Emirates DECs

[fullforward]

Any insight on how's been EK DECs screening, is there enough of type rated and qualified applicants?
Is EKs pilot recruitment working at a fast pace on this regard?

Cheers!

[Jim Morehead]

Fullforwrd....that is a goodquestion. Can somebody over there characterize the situation?

When Emirates went to a DEC, does that mean they are depserate? WIll there be any airplanes parked? Can anybody post an airplane delivery schedule over the next few years?

Does Emirates require currency? If one had a 777 rating and last flew it in 1999 is that good or bad? Would a rating actaully make any difference/ I presume Emirates would be giving a full school when one has been off of a given airplane and flying another type now. Is there a bond?

What is the time between applying and starting class? Is the pay during training less than the first year line pay?

I am more curious than anything.

How many pilots does Emirates have?

I ask these only to get a flavor because you can't get on at another company or another part of the world with someone actually being there.

In real life at Emirates,how often would one be there and for what periods of time once checked out?

[halas]

From what l understand the DEC applicants are few and far between. Then there is the selection process to go through. so not all applicants will get a go.

They may be desperate, but l don't know. The hours worked each month is currently on the high side.

They are looking for Airbus guys at the moment.

The 340-300's turn up en-mass from Q2 2004

The 340-500's have started to trickle in as we speak.

The 340-600's late next year, l think.

777-300ER from Q2 2005.

If any one can correct the above please do so.

The difference between orders and deliveries may vary, but from a company document they talk about a delivery of one airframe per month till 2010.

Application for FO positions to interview can vary from a few months to two years or more as there are still thousands in the hold pool.

Your starting salary is year one pay from day one.

There are 840 pilots on the list last time l saw it, but that was a few weeks ago. l seem to only blink and another A4 list of guys has been added.

Time here is up to you. There is a three year bond for the transition.

There is all sorts of other stuff in "The Package" that if you do even a minor search of this forum you will find out about. The good, the bad and the ugly.

Good luck

halas

[fullforward]

Thanks Jim and Halas, you're nice buddies. This Forum misses guys like you!
Further insiders are welcome!:ok:

[Jim Morehead]

Fullforward.....I can ask as many questions as I can answer<bg>!

But I hope PPRUNE is for exchanging views and thoughts with others who can help. Maybe sometimes people want to argue and scream,but it doesn't do any good. We should be here to help each other.

SEE YA

[etops777]

Jim Morehead,

It seems to me that you are looking to jump ship!

Yes, we are here at this forum to help out and exchange info but,
I think you ask a bit too much if you were not looking at EK.

I always thought you had a great time at CAL? maybe the honeymoon is over at CAL and reality sets in. A quick question for you, how come they gave you so many line checks in the month that you had been checked out and later roster you for more?

Trust me, you will see more BS at CAL.

[Jim Morehead]

ETOPS..good questions and I did not mean to imply anything.
I can tell you that there are not many situations out there that I would enjoy going to.

It was almost one year ago when my former company started downhill and then Filed for Bankruptcy in DEC, I recall. I started reading a lot of US and International jobs boards and publications. Although I looked at many scenarios, I only applied one place and that was CAL. That was probably because I was current on 747-400 and they had immediate openings.

From threads other forums, you would see that I became frustrated how some companies and countries would not entertain the though of Direct Entry and US ratings. Then some companies/countries required CURRENCY. Well that was not possible. My 767 ended in 1997 and 777 ended in 1999. I couldn't very well stay current in 4 airplanes.

About that time SQ had stopped hiring in all positions. That essentially left CAL. It was a natural fit for me. In fact,about 6 months before my ultimate retirement decision, I had downbid to 777 from the 747-400 to get current so I could actually have been current on two airplanes for 90 days or so. So I was planning knowing that I was 90% going to retire from UAL. That happened and the rest is history.

Some things work for some people and other things work for other people.

Now to the check ride issue. I think my timing was such that they do give all new Captains a check and some people get a consolidation check as they call it. I think that is done if you were not rated on the airplane. Then Flight Operations decided that people would have a check to SFO and ANC because of the problems these two stations had. CAL has most FOQAs at SFO/ANC/HKG as you undoubtedly know since I think you are a CAL guy. Even though I went to ANC on "my own" in my former life and even one week earlier at CAL,they still insisted I be "checked". I tried to get out of it,but was told it was a CAA requirement. I do not know whether it was retroactive to the incumbent pilots. Then they rode with me to SFO which was my annual check AND the SFO check. So actually I got one LESS ride than possible. And I think I am going to be "checkless (as in check and evaluation) for one full year.

I can tell you I am checked and overchecked,but I don't make the rules. I don't think there is any pilot who loves getting checked and observed because you always have to perform at your peak. So perhaps I can just go fly a routine line trip this week.

BTW, I am 5 hours from getting off high minimums and 1 practice C2 landing from being up with the big boys. As a CAL employee ETOPS, I am sure you know that CAL requires 100 hours PIC before getting off high minimums and letting First Officers fly. CAL often uses 2 Captains on a trip and being the relief pilot does not generate PIC time. So it has taken 255 hours to get 95 PIC.

But the good news to all of this is that I am being paid and when you write a check to the bank every month for mortgages abd bills...they like that!

On your last point, I think I know what the future holds as a CAL Captain. I am prepared for anything.

Lastly, drop me an E-mail or PM so that I can know who ETOPS is and we can further discuss this over beer. I can confirm that there is still some beer and there are still ladies of the night in the ZONE in Taipei. Perhaps you could ask for an airline discount. That was current information as of last night!

ETOPS777...Had one more thought about check rides,etc.

Just for the record, I started in May and got 30 days off without pay because of slow business and SARs for June.

I had the "short course" and it has taken a long time. In fact, it took May,July,and August to complete. In fact we get (required) to go to the fire department and earthquake simulator to get the last box checked that we did not do last June because of SARs. I don't make the rules.

But the good news is that I have a HNL layover in 2 days. I think I can find the island. I did the last time with another airline!!!

[paradox]

What airline is CAL for the uniformed?

[Jim Morehead]

CAL is CHINA Airlines. China in this thread and the Far east. CAL is headquartered in Taipei on the free island of Taiwan not to be confused with its Northwestern neighbor!

I think in North American, CAL is Continental Airlines.

[ruserious]

For those interested, there are just over 70 applications for DEC. Recruitment normally loses about 50% of applicants when recruiting F/O’s. Will be interesting to see what percentage of DEC’s applicants we will take. Supposedly the interview and the recruitment process will be more stringent.

[stormcloud]

Approx 10 days ago I heard 40 applicants of which approx 10 were assessed suitable to do the Ek tests.
IF (big IF) that was the case then statistics would suggest maybe 20 suitable with 10-12 passing the tests.
Anyone know any more?

[CDRW]

Have heard the interview process for DEC's will be a 5 day tea party. What the hell they do with you for 5 days is anyones guess - there are only so many "games' you can play, interviews you can take and sim rides you can do. So to get a peek in, one has to take a weeks leave to jump through the hoops - that is of course if you are employed at the time.

[330 Man]

The process does take 5 days. The first 3 days are the normal assessment process as if you were being assessed as a First Officer, minus the Sim Check. The fourth day is for preperation for the Sim Ride which is on the 5th day. It is a Full PC on the airplane you will be a Captain on. I have been told that the standards for passing the sim ride are very high, as they should be!

[laury]

I have been applying to EK for some time.
Finally i have an interview. I only have command time on the A320 and they said I would be interviewed for DEC.
I mentioned it to HR and they said that they are now looking at A320 time instead of widebody time due to poor turn out of applicants for DEC.
I was assuming I would be going for FO but apparently not.
Is there much info on the DEC process?

[stormcloud]

laury,

Sorry I don't have any info but good luck.

I'm still amazed at the EK approach when there are F/Os with medium jet command time in the company, with PPCs and company knowledge etc etc and they will still be passed over because they don't meet the new hours requirements.

Crazy!

[millerscourt]

stormcloud I think EK took the mistaken view that they would be inundated with Captain applicants type tated on A330/340 and that it would be more difficult to replace existing F/O's if they were promoted to Captain.

It would appear that A320 Captains are now in the loop for direct commands on the basis that it is little different to A330/340.

EK also know that they can afford to upset existing F/O's who are "Captive" in EK in most cases.

Years ago you could not get a direct command in SQ unless you had 3000 hours Wide Body and International experience. B757 did not count!!!

Then along came the A340 and because the SQ terms were so poor and jobs were plentiful then SQ suddenly allowed A320 Captains who were puddle jumpers to join. This whole nonsense of "Widebody Command" was then shown up to be ridiculous.

I guess because EK have shafted their current F/O's with previous command time that applications from Captains as F/O's must now be non existent except perhaps for a few 146 drivers!!

[stormcloud]

Oh so true,

As I have said in a different forum, I'm told that the F/O applications have dropped severely.

A complete fowl up!

[sexdriven]

Fantastic news.
Out of 8 candidates interviewed yesterday,only 2 found suitable.

[fatbus]

out of the 70 or so to be interviewed that would be about 16/104, bring it on. or should I say " show me the money"

[Ze German]

I was told they have 27 DEC's so far...........

[laury]

Yeah,
And I am one of the 27. Just found out on Friday.
But I did not realise the conditions were alot less than a normal Capt at EK. Not that I expect to be treated as an EK Capt as I have not even been there 1 minute. But EK Capt's are paid about the market rate. I therefore declined the offer as I get paid slightly more in my current job. Why would I move? You have to make it attractive. Anyway after I declined the offer I was rung up by someone from EK. I think fairly senior but do not want to mentiion his name. Was asked why. I gave it to him straight, that while there are pilots out there looking for work, you should not take advantage of the situation. Look what has just happened to Silk Air. During SARS they saw an opportunity to reduce wages further (also SQ). But now Silk Air are in big problems. They have had a mass exodus and have notified their travel agents that certain services will be suspended till further notice.
I would rather have joined as an FO.
A colleague of mine, if also offered ajob will decline the offer.

[halas]

Very interseting....

Thanks for your post Laury.

halas

[HARD 2 FIND A NICK]

Laury

What is your current rating?
Could you be specific about the salary? Cash and benefits how much that adds up? The number of kids is an important factor on the equation. No kids buuuu , 5 that is a good subsidy!
How long did u had to wait after you sent your Cv?

To all:
How does an average monthly schedule look like? How many days off and how many nights abroad?
How many hours?
Over time after 70, 75?
How much do you guys save, assuming your live style is not from the jet set? Meals here and there, groceries, clothing, etc.
In this society do you feel welcomed? Do people support each other if needed?
The schools have enough space for new comers? Do EK give you a hand in case you dont find a school?
What is the feeling about terrorism in the UAE?
What is the difference between the villa offered by EK and the option of the subsidy to get housing your self? (if this the case)
And any other valuable info will be wellcomed.
Thanks

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

Laury

Giving you the benifit of the doubt, and assuming that what you say is fact, then you have done us a great favour.

I realise that you were only looking after your own best interests, but the language you spoke is the only one EK understands. The only problem is we cant speak it. So thanks, and I hope your small input has some positive effect for us, and best of luck to you in your career.

Cop U Later

The Rev

[ngpilot]

HELLO EVERYONE

I GOT THE INFORMATION FROM EK GUYS THAT I AM ON THE FAMOUS "HOLD POOL". IT IS GONNA MAKE 2 YEARS NOW!!
I AM ICAO ATP, 11.000+ TOTAL, 6.000+ ON 767 AND CURRENT ON 737NG, ABOUT 1.800.
WHAT KIND OF PILOT THEY WANT TO BE FLYING THERE? ASTRONAUTS!!!:confused:
IS THERE ANY PROBLEM WITH SOUTH AMERICAN PEOPLE OVER THERE?
SOMEONE PLEASE, MAKE IT CLEAR TO ME.

SAFE FLITES.:cool:

WOW,
AND I FORGOT TO SAY THAT MY APPLICATION WAS FOR F.O.!!!!!!:hmm:

[ngpilot]

My dear Fish,

I hope you are fine.
I had no intetion to be shouting when I put my statement on PPRUNE.
I will try not to make this mistake on my future replys.
Take care budy!:O

[millerscourt]

Rev Dr D Yes thank Laury by all means but also people like me and a few others who highlighted the arrogance of EK thinking that rated A340 Captains such as myself would drop everything and come rushing to EK begging for a job!!

