Should I learn on Tigers?

[P38 Peter]

Hello all pilots out there.

I would like to put this question to you, because I have had a couple of different opinions and would like to get a general feeling. therefore I would appreciate your reply.

For many years I have been waiting to be in the right financial situation to begin studying for my PPL. Now the time has come and in the next few months I intend to begin my lessons.

I have always loved classic aviation, and have just had a splendid weekend flying with "Classic Wings" at Duxford. I'd highly recommend them!!!!!!!! This was my first experience at the controls of the Tigermoth and it was really fantastic. :ok:

As I live in Cambridgeshire I am in the position where I would be able to learn from scratch on the DH82a or on the more usual Cessna 152. It is not my intention to try and get my PPL as quickly as possible, more to take time learning and enjoy it as I go along.

So the question is, in my position what would you do:confused:

[Miserlou]

Strange you ask a question to which you already know the answer. Yes, go ahead and learn on the Tiger!

If money and time had not been an issue I'd have learned on a taildragger. As it was I went from gliding to Robin's and then, when the club moved away, finished my training on Cessnas. It was many years later that I actually paid to fly a Cessna or Piper aircraft again.

My point of view is that the skills you will learn from the Tiger Moth are the essentials (although the purist in me says you should go solo in a glider first!) and will be well learned.

I don't know any of the instructors at Cambridge but would be interested to know their statistics re. hours to completion of course for the Tiger versus Cessna students. There is no reason why it should take any longer.

Go on, you know you want to!

[FNG]

(1) Yes (2) Yes and (3) Yes.

The only conceivable downside is that you will miss some flying days because of winds that are acceptable for spamcans but no good for Tiger Moths, but PPL training in the UK invariably involves lots of hanging around and cancelled sorties and, as you have said, you are not in a hurry. As you probably know, if you learn on the DH 82, you have to do the IMC familiarisation bit of the course in a PA 28 anyway, so you will get to see what you are (not) missing.

If you send a private message to Tiger_Moth he might recount to you his adventures in achieving a PPL from scratch on the Cambridge Tiger Moths.

Have fun.

[Dop]

Go for it! (Though given the time of year I suspect you may need to visit your local Damart shop first!!!)

I'd love to have a go in one of those things. Maybe once I get my PPL I should look into doing a taildragger conversion in one?

[FlyingForFun]

Why not have a trial lesson on the C152 so that you can compare them for yourself?

But I suspect that, if you did, that, you'd decide to follow the advice of all the other posters so far and opt for the Tiger Moth! I only have 1.5 hours on Tigers, but that's long enough to know that they're not in the same league as the Cessna when it comes to pure enjoyment.

Good luck!

FFF
----------------

[shortstripper]

I can't recommend learning on Tigermoths enough!

Having first learnt to fly gliders, I went on to do all my pre and early post solo power training at Cambridge in their Tigermoths. I found flying anything from there on a breeze ... much easy to go from taildragger to nose dragger than the other way around! go for it!

IM

[foxmoth]

There are some problems learning on the dH82a, as has been said already, the wind can be limiting at times, also comms between front and back can be hard work, not sure how good the Cambridge ones are. Having said that I think you will come out of it a better pilot for the experience - though that will of course also depend on the quality of instruction. Enjoy:ok:

[dublinpilot]

I have never flown a tail dragger, so can't really comment on that side.

However one advantage of learning on a cessna or piper is that if you go to hire a plane while on holidays, you will be much more likely to be able to hire something that you will be very fimiliar with. Therefore your checkout time will be shorter, and you'll feel more comfortable flying it.

I don't know if that's relevant to you, but something to think about. Especially if your flying budget is limited.

dp

[robin]

For what it's worth - I'd go for the PPL asap and get it out of the way quickly -

It's much more fun learning once you have the ticket - and it opens up a bigger world with less pressure

I made a mistake in learning on an odd type - when it went tech or when the weather went out of limits, the spam cans were still flying - but I wasn't.

If money is not object (lucky thing...) why not intersperse the PPL instruction with the more interesting types.

[Herod]

I've never flow a Tiger (shame), but with several thousand hours experience on various types (currently 737), the most fun aeroplane of all was the Chipmunk, a classic taildragger. Go for the Tiger, although also consider the advice to perhaps do the PPL first on the Spamcan, and THEN go for the Tiger. Either way, don't not do it. Good luck.

