French Age 60 Rule

[packsonflite]

Has anyone out there managed to negotiate an exemption from the French Age 60 rule, or alternatively, does anyone know of someone else whose has managed to achieve such an exemption.

If so I'd appreciate any relevant info, in particular the DGAC address that I might write to to obtain such an exemption for myself. I imagine that the French equivalent of the UK CAA Flight Crew Licencing department would be the place, but I'm open to any (polite) suggestions.

Thanks in anticipation,

Packsonflite

:ok:

[thegypsy]

packsonflite French Age 60 Rule

You state you are from 30W!! Are you sure it is not cloud cuckoo land???

Surely you know the French brought this in to satisfy the Unions.

I would be surprised to hear they would consider individual exemptions.

[126.9]

You might want to call Farnair Switzerland and ask them how they did it; I know that they had an over-60-captain operating an ATR72 over France between BSL and CGN recently.

[packsonflite]

126.9

Many thanks for that, I'll see what I can find out.

thegypsy

30W is where the heart is but the UK is where the home is. I am aware that the rules was set to placate the unions, but the fact is I have information from the CAA that indicates that individuals can apply for exemptions.

I've heard that there are several European airlines that have pilots over age 60 operating over and into France.

But thanks for your comments anyway. Not sure where cloud cuckoo land is, what's the main airport?

Packs

:ok:

[Moderate Man]

Does anyone know the real reason the French apply the 60 limit? Because people are living longer and are therefore having a negative financial effect as pensioners and also because the financial world is producing poorer investments there are obvious pressures for everyone to work longer. Presumably well paid French pilots would prefer to retire to generous pension schemes at 60 and this would be the union preference. But surely officialdom/Air France would have the opposite view? Could it be that French pilots enjoy some preferential tax treatment because they retire earlier than normal and so if they retire at a normal age they would lose that tax advantage?
JAR-FCL 1.060 shows Italy having the same exception to the age limit as France. Does anyone know if Italy will give individuals permission to continue past 60?
Thanks for any information

[gofer]

Does this apply to overfly as well as destination !

We all discovered how it applied to Destination when Crossair sent a 60 year old to france on his birthday - but how would the french know the age of an overflight crew member unless he had to land !!!!!!!!!!! Yes its a risk but....

[Smokie]

As far as I'm aware, the rule applies to over flights as well.
Although I stand to be corrected if anyone has info to the contrary.

[Basil]

The reference is: Circular AIC A 21/00 AUG17 issued by the Direction Generale de l'Aviation Civile.

The English translation states: ' . . . in conformity with ICAO Annex 1 . . . acting as a commander on international air transport flights in French airspace is only authorised to those captains who are under the age of 60.'

Interestingly it specifically refers in the English and French versions to 'international' flights so one assumes that a French captain over 60 could command an internal public transport flight.

[Few Cloudy]

This directive flies in the face of JAR rules and should be gone after by the JAR authorities soonest.

Because of it at least one company I know had to schedule its older UK based captains to fly to Scotland and Athens all the time, where as the Swiss branch had to chop you at 60, 'cos you don't go far from GVA without overflying France.

How French unions could benefit from foreign operators limiting its Captains to 60 I don't see. I am also sure that certain companies either don't know of this restriction or don't respect it.

As has been done to death on another thread, people age very differently from each other - some guys are out of shape by fifty and some are fit as fiddles at seventy these days. My opinion is that any pilot fulfilling the medical and skill requirements (which are pretty exacting) should be allowed to pursue his career.

And if you subscribe to a united Europe, you should accept all the rules (yeah - Euro as well).

[Baron rouge]

This 60 year old rule was introduced by the unions when AIR FRANCE took over AIR INTER.

AIR FRANCE pilots had always retired at 60 but AIR INTER pilots not and the big deal was about seniority list.

By making it illegal to work above 60 the AIR FRANCE unions solved the problem the usual way, that is by depriving all the non AF pilots the right to work after 60.

Thank you AF pilots...

[126.9]

I'd like to point out that there is not a single JAA member state, that has not filed some or other difference in regulations or procedures to the JAR requirements. The French age 60 rule, the British licence format, the Dutch licence signing by local TRE's only, the Swiss issuing Swiss ATPL's, the Italian age 60 rule, and so it goes on...