When these jobs were first advertised I thought they were short term contract jobs filling in,and that the pay would be appropriate. As soon as I saw they were looking for permanent Captains and seeing what the Payscales were I lost total interest as did many others hence EK are now ending up with egg on their faces.

I hope you all in EK end up benefitting in some way from this futile exercise.

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

millers

I hear your point.

The way i see it is that Laury actually came here and did the interview, got the job, and told EK directly that the package was unacceptable. That has a lot more impact than someone telling the world, via an anonymous forum, that they think the EK package is beneath them. Chances are you may not have got selected anyway, then all your chest beating would be worthless.

The statement has far more impact when it is from someone who is turning down a job offer. That is why i chose to mention Laury in dispatches and not you.

Cop U Later

The Rev

[fatbus]

I don't think they have processed 27 yet,just started alittle over a week ago.
Good to see guys turning it down
Make it better for everyone
Correct me if I'm wrong but they start the DEC's at level 1 Capt @21000dirs/m
Of Info- O/T 400dirs/hour(capt) based on how many days in the month but @ 82. good mix of 1 day and 2-3 day trips(330) 340-500 is planned to do 5 day SYN/AKL. Bid system to change in Jan, right 5 group rotation will go to 7,this will help the DEC's as they will be at the bottem of there groups, as FO's are upgraded they will assume there spot based on DOH( only time DOH applies).
There is about 250 capt now will go to about 350 divide by 7 @50/ group, the DEC's would be in the bottem 10 in each group, that could effect you bidding.
Lifesytle in DXB is very good and safe, some find it costly and some find it about the same as where they come from. Most Capt are able to save the diff between FO and Capt, company puts in 12 % with your 5% on top of that.
Villa's are always the wild card,they get asigned and if you don't like it tuff ,take the 95K and move out on your own , most guys add about 3k/month to get somthing the family will like, that goes for buying or renting. If you buy you have to come up with 30% down/30% in 1 year/30% on closing (I think that's close).
more later

[fatbus]

sorry make that 1st year Capt 23900/m not 21ooo

[HARD 2 FIND A NICK]

Thx
Some clarification pls:
The 12% plus the 5 just will be available in 7 years time, so I want to concentrate on the monthly payment.
Saving is the diff between Cap and Fo = 24k -17k =7k. Is a fact that u spend 17k in the most basic needs of a daily life? Sounds expensive....
About flying just tell me how many nights abroad or at home per month. The bidding will come with time.
95K per year ? Every year or just one installmanet?
How much to buy a house? Can anyone buy or depends on nationality

What is DOH?

[fatbus]

DOH -- Date of hire

Most FO's need to spend what they make for the first 6 months, we spend @ 3000/m on food, 1000/m eating out, gas is cheap, car loan 3-4ooo/m,at least 2000/year per child for school,golf 2700/year or 425/m your wife can get the same deal.Thing like TV and sound systems and additional funriture eats up the cash at first.

The 12 % plus 5% starts from day one(Idon't think DEC's will be any different) you have to wait 7 years do take 100% of what the company puts in,before that is a lesser amount but can't think of it yet. 17K - 2k( fo 5%) = 15000-3000-3000-abit more and you are not saving much and like I said the first 6 months there is other things for the villa.


95K /year if you like to use for rent or buy.
To buy a villa ie: lakes 1.2 to 1.5mil you can go way higher
An apartment ie:greens @ 6-900000

To rent in the Lakes 4 bedroom aroud 120K + utilties

The new bidding system I am told will only allow 4 days off in a row, I spend at most 6 nights away ie: am dep to the EU 24ish off back the next evening 14-16hrs credit 80 hour month.
There is longer layovers but guys then to want those by choice.
This month one layover the rest long day turns 8-10hrs/day

[Mack Number]

I have been asked to attend an interview for a DEC position.

I just noticed the comment in "Laury's" post that the pay is "a lot less than a "normal" EK Captain's pay".

Is it not the same pay scale/benefits etc., except starting at the bottom rung? Could someone please clarify this for me.

[sandpit]

Mack Number, that is correct. First rung Captains salary.

In regard to the provident fund, I am pretty sure that if you left under 7 years you would get everything. However, the company is not under any obligation give it all to you. Their obligation would be to give you back your contributions (the 5% that was yours - although that might be worth little on past performance!) and the Governments legal end of service benefit which I am not sure of sorry. It is something like 2-3 weeks salary per year of service. This is of course less than the 12% they were paying on your behalf, but they cannot legally give you less than this.

[Mack Number]

sandpit-Thank you for clarifying that for me. I'm young enough to be there a lot more than 7 years. I guess it's the retired 55 yr. olds that have to worry about any 7 year cut off for the provident fund. No problem for me starting at the bottom rung of the Captain's payscale-it's what I expected.

AlfaMike-Yes, I am A340 rated.

[ngpilot]

Hello everyone

I was told that school for the kids should be a hard time to find in Dubai area. I have two, 14 and 11. I am afraid I would be not able to afford american neither british schools there. Any information on the E.I.S.? Does the education allowance cover it?

ThanX 'n' safe flites.

NG
:cool:

[Tajfa]

Schools...

The School allowance is basically tailored to E.I.S. Ie. they cover it. However, according to EK policy you are required to cover a minimum of 5% yourself. Just got our two kids into EIS. They are full in some classes. Availability exists in others. EK will help you to put "the pressure" on the school if they don't take your kids though. At EIS the EK kids "jump" the que even.

:cool: Tajfa

[Chokdee]

Hi,
as a co- pilot I can save around the 7000 Dhs/month mark. The money isn't a vast amount, slightly more than I made in the Uk. It would be very easy to try and live beyond one's means in Dubai, thus I always try to remember Champagne lifestyle, lemonade money,
Rgds

[HARD 2 FIND A NICK]

Chokdee
Chokdee
Hi you save 7K /m. How many are in your family?
Did you take the villa from EK or did you take the 95k housing allowance to look for your self regarding houses.
Are ALL the schools full?
What is beside American or British school?

All of you out there:
Any no type rated, no wide body experience captain called for interview?

Mach Number:
How long did it take to get the interview from the date you applied?

Fatbus:
Thanks for all the info. I sent you a private message but it seams you did not get it check it out. How many are in your family?
Again thanks for sharing the info with an outsider

Happy LNGS!

[Chokdee]

Hi,
co pilots get 85000 dhs towards their housing allowance if they opt out of the company offer. I chose to stay in the company accomodation which I am really pleased with. I have a young baby, so no school yet, but would expect to save less as the kids arrive !.
Rgds.

[fatbus]

I have two kids in the American School old enough for the company to pay the hole shot. The amount for the primary/elementry is where people come up shot,the amount is going up all the time and EK does have a say as to what the schools can charge. Most schools will say they have waiting lists but so far I know of no one how has not got there kids into school.

You pay for extra for after school things but it's not bad, my kids have done things they would have never done back home.
Other cost are school trips which there seems to be alot of cost varies.

Women(expat) are free to do just about anything you want, alot do work. My wife would rather play golf and tennis,go for coffee or head to beach, she really likes it here but it is not for everyone.

The housing market is controlled right now so it's really hard to say what the value of property will be 10-15 years down the road.Most guys are saying that if there place is only worth 1/2 they will break even because the amount the company gives you.If the housing allow goes up you would see more guys buying in order to use company money.For the time being there is no shortage of building and no shortage of land, don't think it's going to be like HongKong or SIN
EK does not own any villa complexes but do rent out large numbers ie;
92/140 or all the 84's or most of the 164's.
Some of the people that are buying is because they don't like where they are or don't like being around all EK pilots

The DEC's are a must if we want to operate the 18 340's next year. I think most FO's can deal with that as long as there upgrade is not effected, there has been a change with the fast track upgrades and there is where the problem is.It did not effect me and so far I beleive the Airbus Mang when they say all FO's will upgrade in 3 years.The more airplanes we operate the bigger the bonus.

[ngpilot]

Hello FatBus

I am still waiting for the call, but while comparing what you guys already on the game are stating and what the EK web promisses, I can see the company is doing a good job.

Would you know the quality and size of the villas offered to F.O.s among wife and 2 kids?
If I ellect to use the 85K allowance, what else, besides the rent, should I pay, i.e. water, electricity, condo taxes.

And how about the car loan? How it is discounted and what car the 55K can afford?

ThanX `n` safe flites

ngpilot:cool:

[330 Man]

FATBUS,
Please check your PM's

[HARD 2 FIND A NICK]

Hi FatBus:

What are the changes that took place on the fast track for upgrades from FO to CAPT?

[fatbus]

It was 6000 total with at least 1000 jet command.

Now 8000 total 2000 command on a jet over 55K IE; 737 and bigger

These are mins

[fullforward]

How in fact is going on DEC recruitment?
I know about a lot of very experienced wide body skippers (though not type rated to EK fleet) that received only the hold pool notice email....
Maybe there´s plenty of A340 rated on there, being interviewed at this time?

Cheers!

[happie]

well for those of us who wanna join ek n find that the salary is good ...better than present.....pay check ...
we cant even get an interview....

but many who have it better ...of course....
wont wanna take a hugh change and or lifestyle change for ...peas....? i guess....

so why many of "us " are not being called for an interview but still in the holding pattern....
well lets move on beyond nationalities and color or colour,language ,food and music or sexual preference...

[millerscourt]

fullforward Perhaps EK are having second thoughts about DEC's to non A320/330/340 rated Captains???

Certainly if non type rated then to transfer to an Airbus from a Boeing could be a big challenge joining EK where a large number of people do not want you there!! Even more so if you are not also experienced in EK's route structure.

[Warlock2000]

The latest "RUMOUR" doing the rounds is that the next policy change includes Augmented crews (yes, that's you 340 DEC's) only being awarded 75% credit hrs for trips flown (fly 100hrs get paid 75hrs), and that leave days will no longer have ANY associated monthly credit hrs. So expect to work those leave days BACK!

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

Surely not Warlock,

Didn't our esteemed DFO, SVP, TCK (I can't keep up with the changes) say that there was no truth to the rumour that augmented crew credit hours would be tampered with.

I just can't believe he would have lied, ("I took the liberty of bull****ting you"). Surely it must have been an honest error. I can't remember anything else that he has said that wasn't true.

Oh, hang on, there was the one about the DEC pay, and let me see, Oh yeah the one about how well off we are due to the excellent strength of the US dollar. I almost forgot the one about how the company is commited to managing crew fatigue.

I'm trying hard not to be a cynic, but I fear I am losing the battle.

Cop U Later

The Rev

[millerscourt]

Warlock Re DEC and A340 credit hours.

Gulf Air tried that on the A340 New York trips re Augmented crews amongst their many other underhand tricks.

50+ Captains duly walked away from GF as a consequence.

[max AB]

Rev How can you be a synic when the sun shines and DXB is such a fun place to be... (I have noticed some clouds lately)

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

Max,

I fear that you are losing the battle as well.....

Cop U Later

The Rev

[fullforward]

Dear Miller,

Definitely EK DECs will never be wellcome by the vast majority of
unsatisfied FOs, who may think that game rules had changed.
But this is not DEC's fault...

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

Fish

It's not about how many we will lose. I doubt anyone will throw their job away on principal, we are after all, all mercenaries.

The only thing we can hope for is that this overt display of how EK treats its people (changing employment terms unilaterally and with no notice) will give prospective applicants pause to think before they pack their tents and head for the desert.

If the numbers on the influx side slow down sufficiently, it will be dificult for our exaulted leaders to hide the fact that they have been treating the staff like cr*p for the last 15 years.

This may lead to an improvement in conditions for us, or then again, it may not.

Cop U Later

The Rev

[Pengintai]

NEVER FEAR TCK IS HERE!!! (Memories of Lost In Space)

Regards to the Most Reverend Doctor Doug, Max AB et al. With everything going on in EK at the moment (attempted manipulation of credit hours on the A340, Direct Entry Captains gaining instant 10 year seniority, and the much vaunted, ongoing management reshuffle) TCK announces the year 2001 Flight Ops. Party is confirmed for January 2004!

A surly retort to those who say that Ek Flight Ops Management is not in good hands!!

