The trouble with (most) aircraft museums

[Genghis the Engineer]

Last week a group of Ppruners met up for lunch and a visit to the RAF Museum at Cosford. Without doubt it was a thoroughly enjoyable day out, and the collection at Cosford - particularly the experimental aircraft collection, was excellent.

But talking through it afterwards brought to the front of my mind some things that trouble me - where is the information about, and access to, these aircraft.


Now there is generally some basic information about when the aeroplane was built, and an indication of it's size, shape, speed, etc. Any famous pilots who flew the type might also get a mention - and quite right too.


But, for the serious student of aeronautics in it's more technical forms, there's usually nothing.

- What is the aircraft made from, who designed it, why was it designed that way?
- For the visiting pilot, why are virtually all cockpits in museums inaccessible? Okay, I accept the "souvenir hunter" problem, but £100 worth of thin perspex per cockpit should solve that.
- What was the aircraft like to operate?


Some years ago, as an undergraduate at Southampton University I used to regularly go and visit the Hall of Aviation in Southampton. This is one of the better museums for such information (I'm not saying perfect, but better) and I learned a lot that hopefully made me a better student and eventually a better Engineer. I can't help feel that a young Engineer visiting Cosford, Duxford, etc. would really leave little wiser than they arrived. Equally a young wanabee fighter or airline pilot, who'd really like to spend some time sitting and thinking about the "office" they are aiming for will be sorely dissapointed.

Is it that difficult? Surely all the information is fairly readily available, surely aviation museum curators don't really believe that everybody just comes to say "gosh, isn't it pretty - Douglas Bader flew one of those you know".

:confused:

G

[HZ123]

Last night I watched a Ch 4 or CH 5 programme on helicopters. Can someone tell me where the 'Helicopter Museum' is.Ta.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Weston Supermare.

G

[DamienB]

Interesting thread which goes onto a related topic - allowing exhibits to be touched - can be found here (http://www.keypublishing.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16628&highlight=airspace). AdamK demonstrates what the average museum thinks their job is - preservation at all costs and gawd forbid people should get into a cockpit!!

[karrank]

Boeing Museum of Flight in Seattle had a good policy when I was there. Stuff they didn't want touched was up on a wire or had a red hand saying "don't touch". Some had a green hand so you could climb all over whatever it was, sit in the seat, waggle the controls. Good fun.

I see something I don't know about in the museum I either BUY the book in the shop they have or research it myself. I've been reading all I can find about the Republic Seabee lately, and there is just astonishing variety of material free on the net (via Google).

Read a survey about museums in Flypast a while ago, the top 3 reasons somebody would go back to a museum:

;) Toilets clean,

;) Nice shop,

;) Car parking.

They could save a lot of money by implementing that and selling all the aeroplanes:8

[BeauMan]

Genghis,

From what I've heard, access to cockpits has H&S implications these days due to the (miniscule) risk of radiation from the radon paint in the instrument dials. Most museums seem to be of the unofficial opinion that this ruling is rather silly, as we all suffer larger amounts of radiation from our tv sets. Still, good old H&S insist that lines should be toed, so there you go.

However, for people who are serious about gaining access to the aircraft interiors for research purposes, there are usually ways of doing so. Usually best to contact the museums before travelling and arranging some supervised access; we must bear in mind that museum airframes are no longer working airframes but now historic artifacts and must be preserved as such, hence the apparent bar to letting the general public clamber all over them.

Hope that helps.

BeauMan

[wub]

Last year the Museum of Flight at East Fortune in Scotland was forced to cancel its 'Open Cockpit' day for the reason BeauMan states, H & S determined that there was a radiation risk from the instruments.

When I commanded an ATC Sqn we had stacks of instruments, all of which were impounded and removed from the premises for health reasons; what about the poor sods who sat in front of them for thousands of hours?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thanks for the thoughts, but I don't really buy it. There will always be some aircraft that need a great deal of protection (or the public protecting from it), but I don't accept that it's all or even the majority. Would it be impossible, for example, just to have steps up to an open cockpit, and a leaded glass liner keeping radioactivity in and people out?

But more importantly, If I can go to somewhere like the Roman Baths in Bath or CAT near Dolgellau (two of my favourite non-aviation museums), and see huge amounts of information about the exhibits and their uses, buy detailed documents about the history, technology, etc, all without having to make special appointments why not in an aircraft museum?