As for Flying in France over age 60; some companies do, and some companies don't. Whether it is legal or not is irrelevant when it comes down to a matter of whether your company cares or not. Farnair Switzerland don't give a hoot and routinely put an over 60 captain on the BSL-CGN route flying over France.

[orange_bubble]

Same rule applies over Italy also, not just france.

[FlapsOne]

The sad fact of life is, if a Captain aged over 60 were flying in command over French Airspace and had to divert to land on French soil, that captain puts his licence at risk if discovered by the authorities to be in breach of this daft regulation.

Until the rule is changed, or unless inpossession of an exemption (if such things are possible), a company should not put a commander in that position, and a commander should not accept a duty that puts him in that position.

Continuing to operate over France in breach of the regulation is a risk - the potential repercussions of which must be weighed up very carefully.

[Basil]

<<Baron rouge>> Snoopy perchance??

[Ignition Override]

If a diversion could end a pilot's career, then can such a regulation easily motivate a crew to divert to a very distant airport, which might not be best for airworthiness and pilot judgement?:E

[FlapsOne]

Override

That's one of the reasons we're having the debate.

French are 'enforcing' no overflight for over 60s ergo limited chance of diverting to French airfied.

I doubt very much that, if legitimately flying in Northern Spain for example, but forced to divert into France, there would be a problem. They couldn't be that daft could they?

Italy permits overflight, and will accept diversion. They will not permit scheduled landings by commanders over 60.

Not sure exactly of the Portuguese position in all this.

It doesn't yet affect me but the whole over 60 issue is ridiculous.

If medically fit, and proficient to operate, what's the problem?

[packsonflite]

Been very encouraged by the response to my original post, but would like to state the original request which was whether anyone out there has the address of the DGAC equivalent of the CAAs Flight Crew Licensing section

Packsonflite

:ok:

[Cathar]

Division Aptitudes Techniques des Personnels Navigants
Service de la Formation Aéronautique
et du ContrôleTechnique
Direction Générale de l’Aviation Civile
50, rue Henry-Farman
75720 Paris
CEDEX 15

[FlapsOne]

Google..............DGAC.........address..25 seconds !

[cumulo]

Google..............DGAC.........address..25 seconds !
25" with google, but expect 25 month to get a positive response from the dgac.
If you want things to be done quickly, go and visit them and make your request with a 357 magnum.

.....& keep us informed!

[akada]

First of all I would like to applaud the French for keeping the 60 rule. Too bad that this does not apply throughout the rest of Europe.

If I ever have to fly through French airspace or divert to a French airport with a captain over 60 I will jump on the radio and report to ATC. This to protect my license and myself. I hope each and every one of you keeps this in mind so that you will not end up in trouble.

Why do pilots continue to fly beyond 60? Well most arguments for this seem to be the financial situation. Looking back just a few years this was not an option. So for that reason I don't quite understand how this has become such a surprise to so many.
If you had been employed by a hamburger-chain, yes then I understand your financial reasons. But we are talking about pilots here right?

Many companies have a retirement plan to retire at 60. If pilots continue to struggle for a continuation beyond 60 they will also put the possibility to retire at 60 in jeopardy for everybody else.
Why don't people respect life and take time to do something meaningful like spending time with grandchildren, travel, go fishing or whatever you enjoy on your time off. Bottom line: Don't we all work for our spare time? What I am trying to say is that we are all given a very short time on this planet, and we should all try to get the most out of it if we are lucky enough to maintain a good health.

Many pilots also say that as long as you are medically fit you should be able to continue. Why do we not include mental fitness in this? Some maintain a great mental fitness for a much longer time than 60, but in general I think it's fair to say that mental fitness decreases with age.

There is a large group of young pilots out there with huge bankloans on education, house, car and families to provide for. Each time a pilot decides to continue beyond 60, each time a younger pilot gets robbed on his pension, better salary, captain upgrade and an unemployed has to stand aside. That's two pilots affected by one pilots egoistic behaviour.