[millerscourt]

Fish As the Rev says EK are unlikely to lose any Pilots because of ( to an ousider) the amazing U Turns and changes of policy decided on the hoof it would seem by your Management.

I would think that serious applications to join EK as an F/O must be seriously down. Captains applying as F/O must have dried up entirely and also those who think they will get a quick command??

What is going on in EK is being done to us in SQ.

Just look at the T & C's on offer with SIA Cargo and the way the company has reduced our salary over the years. Here in SQ we need a Bonus of at least 4 months to put our salaries somewhere close to where it should be.

SQ and EK vie as supposedly ( in passengers eyes at least!!) the top International Airlines in the World. What a joke in so many ways.

At least in EK you do not have a Government attacking you on an almost daily basis.

[sluggums]

ahhh, now you're all making the same mistake in thinking that the airline gives a s**t about you. You're just a bum in a seat.
Nothing more nothing less.

EK management couldn't care less whether the flight/cabin crew are happy or not, all they want is for the a/c to go on time and full of pax.

Forget a pay rise, there are enough people waiting in the wings (no pun intended) who believe that this co. is the holy grail of airline jobs, BIG mistake.

...ahhh I feel better now, cold beer and valium do wonders out here.

[Zomp]

CX senior pilots= A scale
CX junior pilots= B scale

EK senior pilots= B scale
EK junior pilots= A scale

somehow TCK got the numbers wrong

[tck]

Listen Chaps,
When you sign up your for Emirates your contract does not include any guarantee that it will not be changed at a moments notice. You are under some kind of warped illusion that the contract is for your protection, its not. Your contract is only designed to protect the company should YOU be in breach of it. Then we can take punative action.
As you know this is a rapidly expanding airline were staff are expected to be flexible and do what they are told. Your continuous whinging about your conditions is beginning to vex me. How am I expected to make big bonuses for myself if I don't cut your conditions and increase your productivity, its really quite simple. I need to make as much money as possible before I get kicked out of Dubai.
So kindly shut up and do what you are told.
TCK

Oh and did I mention that the "sun is still shining" :O

[stormcloud]

tck,

Excellent, the voice of THE company man:D .

Could you share your thoughts on basings, accomodation and your next job?:ok:

[Dune]

Latest on DEC recruitment:

-Pilot Selection Manager resigns over directive from above to lower the EK standards (which are applied to every other Captain currently flying with EK) to recruit the numbers of DEC's dictated by management. My hat goes off to this individual for his integrity in dealing with this issue.

-gag order placed on the members of the recruitment department to not discuss the state of the current recruitment drive due to the number of failures of DEC candidates.

-the numbers and quality of F/O applications have rapildy dried up due to the realization on the street that:

a) any so called contract you sign with EK is not worth the paper it is printed on,

b) there are other airlines either now hiring or on the verge of doing so and many don't want to jump into getting locked into EK when there are going to be much better opportunities available in the next year or two, and

c) those doing the math can see that it is getting very close to the split where F/O's are going to be spending a lot more time in the right seat in the future (especially with DEC's jumping ahead of them) and many of them do not want to spend extended periods of time locked into the right seat on the very low pay rates (in either Euro or Pound terms). It's a game of musical chairs and the music is very close to stopping. Who will be left without chairs on the left hand side when it does?

I am amazed to see the degree/rate to which this airline has gone from having a generally content pilot group to it's current state. Very sad as I really wanted to spend many years at this company but have had a serious reality check. Dusting off the CV I thought I would never need again.

[Zomp]

Well spoken Dune, feel like you, I started to read flight international again.
I think I posted already six months ago that the fast upgrades will dry out, I didn't know then that TCK will hire DEC's, so if you join now as F/O be prepared to stay in the righthand seat for a while.

[Chokdee]

Time to have your say on the 21st Dec.

[Jim Morehead]

DUNE
what does it mean about the FAILURE OF DEC candidates? Does this mean on the sim check part? The initial training or what?

Also on the Personnel guy who resigned,why would somebody like that care? If management says to hire XXX, what would a PE guy care?

And on the specifics of "lowering" the standards, I thought I saw a few months ago that the standards were fairly high.

Any thoughts?

Is EK hiring more than it is losing?

[Cerberus]

Good post Dune!

Zomp,

Why not write to CK.....You might be surprised to find out that you have an ally as far as DECs are concerned. The pressure for DECs has been coming from non-(ex)operators.

For Captains, the company believes that lots of hours equals a good Captain and that paying more money means you get a better one! I think its all a crock of sh*t so I tried to think of an appropriate analogy.

1 When buying a new toilet you don't get a bigger toilet coz if you do you'll fall through the seat into the sh*t.
2 You don't get an older toilet because it might be crap and anyway you'll have to change it sooner and therefore end up in the sh*t earlier.
3 If you spend more money on the toilet, you might get a bit of gold plating but no-one can see that anyway when its covered in sh*t.

So what are the options??

The answer could be staring you in the face. Rather than spending god knows how much to find out if a toilet in a house in, say Hong Kong, works; why not check out your own bathrooms first.

All you really want is a toilet that works. You might even find one or two that haven't been in the house for 3 years, but if they do the job they'll keep you out of the sh*t!!

You know what; you can even get an ISO 2000 award that says 'We invest in people!' EK likes awards.

The problem is that rather than managing the situation we seem to have cookie cutter rules. When the cookie cutter doesn't work they throw it away and get a new one.

Hours can be almost worthless as a measure of experience or capability. Using another analogy; our managers would have to sit around until an older, less capable guy but who had lots of hours sitting in the mailroom popped his clogs. Only then would he be able to jump up the tree. He'd complain and say 'but I have 3 degrees from Harvard and one from Stanford in Engineering'. Management would counter by telling him that the mailroom guy has 14 from Bombay, 3 from Croydon and one from Outer Mongolia in Underwater Carpet Weaving.

For the money, but more importantly time spent, on the initial batch of DECs they could have reviewed the files of all the First Officers in the company to see if any of them are suitable upgrade candidates irrespective of any numerical constraints. They might get lucky and it would buy them time, stave off a few DECs, regain some credibility but above all prevent them having to push the sh*t uphill. They could still do it, and probably would, if they were concerned about the company's best interests rather than saving face.


The analogy meister, apologies to Universities in Bombay, Croydon and Outer Mongolia, just off to the loo....quick get a hostie into the cockpit to look after the F/O.

Cerberus:yuk:

[scanscanscan]

Regarding pilot management..... It is sad to read about the same mistakes being repeated at Emirates that were made in the 70s at Gulf Air.

[Yossarian]

Cerberus, well said sir. And with all due respect to the universities mentioned I think your analogies were brilliant. :D

[Dune]

Jim:

In response to your questions:

"what does it mean about the FAILURE OF DEC candidates? Does this mean on the sim check part? The initial training or what?"

Yes the failures are occurring during the recruitment process.

Emirates has over the years developed a very comprehensive 3 day evaluation process which looks at many facets of an individual (personality, CRM skills, flying ability, decision making, psychological makeup, etc). The process has been proven to work extremely well over time as there are very few who have made it through the system and not subsequently done well at EK.

For the DEC's, they decided to extend the recruitment process to 5 days. The first 3 days are the same process every F/O must go through but the extra days include a LOFT scenario with failures identical to those experienced by F/O's in EK who attend the command upgrade/evaluation process (and in the interest of fairness these scenarios are not done by the recruitment team; they are evaluated by the standards Captains within EK who have no interest/bias/agenda in this process). They are judged the same way every other Captain is judged within EK; the standard is there and they only have to meet it.

The incident in question involves a candidate who failed the process at the 3 day point (specifically the first sim ride; the same one all the F/O's do when they apply to join EK). In the minds of the pilot recruitment team, there was no point in proceeding to the next phase of the evaluation if the individual did not meet the standard required in the first sim ride (this seems like a very reasonable decision to me). This decision was overridden by the management and they insisted this candidate be given the remainder of the evaluation. This was done and the candidate again failed the LOFT. At this point management decided the process might be too arduous for most of the DEC's they have attracted thus far and decided the best way of getting the numbers they deem they require would be to lower the standards expected of DEC's in the selection process.

"Also on the Personnel guy who resigned,why would somebody like that care? If management says to hire XXX, what would a PE guy care?"

As mentioned by others, the individual is a pilot whose position was Pilot Selection Manager. He obviously disagreed with the higher management decisions to lower the bar only for the purpose of putting DEC bums in seats. As such, he has shown himself to be an individual of integrity and my hat goes off to him. Should I ever be given the opportunity to meet him in a bar on the road rest assured I will be buying the beer that night. So seldom do we see this level of integrity within EK; it is a refreshing change and I wish others would step up to the plate and do the same.

"And on the specifics of "lowering" the standards, I thought I saw a few months ago that the standards were fairly high."

As above, the standards set to enter EK are (or have been) quite high. The problem as I see it is that management have painted themselves into a corner by virtue of blindly saying yes to a/c acquisitions without planning on where they were going to get the pilots to fly them. In my opinion the management have gotten so used to pilots falling over themselves to get into this company that a certain level of arrogance has set in whereby they cannot understand why they are now scrambling for bums to fill seats.

Sorry Jim, you had one more question:

"Is EK hiring more than it is losing?"

Really a two sided question.

I do know there have been very few "quality" DEC candidates to present (no disrespect to those who have applied; it is just that the management of this company thought extremely experienced pilots would be falling over themselves to get into EK given our past history of a very content, willing and cooperative pilot workforce). They expected type rated pilots with 15-20 years command experience under they belt to come to EK for the money they were offering; every Captain at this company knew there was no way that was going to happen. What does that tell you about how informed our current management is when dealing with pilot pay and benefits packages??

Have many pilots haveleft yet? I believe the accurate answer is either none or very few (there is a rumour floating around but I will not go there). I suspect the reason is only because there is nothing better to go to (yet?). The worrying thing I feel is not so much that we are going to lose experienced people (because most of us have staked our professional futures on this airline given it's past and future prospects) but we will definately not take in the types of pilots with the experience we will require in future years given management's now well documented history of moving the goal posts in a whim and applying the "where the f##k else do you you think you will go" managment tactics when dealing with it's current workforce.

[Silver Tongued Cavalier]

The last few posts have been very well written, and have given me an idea to a potential solution to this interesting problem.


First the history behind this problem:

- Unexpected arrival of A340-300s caught EK Training/Recruitment Dept’s on the hop. Fair enough.

- Easy/quick/cheap option to recruit Contract Captains taken, rather than upgrade from within, which would have put excess strain on already stretched Training and Recruitment Dept’s. Fair enough. These aircraft are extra’s, so FO time to left seat should be unaffected.

- What started as a Contract position soon became a Permanent one. Inevitable really in the expansion climate wasn’t it!! Here the situation starts to snowball! Mistake No.1

- EK management seriously misjudged the experience/pay curve required to attract suitable DEC’s in the current market to move to Dubai. Mistake No. 2.

- By reducing the DEC command req. to A320 size aircraft and increasing the FO upgrade requirements (????) only served to antagonise current EK FO’s. Mistake No.3.

- Then to add salt in the wounds, increase the package to DEC’s over current EK Captains to try and increase applicants, but which only served to antagonise the current EK Captains! Mistake No. 4!

- And now I hear they want to reduce the Standards for DEC’s further! BIG Mistake No. 5! Well done to that Captain who resigned his post, shows lots of integrity and professionalism.

All this seems to stem from such massive expansion putting too great a pressure on an already stretched training/recruitment department. And with crews already working monthly hours on the high side, and around 1 aircraft per month arriving, the situation can only get worse. And this is without people leaving for pastures new, for example Etihad, or going back to Europe/Australia etc as the aviation industries get back on their feet. The planned changes to credit hours, or the fact that everyone has bluntly found out about the value of their contract will also not help retention!!!

SOLUTION.

Here is my solution to this problem, notwithstanding overall pay/conditions etc, this will only change when lots of Captains hand in their notice!!!

Firstly, all current EK captains should at least be paid the same as proposed for the DEC’s.

Secondly.
Quote : “For the money, but more importantly time spent, on the initial batch of DECs they could have reviewed the files of all the First Officers in the company to see if any of them are suitable upgrade candidates irrespective of any numerical constraints. They might get lucky and it would buy them time, stave off a few DECs, regain some credibility but above all prevent them having to push the sh*t uphill. They could still do it, and probably would, if they were concerned about the company's best interests rather than saving face.”