[MLS-12D]

Both the Tiger Moth and the Cessna 150/152 have trained literally tens of thousands of ab initio pilots, so you can't go too far wrong with either type.

One advantage of learning on a cessna or piper is that if you go to hire a plane while on holidays, you will be much more likely to be able to hire something that you will be very fimiliar with. Therefore your checkout time will be shorter, and you'll feel more comfortable flying it.This is true enough, but personally, I would not worry much about this. If you can fly a DH82, you will find it an extremely process to convert to nosewheel airplanes like Cessnas or Pipers: probably an hour of circuits, no more. The reverse is not true, as it will take the average nosewheel pilot 5-10 hours to learn to safely taxi and fly a tailwheel airplane.

Why not intersperse the PPL instruction with the more interesting types?This is not a terrible suggestion, but for most people it is not a very good one. I think that most students would have a difficult enough time coming to terms with learning how to fly one airplane type, without jumping back and forth.

The purist in me says you should go solo in a glider first! Amen to that.

[FNG]

Givben that the aim is to acquire generic pilot skills rather than to learn to fly a particular type, I would go for the Tiger Moth. I'm not saying that the Tiger Moth is necessarily the ideal ab initio trainer compared to, say, a Chipmunk or a Cub, but think that it may be closer to the ideal than the more commonly available tourer/trainers. Adding to what MLS said, and without knocking Cessna pilots, a well trained Tiger Moth PPL would probably be able to check out on a rental Cessna more quickly than a well trained Cessna PPL could check out on a Tiger Moth.

[Tiger_ Moth]

It does seem like you have already made up your mind, and I agree, go for it and do it on Tiger Moths. There are only two downsides:
1) They can't handle as strong winds as more boring types.
2) Booking is not as easy as with most places. You'd want to basically book at least 6 weeks in advance to be sure to get slots.

Because of these two reasons and the fact that it is harder to land them than spamcans the license will take longer to get, but as you said, it doesn't matter so go for it.
To me it seems ludicrous that somebody who loves old planes might contemplate wasting their time on some crappy cessna when they could just as easily do it on a Tiger Moth, and to top it all off you even live in Cambridge! I mean it just doesn't require any thought! Go for it!

It took me about 51 hours (in 2 years) to get my license, although the average is somewhat higher. You may get p**sed off doing circuits for ages but it's worth it in the end. Imagine doing your first solo and your first solo landaway in a Tiger. It's as good as you think!

The instructors there are absolutely top notch (the ones i've flown with anyway, 2 main + about 4 others) and this is because they don't actually get paid, apart from expenses, they're there because they like teaching and flying on Tigers. There are no hour building types there. If you need some ground work explained or whatever, you can just get an instructor to help you with it, there's no hourly charge or anything for groundschool.
You will also get to learn lots about the planes themselves and how to swing propellers and everything.

One thing I would say is to not start yet. If you book say once per week through December, January, February then you'd be lucky to fly 2 or 3 times and this will just p**s you off. I'd say start booking up in April when the weather gets nice again. If you want you can just come along and have a look round.

By the way FNG, I didn't have to do an IMC on a Piper, I just did it on the Tiger so I have no spamcan stains on my log book!

[MLS-12D]

Good advice from Tiger_Moth about not starting until April of next year. Realistically, you would be lucky to fly once a month during December - March, and you won't learn much at that slow pace. You're better off saving your money and flying more intensively next Spring.

[P38 Peter]

Hi again all,

Thanks for the advice. I can see what you are saying about the C152 type of learning, whilst flying with Classic Wings i did find it sometimes hard to hear the instructor etc. However it seems that the general concensus is in agreeance.

Thanks again.

Peter

[MLS-12D]

Remember also that there is no shortage of free opinions in aviation; generally speaking, you're best oft ignoring these and doing whatever you think is best for you.

In this particular example, many number of people would say "it's a no brainer; fly the Tiger Moth while you have the chance!", while others would say "why would you want to learn on a quirky old wreck like that when you could be learning faster and more comfortably in a modern 'plane?". Neither side has a monopoly on the truth.

MLS-12D:D

P.S. If you get a chance, read the chapter in Richard Bach's A Gift of Wings where he talks about the difference between flyers and aviators (or some such distinction, I can't remember exactly: anyway, it's about people who fly modern, well-instrumented touring airplanes vs. those who engage in soaring, aerobatics, etc.).

[Airbedane]

Personally, I'd go for learning in the Cessnas. You are joining a world made up mainly from modern aircraft with modern systems and modern Air Trafic Control. Getting a PPL is hard work, but the grounding you'll get in a good Cessna club will see you right. The Tiger would be good fun, but it's limited to grass strips on airfields that can cope with an unbraked, tailskid equipped machine, and there's not many of those about. You'll also find the PPL a lot easier in the Cessna as the aircraft requires less stick-and-rudder skill to fly it, so you'll have more time and brain power available to think. When you have your PPL, go for differences training and then convert to the Tiger.
Good Luck,
A

[Southern Cross]

I gained my PPL on a PA38 - to my mind better than a 152, but...
if I could do it all again, I would have learned on a Cub or better still, a classic biplane. Sure, a Moth doesn't have brakes and has a tailskid. Those are limited factors, but on the plus side, you will learn what your feet are for. When I finished my PPL (and for a long time afterwards - and some would stay still...) I thought my feet were for resting on those curious pedals connected to the rudder, which seemed to be sod all use except for steering on the ground...(OK, a little exaggeration, but lets face it, a PA38 does not really require due attention to rudder in order to fly most of the time).

You can always learn, in a surprisingly short time, how to fly a Cessna or Piper or the like. The reverse is not so true...

My recommendation then is to learn on a Cub or Supercub - all the benefits of tailwheel training but with brakes, a tailwheel, cheaper (probably - i don;t actually know) and higher crosswind capability etc. If you could really choose, you would take a Stamp or Jungmann. ...

But I would also advise that you don't treat your PPL as something to "get over" before moving onto something more interesting. Flying is flying, from "straight and level" to advanced aerobatic training. All to be enjoyed.

[javelin]

Fly the Tiger !

I have just had the pleasure of checking a chap out onto a Robin DR250 (tailwheel big Jodel) who has just finished his PPL at Cambridge on a Tiger Moth. His flying was excellent, his empathy with the aeroplane was good, he handled the Robin with a confidence not usual for a low houred pilot. If you have the opportunity to enjoy the priviledge of gaining your PPL on such a classic, do it. When you are signed out, you will then always have that to look back on :ok:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I really don't know he answer to this one. I learnt in C150s and on gaining the PPL immediately converted onto the Chippy. I'd found the Cessna to be very disapointing - Richard Bach (again!) captured it for me - "pushing the high winged cabin into the sky, I thought' this isn't like I thought it would be. But if it's flying, I guess it will have to do'". The Chippy was what I'd thought it would be like (move the stick and something happens - NOW!). But by then, I was judging it as a PPL.

I'd advise you try both and then decide.

SSD

[Kingy]

I think it all depends on what type of flying you intend doing when you have gained your PPL.

If you fancy strip flying in your own PFA type plane, getting into fun aeros or even buying a DH82 it’s definitely the way to go.

If, however you want to bore holes in the sky, take the wife to Le 2k every month and hang around the flying club bar in a '4stripe' captain’s outfit. (only joking before anyone moans..!) You'd be better off learning in a Spamcan from a bigger airport with the emphasis on the procedural rather than 'stick and rudder' flying skills.

As the others have said - Only you know the answers to the above questions...

Oh and the Cub is still the best trainer ever IMHO. Buy a J3 and get someone to teach you in it (perfectly legal)

Kingy

[pulse1]

I suppose I have done it both ways. I originally learned ina Tiger after about 100 hours gliding. I really enjoyed flying the Tiger but, after about 75 hours, I began to feel that I was missing out on other aspects of flying, like radio work, controlled airspace and the like. I started to fly Cherokees and eventually gave up flying the Tiger.

After a break of over 20 years, I learned again - this time on a C152. I actually had to do the same amount of flying as the first time round but have never felt the same empathy with the aeroplane as I had with the Tiger. Partly that's down to age but I am sure that the need for critical rudder control, which depends on power and direction of turn, encourages better feel for what the aeroplane is doing. Now, after about 100 hrs in Spamcans I am hankering for the Tiger again. I did try one recently and was pleased that the rudder instincts were still there, especially when I managed to prevent a groundloop without any help from the instructor i.e. full rudder as soon as the tail swing starts.

The original questioner sounds like he is going to enjoy the learning process and I would encourage the Tiger route for someone like that. I certainly agree that some investment in warm clothing is a must. I have never been so cold, and I used to ride motorbikes.