Another aspect I don't understand is how you can continue working when you know that your younger colleagues want nothing else than for you to quit!

Respect your profession and respect your colleagues!

[Tan]

akada

"Respect your profession and respect your colleagues!"

re: your quote, perhaps you should take your own advice...

[akada]

Tan!

You missed the whole point didn't you?

Or are you perhaps close to 60 or past?

[Tan]

akada

Hmm another "wind-up" artist. It must be a slow day at the flying club..

[MPH]

AKAD:
From what planet did you just land!!! Must be from somewhere in outer space?
I wonder if your views should also be applied to doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. I know some young layers and doctors whom are also paying student loans, I suppose they should start to lobby and have their older ‘colleagues’ banned from exercising their professions?
:hmm:

[malaysian eaglet]

First the French flyers are not getting any advantage by retiring at 60.
Secondly, the pensions of the french system are quite correct in regard of most of the other european ones; thanks to the Unions who have established this system just after second world war II.
Third, plenty of things to do for an old flyer grounded -for professional activities-, such as teaching the young generation, or do the things we have not gotten the time to do before.
Fourthly, solidarity between generation, it is an opening for the young pilots and the unemployed flyers, a lot of them with wife and from time to time kids, and waiting for a job with financial difficulties. Do you remember that it was not so easy when you were young? Do you remember that in those old times the general situation was better than now? have you notice the more difficult environment for a young guy than on your time?
Definitively, I am a strong supporter of the french system which authorises the oldests to benefit of free time at the autumn of their life and helps the young generation by flying sooner.

[Omark44]

Two quite young gentlemen who have yet to discover most of what life is really all about.

Both of you talk as though entry into a 'system' or pension scheme or a national airline is the norm. Far from it. The majority of pilots don't progress via that system, you are the chosen few and you shouldn't forget it. The more general route through an aviation career can involve redundancy, cut backs and employment with several companies, going to the bottom of seniority systems from a previously held high position more than once, long periods unemployed and burning up what pension scheme and savings you may have been lucky enough to salvage from the liquidator, when was the last time either of you had to leave a job and join the dole queue?

And what makes you think that you are now getting it harder than we older pilots were at your age? Again, way off, after World War 2 their was an abundance of young pilots who, on reaching 55/60, wanted to carry on flying and did so, to the detriment of their younger colleagues at the time.
I am sure many of us would have loved to chuck it all in and go fishing, sailing, baby sitting or whatever, the sad facts were that we couldn't as there was not enough money in the pot.

Akada, just what are you talking about? "just a short time back flying beyond sixty was not an option", total nonsense. When I first got my ATPL the retirement age was SIXTY FIVE, that was the norm and that is what we are trying to regain, the NORM.
Oh yes, and we have all had a wife and kids to support and on a lot less money than either of you two get paid today and with no job security and little or no pension scheme.

You guys should really do your homework before you post on these forums which are for all professional pilots and not the minority such as yourselves.

[akada]

My eyes are full of tears for all you guys approaching 60 or beyond. It's so sad to hear that your financial situation is, and has been so bad throughout your whole career.
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU'RE FOOLING??????????????????

The whole financial thing is just a sad excuse for you being afraid of getting old and loosing respect together with your four stripes.
If you want to continue flying, do so at the flying clubs and share your experience with becoming pilots instead.

Malaysian says that unions have established this system and he is correct. This system which you guys have fought so hard to develop. Should we just throw that out the window because of your egoism? Do you realise you are destroying all this for a lot of younger pilots? Perhaps you do, but you sure as h*** don't seem to bother about it when you elbow yourselves through the crowd.

It's about time that the rest of us who agree with the age 60-rule come forward and express ourselves. Until now we have just sat quiet, hearing your (excuse the expression) piss-poor excuses. I urge more people in favour of the age 60 rule to come forward and not let these whining men hang on to the rudder.

If you have no life outside Aviation and feel you must continue flying. At least show some dignity and request to downgrade yourselves into the right seat.

[Tan]

Gentlemen

Below is a link to a very good article on Internet "Trolls". Who they are, how they work and how to deal with them.

I recommend all regular users of these Forums read this... from time to time forums get infected with a "TROLL" as this thread apparently has.