This will undoubtedly mean that a large increase in number of FO’s will be required, so increase resources to the recruitment/training department, quickly sift through the hold pool, drain it out, and start advertising for new FO’s.

Quote : “They have yet to realise that hours can be almost worthless as a measure of experience or capability”

Although I think they are learning fast with the DEC recruitment sessions!

At the moment they are looking for 4000 hrs, which seems too high, remember people joining next year would have to spend around 7+ years in the right seat, recruit people who will be happy to be in the right seat for years to come, resulting in a happy crew!!! Around 2000 Hrs with Jet time could be a ball park figure. Many Majors fly with Cadet F/O’s with around 200 Hrs including EK, so this recent increase to 4000 hrs for FO recruitment seems bizarre!


One of the biggest mistakes an employer can make is the failure to see the quality and capability of it’s current workforce under it’s nose, and to destroy morale and relations by bypassing them in career development and progression. It is a real shame to see EK go down this road.

The upturn in world aviation is on it's way and EK's expansion will stop in it's tracks unless EK quickly stop this rot!

[Zomp]

Silver Tongued Cavalier,
thanks for your solution but now its a loss of face thing, TCK doesn't care about solutions.
Why you think he got the sack from BA and BM?

[fullforward]

Dune,

Thanks for your balanced and unbiased comments. After all, this is this Forum made for.
One question: if EK is so eager to find suitable DECs how can be explained the fact that a lot of experienced (12,000 plus TT, in excess of 9,000 HR PIC airline time with more than 3,500 wide body) captains did not receive but the standard hold pool email?
I know 6 of these guys..ok, they are not EK fleet rated.
But this hardly could present a big deal, considering EK training facilities.:confused:

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

Silver Tongued Cavalier

Good Post with a lot of good points. I think that the history of the problem goes back further with a different cause, one which seems to have been forgotten with the passage of time.

A year or so ago, EK was heading into its most ambitious expansion phase to date, and TCK ushered this period in by comprehensively alienating all Training Captains, Line Check Captains and Recruitment staff by changing their pay structure for the worse.

I believe that this was when the rot set in. I may stand corrected on this, as I am not part of the airbus training department, but my information is that from that point on, applications for TC's dried up (evidenced by the airbus training manager phoning captains to try and talk them into joining training, not to mention the recent threat to Boeing captains). This in turn led to stress on the airbus training capability.

The first sign of this was when airbus upgrades went to short courses only (I assume that this was to minimise the amount of TC's needed). That was the period when airbus F/O's transferred to the Boeing fleet for an upgrade, but the same opportunity was not available to Boeing F/O's. The next sign came when they ran out of elligible accelerated command candidates and needed to take some of the new Boeing captains (who were previously airbus F/O's) and send them back to the airbus for a short course(mostly against their will).

Once those two sources ran dry the only alternative was to bring in DEC's.

So I do agree that the latest cause to the problem is the unplanned aquisition of extra aircraft, but the start of the problem goes back much further, and is further testimony to the beligerence and arrogance of our management.

The biggest obstacle to a solution, as you have said, is loss of face. There are now too many people with a finger in the pie, therefore they can all place the blame on someone else.

This really has turned into quite a mess.

You said "so increase resources to the recruitment/training department".

Great in principle, but lets look at paying the current guys what they are worth. At present these guys work in excess of 12 hour days, five days a week, sometimes up to three weeks a month. For this they get the standard 3.5 hours per day, plus the insultingly small 1.2%, (which works out at a bit over half an hour of overtime for a junior captain). On top of that of course they are now recruiting pilots who will get paid more than they do.

Until this company starts to realistically value the contributions of its staff, and reward them accordingly, there is no possibility of an improvement in conditions, or the constantly deteriorating level of good will shown by the workforce.


Cop U Later

The Rev

[Dune]

Fullforward,

Interesting question and I really do not have an answer other than my own thoughts.

As you mentioned, these individuals are not type rated. I would speculate that at this time the majority of DEC's they are screening would either be type rated A330/A340 or NG Airbus rated (ie A320) pilots as we need those bums in the seats pretty quick. A full transition course offered to a candidate takes 3 months (plus 25 sectors of line training on top of that adds an additional 1 1/2 months) and we just don't have that much time (not to mention the additional pressure placed upon the training department resources if they have to run full transition courses on the DEC's). An A330/340 or even A320 new hire can be run on the "short course" and be on the line much quicker than non type rated pilots.

[millerscourt]

Mick Jagger As a LHS and a Trainer I would be most interested in knowing where you think you could better yourself enough to make it worthwhile leaving EK??

As a B767/A340/B744 rated Captain I find myself virtually stuck where I am at SQ except perhaps a move to CAL.

Unless I can get a well paid contract short term position then I am captive where I am and you are too possibly which is why Airline Managements behave in the way they do.

Bar room complaints by Pilots have ever been thus, and rarely come to much.

White Knight You asked why I posted so often on this thread.

Well it was to draw out all these EK Pilots who are now coming out of the woodwork and who now show EK in its true light and perhaps those considering joining will now have second thoughts to the benefit of EK Pilots and maybe others elsewhere too.

Here in SQ we have had the type of Management style for years that now offends you all. Not that DEC's are a problem here as they have always been around ,but the gradual erosion of T & C's which should make anyone from the expensive First World countries think twice before moving to ANY Airline hiring ex-pats.

[tck]

Chaps,
How can you possibly point the finger at the training department when it is in the safe hands of (as one trainer refered to him recently) the antichrist of flight training. He has done an outstanding job of slashing costs with no regard to quality, however he has improved my end of year bonuses dramatically. OK so there may be the downside that nobody wants to work in the training deprtment and we do not have enough trainers to train up F/O's for command, but look on the bright side, taking DEC's and giving them minimal training solves all that and allows us to have a bigger bonus at the end of the year.:ok:
Be Happy, cos I am.

[druckmefunk]

You know what they say:

You pay peanuts, you get gibbons!!!!!!!!!

dmf

[scanscanscan]

tck... I do not blame you for enjoying your bonus and job while it lasts.
Training pilots saw all these antichrist safety decisions and then some occur at Gulf Air years ago.
The insurance companies when approached preffered not to listen to their predictions and warnings.
They said they "Costed risk on past track record".
GF insurance costs have gone up 300% after a crash and three hull losses.
Factor in other related costs and GF staff profit bonuses are light years away.
Today GF company servival must cause concern to the local banks that have lent them vast sums.
Today Gf shareholders have had to contribute further good money after bad.
Todays priority at GF is probably servival and not staff bonuses.
Sadly the old GF management was free to ignore any pilot safety inputs and thus let loose they virtually closed the flight safety department and ignored Omani DGCA inputs and any CRM courses.
Anythig offered that involved a cost was ignored.
With nobody "Guarding the Guards" they diligently worked towards and achieved the pilot predicted smoking hole and fizzing sea body count.
These mavericks were only bought to heel when they had totaly bought the airline into disrepute and had killed enough passengers and staff and destroyed enough airframes.
Only when the airline was on its knees and dead bodies everywhere was there a wholesale clearout of management.
IMHO..The management team member that first starts to downgrade trainers terms and conditions and later sticks his nose into lower checking standards and then flight safety and engineering standards is the first link towards a GF situation.
This type of manager will reduce Emirates eventually to what GF was in July 2000.
Sadly the management of Emirates, their insurance companies and their supervising CAA team appear to be allowing the same Anti Christ manager type free reign at Emirates.
It says volumes for their priorities and how little they have learned from the GF situation.

[Warlock2000]

You can only erode the EK salary and conditions package so far.

That point was 9/11 where rumblings of an outdated package in a high inflation environment was already cause for much concern.
When aviation times were tough (GWI, 9/11, SARS, GWII), the troops were asked to play as a team and help the airline forward in these times of need.

Being the professionals we are, we did and still do!
95 hours a month, but for how long?

[fullforward]

Thanks, dear Dune,

It makes sense, considering such an emergency situation.

Season's Greetings!

[Crazycanuk]

With you all the way Mick.

Crazy

[etops777]

Mick Jager
CAL or EVA does not pay a whole lot more than EK! When you are on the road you are paid USD 2 per hour for the time away from base. There is no educational allowance nor provident funds and the housing allowance is between USD 1000 to 1500 depending on the contract you've signed.

Job security is worse than you have at EK. People here thinking that CAL or EVA have better terms and conditions than EK need to think twice!!!! PM me if you all need more.


cheers

[Jim Morehead]

thank you to the last few posters who took the time to clarify what is happening there.

Hours are some measure of ability,but just piling up hours doesn't mean much.

I also find it interesting worldwide in some places that not being current appear to be a "big deal". Every airline is going to make you go through THEIR training program. While I have not flown a 777 or 767 in a few years, it would not take long to requalify. There is a great commonality between Boeings.

But I am not looking for a job. It appears to me that the job propects are better a year later than last year when I was looking.

I went back and saw the posting by ETOPS777.

Unless I put the wrong information in my handheld pocket calculator, EK paid way less than CAL. Of course, one has to take apples and apples. Most recently, many of the CAL guys are exceeding 70 hours which is the only guarantee. And sometimes CAL does cancel a flight and you lose the pay to the minimum 70 hours.

I have looked at the EK website a few times after the DEC Captain program started. I only calculated about $7000/month for a 777 Captain. Maybe that is the base number for the minimum hours,but if that is correct and that is the pay, it is substantially less than CAL is paying.

Now I agree that CAL does not pay for educational funds to educate children. So if you have kids and that is important, you either don't apply, pay it yourself, or commute as most of the people do.

I think that some airlines out there did or do pay more than the CAL housing allowance. But again it just depends what standard you want and whether you have a house of kids or any expensive demanding wife.

I am waiting to be convinced.

[millerscourt]

Latest EK Salary for DEC's dated 16th Dec states "Attractive tax free salaries will be discussed at interview"

Looks to me as if one can now negotiate at interview as to what it would take to get one to join???

[highcirrus]

SQ captain who's interviewed with EK tells me that the start point for DEC's is sixth year salary increment.

[millerscourt]

The way things are going in SQ I think afterall I had better dust off my A340 Manuals!

Perhaps a 5 day break in Dubai would be therapeutic as the climate is nice at this time of year.

[Dorman]

Hi.I am one of the prospective DEC guys trying to get a job with EK.I have an imminent interview.Has anyone got a bunch of sample questions (and answers!!) from the technical exam presented at the interview?

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

Dorman

By all means come to Dubai and try and get a job, I wish you luck. But if you think you are going to get some assistance from the guys here, then I would say you have misinterpreted the situation.

Cop U Later

The Rev

[Backwater]

Amen to that Reverend!

[thegypsy]

Reverend What a terrible way to talk as a man of the cloth.!

Not a very charitable reply from a cleric especially at this time of Christmas :ok:

[brownoser]

Been in DXB less than 10 years and this is the lowest I have felt. My plans to work at EK for the next 20+ years have been drastically changed.

I know it will eat away at me over the coming years (as it will to others too) so it can only go downhill from now.

If nothing is done on the 21st by the pilot's attending via a strong turnout, mission statement and show of hands then we are absolutely screwed!! This is our Alamo!!!

Finally, be clear in what we say but don't turn the 21st into a shouting match or they (management) will shut us out for good.

:*

[thegypsy]

brownoser If you EK Pilots don't behave yourselves and do as you are told and accept everthing that is thrown at you by your management then we in Singapore will despatch the Senile Minister to deal with you "big Ego Pilots":ouch:

[RolandPullthrough]

No point dispatching a ploitician to Dubai to ban something that is already illegal. Best warm up the KY gel. I feel it coming on again. :hmm:

[Can't think of a name]

Brownoser, your last point is all important; the guys at the meeting MUST keep their cool and put their points forward in a logical & non-emotive manner. Let's hope management does the same.

The other major point is that of "numbers". I hope that every EK pilot in Dubai on 21st will make the effort to attend the meeting. To not do so is saying "bring on the ky!"

EK is in crisis, and this is obviously the opportunity management has to demonstrate how they intend to go on from here, and into the forseeable future. If they choose to do so with a loyal, motivated and safe flight ops department, then we should see some major positive changes come out of this meeting. On the other hand, if they choose to go blindly ahead into this massive expansion without addressing these crisis issues then I have only two words.......Gulf Air. And I pray I'm wrong!

