the Royal British Legion has reported rising sales of poppies: it has supplied a record 40 million for sale this year, and 750,000 miniature crosses. A glimpse of the streets of our towns and cities suggests that wearing a poppy is at least as widespread as it ever was.

In this modest respect, the so-called military covenant between the armed forces and civilian Britain would seem to be in good shape. Yet the treatment accorded to the new generation of veterans and their families falls far short of what they should expect. Even if the most glaring equipment failures in the field have been largely remedied, housing for many military families remains execrable, and promises of improvement have mostly remained just promises. But it is the response to the injured – both immediate and longer term – where the inadequacies are seen at their starkest.

The nature of modern warfare and recent medical advances mean that many more injured soldiers survive. Yet all too often they must wait their turn with the civilian population; the very particular circumstances of their injuries may be disregarded; mental health provision remains a poor relation. The answer may be separate, specialised units, rather than the completely separate hospitals of the past, but returning servicemen and women deserve much better than they are getting. A government that sees fighting foreign wars as a national duty must appreciate that the cost extends far beyond the battlefield.

Leading article: Remember the living, too - Leading Articles, Opinion - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-remember-the-living-too-1001087.html)

airsound

[Beatriz Fontana]

Yesterday I was collecting for the RBL... in the rain. Probably got around £50 in the two hours I was there. All ages, all backgrounds. Hardly anyone walked by without contributing, many without taking a poppy at all.

Today, I was with my local RBL at the church service followed by a short ceremony at the village war memorial. About 30 of us - ex-service, service and civilian members - marched behind the standard, stood in the drizzle and you could have heard a pin drop as the traffic was stopped on the main road during the silence.

It was awesome. It's not a large village but the respect was enormous. I was very moved indeed.

[Argus]

Our little village in rural New South Wales, holds the Remembrance Day service on Tuesday 11th November at 1100 hrs. There's a simple War Memorial with names that date from mid 19th Century African colonial wars, the Boer War, the two World Wars, Korea, Vietnam and the Gulf Wars. Nothing fancy or ornate, no Captains and Kings, just ordinary folk like me who remember some very extraordinary mates.

[Wiley]

For the Ozmates out there, on the 11/11th at 8.30, the ABC is showing a documentary on Sir John Monash, the man who (I think it was Benjamin Disraeli who said) would have shortened the Great War by a year if he'd been put in charge of British forces in 1917.

Ask 99% of Australians (and 99.9% of Brits) under the age of 45 (and possibly a lot older) and I dare say you'd be hard pressed to find one who'd even heard of the man. If he'd been a Yank, Hollywood would have turned out a dozen movies about him and every school kid would know his life history. Not the way we (both Brits and Ozmates) seem to treat our great leaders.

Might be one worth taping and putting aside for the young'uns on some rainy afternoon.

[chappie]

i forgot to say earlier that on 15th november ( i think on BBC2) at 9pm start there is a film that is being shown on rememberance. this film covers each and every individual who have lost their life in either iraq or afghanistan either by name or by interview of loved ones left behind or the colleagues left to continue. It will be a shock to all when you count up the names and hopefully make people realise the true cost of these wars. if you can make it then watch it. let us not forget.

you are all such an inspiration. may you be protected ...

keep the faith.

[extpwron]

21:05 -00:10 The Fallen
Families of those who have died in Afghanistan and Iraq talk openly about their loved ones

BBC - BBC Two Programmes - The Fallen (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fpx8g)

[Variable Trim]

Had a 'phone chat last night with OC Domestic who was in a shopping centre yesterday at 1100 (I'm away on HM's business )- two things made her seethe - the mid twenty year old girl in the coffee shop who she heard asking why there was going to be a 2 mins silence and the second one was the ignorant git who talked loudly at his girlfriend all through the silence, this in spite of the Tannoy asking all to observe it. She almost dropped her coffee in his lap ! At least the GF looked embarrassed though. Good thing I wasn't there I'd propbably have got arrested afterwards !!!

Ho Hum.

[Molemot]

This was sent to me by a chum in Hong Kong. Thought I'd share it..hope the link works, I'm not much good at this computer stuff.
http://9c.webmail.aol.com/39598/aim/fr-fr/Mail/get-attachment.aspx?uid=1.21344759&folder=Inbox&partId=4&saveAs=TKeng6mb.wmv

[cazatou]

The 11th November is a Public Holiday in:

Belgium - Canada - France - Poland and the USA.


The 25th April (Anzac Day) is a Public Holiday in Australia and New Zealand.


The UK does not have a single Public Holiday to honour its Armed Forces.

[airborne_artist]

Another very good ceremony in Wallingford yesterday, very well done by all concerned. The SWO was very much in charge, and it ran smoothly, and to the second. The Puma and Merlin flypast was bang on time at the end of the two minute silence. While I'm sure that communities with no Service presence run ceremonies that are just as moving, there is extra spine-tingle/tear factor when serving lads and lasses are on parade in front of you.

The only slight surprise was that the police officer laying the wreath took off his hat rather than saluted.