Please visit: http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm

Cheers

[pigboat]

Actually, I believe the age 60 retirement regulation was an American invention. It came into effect in the fifties when Pete Quesada was in charge of the FAA.

[HotDog]

Let's revise your opinion on this when you are approaching 60 akada. I have heard your song so many times before and oh, how it changed when the singer saw his retirement looming!:rolleyes:

[con-pilot]

Pigboat is 100% correct. The age 60 rule was an all American invention.

The reasons that all airlines (well nearly all airlines) support the age 60 rule IS TO SAVE MONEY, bottom line!

And with nationally supported airlines it becomes a matter of politics (and economics).

To the young pilots on this thread crying about some poor old (?) captain staying past the age of 60 is going to keep you from advancing; wait until you get in the late 50 and see no reason to retire, except it will be forced on you for economical and political reasons.

Just wait!

(I really agreed with your point of view until I hit 50! Guess what THINGS CHANGE!)

(and to the person that said they would report any pilot over the age of 60 flying in French airspace to cover their ass
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: and the horse you rode in on

Sorry little boy!

[MPH]

Akada:
Dignity we should all have, respect is what some people seem to lack!:hmm:

[no reds]

Forgive the foray off track but met an 80yr old F27 captain in Leipzig a couple of years ago,german national on monthly medicals,operating within the federal border.At the time they were not JAA compliant don`t know situation now.

Forgive the foray off track but met an 80yr old F27 captain in Leipzig a couple of years ago affectionately known as "grandad". German national on monthly medicals operating within federal borders.At the time Germany was not JAA compliant don`t know present situation (believe under jaa sum of years of 2 pilot crew not to exceed 120) quick rant here afraid . . . if eu states can look after and protect their own crews at the expense of other eu states why the **** can`t the UK? ! !

Ooops well i`ve not been well

[Omark44]

Well akada you are either a wind-up merchant or a pathetic little person who really doesn't understand what life may hold for you and you would appear to have serious misconceptions about your own fallibility too.

[akada]

Very strong reactions from everybody! I think your frustrated answers again demonstrate your egoistic behaviour.

Pilots over 60 do not contribute to airsafety. CRM is automatically thrown out the window when your younger colleagues feel bad about your presence. Airlines are not an institution for your wellbeing. You people from the 40's have had it all served on silver trays. You grew up in the happy 50's and have seen the best of Aviation. Today we have layoffs all over the world thanks to terrorism and not to forget all the low fare airlines. You have seen the sweet days. It's time to let the younger generation continue before you destroy it all and force everyone to continue to 65.

I've been called a wind up artist and more by you people in this forum. All I'm trying to do is to knock some sense into your thick skulls. You are behaving like vultures.

No matter how much you scream, the only ones you're convincing you can't afford to retire are yourselves.

[pigboat]

Wow! Pilots over 60 do not contribute to air safety. Such insight.

At what point approaching 60 does the contribution to air safety go out the window? Is it 23:55 on the eve of the 60th birthday? 23:59? Or is the slide into incompetence more prolonged?

Check out the following two links

http://www.airdisaster.com/eyewitness/ua811.shtml

http://www.corazon.com/811ori.pdf

The Captain on that flight was 59 and change - it was his second to last flight. He landed a grossly overwight 747, at night - that had sustained structural damage and had two engines out on the same side - off an overwater black hole approach.

[Croqueteer]

How to put a sparkle in Akada's eyes? Shine a torch in his ear.

[twistedenginestarter]

I was renewing my Class 1 this week (age 54) and discussing the age 60 limit with the doctor. His position is the likelihood of particularly heart attack/stroke rises steeply after age 60. So there is a reason for this rule although whether it is justifiable is another question.

Curiously I was reading 137 which is which is nowadays classed as 'prehypertensive' but he made no comment.

[FlapsOne]

Why doesn't the risk increase sharply after 59 years and 3 months?

Amazing how an illness can know the birthday so accurately!!!!!!!