To EK management......PLEASE stand by the people who have helped build your airline to where it is today; you wouldn't be enjoying your present success without them.

Fingers crossed!

[blueside^]

amen to that!

[411A]

EK in crisis?
The only 'crisis' at EK is the egos of the F/O's who, having been naive enough to believe, that direct entry Captains were not in the cards in the first place.

It had to happen...and it did.
All this prior talk about 'we must maintain our standards' and 'only we know how to operate in the Gulf'...what a bunch of nonsense.

Yes, it would indeed seem that the 'junior' guys need direction, and it will come from DEC's, courtesy of management who have finally come to the conclusion that these 'senior' guys are really needed.

[White Knight]

Funny isn't it 411 how many of these "experienced" guys who are applying are dropping out at the sim evaluation, for various reasons such as ignoring GPWS in IMC below MSA etc etc....

Besides it's not just a bunch of pissed off F/O's - who as you don't seem to understand are all very experienced pilots before joining EK. It's also all of the 6 year and below captains and trainers who will get paid less than DEC's. I suggest you keep your opinions where they aren't wanted - ie back in 'lil old arizona:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[fatbus]

411a is in his own little world (USA) and has no idea about the depth of the FO body at EK

[411A]

"...depth of the FO body at EK...".

Deep alright, in deep doggie do-do.

And of course DE Captains are going to be paid more, has always been thus in the Middle East.

Been there, done that.
Pity those that joined before never knew the score. Like I mentioned, naive.:ooh:

[Dropp the Pilot]

Mark that post above well lads:

Should you ever become a pompous, asinine, bitter and twisted individual, motivated solely by schadenfreude, having reached that 'certain age' and have no real accomplishments other than a crop of piles and logbooks, you too might make a splenetic and pissy little post like that.

What you probably wouldn't do, unless addled to an extravagant degree, is to publish that same juvenalia a thousand times over.

Avert your eyes, crippled individual passing.

[fullforward]

C´mon guys!
Easy on 411...after all we´re on Holydays time...

The hardest you beat him, the more he certainly LOL. How can you be so naive? His provocative (but more realistic than generally supposed) posts has the main purpose of make fun from all that political correctness...playing the role of kind of a Devil´s advocate.
And, let´s face the facts: the ball now is on management´s hands. For sad and unfair it could mean to all of us.

[411A]

Spot on fullforward...devils advocate.
Now of course the EK management could have avoided all this unpleasantness by doing their hiring just slightly differently, for example, the way SV did during the very early eighties, when 747's were added to the fleet.
At that time SV was operating 16 TriStars, and when the 747's arrived, all of the TriStar Captains/First Officers/Flight Engineers were move up accordingly, which left a rather large void on the TriStar fleet.
Their solution was to hire direct entry Captains and First Officers (as well as Flight Engineers) and train these folks on the Lockheed equipment.
This has the advantage of...
Having the aircraft operated their way,
Allowed those already there to move up to senior equipment,
And, filled the seats with previously qualified pilots who had a proven record of accomplishment.
An added advantage (from my perspective) was that SV did not allow any military experience into the equation (except for Professional Flight Engineers).
Captains hired directly onto the TriStar.
First Officers hired, with no promises whatsoever of being upgraded to Command (altho a few were, ten years later after moving to the RHS of the 747 later on, after the TriStar).

No hard feelings...no unkept promises, and rather large tax-free paychecks for all.

EK could have done the same, but apparently choose not to do so. Now EK management(?) is in the untenable position of having to deal with guys who have been lied to....never a satisfactory arrangement.

[797]

ek managment in the moment is like a pilot who is not ahead of his own aircraft because someone else (the goverment) is pushing the trottle forward.
the chairmen had in the past years, because of the aviation situation, plenty of opportunitys to shop and buy cheap a/c all over the place.
unfortunately our top guys were afraid to speak up and stopp that process for a while in order to catch up with recruiting and tranining.
i believe, even if we would have, according to managment, enough "suitable" f/o´s available for upgrade, even then the company would be unable to cope with the present situation.
there is just not enough time to crew our aircrafts.
on top all this restrictions they put on their own upgradings.
why do we need 3 years in the rh seat?
that started the whole misery in the beginning. 2 years would be more than reasonable to get to know the airline and their ways of doing things.
it is just a fixing that is going on, a reacting to the undoubtly impressive expansion. it is not an acting we would need.
on top the way they play the so called crm to us.
it is very sad to see that some of our managers have absolutely no proper way of communicating with us.
taking the whole situation, they could have told us they whole deal upfront before we read it on websites or get it from forums.
it still would have had quite an impact on us, but i am sure a different one.
it sadens me to experience this relationsship with the company and i as well thought that that would be the last company i would work for.

so in the monent our 777 f/o´s are stuck because the next 777 come in 2005. no crosstraining upgrading allowed.
would it help if 777 captains volunteer on the airbus now?
it could reduce the number of DEC or even open up DEC on the 777. i don´t know.
any thoughts?

[Scudrunner]

Guys

I know this is slightly off thread but I have been invited for an interview (F/O not DEC) at the end of January and not being a young whipper snapper any more what is (by general consensus) a realistic time to the left hand seat?

Also, judging by the emails that I have received from the recruitment department asking how much notice I need to give in days(!), I would say that they may be a bit desperate. Are things really that bad? Is it worth going?

Cheers for now.

[fullforward]

Hi Scud!

Congrats and good luck on the interview.
Well, considering the thousands of previous posts, one can assume that nobody is sure about nothing on EK, except the fact this is a fast growing airline.
Do your search and you will assume 4-5 years is a good and realistic bet.

Happy 2004!

[loungelizard]

Scud,

Think long and bloody hard regarding what your about to do. !!
Just be patient, the industry is turning around again thank goodness after all this time and more "appropriate" life style choices will be available.

[Zomp]

Scud,
when you join EK will hire about 100 DEC and you will have about 500 F/O's in front of you? make it min 7 but more realistic 8+ years.
if you would have joined 2 years ago it would have been a different story.
Good luck

[ekslave]

If you are out of work, you have nothing to loose.
Never give up a good job for greener pastures, it dosent exist!!

[sluggums]

I have just joined EK having come from a reasonable charter job in northern europe, I would think very carefully about coming out here as the grass definately isn't greener on the other side.

You do get to see some interesting places aroung the world, but as with most airlines the management don't give a toss about you, and Dubai is a very expensive place to live in, and pay rises are non existent.

The place is full of people from the sub continent who basically hate you, and to say that there are some vain western expats around here would be a huge understatement, do not expect to feel welcom when you arrive.

However the weather is nice, good food, interesting places to visit and a few other things, BUT choose carefully.

.....i'll have a lie down now.:cool:

[Scudrunner]

Thanks for the insight guys. Lots to think about.

Scud

[mini cooper]

Scudrunner, don't even comtemplate Emirates. Its possibly the worst thing I have ever done and now find it very hard to go anywhere else. I came from LHS job in the UK, was promised the world like many of my friends and then had the rules changed. You can't negotiate with management it is a 'take it or leave' attitude and crisis management as well.
The best thing you can do is stay where you are, no matter how bad it seems it is better than EK.

:mad:

[wagtail23]

Nicely put mini cooper...

Scud, only come here if your current outfit is going down the toilet and there is no, zero, nada for you else to choose.

Worst choice I ever got conned into...:mad:

[Backwater]

Scud. Are EK paying for your Dubai ticket to attend interview? I believe DECs are being sponsered to come here for interview. The rest of us had to pay to get here. Silly us...
:ouch:

[Donkey Duke]

Backwater,

Do you enjoy the A330? Where are your favorite layovers? Do guys like the A330 better than the 777? Much appreciated.

[Backwater]

DD. Three questions? I'll do my best...
1. Yes
2. Easier to ask where are my LEAST favourite layovers! Everybody seems to be avoiding Accra - no one wants to contract malaria for some unknown reason :rolleyes: . Casablanca, despite the romance is not popular amongst the expats...
Large and expanding route network. It's not hard to bid for and get your preferred destinations, within reason.
3. 777 vs Airbus? Been done to death already. 777 guys like the 777, Airbus guys like the airbus. There are exceptions to prove this rule!

Now I have a question for you. Why, given the subject of this thread, are you interested in Emirates?

Compliments of the season.
UAE

[Backwater]

Applying the same logic, those applicants who are successful will of course forfeit their right to complain when said management duly turn around and screw them at some future date!:ooh:
Most of the anger around here is not directed at fellow operators...

[Donkey Duke]

Backwater,

I fly for a US Major and have always been an airline afficianado. I have seen your airplanes at Gatwick, and have always wondered about the lifestyle in Dubai etc... Mainly airline curiosity. Thank you for the reply and I will probably ask more questions eventually.

[320]

Wow, what an eye opener this has been after a month or so absence off Pprune.

I'm currently at Air Canada (320 FO) with an interview date early in the new year. Sounds like I should hang tough and wait for AC to come out of CCAA before deciding to move the family to Dubai (assuming a successful interview :ok: ) based on the general feeling i.e. DECs etc.

Any more insight appreciated!

Cheers.

[Saltaire]

320,

I would say in this relative world, most do not realize how bad things are at AC. I would most definitely be packing my bags for the Sand, especially as an FO on the 320.

Wouldn't even blink

Good luck:cool:

[iland]

Hello Gentleman,

I have received a DEC hold pool email back in October. I have not as yet received an interview offer. I am reading with interest of course, all of the comments on this thread.

I have always assumed that these types of airlines hiring ex-pat crews would basi-cally do what they want, or need to do. This is why I applied for a DEC position back in July of 2003, prior to the announcement for DEC positions. When I went back a few months later and filled in the flight times fully, I received the hold pool email.

I am 330 rated and current, also 3000 pic 320, along with various other narrowbody airliner PIC time, along with some FO time.

Are DECs looked down upon for taking the job? It is not a pilot’s fault that the situa-tion has evolved the way it has here. People simply want to rise to an opportunity.

[phat boy]

Laura,

how do you feel about allegedly "knocking back the DEC offer" at EK due to conditions? “did not realise the conditions were a lot less than a normal Capt at EK”? The pay is actually more (check the website, if it's still written there). Up to, what is it, about 27000 Dhm/m or so??

Still stand by your decision?

[millerscourt]

phat boy Re Laury and DEC EK. I think you will find that Laury is an A320 Capt who applied to EK thinking he would only be considered as an F/O but found he was up for a DEC Position. If I am wrong then I am sure he will correct me.

Maybe as an A320 Capt he did not feel confident enough to go through with joining EK with all the attendant risks of a new Aircraft and new Routes?? Especially with a perhaps unhelpful bunch of F/O's and maybe resentful Training Captains to deal with as well!?

[Dune]

To all potential DEC's & other Ek outsiders watching this thread with interest:

It should come as no surprise for any who have frequented this forum over the past few months that the pilot morale/job satisfaction within EK has plummeted to an all time low in such a dramatic fashion. Therefore, do not be surprised or upset by the comments from some within the company when pertaining to the DEC's.

When you double the workload of the training department and then in the same stroke cut their training salaries in half (there goes the support of the Training department); when you demoralize the F/O's by virtue of changing their terms and conditions to gain command and then almost in the same breath parachute DEC's ahead of of an extremely talented and experienced group of F/O's because they now do not have "the experience" (on an established seniority list; both expat and local; many with thousand of hours of command time; there goes the support of the F/O's!), and then you piss off the line Captains by being offering a starting salary for DEC's 10-23% above the starting salary currently paid to the Captains who joined this company in the "not so rosy" times and helped to build this company to where it currently is (there goes the support of the line Captain's) and it should be clear to you why the attitudes present are justified. If there was a ever a way to totally mismanage the pilot workforce I have yet to see a management having done so with such speed and efficiency.

To those who are planning to benefit from the offer presented (or who have accepted), I offer no disrespect. However, I would think it very naive of anyone currently applying to think they will get any help with the recruitment process from those currently within the company (in any capacity, as I have already alluded to) nor any support from those within the company if/when you arrive.