Basically if as somebody moderately knowledgeable but who has never studied the type deeply, and never worked on it, I can go to an aircraft museum and see rather less about a type - such as for example the Lightning, modified Jaguar and TSR-2 at Cosford, than I knew already then I think there's something wrong.

Yes I accept that for very deep access it's fair to expect visitors to ask and book. But that's no excuse in my opinion for not allowing ready sight into cockpits, fairly detailed technical information and explanation on display, available or on sale - and in many cases it isn't.

G

[treadigraph]

At Brussels I recall being able to have a gander in the cockpits of some of the exhibits - Mil 24 springs to mind; Also the Windsor Locks museum, I certainly recall being able to climb up on the P-47 via a walkway and have a peer, whilst at the Hiller Museum at San Mateo one can sit in an A-4 cockpit - tight, or what! I'm quite broad in the beam, but not what you'd call tall - hell of a small place to go to war in. You can also walk/crawl through Kermit's B-17 at Polk City.

Notice that they are all abroad to us Brits?

In terms of info, I've always felt that the info boards at some museums are way too brief. I think a technical summary and specs, a potted history of the type, and a potted history of the individual aircraft on display are essential...

[FlyingForFun]

I agree. I can sometimes learn quite a lot by looking at the control surfaces, understanding the way things fit together and how they work. But there's nothing like getting up front and imagining yourself taking the controls.

Fortunately, it doesn't apply to every museum. Take a look here (http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40573), where you'll find pictuers of PPRuNers climbing on, in and under various aircraft. Many of the pictures are just showing as a red cross in my browser - not sure if that's because my firewall has blocked them, or they've been removed from their host websites, but there are still a few interesting ones there.

FFF
----------------

[AerBabe]

In my (limited) experience of aircraft museums, the one at Coventry does seem very unusual in that most of the cockpits can be accessed. This does depend on how many volunteers are around, the weather and the number of visitors... but often you can be lucky. I managed to break a bit of a door on one while I was volunteering there, and the response from the management was "oh dear, never mind, we'll fix it" - how refreshing! Of course a careful eye is kept on 'fiddlers', but it just goes to show it IS possible.

[Shropshire Lad]

The Health and Safety issue is the main reason a lot of museums do not open the aircraft up. I've been involved in museums for a number of years and the crowds we used to get for our Open Cockpit days were amazing. Unfortunately the slippery slope was - "they might fall off the tower giving them access to the aircraft" then the H&S issue over the instruments (which is ridiculous but who is going to run the risk?). Then we had the "they've got pointy bits people could walk into" argument. Unfortunately our litigation culture has meant that we have to keep people well away from the exhibits - which is very depressing:rolleyes: Sadly the best way to find out about all the interesting bits of an aircraft is to go and have a poke around!

[John Farley]

Perhaps some enterprising museum will take the plunge and install closed circuit TV in the cockpits that you could control from outside. Then for putting your coin in the slot you could carry out your own detailed visual inspection without any of the problems of allowing real access. Not as good as sitting in it but much better than nothing surely?

[Genghis the Engineer]

The Scottish Sea-Bird centre at Berwick does this with the Gannet / Puffin colony at Bass rock. Good fun, and avoids the smell too!

G

[willbav8r]

I must have been very lucky:

Hiller Museum near San Francisco has a 747 nose section, that a retired UAL Captain kindly showed me around. Although it was the one Boeing product he hadn't flown, he was truly informative and gave some insight into the operations of such a beast.

Castle Museum (outside the Bay Area) usually has volunteers that can give you some narrative about the aircraft, along with a simple pamphlet with historical info and data.

Without such experiences, the planes are still beautiful, but far less understood or appreciated.

Like I said, I must be lucky.......

[Nopax,thanx]

IMHO the museums probably think that the great unwashed don't want to know such detail, so it would be wasted on all but the most serious enquirer - and the larger museums of course don't have the resources to have a volunteer at each exhibit to explain to anyone who cares to ask the intricacies of the beast on display.

A friend of mine who is not aviation related but very well-educated was shown around a supersonic jet in a museum in the States; the guide described shock waves and other phenomena but my friend had to admit that it all went way above her head.

As to the H+S issue, I didn't realise that people had got so worried about radioactive paint on instrument dials; I guess my Boost gauge had better stay in the loft! I can understand how the larger museums can't allow access to cockpits of fighter aircraft in case some little tyke cuts himself - there are lots of sticky out bits. The smaller collections seem to have avoided that one - I have a wonderful photo of Nopax junior piloting a Mirage in a French hangar back in '98...