[BlueEagle]

A Specialist in Aviation Medicine, based in London, conducted a study of pilots between the ages of sixty and sixty five. The study was spread over a considerable period and came to the conclusion that there was no discernible difference between the sixty year old's health and the sixty five year old's, nor any perceivable increase in the risk of heart attack. Bearing in mind the extent to which a pilot's health is monitored throughout their career and the requirement to maintain a reasonable level of fitness it is inappropriate to include statistics from all walks of life as only those from professions similar to that of pilot that require the same level of fitness and monitoring are relevant.

Lets us be honest, the resistance to moving the age back to sixty five after it was arbitrarily moved to sixty has no safety ramifications whatsoever, it tends to come from the under forty years of age pilots who, in the main, are well established with a major carrier and have their pension and future career all mapped out without much risk of layoff/retrenchment/redundancy or the company going broke and putting them all on welfare.;)

[packsonflite]

akada

Yes, I'm approaching 60.

However in all your rantings the one reason that you failed to give as a reason for continuing in the job is quite simply the love of flying.

Even after 37 years in the business, I still get a buzz from going to work in order to do what I love - namely fly aeroplanes. It sure as hell beats painting the garden and mowing the house! (Thinks! :confused: Have I got that right?)

Packs

:ok:

[ooizcalling]

Two comments;

Packsonflite. Good luck with the DGAC but expect a LONG wait. Even getting a 'Carte de Sejoure' to work in France, which is valid for one year (renewable) takes about 10 months to process ! So when you get it there's about two months left on it before you have to go through the whole process again !!!! Applying that to your situation ...... well ...... like I say, Good Luck !

To the 'akada' types out there, from my experience in this industry, the number of early retirements that benefit F/O career advancement for reasons of 'career change', 'failed medical', etc etc far outweigh the few who wish to stay past 60 for whatever reason. So the balance is still well infavour of the upcomming F/O's, but I guess this little obsevation is irellivant to a closed mind eh ?

[Abel Coelho]

How about to start with a inter-European movement PRO65?

[fiftyfour]

The heart attack argument against age60+ pilots is irrelevent to flight safety when there are two fully qualified-on-type pilots on board. The chances of both pilots having medical problems on the same sector are zero. All european airlines insist on both pilots qualified as P1, so the remaining pilot (whatever his age) could cope with virtually anything that comes his way on the remainder of the flight.

[Bigscotdaddy]

Is AKADA a japanese word for idiot?

Take up professional Football. They usually retire at 35! That should keep you happy.

In a (probably doomed) attempt to give you some perspective, akada, myself and several of my colleagues have spent seriously large sums of money getting retrained for a new career in professional aviation in our 30's and 40's.

Several of us spent years as Instructors on tiny salaries with no pension available before managing to find Airline jobs.

Are you saying that after all that struggle to achieve what we have, we should then step aside at 60 on a pittance pension so that arrogant young guys like you can achieve an early promotion? I don't think so.

If you stopped to exercise your brain for a minute or two, you should be able to work out that this whole debate does not really affect the younger Pilot.

Most career pilots in the major carriers will have achieved excellent pensions by 55 or 60, and generally have no wish to keep on working. Only a small number of people like myself may need to consider that option, plus those that really do live for their work - and why shouldn't they continue to do that if they want?

Get a life laddie!!

[akada]

Bigscotdaddy! You wrote that several of us spent years on tiny salaries. That’s a correct statement. That does not mean though that you are allowed to steal the pension from younger colleagues, preventing upgrades, endangering the whole pensionsystem, preventing young pilots from getting into the airlines from their low income instructorjobs.
You are also saying that your struggle gives you the right to continue working beyond 60. That statement shows the egoistic thinking I’m talking about. Don’t even try to make us believe that your financial situation is that bad that you would starve if you were to retire at 60.

Packsonflite! You are the only one that gives a reasonable explanation to why you want to continue beyond 60 and that’s you passion for flying. I fully understand your reasons and I appreciate that you are not using the stupid excuse for a bad financial situation. If circumstances were different and there was a shortage of pilots it would be more understandable. If you love flying why don’t you go to the flyingclubs and share your lifelong experience where it would be appreciated?