Best of luck to all that apply and good luck to those who have accepted; I really hope you did you homework because you are in for an education. I just hope to hell you didn't leave a good job to come to this outfit because in due course you are going to be just one more of the growing numbers who are shaking their heads at the mistake they made.:ugh: :ugh:

[Muttley Crew]

very well said dune. important to add unlikely to see outright hostility from the incumbents toward DECs despite the depth of ill feeling. Militancy not tolerated and professionalism still abounds amongst pilots.

aspirants do yourselves a favour and read dune's last paragraph again.

Not a laughing matter but..... hehh hehh hehh... anyway.

[millerscourt]

Dune You say you have not seen an Airline management act with " speed and efficiency" to upset their Pilots. I have, because here in SIA the management have been behaving in this manner for years,although DEC's are not a problem here but in everything else EK mirrors SQ exactly.

Until Pilots stop applying in droves to these companies then expect more of the same!

[Dune]

Millerscourt:

Can't comment upon SIA but judging your comments it sounds like SQ and EK management are in a competition to see who can mismanage their pilot workforce the worst! At this stage I give the lead to the EK bunch. It will be really interesting to see a few years down the road once the world's aviation outlook has improved and worldwide hiring has begun to see how many stick around these outfits. I suspect more than a few will leave for greener pastures (literally as well as figuratively).

As you said, until pilots stop coming to these companies the practice will continue, as there is no impetus for the management to change. As such, I think it is important to get the message out to the community on this website so at least those who are blinded by the shiny airplanes and empty promises will know exactly what they are getting themselves into. Foretold is forewarned.

[fullforward]

All this is sad and unfair, period.
But we must keep in mind that it is dictated, like a lot of things today, by the MARKET FORCES!
One day, experienced pilots will be a rare asset again and will be threated with the due respect, otherwise they will flock to greener pastures...
It is naive to try to convince professionals under present poor packages (or none at all!) not to apply to an unfriendly outfit.

[loungelizard]

Pure bloody poetry Dune

[Dune]

Just call it like I see it L.L.

Should the promised "review" yield any substance I will be the first to beat the drums for the EK band but until then I sure as hell ain't married to this outfit and I call a spade a spade.

[sluggums]

No doubt about it, once the pilot market picks up people will leave companies like EK in their droves, and the co. management, bless them will look at each other with puzzled looks and wonder why it is happening.

[phat boy]

Millerscourt,
yeah I know he said all that but I wanted to see if he had anything more to say.

The thing is, he also said on the 13th of Nov (page 1 and 2 of this thread) he had an interview coming up. Then on the 24th, he said he’d been offered the job “last Friday”. I presume he meant the 21st.

A quick look at the calendar and you see this leaves only a single 5 day period for the 5 day DEC interview process and means they would need to have offered him the job either on the Wed practically as he left the sim or on the Friday (local equivalent of a Sunday, and none of the team work Thursdays or Fridays -ie the weekends). He says it was the Friday.

I think someone’s telling little Porky Pie lies around here. In fact I think someone's not even a pilot. Sad to have to mention it, at all, but I hate the idea of some flog spinning BS on a topic that is obviously important to a lot of people.

Read the other comments on those two posts and the smell of BS is even stronger

[millerscourt]

Surely any DEC will have the Salary agreed in writing in the offer of Employment from EK and therefore forms part of the contract???

If indeed EK are renaging on the agreed Salary then they are learning fast from SQ cos that is exactly what SQ have done!! Thay have also discontinued the 10% Provident Fund without any consultation and won't even payout the money until one leaves in order to ensure no Pilot's disappear in the Night!!!

The managements of EK and SQ are vying with each other to see who can be the most contemptable. Looks pretty even at present.

[sluggums]

Apparently 2 DEC courses have been canx in Jan/Feb due to not enough people & drop outs from the course.

Rumor is that accel command req are going to be brought back down to original levels...surprise, surprise they can't get enough people for the left hand seat!!!!!!!!!!!!

[millerscourt]

sluggums Can EK even get enough recruits to sit in the RHS?


New joiners are going to have to wait a very long time for Commands if one can believe that EK is packed full of experienced high hour F/O's as certain contributors say it is.

With EK going real long haul with two F/O's and just one Captain then Command prospects look bleak for new joiners.

Perhaps EK will have to lower the hours requirements in order to get F/O's to join who are prepared to sit for many years in the RHS??

[fatbus]

syd and jfk, the real long stuff 2 crews. new comers will be longer than 3 years as that is just the min right now. i don't think the mins are going to change but the higher time fo's are not appling so they will have to be happy getting guys with just the mins and for those an upgrade in @ 5 years is not that bad, the big thing is the fo payscale for those 5 years

[sluggums]

millerscourt, possibly, but with much lower nos. applying for RHS. Dubai is an expensive place to live and the FO's pay is meagre...in my humble opinion.

[desert_knight]

Sluggums, Just when is this much touted Pilot shortage going to happen? I have heard the term for at least 20 years and it never happens.

I can't see pilots (or anyone else for that matter) leaving EK "in droves", it is an exciting and dynamic place to be and you can't say that for much of the rest of the aviation world.

Sure, you might get more cash in China or Vietnam.....but try persuading your wife or kids that that is the place you ought to be!

[laury]

Phat Boy

In reference to your comments re my situation, as usual you are a smart a...se.
But to answer your question:
In the interview I asked what my salary was compared to line captains in EK. I was told that mine was alot less. Maybe they were testing my response.
I asked because all I actually wanted was to be on the same salary as others. There is nothing worse than having different pay scales for pilots who do the same job. I have experienced A and B scales before and it sucks (although a reality). You are forever watching what you say in reference to your package as the person next to you may not be on the same conditions.
So I hope that answers your as usual pig headed post.

[ernestkgann]

Mr Knight,
It's great that you have the 'glass is half full' outlook in regard to the company.
Personally I'd be more than happy to spend a few years in either China or Vietnam, or commute from somewhere to work there. Both places are rich in history and culture and I'm sure are exciting and dynamic but exciting and dynamic don't pay the school fees.
I'll have to go with the better lifestyle through more dirhams in the bank team. I guess that makes me a drover.

[Rosbif]

I don't understand what is going on at EK. I wanted to apply as FO, but since I only have A310 type (and 1500 on type), but not the 2000 Hrs over 20 tons, or whatever the new requirement is, I didn't apply. I have nearly 6000 Hrs and all the other experience.
I now see a posting for A310 typed people. Do the new higher minimums apply?
Why are they turning experienced people away with the silly new FO requirements. As it stands, if you have lots of experience, you don't want to wait years for a command,so won't apply, and if you don't have any experience, they don't want you anyway. Who is going to captain their aircraft 5 years from now?
I am confused, and I don't know whether I am now eligible to apply anyway.
I will be in Dubai for an interview (obviously not with Emirates), next week.
If someone could PM me prior to meeting in Dubai, I would appreciate it . It would be good to have an insider's perspective.
Thanks, Rosbif

[Can't think of a name]

Rosbif,

Nobody here is certain about what's going on either. EK's recruitment is in turmoil. The team involved are working their asses off to meet company requirements (my hat off to them!!), and those requirements are in a state of flux...... to say the least. My suggestion to you would be ....apply anyway. At least you are then commencing an application history with the company, so when your expereience does meet the requirements (whatever they might be!?) they can see your interest goes back awhile. Also, if they change the requirements you're already on file. Just a thought.....

Best of luck!:ok:

[phat boy]

laury, I can't help being a smart-ares, sorry. :{ :{

But your date(s) still smells bad. ;) That timing sounds very dodgy. Did they offer you the job the day you finished the interview???

And as for pay, why would they tell anyone the pay is LESS than existing line capts when in fact it was (at the time) higher?

Unconvinced :rolleyes:

[ITCZ]

Just to butt in...

Emirates (from a distance) always seemed to be a place where a fella could earn a lot of tax free money in a short period of time. Prime reason for anyone being an expat.

But the 16,700 dirhams posted on the careers website translates to Aussie$5,900 /month, or about AU$70k.

That does not seem like much when a plain vanilla 146 FO like my good self earned over AU$80k last year with allowances. Sure, the top part of my income was taxed at 48%, but my after tax was AU$4,800 on average.

Maybe my quick sums are missing a few factors, but the advertised 16,700 dirhams does not look like a gold mine.......

Would love to be proven wrong!:O

[ferris]

ITCZ.
It's now not a goldmine, sure. But remember, a short time ago that 16.7k dhs was about 9k AUD per month. It fluctuates.
Also, out of your $4800 you have to pay for your accom (either rent or mortgage), school fees for kids, private health insurance etc. It's not a simple translation.

Certainly not as attractive to be earning USD ATM:{

[david mangold]

for those of you at ek, i would like your opinions. i am former tw captain, now at aa. i am thinking about jumping ship for direct entrycaptain job. i am high time and international experience on the 767, 51 years old, wife and 4 year old. daughter. i was in top 10% at tw but now 53 percintile at aa (nice integration :-( ) , with restrictions on where i can go and what i can do. in otherwords, my last 9 years (at $160 to 200 k/yr) willnot be alot of fun (reserve some, domestic,etc.)

please give me honest feelings. is it too big an adventure considering the "relative stability" ihave in the usa?

thanks...dave

[fullforward]

Dave, are you SERIOUS?

[druckmefunk]

Dave

Your last 9 years on 85k, flying to every sh*t hole in the subcontinent and Africa will be a whole lot less fun.

dmf

[menard]

Dave,
I think you would make a big mistake.... 9 years to go.... Go for the cash.... You have been in this business long enough to know that the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence....Is it? Realy?

P.S. If you realy want to go there, I am sure a lot of EK guys would be interested on swapping jobs....:rolleyes:

[Zomp]

DAAAAAAVE, SWAP WITH MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Bo Jingly]

And MEEEEEE......

[411A]

Dave,
As you can see from the above replies, the bloom has gone off the rose at EK...and many other expat jobs as well.
These 'golden' years are in the past, and not likely to return anytime soon.

Told the guys here nearly three years ago that DE commands would be offered at EK, and was laughed at then...now the truth has come to pass and many co-pilots at EK are on the outside of a command, looking in.

Stay where you are, and enjoy retirement in a few years.

For the EK guys...told you so.:E

[sluggums]

Gee 411A I wish I was as clever as you, because if I was I would be a very rich man with better things to do than post smartarsed comments on a pilots forum.

Nip down to the life shop and buy one.

[menard]

Atiuta,

Dont take things for granted....3 years to upgrade.....this is under review!!!!!:sad:

[411A]

Not surprised at all that EK management is looking at revising their upgrade policy, they have probably discovered that it is generally cheaper to direct hire commanders rather than upgrade co-pilots.
Considerable training costs can be saved by doing so, especially if the guys they hire are already experienced on type.

Direct hire Captains are a proven commodity, unlike co-pilots who may...or might not be successful with an upgrade.

[7x7]

Well, 411a, it seems quite obvious to me that EK needs your visionary talents quite badly, and right now. Given your doubtlessly unique talents, I'm sure they'll be quick to overlook your date of birth if, as I suspect it is, prior to 1947, along with your psychological profile, which, I also suspect, might not fit exactly into the normal EK pilot candidate profile.

I look forward to hearing your reports here on Pprune on the plethora of ‘sub-standard’ FOs that EK currently employs. (Almost as much as I would look forward to hearing the reports the FOs would have on you.)

Tell me, if you will… how does – in fact did – a mere mortal like myself in the World According to 411a ever get to be a… (pauses to stand to stiffly to attention and solemnly salute, note the reverent use of the capital and please imagine a tone of awestruck wonder as I say this magic word) …Captain… if all FOs coming up for command are as incompetent as you seem to believe they are?

[Backwater]

Atiuta,

The upgrade policy has been reviewed? That little snippet hasn't passed my in-tray yet. Kindly elucidate.
Rgds
UAE

[BusyB]

411A,

"Direct hire Captains are a proven commodity,"

Not necessarily true, in fact from some operators it might prove the opposite to your meaning.

[411A]

Generally a reasonable statement BusyB, the said Captains need to be selected carefully.
In two companies where I spent a rather long time, watched DE Captains hired (expereinced on type), given a short differences course, foreshortened line training, and assigned to a regular line of flying in thirty days from commencement of employment.
Considerable fewer training Captain hours required in this exercise, rather than upgrade from within.
Having said this, a few of the 'bypassed' First Officers had a rather large chip on their shoulder about this, and would tend to complain bitterly to management about this process, and were promptly told by the fleet manager/chief pilot to button their lip least their upgrade be further delayed.
Suspect that EK management has made up their collective minds about DE Captains, and the guys there will have no other choice but to accept...or quit.