[Genghis the Engineer]

To be fair, do a search on the subject "Radioactive Boy Scout" on any convenient search engine and you'll see what potential glowing instrument dials have.

G

[Windy Militant]

I had the privilege of attending a fly in at Wroughton just before the PFA rally moved there. As it turned out the weather was foul so not many aircraft turned up. This however turned out to be a blessing in disguise, as the few of us that had arrived by road were taken on a guided tour of the exhibits, including the cockpits of the Connie and Comet. I doubt very much that the current regime would allow that now.
In the light of what I now know is going to happen at Wroughton it may explain why shortly after the Breitling Orbiter flight, the Piccard stratosphere balloon was left languishing in a corner covered in dust. It wouldn't have taken much to brush it down and put a sign on it. little things like that can help enthuse people about the exhibits and help bring history to life.

Having said that the conservation staff based at Wroughton are a good bunch who are horribly frustrated by the way the collection is being treated by the Kensington maffia!

[Weight and Balance]

A very interestng thread. European museums seem a little more uptight than North American ones.

In my experience at the Canadian National Collection in Rockcliffe, the Warplane Museum in Hamilton, the Western Aviation Museum in Winnipeg, and some smaller museums in Alberta, the staff will take the time to answer questions, or find answers, when the crowds permit. Once they know you have some interest and knowledge, they will often let you poke around inside - but they never leave me alone :).

About 20 years ago at Rockcliffe, I asked a guide if I could take a good look up the nose well of a recently retired CF-100. At the time, I worked for the manufacturer of the nose wheel steering system, and I wanted to see the mod status and state of wear on what was one of the last flying Clunks. The guide asked me why I was interested, I explained, he let me inside the ropes, and then he went and got a tech from the restoration shop who had worked on the gear in the RCAF. We had a grand discussion!

I think the main point here is that the guides/guards will make an effort, when time permits. What all museums need is more volunteers, preferably with some knowledge of the exhibits. All you Prunners should have the knowledge, and you seem to have time to waste at the computer. Get out there and volunteer! Now, if somebody would just open an aviation museum in near me...

[paulc]

A couple of years ago 2 aircraft that I am a volunteer with were moved and incorporated into a hovercraft show. We allowed members of the public full access to both aircraft (under supervision and in small groups) and had a very good 4 days.
We removed any loose items to prevent them going 'walkies' and neither aircraft suffered any damage from having the public onboard.

We still get visitors on a regular basis (by prior arrangement) so anybody is welcome.

[Nopax,thanx]

Woooo, Genghis, that's scary - what about his parting shot....

"I don't believe I took more than five years off my life.":uhoh:

Reminds me of the piece I read the other day about the ladies who used to paint the instrument dials in the Wartime factories, and were licking the tips of the brushes to get a nice point on them - many of whom later died from radiation induced illnesses.

So, going a little off-topic, what about all the warbirds flying around with vintage instruments? There must be serious H+S issues with the pilots, engineers and any overhaul shop that deals with them, unless the dials now use some sort of non-hazardous paint.

[JDK]

Good thread this.

Having travelled widely, visiting a/c museums, the good old British ones are the most uptight by far. Some is legislation, some is British 'you aren't alowed to have fun' attitudes.

Almost everywhere I've been though, when I've asked politely, had some idea what I'm talking about, I 've almost always had a great response from the staff.

Genghis' initial points stand though. The arm's length aproach encorages (over)reverence and ignorance. We need more artifacts that can be handelled, as well as preserved.

Museums have 3 functions 1. To preserve 2. To display / present and 3. To enthuse. Number 1 works against 2 / 3 often, and Museum Curators get little thanks for getting 2 and 3 right, so major on 1. They also seem to like 1 over 2 and 3 too!

To be specific. I'm working on a book on the Walrus and Stranraer. The RAAF Museum alowed me full access to their superbly restored Walrus, and I crawled all over it. The RAF Museum can't let anyone in their Seagull V because of 'instrament radiation risks'. We were very helpfully allowed to take pics through the opened side windows of the cockpit, ladder provided by the RAFM. We were allowed into the Stranraer for not more than 15 minutes - this despite the fact it now has NO instraments at all fitted! Why? Legislation run wild. The irony was neither us, nor the member of staff were wearing a radiation badge, which would alow actual risks and doses to be evaluated.

Hope this helps,
Cheers
James

[Evanelpus]

Hi Aerbabe

Do you know my best mate Keith B, he also volunteers at the museum, painted quite a few in his time too!!

[CamelPilot]

I think perhaps it would be wise to think not what people want but what they can have.

Some of the great things we see at museums are, or will be, priceless treasures. The fact is that kids, and their parents, if they are not aviation minded, do not know how to treat these riches. They think that they SHOULD be able to sit in, handle, push, pull, turn, this way or that without any regard for the item. It is also understandable. But we have a duty to protect them.

I have been to Brooklands recently as well as East Fortune, and in each case the exhibits are pretty well untouchable. I have to agree with that. However, at Brooklands I was allowed to sit in the Harrier, which was parked next to the Clerget Camel which they knew I had flown. I suppose I have to admit that it was maybe considered somewhat more desireable for me to do so, but the fact is that they will allow kids to have a sit in the Harrier too - under very strict supervision. But for how much longer? Wear and tear will always eventually take it's toll.

But they cannot touch the 'bouncing bomb' anymore than they could climb into the cockpit of Roland Beamont's record breaking trans-atlantic Canberra at East Fortune. The fear that these relics are now rare and irreplaceable is a very real one.

I would not hide the fact that when someone asks me if I would like to sit at the controls of anything, I would never refuse. I could never have done that when the inviation came to 'handle' the controls of 'AF' (Concorde) at LHR. It was a thrill, as much for me as for Flying Lawyer and PPRuNe Dispatcher, and neither of us was in a mood to refuse.

Anyway, people clambering over aeroplanes can cause any amount of damage and I would prefer that kids and adults alike can SEE but only sometimes touch. That way we preserve them not only for this generation but for many generations to come.

By the way. I also recently went to the FAST museum at F'boro and although it is only 4 or 5 weeks old it already has some remarkable items on display. It is situated in the white building in front of the famous 'black sheds.' It used to be the Farborough Balloon Factory where the great J.W.Dunne built his swept wing glider in 1908. Dunne is mentioned, as he should be, and they have some wonderful designs that were used for testing way back in the early 1900's and many of the subsequent years. The outside display of a T7 Hunter, the Cockpit of Bucc, a complete Lightning and another Hunter is great.

But...............all the exhibits are protected. You can get close - and that is IMHO how it should be.

CP

[AerBabe]

Hi Evanelpus, yes, I know Keith B. Haven't seen him for a while. How's his photography going?

[JDK]

Hi CamelPilot,
Good post. But I don't see where it says you can have only one example of the artifact. A good museum to me has an historic aircraft (agreed, protected from casual touching) and one or two duplicates or replicas that the public can play with. There's got to be a use for all those JPs and Vampires!

Working in a museum, as I do, I know that people get so much more out of a visit when they get to relate to something directly. That is often a chance to touch or handle. I'm afraid I'm with the kids who regard a museum of glass boxes as 'borring' - they are; and we have a duty to educate and inform. Part of that is to avoid the UK museum mantra of 'don't touch' and figure ways that people can touch without damage - replicas, spares, 'handling collections', supervised access, can all be part of the deal.

Cheers

James

[Shropshire Lad]

Good post CamelPilot - the museum I used to be involved with would love to let people clamber into aircraft but the litigation aspect with the radiation has scupperd that despite the fact that we knew (after testing) the radiation was negligible. We had a small airliner which was to be converted to a hands on exhibit complete with access ramps but again issues re litigation come into the frame. And yes everything has to be bolted down!

You don't necessarily have to touch - a bit of atmosphere goes down well so sound, vision and surrounding exhibits all can help to bring an exhibit to life. Have to be careful though as on special event days we've included sound and watched a hangar full of people empty as they rush outside to see what has just "flown" over :)

[I have control]

It might be said that the trouble with (most) aircraft enthusiasts is that they imagine aircraft museums are run for their personal benefit... aircraft Museums are in fact visited by a broad cross-section of society... ages, interests, sexes, social backgrounds etc Typically less than 10% is an aircraft enthusiast.

One of the challenges of running an aircraft museum (this happens to be my job) is how in the heck you keep everyone happy, because their wants and desires are so diverse.

Anyway to speak to the discussion of whether or not to let people in cockpits, we have a spectrum of opinion. At one end is the person who would like "ultimate access" - no barriers, open cockpits, heck you can even take it flying if you want... At the other end of the spectrum is the "zero access" person who would like to keep the artifact in a hermetically sealed vacuum cut off from nasty things like humidity, light and all those ugly people.