I suppose and hope that all of you have and are supporting the pilot unions. For those who insist on working beyond 60 I suggest you take a look at Allied Pilots page: http://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/topics/issues/age_60_rule.pdf

No matter how much you are screaming for pity there will still be a majority of pilots that don’t want your presence on flightdeck

[Abel Coelho]

Screaming for pity??? what a joke you are my boy.

[dusk2dawn]

No matter how much you are screaming for pity there will still be a majority of pilots that don’t want your presence on flightdeck

Really ? A majority of my union mates voted in favour of 65 years as forced retirement age !

[Pirate]

With regard to the heart attack argument, back in the eighties, when the CAA Doctors would pull your medical very swiftly at the slightest abnormality on the ECG, the airlines protested that they were losing too many experienced pilots. The Authority therefore introduced the conditional medical certificate, allowing an "at risk" pilot to fly as long as his co-pilot had a full medical. As is the way of these things, the "at risk" group was carefully monitored. Over the succeeding years, the only pilots to suffer heart problems at the controls were those with clean medical certificates - the supposedly risky guys went on to collect their pensions. Red faces all round in the medical fraternity.

Today's aviation doctors, in the UK at least, are prepared to admit that they don't know as much about the heart as the old guard used to think. This has resulted in a much more proactive stance in getting medically grounded pilots back in the air, which has to be a good thing all round.

For what it's worth, my GP believes that if you pass 60 without any cardiac problems, you're most unlikely to have a heart attack in the future.

There are arguments for and against retirement at 60 but a dicky ticker isn't one of them.

confundemus

[Omark44]

I think we may have missed Akada's point. He wants us all out at sixty, regardless of pension state, financial status etc. just so that he can continue, fat dumb and happy, with his unbroken, structured career that he considers his God given right. From his posts I think it is not unfair to conclude that Akada is very young and still has a lot to learn.

(Oh yes Akada, if you or anyone else demonstrated to me that you resented my presence on the flight deck you would be off-loaded in very short order for an interview with the management who, if your lucky, would send you off on multiple CRM courses and if you are not would fire you as a flight safety hazard and your union would see you roasted).

[MasterBates]

Correct me if i´m wrong.
I heard the French rule excempted French pilots in domestic flights. We can´t overfly when over 60 but they themselves may operate locally at that age.

:confused:

[akada]

Dear readers!

I have now reached my goal in showing you all the egoistic motives the pilots over 60 have. Most of these pensioners have showed this in their own words. You just have to read the replies on my opinions. Some will probably feel great relief when I now announce that there will be no further comments from my side in this matter unless something extraordinary turns up.

To the rest of you! Keep up the good work and keep the vultures away!

[packsonflite]

Akada

Thank you for appreciating that I may hold sincere views, however I cannot afford to fly privately, and neither do I have any wish to pound the circuit in a Cessna 150 teaching someone else to do what I prefer to do myself.

I get my enjoyment flying aircraft with two or more engines and weighing in excess of 50 tonnes.

Sadly the one thing that I lack is the financial accuity and good fortune that you assume all of us are blessed with.

In response to your final post I have but one thing to say:

Whooppee!!!

[Basil]

Akada is clearly a troll (is that the term for a disinterested troublemaker?) usu people of low achievement/self esteem/no outgoing activities.
Pitiable but not worth acknowledging.

[pigboat]

Let me get this straight. The French aren't going to allow overflights by pilots over sixty?
What're they gonna do, shoot the guy down?

[JW411]

Last year I heard of the case of an over-60 captain being ramp-checked in France. Only after he had removed every single item of payload from his 4-engined turbo-prop was he was allowed to depart - as a private flight.

Leaving the freight behind makes it difficult to make a profit!

[Fokkerwokker]

Is France the country where the pilots are still fighting to retain their glass of wine with their inflight meal? Surely not. Just a malicious rumour I am sure.

[Few Cloudy]

As a bit of a backward boy when it comes to statistical mathematics - am I being very slow when I say I don't see that extending the career chances for everybody will disadvantage young pilots?

It seems to me, that they too would have the chance to fly on after sixty, so that the deal is fair for all:

Taking an average pilot career of Age 25yrs to Age 58yrs for argument's sake - that's 32yrs of flying - so expect 16 in the RHS and the rest in the left.