Of course, EK will have to pay competitive salaries now that world-wide aviation is starting a slow upturn. If they don't, they might find the DE Captain in-box rather less that half full.

[Bo Jingly]

411a. That's the best post I've read of yours yet.

I've heard that DEC's have got here expecting (and were told) they would receive a 'larger package' and, on arrival, have been told they start where everyone else does.

Interesting, but still a rumour......

[Jim Morehead]

The last few responses have been good ones,but I fail to see the big deal in the DEC issue. If an airline can't get the supply that they need and they can't promote from within because people aren't ready( in management's view), they don't want to be promoted, or they have issues where they can't do training experiments on line flights and have incidents and accidents; then they have to hire from the outside. Most people from the outside have the T-shirt and they may or may not do better than promoting someone from within. But a proven track record speaks for itself. It's that simple. Most airlines today can't take adverse publicity nor the $$ cost of having incidents or accidents. This is true worldwide.

If you have a seniority system and a system where people get trained when your number comes up, it works reasonably well. But when you try to upgrade and fail, the downward spiral and the consequences are not pleasant.

[Austin Holed]

Please define a "Proven track record" I have 12000 hours but having spent the last decade working for my ever shrinking national carrier I never got a command on a jet (that mythical and oh so hard to fly beast) Yet I have operated on long haul wide body ops all over the globe. I haven't been at Emirates long, but I have been there a darn sight longer than any DEC.

Is this a proven track record? My last company didn't sack me, I didn't crash any aeroplanes & I manged to get through the EK selection procedure (unlike many DEC applicants)

You see I am confused, once you become a captain are you so much better? Is it a case of once a captain then always a captain?

Whilst the management make their decisions whether we like it or not, it does gall me somewhat to listen to tripe from colleagues basically disparaging every EK F/O

As for 411A, are you familiar with the word "Tosser"in the USA, I suggest you obtain a British published dictionary.

[skyslave]

411 I am one of those "Stupid" Captains who is willing to give up his command and go to Emirates as an FO. The reasons behind people's decisions vary. I am flying for one of the UKs charter companies on the bus and I want a more stable roster, a better quality of life. I am confident enough that when the time comes I will get the Command with Emirates. Airmanship, decision making, character is a requirement for both pilot seats, and not just the left seat. It is not a title bestowed by the aviation gods to a few chosen ones. Captaincy is about humility, service, compasion and experience. The guys I saw at the Emirates interview fit these criteria, so the next step is Company needs. I am not management, and I cannot speak elloquently about the needs or reasons behind Emirates decision for DECs but sometimes it might not be as evident as we think. I am taking a decision to go to Emirates, it is not a risk, it is not a move out of necessity, it is by choice. The seats upfront are a for those of us who are privileged enough to be doing this job. It is for some of us a job, for others an occupation, for others a profession, and for some it is a passion. I can understand if you are trying to pass on wisdom, or even experience, but it does not fit the profile of a true aviator to be arrogant, spitefull and rude towards those who are flying in the right seat. I believe that someone with your experience should have the wisdom and understanding to be honest, yet encouraging, careful yet with hope.
Skyslave

[Jim Morehead]

I am not sure if the second previous response was directed to me,but I'll answer <bfg>.

I DON'T know how other airlines determine who is and who is not ready for upgrade. The first 34 years of my aviation career were in a union/seniority system. I was so lucky to be able to have my first opportunity after 21 years to upgrade <bfg> and I took it and even other chance to move up with all of the Boeings. That was the right choice for me each time in restrospect.

In a non-union-non-seniority based system, someone in management and the training center makes the decision. Time and hours have some bearing, but certainly not all that goes into the decision.

Exactly what EK does is outside of my area of knowledge and responsibility. Tht is why pprune is here for those in the know to tell us.

I personally would not take a job on a "maybe" and a whim unless I had some idea of the future and had in writing what my future would entail. Time has a way of taking its toll. That's why each of us has to make our own choices and one is not necessarily good for everybody.

[ferris]

Just watching this with interest.
Can someone answer this; does rostering take into account the Capt and FO match? Is, say, a 500hr-cadet-FO paired with a particular Capt, or are there designated Capts to take these 'new' FOs ('training Capts')? Just wondering if that has anything to do with raising the upgrade requirements?

[menard]

Skyslave,

You have a decision to make, go to EK as an F/O, maybe upgrade in 3 years time, then get your captain first year salary.

OR stay in your current airline as a captain, until you get the capt. hours for a DEC (presuming you dont have the hours right now). And then go to EK as a DEC, and make the equivalent of a 5th year capt... (Less the seniority, for what it's worth)....

Its your decision....:ugh:

[max AB]

Sky Slave, welcome aboard...Ferris, there are restrictions with crew pairings but they are not so limiting as to influence the upgrade requirements.

[skyslave]

Max AB thank you.
Menard you are correct, I do not have the requirements for DEC, but rather than waiting two years to get the requirements I can go now that the opportunity came up. I am sure that there will be opportunities within Emirates to upgrade in the future. Some will say that it is not wise, I say maybe yes, maybe not, I surely joined to be a pilot not just for the money, but for the fun. In the long term the difference of a few thousand pounds is a few holidays, or a few toys.

[menard]

Skyslave,

Having a life and a good time is important, always keep it this way....If you are moving in DXB for those reasons, you will get what you are looking for. Be patient with everything....:cool:

[411A]

If those who are Commanders now, and are intending to join EK as First Officers, clearly do not meet the specs for a DE Captain position.
So, they will have to wait for the upgrade, if it comes.
Have noticed a few at other companies, who joined with the same ideas, watch as DE guys were hired, and paid accordingly, while our intrepid hero sat in the right seat...gear up and shut up.

Up to them of course, but suspect they will post here in about a years time that all is not rosey in the desert...indeed just as many have on this forum.
Some are very naive when it comes to overseas employment, especially when the company changes direction, sometimes with little notice.

[Dropp the Pilot]

2630 posts and they all say exactly the same thing!

For God's sake man, either reach down deep within and dredge up a modicum of some self-respect or give your poor, bruised nose a break. How else are you typing whilst sporting a strait-jacket?

Do you not realize people are trying to have a conversation here?
It's like being at a dinner party where a baby at the end of the table keeps bringing up pureed peas. Distracting at best, emetic at worst.

Do you have no one who can take you in hand?

[777Goose]

This could get even more interesting.
(How do I change the font size real small as to whisper) Hot this week is we're trying to find 10 more aircraft. We're running at nearly 100% capacity so somebody is doing something right and our jobs look as secure as any other in the industry.

[Backwater]

Laughed at that one. But like it or not 411A does represent another opinion that based on the evidence available just may be supported by EK management. Makes you think doesn't it?

Hope nobody drowned in the downpour today!
UAE
:bored:

[max AB]

Some are very naive when it comes to overseas employment, especially when the company changes direction, sometimes with little notice Gee 411, and this hasn't happened at home in the good old U.S of A?

Guys can sit and wonder "what if" till the cows come home or make a decision on the facts as they stand right now. Nothing is certain when you join any company, all you know for sure are the conditions on the day you sign up. If you accept this then you should be prepared for any changes, not still sitting at home waiting to see if prophet 411 is right or wrong.

[411A]

Right you are, maxAB.
If one should want to be an EK Captain, the concerned individual should join as one.
A really simple scenario to understand.:E

[4HolerPoler]

411A is a old friend, cum windup merchant, who's windup on this thread has really high-jacked it. I've given him a few days in the cooler before we unleash him on you again.

4HP

[Jim Morehead]

To take a little of heat off ol' 411, can those of you in the region put a PRIMER on about why EK and the surroundings appear to be doing so well with the economic environment? I've spent most of my time in Europe, Asia, and North America, so I am asking for anyone to take a shot at why aviation and the economy seems to be doing so well around the UAE.

Now I realize them hills have oil. Does this industry spread and make the economy very strong down to people who want to take vacations or is most of your travel high yield business trips to places east and west? There's no Opera house, Eiffel Tower, ggod pubs, Golden Gate Bridge, Grand Canyon,so I don't think that is why most people wouldn't jump on a plane to fly there especially from certain regions of the world.

The weather stays way too hot in summer and is reasonable most of the year. At least no snow to shovel.

Does any one have any population figures?

What does one do for a few days in Abu Dhabi?

Open to your ideas and even 411 can reply!!!!!

[White Knight]

JM - always plenty to do in Dubai, probably in Abu Dhabi as well.

Skyslave, there certainly will be lots of upgrades in the future, both long and short term. If you're after lifestyle then you'll love it here, that's the reason I came to EK. Also you get to fly new (mostly) aeroplanes, the route structure is very varied and about to become more so.
I'm personally having a great time, although I do have to say that a few things within EK could do with changing, but as we keep hearing "it's under review":p :p

[Jim Morehead]

At many airlines things are"under review". It would be better sometimes if they would have a "drop dead" date and if it doesn't happen by this day...it won't happen. Days go pretty fast sometimes with no changes. Sorta like waiting at the other end of looking for a job!!!! They often go reaaaalllly slow!

On Abu Dhabi, I've only been there once and was alone. It was 45C and I know that was not the norm. But I've spent time in a shopping center and looked around town in what appears to be safe. I suppose I'll walk towards downtown on the next trip. I heard there was an old town and obviously I can see the "new town" from a few miles. I like to walk and look for something to do. But is it safe if you don't wear the local "garb". I don't own a Mercedes, I don't have a camel, I don't smoke cigarettes,I don't have a local cell phone, I know no one, and wouldn't know where to walk into a pub IF there was one.

There are rental car agencies and I heard that a drive is certainly possible from AUH to DXB,but what would one do when they got there? Are there any good web sites with suggestions.

The average world citizen (yanks or not) think that area of the world is like driving a Bradley tank across miles of sand with the potential of being shot, blown up, and tortured. Every day you see blasts across CNN and the BBC about Iraq. I realize AUH and DXB are not Iraq. But I am just trying to open up some dialogue so that I don't have to sit and watch TV over and over. You can only do so many revisions!!! And you can only eat breakfast once or less.

[ferris]

It's arguably better to live in AUH, because if you get bored, you can always go to DXB!
Jim, you are safer here than anywhere I can think of in the world. Crime is so low it is almost non-existent. This is evidenced by the rows of Mercs lined up in front of the shops during summer, with the keys in and engine running (to keep the aircon going). Where else could you do that? I can only recall seeing a fight in a pub once. I have only heard of someone being burgled once, and they were in Oman. Single females can walk thru the centre of town at any hour. Get the picture?
Before we go too far off topic (and I go thru all the negatives), maybe you should start a separate thread.

ps things to do (quickly). Centrally located to lots of interesting places, so travel. water sports, outdoor sports (half the year), indoor sports (other half), desert driving/camping, diving, clubs/hobbies (motor sports, Rc, ultralights, yachts, kite surfing etc). Just about anything, if you look. Ski fields of Lebanon, Romania etc not far away. Like anything, it's up to you. You can sit around and do nothing (plenty do), or do as many things as you want. There is even a small ice-hockey league.

[Desert Nomad]

JM,

Thought about a sarcastic reply and thought better of it. AUH is not a bad place, more "local" than DXB but still not so bad. You will be safe anywhere you walk at any time of night wearing whatever you want. There are plenty of bars down there and most are OK from what I've heard. DXB would be the better place to go to though. AUH has great sailing and lots of very nice islands off it which the expats go to for camping and BBQ etc.

Back on topic again and I may be very ignorant in what I am about to say but it wouldn't be the 1st time and wont be the last:

It appears the DEC are coming in to fill the extra aircraft brought in on short notice. It would have been great had training been up to speed but wasn't. This seems to be the crux of the problem. Hopefull ythis will resolve itself and when the rest of the orders start to come in the number of DEC ill slow and those moving right to left will increase. I hope it works out for you all, it's a great country to be in and all in all I find EK not such a bad place to be.