[S'land]

Since Friday I have been in Austria on business and staying with friends over that period. They have two daughters, ten and eight years old, who asked why I was wearing a poppy and why they were not to disturb me at 11.00 on Sunday morning. They understood about remembering the fallen, after all their parents also had relatives who died during the two World Wars, albeit on the "other" side. I must have explained badly as at first they thought I meant that Remembrance Day is only for the dead of the two World Wars. It was only when their father explained further and I said that 16.000 British service personnel had been killed since WWII and that the killing was still going on in Afghanistan and Iraq that they were shocked. Both of them asked why does it still happen. Neither I nor their parents had any answer.

[November4]

As I was working on Sunday, I went to a local church near where I work. As soon as the service started, I realised I had made mistake - H&S brief from the vicar about the emergency exits at the church...

There was a brief mention of what the day meant - remembering the dead of the war and those being killed in conflicts now.....in the Congo.....Afghanistan and Iraq not mentioned. In fact the Congo got a mentioned 2 or 3 times through out the service.

The 2 readings were not relevant at all to the day from what I could see. Then we had the "talk" - I thought it was called the sermon but that is too old fashioned. Again totally irrelevant to the occassion.

Then we moved outside to the War Memorial and the names of those on the memorial were read out - 2 mins silence. The parade commander from the RBL just gave a "dismiss" to the standard party and we all shuffled off.

The whole service felt as it was a normal service with a bit tacked on because they had to cover the Rememberance Sunday stuff.....The vicar was in her 50 so hardly one of the "happy clappy modern" vicars and the church was built in the 1950s to replace the one destroyed in an air raid in 1941.

Won't be going back to that church again!

[cazatou]

I found this the other day from the memoirs of Colonel Thomas Gowenlock - Intelligence Officer United States 1st Division November 1918. During WW2 he was a Major General in Intelligence.

"OFFICIAL RADIO from Paris - 6:01 AM Nov 11 1918.

Marshal Foch to Commander-in-Chief

1. Hostilities will be stopped on the entire front beginning at 11 o'clock, November 11th (French hour).

2. The Allied troops will not go beyond the line reached at that hour on that date until further orders.

[signed]

Marshal Foch

5:45 AM


Note that the Armistice came into effect in France at 11 AM - which would have been 10 AM GMT.

[airborne_artist]

Note that the Armistice came into effect in France at 11 AM - which would have been 10 AM GMT.

Are you sure that the time difference was one hour at the time?

[time expired]

Pneumonia epidemic,I believe it was called Spanish Flu,
killed more people than the war.In the Bourlon Wood
cemetery there is a whole row of Chinese labourerall killed by
the flu epidemic.
Regards

[taxydual]

Western European Summer Time - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Summer_Time)

[cazatou]

AA

BST was introduced as a wartime measure in 1916 from 21 May - 1st Oct (that year). The Royal Navy (operating around the World) maintained GMT as its standard time for signal purposes. The Army in France operated in French Time which was also the normal Time Zone for the Belgian and Portugese Armies.

It got more complicated in the re-play between 1939-1945 when UK had GMT, Summer Time and Double Summer Time.

[airborne_artist]

BST is not really relevant to this as the UK was back on GMT on 11.11 anyway. This discussion (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t17471.html) suggests that France was on GMT at the time, while Germany was on CET, so the Germans stopped at noon. It's the French who will be out of step now, as a result, if the posts made on that discussion are correct.

As an aside, the father of a friend spent 48 months at the Front from 1914-1918. He told his son that on the 11th after they received the signal confirming the Armistice, his troops not surprisingly kept their heads firmly in their bunkers, while a German Spandau gunner blatted away. At 11.00 GMT he stopped, stood up, took off his helmet, bowed towards the British lines, turned, and walked back to his batallion HQ.

[Brian Abraham]

Why are they selling poppies mother, selling poppies in town today?
The poppies child are flowers of love for the men who marched away.
But why have they chosen a poppy mother, why not a beautiful rose?
Because my child, men fought and died in fields where the poppies grow.
But why are the poppies so red mother, why are the poppies so red?
Red is the colour of blood, my child, the blood that our soldiers shed.
The heart of the poppy is black mother, why does it have to be black?
Black, my child, is the symbol of grief, for the men who never came back
But why, mother dear, are you crying so? Your tears are like winter rain.
My tears are for you, my child, for the world is forgetting again.

[cornish-stormrider]

Thank You Brian.

I watched the service on the BBC, aside from some extraneuos (sp) commentary it was truly awesome. The last three survivors assisted by three current serving heroes, all of them modest, humble and professional.

I had to be at work on sunday but I made sure that the production line stopped for two minutes.

Lest we forget - not on my watch.

I am preparing a large whisky for tonight when the sun dips below the yardarm.

[Molemot]

I was watching the French remembrance, this year at Verdun - which annoyed the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, so much that she decided, yesterday, not to come - and I'm mystified as to the timing. I had expected the ceremony to take place at the 11th hour, French time..but President Sarkozy didn't even turn up until about ten past eleven. Seemed strange to me. Gave up and went back to the BBC to see it done properly.