ATC Sickness

[ILS 119.5]

Just heard that a certain regional airport is now starting to give written warnings to its staff if they have five separate unrelated sickness periods. This includes ATC staff and therefore ATCO's and ATSA's. If ATCO's are not allowed to work as per the ANO when they are sick, does this mean that the ATCO's will be put under pressure to work when they are feeling ill in fear of a written warning. Surely this is unsafe and what legal standing has the ATCO? What about the ATSA's would any ATCO want an assistant to work alongside trying to do a job in a professional way whilst ill? Imagine this, 2 days off for a migraine, 2 head colds during a year (quite common), a viral infection and some other form of sickness amounting to 10 days off in total. This means a written warning. Over three years this is 3 warnings and therefore dismissed! I don't think anybody in the ATC profession should be put under pressure to work if they are ill, I can see this in other working environments but not in the aviation industry.What do you think?

[bagpuss lives]

Which "certain regional airport" are we talking about here?

[ILS 119.5]

NE of EGCC. APP Freq 123.75

[bagpuss lives]

Ta! - and more to the point, oh dear.

We're supported very well in this respect. If we're ill we're told to stay away in no uncertain terms - it's as simple as that. Probably thanks to our Manager ATC (Area) who is a thoroughly decent chap!

[ILS 119.5]

OK but what are your views. I certainly would not like to be on a flight where either one of the pilots (or both), or any of the controllers were ill and under pressure to work in fear of losing their jobs. I thought the aviation industry was the safest in the world. This is not so if ATC staff are being made to work whilst ill in fear of losing their jobs.

[vintage ATCO]

Well, I am sure you'll know what the views are here. Has it been drawn to the attention of the Men from the Ministry?

[Tower Ranger]

A certain place not a million miles from me will give you a warning for three periods of illness within each 12 months. So it is possible to have only three days off sick in a year and get disciplined. It`s also impossible to refuse overtime without the same risk.

[250 kts]

Why are we so worried about "naming and shaming" these airports/employers?

Surely the more information that is in the public domain in respect of working conditions then the less liklihood there is that they will continue to get away with it-especially if they were to get few applicants for vacancies in the future.

Come on folks-if these are the FACTS then let's not be afraid to air them properly.

[ILS 119.5]

Sorry you didn't get the earlier hint it's LBA, EGNM, Yeadon Airfield, OK.

[bagpuss lives]

ILS 119.5 - I don't think 250kts was being "funny" about it - he / she actually has a very good point.

The only way practises like this will be stopped is if those who perpetuate such allegedly totalitarian and dangerous schemes are named and indeed shamed. For everyone's sake.

Imagine the popular BBC TV programme "Watchdog" if no company or product were ever named. It would lose 95% of it's power and 100% of its point and usefulness.

Do the people at these units have any sort of union representation? If so perhaps a formal discussion with management could and should take place if, as you say, lives are being put at risk.

There are official ways and means to do things if you believe things are so utterly serious after all, this isn't a game we're talking about here.

May I suggest also that http://www.chirp.co.uk/ is worthy of some viewing and participation on the matter.

[PH-UKU]

However I for one get pretty sick of continually covering for those who take the piss out of the system..... sickness is one thing but, (at a previous place of employment, in a galaxy far far away) I knew of some who had 26 days a year (often weekends and rarly more than 2 days at a time) - AND a 10 year previous track record/history - does every unit have it's SickNote or Lemsip?

How do you separate the legitimate from the malingerers ? I know ... you promote them :yuk:

[ILS 119.5]

niteflite01 - Yes I agree, from what I know , most of the staff are p*****ed about the situation and chirp is the next avenue. First of all, if ATCO's and ATSA's are ill whilst on duty then Yes lives are being put at risk. I do not know if they have union representation, but the point is why should it go that far. Safety is the most paramount importance in the UK and worldwide, why should it come down to a pprune thread to discuss these situations. Why can't the powers that be see this and try to accommodate. I think, as said earlier, it's up to the Men from the Ministry to make a decision. If they read this, which I'm sure they will.

[Nogbad the Bad]

It would be interesting to hear anyone from the Guild share their thoughts on this subject ?

[DC10RealMan]

I dont think that NATS is immune from this "system" of pressuring employees to work when not fit. It is now NATS policy to refuse to promote or interview candidates for internal posts because of their sick record. If you are keen it might make you think about coming to work when not fit.

[vintage ATCO]

Any company will have Absence Controls in place, a system which should sort out the malingerers and encourage them back to work, and which helps people who are genuinely ill. But it is a fine line between applying a bit of pressure to encourage people not to go sick too often, and the requirements of an ATCO to present him/herself fit for duty.

ILS 119.5 - doesn't anyone feel comfortable enough to have a quiet word with your Inspector?

[yaffs]

frankly outrageous that folk will be put under pressure to come into work when they are unwell

maybe there are a few folk who swing the lead at the unit and therefore this is why da management are bringing this policy in?

(dc10 chap - nats have had that policy for a number of years - although at a unit i was working at a few years ago - a member of staff who was always sick for a saturday morning shift without fail and a good few sunday morning shifts was promoted despite this!!)

yaffs

[Standard Noise]

The unit Tower Ranger is talking about is Belfast City. I know, because I used to work there and was interviewed by my boss about my sick leave.
I get severe throat infections 2 - 3 times a year, but while the "management" (and I use the term very loosely) at the City thought I was taking the p1ss, I was able to prove that it was genuine. The ATSM was very supportive, but was obliged under company procedures to interview/counsel me. His report to the higher management suggested no further action, and indeed none was taken against me. However, the decision rests with the higher levels of management, not within the ATC dept. It's all a bit worrying really.
I know of members of staff who will come in to work ill, in order to preserve their sick records, as the City airport used to give an extra days leave to anyone who had an unblemished sick record for more than 12 months. Personally, I never felt the need to put passenger safety, my licence or my fellow ATCO's licences at risk by coming in while I was less than 100%, all for the reward of an extra 8 hours leave! Much better to have a few days off to sort yourself out.

[Jerricho]

Hell, SN, you serious about the extra day's leave thing? That's effin outrageous. I don't think there would be much for anybody to stand on if, go forbid, after a serious incident an ATCO came out with "Oh, I've got the flu". Niteflite is right, raise the issue.

Unfortunately the system is open to people taking the p*ss out of it, and it does become apparent which individuals may come down with "soccer-itis".

[niknak]

There was a time when I would have gone to work with a broken leg and my left arm dropping off, but no longer.

If you're not fit to work, you're not safe to work, it's as simple as that, it comes under duty of care, and the health and safety at work act, which is the responsibility of both employer and employee.

The management at "123.75" deserve everything they get for this ridiculous and petty minded approach - I only hope that there's maximum publicity on this subject, and the travelling public there find out exactly how little the airport authority think of their safety.

[Tower Ranger]

Hi SN , Yeah it`s pointless going in when your not up to it but as you know some people would rather colapse at their desks than admit they`re sick.
But don`t get me started on the sick pay scheme because I really don`t think anybody would believe it. I just hope I`m never seriously ill whilst in my present job.

[Avman]

On the one hand the problem lies in there being no system in place to verify if the sick are sick. Here in Limbabwe if my wife reports sick she can expect a visit from a representative of her company's medical insurance company any time during her period of absence, even if it's one day. This isn't done at ATC Euromuddle and we too have the regular sickies who are too ill to come to work but, fortunately for them, not ill enough it seems to be seen on the golf course!

On the other hand, there's a great deal more stress attached to the job stemming not just from the controlling itself but from incompetent managers and politics. Some people have less resistance then others and genuinely feel the need to recharge the batteries from time to time by taking "time-out".

[Standard Noise]

Hi TR, sorry mate, couldn't resist letting that one out, but you never know, things may get better for you if the new owners decide to change things.

Jerricho - I don't work there anymore, thankfully, but I was the union rep in my time at Belfast City, and I was just waiting for them to try to discipline any of us for being sick. Then I would have had not only the union involved, but CAA SRG.
Now that the City is owned by the same company that I work for, I am keeping my present union guy up to date on anything that they may try to bring across the Irish Sea.

There was also that clause in your contract that said you had to work "reasonable overtime in line with the needs of the business", which could be at periods of very short notice eg 30 mins notice. This was more of an inconvenience to your private life than anything else, except when they expected you to work more than the allowable 10 hour duty time. I will admit that I did it, more often than not, because it was a deviation from the norm and because it usually involved a medical flight (eg transplant organs/seriously ill children). But there were occasions when these extensions were because of late scheduled flights that the company didn't want to lose revenue on.
Once or twice, I did refuse to do the extension past 23:45 (our late shift started at 13:45) just to make a point.

I do sometimes wonder what happened to all those SRATCOH break forms that were filled in.:confused: :ok:

[Scott Voigt]

This thread on sick leave is rather interesting. One thing that I don't see talked about though is that you can be taking just about any sort of medication for a cold, allergy etc... You feel FINE after taking it, but you are no longer allowed to work. So you take sick leave and being that you feel fine, you go out. I really don't see an issue with that.

Just as an aside, we can have up to three days of sick time with no visit to the doctor to prove that you are sick over here. There are times though when magement does violate the contract and give you what we call a sick leave letter for abuse of sick leave. Like one that went out to one individual last month. This person had 40 hours of sick leave used in one pay period ( Two week period.) . The employee had to bring it to the managers attention that his time and attendence record showed him present at work for all of those days on that pay period. The employee had donated the leave to a fellow employee to use ( We have a program that people with serious illness can apply for leave from fellow workers to help cover them.). Manager was stumped <G>.

regards

Scott

[manky]

Are Leeds using the Bradford Factor for sickness?
If so the formula used by management is:

spells absent x spells absent x total number of days.

So someone with 1 spell of 10 days off gets 10pts.
Someone with 10 spells of 1 day off gets 1000pts.

I think the main idea of the scheme is to make people think twice about throwing "sickies" for the odd day, as you can see the points add up quickly that way.

As usual though, this scheme affects everyone in the company when usually its a minority who are thowing regular "sickies". Most employees and employers know how they are.

Previous posters are quite right, this scheme makes some people who are genuinely sick afraid of staying at home, so they come to work with their colds etc and spread them around the workplace.

I do believe the employees at Liverpool Airport are under this scheme, so presumably ATC are as well as I believe its done "in house" now. Maybe someone from there could confirm this.

[Standard Noise]

The management of a large regional in SW England offered it's employees free flu jabs this year to try to prevent an outbreak of flu. I thought that was a nice touch. Something that benefits the employees just as much, if not more than the company.