Desert Nomad

[phat boy]

diving, clubs/hobbies (motor sports, Rc, ultralights, yachts, kite surfing etc Someone once said something along the lines of..."if it flies, floats or fcuks... rent it" ??? ;)

Hope you've got lots of dough !! :ok: :ok:

[411A]

Jim Morehead,

Personally was flying thru (and based in) the Arabian Gulf long before most of the guys at EK could even find it on the map.
Always prefered DXB (over AUH) as there always seemed more to do.
A good friend of mine had a rather big boat (60' loa) and was always accomodating. 'Tis the best way, knowing someone with a boat...and far cheaper.
Prices (in general) are certainly much higher now than just a few short years ago.

If you go to work there, get everything in writing, as many will lie, lie, and lie again unless it's in black and white.
Wishful thinking just does not work in that part of the world, and never has.

[oldhasbeen]

51yrs old with a 4 yr old daughter!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What ever you do now Dave,enjoy it...cause you are gonna have a hell of a retirement looking out for the teenage daughter and it's bloody hard holding the shotgun straight with dimentia:E

[Backwater]

Ferris, just to add to your post, another reason crime seems so low here is it isn't reported unless it is solved. Unlike the west there is no free flow of information from the police and justice system to the media. If someone is assaulted downtown in the small hours, unless you know that person or it is instantly solved with the perpetrators in court (unlikely) you won't hear or read of it. Yes it is safer here than most western cities but I am under few illusions as to the actual versus reported crime rate. Burglaries are not uncommon either.
JM, if you hire a car and drive to Dubai watch your rearview mirror. The driving here can be exciting and the biggest threat probably comes from the kid coming up behind you at the speed of heat in daddy's Merc.
Rgds
UAE

[JABAL]

The reason EK has started to recruit DEC is not only due to the mass expansion BUT the Yanks have told them so. They are unhappy with the inexperience F/O getting in the left and operting to the East Coast in Winter,Infact,CAA has been notified of an average of 20+ go/arounds a month been logged in the Tech Log in the last six month!!

[fatbus]

huh? you must be good

[dooner]

"the yanks have told them so!?"

That's a good one, I wonder if the "yanks" realize that the majority of the DEC Airbus guys coming in, as well as new upgrades, will only be flying the A330 for the first year. There are a few acceptions of course but not many, before Company policy (yeah I know that will more than likely change as well) will have them doing the A340 course.

Besides the A345's are currently manned by the senior Airbus skippers (for the most part), you know the ones who have been on 'buses for quite some time.

[helen-damnation]

JABAL

Where did you hear that!

Perhaps if the company looked within and saw some of the experience already available, things might move on.

There are F/Os with East and West coast widebody experience!

Are you ready?
I was born ready!:ok:

[JABAL]

helen and gang!! please don't shoot the Meesenger. The europeans and co are keeping a close eye on EK operation.it's only the few who managed to get through the safety net that EK has tailored will be under "SCRUTINY". ;)

[max AB]

Gerbil, its fine to shoot the messanger if he is the originator. National Authorities keep an eye on all operators into their countries (or they should). 20 go rounds a month...for what reason, are you suggesting that a go round is an example of an unsafe practise...I think the reverse is true.

it's only the few who managed to get through the safety net that EK has tailored will be under "SCRUTINY".

So the "Europeans and co" are keeping tabs on individual pilots are they? more crap.

Obviously too much fertiliser in that fertile home of yours

[JABAL]

max AB, I whole heartedly agree with you, Its safer to G/A and return, Rather continue and end up at the end of the golf course as Qantas 744 experienced couple years ago in Bangkok ;) BUT with a Company as Reputable as EK, 20+ G/A a month is a bit questionable, Considering the interview selection is very exclusive!!!!!!!! :cool:

[sluggums]

'scuse me Gerbil but on what statistical model do you base the GA rate on? ....the sun baked one?:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

[david mangold]

want to say thanks to all wh responded to my queries. i'm the twa/aa guy who thought about coming to EK. i liked the humor, also! your answers/coments made up my mind that my lot is not as bad as i perceive it. i will not come, so that one more f/o can upgrade to capt. i wish all of you ther the best...dave

[fullforward]

How much a new joiner DEC would save montly (no 5 star restaurants, designer's clothes etc...) with two kids on good school, wife and normal expenditures?

[bus canuck]

FF,

I'm just finishing my first year. With 1 kid, we haven't saved a dime. In fact, we've come close to dipping into our savings a few times. I'm told that that is typical for the first year. I would hope to have a modest savings program next year. Probably no more than 400-500 USD per month.

Having said that, we do balance living and savings. It'd be tough to live here if you didn't open up the purse strings and live a little.

Bottom line is that EK is not a get-rich-quick type of ex-pat job. Over the long haul, I think it will work out, but short term...

[7550]

I agree with Bus, this is not a get rich quick type of airline job. You will have to work at it long term. I have been with the company almost ten years, six of which as a Captain and probably only really started saving anything significant (2 500 USD p/m) from about 3 or 4 years ago. I know of people who have managed to save more but with a big sacrifice in lifestyle which I dont think is the way it should be done! You can't live on Schwarmas and its nice to get the kids new bicycle's and give the wife a reasonable allowance. Dubai is an expensive place to live and we have watched it get more expensive virtually by the month. Doesn't make sense though as I would have thought it would be cheaper to bring in household items, meat etc with the drastically increased demand over recent years compared to the early days. I think there is a lot of greedy business going on out there.
New FO's with families will certainly not be able to put much if anything aside and bottom notch Capt's will also have to play things carefully if they want to save anything substantial.
Anyway, no one ever said it would be easy in the desert!
We are still having fun and lifes too short to worry about money so try and stick a bit away for the future without sacrificing too much lifestyle and keep buying that lottery ticket - you never know?

[Cerberus]

Fish,

The argument works for sad UK types but not people from warmer climbs. Throwing aside the job completely.... The 'Big Picture' is that there are roads outside of Dubai and the motherland.

You seem to have a high opinion of the Sheik Zahed or Emirates Roads, not sure of your criteria. Taking view, safety and the opportunity to live in a garden spot away from smogsville. I'd take the Pacific Coast High just north of San Diego or south of San Francisco. The entire East Coast of the good ole USA particularly through the Great Smoky Mountains and most roads in Oz or NZ.

These options get rid of the grey and dreary, get rid of a lot of the traffic, get rid of the high cost of living and introduce things like seasons, leaves falling, grass turning brown in the winter and back to green during the spring. A short sharp winter and a long hot summer without going above 35°C....Now that is the 'Big Picture'


Cerberus:=

[max AB]

Please don't tell me people come here for the weather!!!

[millerscourt]

Fish Perhaps you are a Fish out of Water??



When I worked out of Gatwick I never had to go anywhere near the M25 and the times I usually reported for duty were rarely in the rush hour. The trouble with a lot of Pilots in the UK is that they never seem to want to live anywhere near their workplace which makes the job even more horrendous than it already is.

Still in EK that is not a problem as you have to live where they put you or take the Rental Allowance.

Still it is the Lifestyle you are there for as you tell us.

Max AB I believe some do go for the weather.!! :confused: :confused:

[fullforward]

Dear Bus Canuck, 7550 and Fish, thank you guys!

Now, speaking about retirement, how much would figure taking after, say, 7 years with EK?

Are you all Capt with EK?

[bus canuck]

Sorry FF, I missed the "DEC" part of your financial question. I am on the F/O side of the ledger. It's a sore point. I have been flying professionally for over 20 years, the last 15 before EK as Captain on transport aircraft. When EK changed the rules, I was disadvantaged. The vast majority of F/O's here are fully qualified for Captain by any international standard. It's EK's folly to bypass them.

However, it's certainly not your fault and I don't hold any grudges to good guys who come under the "new" rules.

Back, then, to your financial question. I would suggest that a 7 year Captain with 2 kids can have a good lifestyle and save money. I would guess that $3000-$4000 USD per month could be saved. It sounds like a lot, but I don't think it's enough to lead to freedom 55.


On another topic, did someone really suggest that a move to California would be good because of the driving?!?!? Surly this is a joke, right? (Honestly, the way the post is written I can't tell. Apologies if this is written by someone who has English as a second or third language...) I like California and have spent lots of time there. Yet entire movies have been made about the driving problems. That's not to mention the fact that every second car has a loaded pistol in it!

Regardless, I have to back up Fish. The lifestyle here is great (not perfect) and it's rather petty for someone from away to trash it.

[Bo Jingly]

Canuck, what are you talking about. At least if you've got a gun in the car you can do something about some arse that accelerates up to your rear view mirror, then threatens your family by driving by in the emergency lane. :( "Pop a cap in his mother F'rkin arse!" :)

I agree that the lifestyle is good Fish, but there are people out there who would have the lifestyle in their home countries if there were jobs around. The fact is, there aren't, and we're all stuck here. I think we all need to realise that the Company doesn't really care about 'you, the individual', who came here to further your career.

As for 'money isn't everything': well, what it does give you is a CHOICE. I think most expats are here to make cash and go, and to do that, people came here with a plan. If costs rise and the salary stays the same, then things take a lot longer to happen. Fish, I think you'd be the first to admit that if you had the cash, you'd be gone tomorrow.

Again, it's a shame that people aren't made to feel valued. We are VERY poor at doing that. And do you know what, it wouldn't cost a thing to change it :(

[Three Wire]

Again, it's a shame that people aren't made to feel valued. We are VERY poor at doing that. And do you know what, it wouldn't cost a thing to change it.

Anyway, I am not only going to agree with your last paragraph, I am going to wholeheartedly endorse it. Even the management themselves are the first to admit that, yet your right, it wouldn't cost a thing to change.

I agree and endorse wholeheartedly the first quote. However, I don't know of any managers that admit it, or even think to practise it.

And yet, it doesn't take a whole lot effort to do.
:confused:

:cool:

[fullforward]

Bus,


I am with you regarding rules being bent in the midst of the game. It is too unfortunate that it happens at least once to almost all of us at a point on a career.
I wish you all on this process get the proper place at the LHS as you certainlly deserve it.

Back to my question: how much you figure one can pack after a 7 or so years Capt with EK?

Good flights!

[bus canuck]

Hey FF,

You're going to have to do the math. The Provident Fund pays 17% of your salary. Who knows what ROR you can expect. Plan 5%? Your monthly savings depends on how you spend you money. Further to what I wrote above, if you saved an average of $2000-$3000/month over the 7 years, you'd be doing well.

Like we all keep saying, EK is not a make the money and run kind of airline. When I did my own math, it was a minimum 12 year stint to make it worth the move...

BC

[millerscourt]

laury

How come under Far East Forum "Dragonair" you tells us all you only have 1850 hours yet you claim to have been offered a DEC with EK which you turned down??:confused: :confused: :confused:

Correction Fragrant Harbour

[wingandprayer]

I have just filled in the application form but on the jet experience page there is no mention of my type (f100). This would give the impression that i have less relevant experience.
However the ERJ135/145 and CRJ are mentioned.

This is of concern as I have 3000 hrs on type. Any one give me an email address or contact number to try and resolve this.

Thanks in advance

[Cap 56]

The inevitable will happen one day. EK will come to cruise speed and the right seats will be filled with moaning F/O that had previous captain experience.

The only thing that will be left for them is the privilege to live in Dubai. Mild winters and awfully hot summers during which the whole place runs empty. Those with children will find themselves with a huge problem of what to do with them in the summer. Wives get bored and jealous of their husbands exploring the world after a couple of years.

I have said it before; those that will join EK for the money only will be disappointed in the long run. Those that join EK with a family must be very careful about the consequences that will have. A very artificial life with extremely long duty times in the future.

However most captains are there to have a good time and enjoy the lifestyle and do not want to get too involved in any form of training or discussions on operational matters during normal operations. It’s simply too precarious for them to get too involved and possibly expose they do not always agree.

To become an EK captain you have to understand more than just your aircraft and the operations. EK really is a political system, it’s who you know and not what you know that has become far too important. On top of that there is a remarkable amount of gossip and rumors going around.

Great place for the bachelor DEC.

[Muttley Crew]

read a bit further back millerscourt. sounds like laury might be telling stories and/or stirring up sh!t. (http://www.barbneal.com/wav/uncat/mutlylaf.wav) :E

some people have nothing better to do than wind up others... ;) :ok: