Flight Planning providers???

[skytrucker757]

Can any of you good ops people out there recomend a decent flight planning provider for medium range operations.

I'm sure there are a number of companies, Sita , Jepp etc. would like to get some feedback before taking the plunge.

Cheers.

[Tenminutes]

Try these links :rolleyes:

SITA (http://www.sita.int/index.asp?activeDir=/home/industries/airlines/flight_operations/&activeFile=flight_briefing_services.html)

Flitestar (http://www.jeppesen.com/wlcs/application/commercewf?origin=category.jsp&event=link(browse)&wlcs_catalog_sourceKey=wlcs_categories&wlcs_catalog_destinationKey=wlcs_siblings&root_category_id=FP&wlcs_catalog_category_id=FP1A)

Jeppesen Jetplan (http://www.jeppesen.com/download/misc/JPDC_2003v2.pdf)

Air Support (http://www.airsupport.dk/)

[Opsdog]

Hi Skytrucker,

The company I work for uses SITA for our flight planning and flight watch.

My advice is TAKE AVOIDING ACTION!!!!. The ammount of problems we have had recently have driven us round the bend.

I think the main problem is the method of communication with their main system is antiquated and unreliable. Also, if we have to plan a route that is not pre loaded, we have to use a tool called the Automatic Route Builder. This is supposed to produce the best possible route but nine times out of ten it sends back total cr*p and routes that fail Eurocontrol.

As far as I'm concerned, it's more trouble than it's worth, but then I am sure that someone must find it OK.


Good luck

[Whispering Giant]

Skytrucker - you could also try Air Data, they also provide fltplanning softwear.

Rgds
W.G

[FL460]

Skytrucker
I have used SITA for the past 10 years and overall they are very good. Back up is excellent, 24/7 and the guys on the help desk are all qualified FAA dispatchers or Ops bods. SITA airport data is also one of the best I have used and is approved/used by Boeing and Airbus themselves.
Have previously used Jepps and Air Data but overall prefer SITA.

Opsdog
All suppliers have their faults, but all I can say is that SITA have at the last count, over 230 airlines worldwide using the system, so it cant be all that bad. Yes the ARB was/is dodgy but I understand there is a new Nav Data base being Beta tested with a European airline which is showing good results and should be on line early next year. Amongst other enhancements, the system will alert the user if a notam closes an airway on an already filed or calculated CFP and then do a re-rte if required. "Which is nice".

[Opsdog]

Hey FL460

You wouldn't happen to work for said company would you?

"new Nav Data base being Beta tested with a European airline which is showing good results and should be on line early next year. Amongst other enhancements, the system will alert the user if a notam closes an airway on an already filed or calculated CFP and then do a re-rte if required. "Which is nice".

My understanding is that the New Nav Database is well overdue and just does not work.

I am sure SITA's sales people would tell us any old crap if they thought they could make a few bucks.

Oh, and since when did an FAA dispatcher not know what a Max Brake Release Weight was. Because the guy I spoke to on the helpdesk just did not have a clue.

More sales speak!!

[FL460]

Opsdog
I dont work for them but have conections on "the inside", besides, as stated in my prevuious post I am a user of the system and attend the user group meetings.
Yes the New Nav is overdue but my info I have is as I stated on my previous.
And.... if you had read my post, I also stated that apart from qualified FAA dispatchers there are experianced Ops bods as well.

As I beleive this is a country of free speech I only offered my opion based on 25 years exeperience in this business. It would interesting to know how long you have been doing this?

Toodle pip

[Courtman]

Skytrucker757

Check your PM's!

Regards,
Courtman
:)

[skytrucker757]

Thanks to all for your honest opinions. Didn't want to start a war though between Opsdog and FL460.

I am sure that there are many with good and bad experiences of different companies, so it's good to hear both sides.

Thanks Courtman, I'll put it to my colleagues and will probably pick your brains further.

[Opsdog]

FL460

In answer to your question, I came into ops ten years ago after losing my Class 1 medical.

I have a thirty year background in aviation from being a flying instructor to 9,500 hrs on large transport aircraft.

Although I do not hold an FAA Dispatchers License, I think I have a fair idea how things work by now.

I did not mean to belittle the helpdesk staff at SITA, I normally find them very helpful and knowledgeable especially when it comes to what can only be termed as the user unfriendly interface with their system.

I think that the person I had problems with on the helpdesk was probably a trainee, as he seemed to have less an idea of how the system worked than myself and my staff. (And not meaning in any way to be racist, we all work in a global environment, he did have a problem speaking english).

Anyway, I do not want to get into a war with anybody but I can only express my view about the SITA flight planning system to somebody that has asked for it. Where would Skytucker be if we all waxed lyrical not wanting to upset anyone!
:p

[FL460]

Opsdog
No problems
You beat me on the flying hours, and its good to see someone from the flight deck doing ops. Now you know what we have to put up with :)

Skytrucker
Good luck with what ever you choose.

[LOKE]

Anyone have experience with Nav Tech?

Loke

[srs what?]

Several SITA customers leaving to go to Navtech.