Taking a career from Age 25yrs to Age 65yrs also for argument's sake - you have a career of 40 yrs, so expect 20 in the LHS and 20 in the RHS.

So the only (on the face of it) unfair thing about extending Captains beyond 60 would be that at the moment of introduction the present FOs who see an upgrading round the corner would have to wait longer than they anticipate. In the course of time, however, this evens itself out, when they themselves are able to extend.

Now this all supposes a zero growth in air travel. When I joined a big carrier a century or so back, the Captains flying with me had flown only six or five years as copilots, because this airline was expanding fast at that time. I then waited fifteen years for a command, because the thing slowed down again. Later it sped up again - luck of the draw!

The example above also supposes that all pilots will want to take advantage of the extension possibilities. That is very unlikely as many pilots wish to retire at an earlier age, so the whole "problem" is likely to have even less of an impact than the vitriolic would have us believe.

Often it is just being forbidden from doing or being allowed to do something which affects the frustration level. I bet if the flexibility were there to extend, all would be happy but few would use it.

[Grandpa]

...was enforced first, as a company regulation, by Air-France, while Air-Inter (then the biggest in France for domestic flights) was permitting the old ones to continue flying after 60.

Then a law was passed applied to all airlines, and moreover Air-Inter was absorbed by Air-France....so now, after a transitory period, there are no more airline pilots flying after 60 in France.

The main argument for this law (which was promoted by French airline pilot's unions) was to lower the number of unemployed pilots.

For Pirate: your argument about the uncertainty of medical checks can be used in both directions, either when they stop yo or when they give you the right to fly: which one is the most dangerous for the community?

Then, if I believe your GP, the risk of heart attack is diminishing after 60.....Better you try to find epidemiloogic stats than trust this one...

[FlapsOne]

This all relates to an ICAO annex that France, Italy and Portugal choose to apply to varying degrees.

Most countries in Europe see it as nonsense and treat it as such.

[Pirate]

Grandpa

If you follow the thread back you will see that I was merely commenting on a rather rash assertion that 60+ pilots shouldn't fly because of an increased risk of heart attack. It isn't so - coronary conditions are no respecters of birthdays.

[amos2]

...Well!...I gotta tell you,

...I agree with these young turks that going beyond 60 just ain't on!

I tossed it in at 59, after 40 yrs in the trade, then moved on to a bit of sim work for the next 4 yrs, made more money per annum than I could have in the LHS, and then called it a day.

Now I spend my time on my private jetty watching the contrails overhead (I wonder if the young turks know what a contrail is?) and think about the great time I had.

And you know why I tossed it in?...

because I couldn't put up with all the young Sh#ts that occupy the RHS these days who believe they have a right to a command position without earning it!

They sicken me! Most of them are incompetent and they all have an attitude problem!

By the way...I drive these days!!

;)

[packsonflite]

Does anyone have any uptodate info regarding the US age 60 rule. I know that there was some proposal to move it up to 63, but it seems to have go very quiet as late.

Packs

:ok:

[Baron rouge]

Is France the country where the pilots are still fighting to retain their glass of wine with their inflight meal? Surely not. Just a malicious rumour I am sure.

For sure, the French DGAC wanted us to have TWO, and by the way smart guys like Akada are not allowed in our cockpits, thanks god.

[Moderate Man]