Neither end of the spectrum is wholly appropriate. In the first example, the museum is failing in its duty to care and preserve the artifact for the benefit of future generations. In the second example the museum is failing in its duty to provide access to the artifact. What is the use of having it if no-one can ever learn from it?

Most museums are trying to strike the best possible balance between what, as someone has already mentioned, are ultimately irreconcilable goals.

Anyway, as it relates to cockpits, I offer one potential way to mitigate the problem. It gives you a reasonable amount of access to the cockpit of an aeroplane that no curator in his right mind is going to let thousands of people clamber inside. It's free, and you can do it all around the world as many times as you want (but you will need QuickTime).
XP-51 cockpit (http://www.airventuremuseum.org/virtual/interactive/xp51interior.asp)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Two questions if I may...

(1) I always thought that a primary purpose of museums, any museums, is to educate. Now if visiting some kinds of museum, I accept that "history and what the items look like" is the main part of that education, but surely it's a lot deeper than that with any kind of technology museum, aeroplanes included.

(2) Surely it's not beyond the whit of man to make the inside of a cockpit - all cockpits, clearly visible to visitors, even if they can't sensibly be allowed to sit in them? Even a crude plywood mock-up, with some 1:1 photographs of the panels and controls stuck in it would be better than 'nowt.

And on the subject, there are a lot of other parts of flying machines that are worth inspecting close-up, as well as the cockpit. Helicopter rotor hubs, flap mechanisms, etc. etc. That C152 chopped in half at the Science museum is a good example of a way forward in my opinion - no way to treat a valuable antique, but a constructive way of disposing of one of Mr Cessna's less enjoyable products.

G

[Feather #3]

This H&S cr*p about luminous instruments on a one-off inspection is a masked load of codswallop by folk with little to do.

What next; somebody next to me in the bus sues me because the got cancer from my wristwatch??

I fly a number of old a/c with luminous instruments and just like those who flew them in full-time service haven't started to glow yet!

The poor girls who painted the faces as a job are another matter; my heart goes out to them and their loved ones.

BTW I'm told that the GBP500 or so per year for museums to own and calibrate a Geiger counter to check instrument radiation will send a few under if somebody doesn't see reason soon.

In this case; "Only in the UK!"

G'day ;)

[Evanelpus]

AerBabe

Yes, it's going ok, he doesn't spend that much time at the museum now as he has become a part time wage slave.

Next time I talk to him, I'll mention you to him.

[The Old Fogducker]

Hello Folks:

First post to PPRUNE.

The matter of letting the public get close to aircraft is a difficult one.

I have been fortunate enough to visit several museums in the UK and have invariably been impressed with the condition of the displays and the obvious dedication on the part of the staff. Unfortunately, if you want to get close and take some detail pictures or touch the aircraft, you are generally not able to do so regardless of the quality of your pleading, grovelling, or snivelling.

Like so many of us, I would have needed to wear a bib if I had the opportunity to sit in the cockpit of a Spit and have my picture taken!

While I was disappointed at the time, I have changed my thought pattern, and now I think this is a good thing!

I've come to that position after a visit to the USAF Museum in Dayton a few years ago where I was very impressed with the ability to get up close and touch one of the "X Planes" on display. It was wonderful to run my hand across the fuselage and feel the quality of the riveting, observe how well it was constructed, daydream a little and think of what these aircraft had done for the advancement of high speed flight, and have a sort of "spitual communion" with the people that designed, built, and flew this famous aircraft.

Then, I noticed just below one of the windows, some brainless jerk had taken a key, or knife blade and carved his & hers initials inside a heart.....just like it was a tree in the middle of a picnic ground. Made me wish I could string the little weasel up by the neck with piano wire!

Regrettably, I observed the same sort of defacement of aeronautical history at the space museum in Houston, Texas. At one point of my tour, I was touching one of the early Mercury Program capsules that I had watched being launched on TV as a child. During my reverie thinking back at how far I had come since sitting in front of the television and now being able to actually lay hands on this piece of engineering, I noted all manner of scratches and "spoor" left by visitors who really didn't have a clue of the significance of what they were looking at.

Call me a radical, but I say "Lock 'em up" and don't let the great unwashed get their mitts on these aircraft. If they are allowed to touch them, it should be under very close supervision to prevent idiots from damaging them to impress their girlfriends!

Regards to all,
Fog