[FEBA]

SRSW
Out of the frying pan into the fire
FEBA

[Eurobrit]

Try the fllwg link for further info:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97255&highlight=lido

Good luck
EB

[srs what?]

I'm talking flight planning software here not out-sourced Ops and the DispatchPro tool not the basic internet program.

[Whooaahh]

srs what?

To correct your "several" comment. Only 2 SITA customers have left us to go to NavTech. Both were due to 2004 budget contraints and were not a problem with the service as such although the delayed release of NewNav was cited by one as a contributary factor.

As the designated sales person for SITA's Flight Operations Portfolio in Europe you can't get any closer to insider knowledge as I was closely involved in both of them. The two operators were both European based.

With very few credible startups in my region, and globally for that matter, the only way to grow our business is to target existing users of competitor systems (preferred option) or persuade existing customers to increase their use of our services by utilising the Supplimentary options such as Flight Plan Uplinking, Over Flight Charge Analysis, or Flight Briefing On-Line.

It is very much a case of some you win, some you loose. The trick is winning more than you loose and we have been doing pretty well over the 5 years I've been in the chair keeping the balance of power in our favour

FL460

Thanks for you words of support, much appreciated. To correct your "230" number it is now 246 and that includes the 2 signatures received in the last week.

Whooaahh!!!

[ILPAAW]

Nice try.
Mr Wincott never convinced us it was that good !!

[geronimo]

Have you tried or seen LIDO in operation. LH product... Expensive but the best...

You have to see it to believe it...

G...E...R...O...N...I...M...O

[Opsdog]

Whooaahh

When you leave your comfy sales position in Geneva, then maybe we will believe what you say in defence of SITA.

Until that time nobody in their right mind is going to take what you say seriously. (After all, who the hell believes a salesman!)
You are hardly going to bite the hand that feeds you.

:E

[Whooaahh]

Do I know you, OpsDog? 'cos you certainly don't know me judging by your unqualified dismissal of anything I have to say.

My comfy sales position has me on the road for 70% of my life and most of that to places that can only be described as 'not somewhere you would take your wife and kids on holiday'. I have rack up a damn sight more hours in the air than most pilots...Only my furniture seems to be permanently based in Geneva.

For your information, I got this 'comfy Geneva based sales position' after 16 years in Crewing, Flight Ops, & Aircraft Dispatch. Not 30 years as a pilot, I know, but at least I'm not bitter and twisted as the result of being medicalled out of the position I worked all my life to achieve.

You are quite right to say "who the hell believes a salesman"... that's why I always start my "pitch" with a brief rundown of who I am and what I've been doing for the past 20 years in aviation (I got in by emptying toilets and loading bags so I have certainly done my time.) Credibility and trust makes sales in this business not salesmen. I have never actually considered myself a salesman, just an aviation professional with an (educated) opinion of a specific line of products. Granted SITA currently pays my salary, but as anyone who knows me will confirm, I am very much my own man with my own opinions of what is a good system and what isn't. I have even turned away prospective customers for SITA as our system wasn't suited for their specific style of operation.

To fully evaluate any system, you have to get behind the bell's and whistles, the sales schpiel and the glossy brochures and examine the mathematics at the core level...The algorithm's behind the SITA solution are second to none; the result being a highly accurate end product "the dispatch brief".

All the systems out in the marketplace are designed to produce the same end product using the same core data; aircraft performance data, nav data & atmospheric data; so how come they all produce different numbers?

Stop 'SITA bashing' for the sake of it, and do a professional, comprehensive evaluation of the other vendors and their solutions. You'll probably end up back where you started and resigning with SITA...four of our European customers in 2003 have done just that. 246 customers is no mean feat, only Jeppesen has more and they have the GA, ExecJet and Military markets pertty well sewn up which is a market we are prevented from addressing due to the legal structure of our organisation. Take these away from Jeppesen's customer list and you are left with pretty much the same customer number as SITA has.

and again, for your information, I leave my 'comfy sales position in Geneva' next Friday and am going back to the frontline. My choice, not SITA's!!

Even though I am moving on, I still believe the SITA solution delivers the best value for money out there; I also agree that LIDO is an excellent system but who can afford almost US$1M upfront costs...their existing customers certainly couldn't judging by the headlines over the past 6 months!!! Behind the scene's the majority of guy's supporting the SITA solution are excellent, fully dedicated and highly experienced, so as soon as I get the opportunity with my new company, I'll be signing up to use it in anger.

Don't critisise people you know nothing about...it only goes to prove your own ignorance and immaturity which for someone with 30 years in the business is quite pathetic.

Whooaahh!!!

[Whooaahh]

Hey guy's...

I'm now officially not on the SITA payroll any more.

Does that now allow me to post here without being branded biased? :ok:

I can't see myself having much time to post much, what with the new job and all, but I'll try to pop in when I can just to make sure OpsDog is behaving himself! :E

Whooaahh!!!

[Opsdog]

Whooaahh

Thank you for your frank, and may I say, agressive response.

Two things:

a) Amassing hundreds of hours sitting in an aluminium tube sipping Gin and Tonics counts for nowt!

b) Hook Line and Sinker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!