This discussion was helpful and civilised until AKADA started his extreme and silly comments. As he has such difficulty with rational thought it would probably be best to ignore him (or her?). However there may be more rational people who share his view that pilots should clear off from the work place when they reach 60, so that others can take their places. My response to this would be "But, why?" We don’t treat anybody else in this way. We don’t say to successful barristers, "You make lots of money so you should be pretty well-off by the time you are 55, so you can retire at that age and let someone else take your place". We don’t say to managing directors, "You can make heaps of money what with your bonuses and special deals and share options, so you can retire at 50, because lots of other people would like to have a go at being MD". Obviously not, and it is just as foolish to use such logic with pilots.
AKADA produced a link to an American site that supported the 60 limit. Following the link I could find no logical arguments, just statements and rhetoric.
If I had, say, a pension available on retirement equal to two thirds of my income then I would be happy to retire, but I don't. I see no obligation to explain my lack of wealth, but it is a fact, and I have a number of family dependent on my income. Another 5 years of working income would be enormously helpful to my family, to me and in a small way to my country. (As a worker paying taxes and spending money I am an asset to my country.)
As there are important safety considerations it seems to me that pilots retirement age should be determined by medical experts and by considerations of competency. Well, it has been. And the decision is 65.
May I invite Americans to try to justify the FAA position? Aren't you supposed to champion people's rights? What about my right to work when I am 60? Expert aviation doctors say I am safe to fly a plane. What right do your officials have to say that I can't?
As for France, someone recently told me that they thought that France classifies pilots similarly to artists, and they get some sort of favourable tax treatment. My informant thought that if they wanted to work until 65 they would lose this advantage. French pilots, could you let us know if this is true? As a founder member of the EU, does France not have a moral duty to comply with a reasonable EU regulation rather than put first the preferences of a particularly well-off group of French workers, or should I say non-workers?
I personally believe the arguments for 65 are clear. However officialdom in France and certain other countries have legislated otherwise. But do we know who made these decisions? If this is democracy shouldn’t it be rather more open?

[Grandpa]

Only one: lack of work for pilots, wich led pilots union to think it was better to give an opportunity for flying to people with a great need for money to sustain themselves and family, than to have the eldest continue flying while they could retire on good financial terms. A law was passed in French Parliament without opposition.

About the taxes payed by pilots: their used to be a special advantage (reserved to some categories of tax-payers: all crew members, journalists, artists....) to substract a big part of their declared income, considered "professional depense". This advantage disappeared years ago, but crew members got the possibility to substract the "real" professional spending as can do many independant workers in France .
There is a complicated regulation about it which takes into account the places where they travel, duration of travel, part of PC buying and using, car,...et al.

[Moderate Man]

Thanks for the info, Grandpa. It is always helpful to understand why something has come about, even if you don’t entirely agree with it.
Following your explanation would there be any difficulty in France applying what they have decided is best to pilots under their control (pilots working for a French based company)? and accepting EU agreed policies for everybody else? I am sure that in the “old days” countries respected each other’s regulations. For instance I seem to recall that Air Lanka had an age limit of 62. So an Air Lanka captain could keep going a little longer, and surely fly anywhere Air Lanka chose to send him. I am not sure of my facts here so please correct me if necessary.

[RAT 5]

2 questions:

126.9 said that this ruling applies to "International" flights. Might it be argued that flights within the EU bewteen Shengen States, where no presentaion of ID is required to cross borders, is not an International flight? I've no idea of the answer, but I wonder if anyone has tested the concept.

About licence signing in Holland. It was said that Dutch licences can only be signed by Dutch TRE's. Does this apply to initial LST's, all LST's, and what about LPC's? I ask because I recently had my Dutch licence annual LPC signed by a non-Dutch JAA TRE. I've heard nothing back from the IUW that this was wrong.

[Few Cloudy]

Rat 5, bit off track here but in answer to your question, if the license is a JAR one, then any registered JAR IRE/TRE can sign it. Also, if you are working in any other JAR rules country you can have your license administered there if you wish. FC.

[alexb757]

And to think akada (see previous posts) sees all those approaching or over 60 pilots as being egotistical!!!

There is a saying that he is perhaps not too familiar with (including most of his rantings) and that is "transference" meaning he/she will label a person or group of people having a certain trait or tendency when in reality, that is the very trait he has himself but does not realise it!!

Sounds to me your only interest in getting rid of the older guys is so that YOU can keep flying! Is that not "special interest" and egotistical? Maybe I'm missing something here.

And FYI I'm nowhere near 60 but have plenty of respect for my elder colleagues because I know I will be there someday and the staus quo will not always be in my favor.

Also, I'll tell you this - I would much rather fly with a 60-year old than a young, self-opinionated pip-squeak who thinks the world owes him a living but no one else. What will you sing the first time you get laid off/made redundant, have no pension, cannot pursue your dreams because there is NO opportuinity for you. My God, you should count your blessings if it is really that good for you because you have not lived. What planet do you come from my friend???!!!