George Cross?

[tony draper]

Asked this question in JB, just had a though that this would be the best place to get a answer.
One of our chaps has been awarded the George Cross for action above and beyond during the war in Iraq, I always thought the George Cross was a civilian medal, the civilian equivilent of the Victoria Cross,
The lad was a serving member of the armed forces,so why not the Victoria Cross?

[teeteringhead]

Drapes

From memory, a VC has to be in the face of the enemy , whereas the GC does not. The subtle difference is demonstrated on the wording on the crosses (which subtlety will appeal to aging pedants like thee and me): GC says "For Gallantry", while VC says "For Valour".
Another example of a (fairly) recent military GC was one awarded to a Bomb Disposal guy in Northern Ireland.

I've found some extracts from the regulations, from the Royal Warrants which govern the awards:

VC "It is ordained that the Cross shall only be awarded for most conspicuous bravery, or some daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy."

GC "It is ordained that the Cross shall be awarded only for acts of the greatest heroism or of the most conspicuous courage in circumstances of extreme danger, and that the Cross may be awarded posthumously."

"The Cross is intended primarily for civilians and award in Our military services is to be confined to actions for which purely military Honours are not normally granted."

Incidentally, these are the only two awards which have to go to HM herself for final approval.

[Background Noise]

Correct, Trooper Finney was awarded the GC because of his actions in a friendly fire incident - hence not 'in the presence of the enemy'. Same is true of DFC vs AFC, one is 'during active operations against the enemy' one is not.

Incidentally, I waded through the smokescreen of MOD PR and found the full list of awards HERE (http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/op_honours_31oct.htm) - there are links to the medals and to some of the citations.

[tony draper]

Thank you chaps, I understand the VC can also be awared to civilians and has indeed been in the past, but they have to be under military command at the time.
I was involved in a good thread about Military awards on another website, I came across a Victoria Cross website, that had a lot of facinating stuff on it, will see if I can find it again and post the URL.
I suppose it must have been a bit of a dilemma for the MOD concidering who the lads were under attack by.

[Pilgrim101]

You are thinking of the George Medal Tony, for better dressed and richer people :ok:

I got a set of six glasses at a Garage once :}

[Jackonicko]

Teeter,

Interesting! In the interests of completeness, I should add that the Royal Victorian Order is unique in being in the sole personal discretion of the sovereign, with no input from No.10 at all.

[teeteringhead]

Jacko

Yes, of course the RVO remains in the personal gift of the sovereign - I was referring to operational awards. For completeness and total decoration anorakism, each sovereign also has a personal order, restricted (I think) to Royal family members, maybe foreign royals as well, but they are all descended from Queen Vic anyway.

The ribbon of HMQ's personal order is (from memory) a sort of washed yellow silk, and the insignia a miniature portrait of HM. Pictures of Royals in full fig may show it more clearly. HM herself also wears the personal orders of her father (G VI RI) and - I think - grandfather (G V RI).

PS. I've found The Royal Family Order (http://www.medals.org.uk/united-kingdom/united-kingdom016.htm) . Seems it's only for Royal ladies, in addition to the sovereign.

[tony draper]

Found that website, see url below, praise be to Google.
This bit is interesting.

Although the Victoria Cross can only be bestowed for actions "in the presence of the enemy" from 1858 to 1881 an amendment allowed for awards "under circumstances of extreme danger". Six awards were made under these conditions - David BELL, James COOPER, Campbell DOUGLAS, William GRIFFITHS, Thomas MURPHY, and Timothy O'HEA.



http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/unusual.asp

I note the Victoria Cross can be taken off you if you go round stealing cows and such.

[teeteringhead]

Another unusual point about the VC is that it can be awarded for "Collective Gallantry", effectively on behalf of an entire unit. As the UK has no equivalent to the USA's "Unit Citation" (but I think Oz and NZ do), individuals can get a VC on behalf of their unit - voted for by their comrades!! I apologise for the long extract below, the rules are complex, but it seems easier than voting for a new Tory leader.......

"Collective gallantry. It is ordained that in the event of any unit of Our Naval, Military or Air Forces mentioned in the Sixth Clause of this Our Warrant, consisting in the case of a unit of Naval Forces of a squadron, flotilla or ship's company, or of a detached body of seamen or marines: or in the case of a unit of Military Forces of a regiment, squadron, battery or company, or of a detached body of soldiers; or in the case of a unit of Air Forces of a squadron or other body of airmen, having distinguished itself collectively by the performance of an act of heroic gallantry or daring in the presence of the enemy in such a way that the Flag, General, Air or other Officer in command of the Force to which such a unit belongs, is unable to single out any individual as specially pre-eminent in gallantry or daring, then one or more of the personnel comprising the unit shall be selected to be recommended to Us of the award of the Victoria Cross in the following manner:

(a) When the total personnel of the unit does not exceed 100, then one officer shall be selected for the Decoration by the officers engaged; and in like manner one warrant officer or petty officer or non-commissioned officer or leading rating of the unit shall be selected by the warrant officers, petty officers or non-commissioned officers or leading ratings engaged, and one seaman, marine, private soldier or aircraftman shall be selected by the seamen, marines, private soldiers or aircraftmen engaged;

(b) When the total personnel of the unit exceeds 100 but does not exceed 200 then the number of seamen, marines, private soldiers or aircraftmen to be selected in the manner described in (a) shall be increased to two;

(c) When the total personnel of the unit exceeds 200 in number, the number of Crosses to be awarded in accordance with these provisions shall be the subject of special consideration by one of Our Principal Secretaries of State or, in the case of any Member Country of the Commonwealth overseas, the appropriate Minister of State for the said Member Country, for submission to Us;

(d) The selection to be by secret ballot in such manner as shall be determined in accordance with the foregoing provisions by the Officer directing the selection to be made;

(e) The death of any person engaged shall not be a bar to his selection;

(f) Reference in this Clause to male members of any Forces shall be deemed to include the equivalent ranks of the Women's Auxiliary Services of such Forces;

(g) The names of the persons recommended in accordance with these provisions shall be submitted to Us in the manner laid down in the Eighth Clause of this Our Warrant."

... but I haven't found out yet any collective awards actually awarded.

PS I have now!

Collective VCs - none since WW1. Details on IWM website
here. (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/exhibits/ex-vc.htm)

And of course the GC has been awarded collectively twice: to Malta and to the RUC.

[tony draper]

Here you go Mr T, from that website.

The VC can be bestowed by ballot, when the act of gallantry has been performed by a body of men (forty-six have been awarded).

[moggie]

Who is George and why is he cross?

Seriously, is not the George Cross an honour that is available to all but is just the highest award available for civvies?

[tony draper]

Civilians can be awarded the Victoria Cross Moggie.

Five civilians have also been awarded the VC (while under military command) - James ADAMS, George CHICKEN, Thomas KAVANAGH, William McDONELL, and Ross MANGLES.

[Ali Barber]

Why does the "unkown American warrior" have a VC and not the British "unkown warrior", or was this a reciprocal thing with a Congressional Medal of Honour? I realise it is only a symbolic award as it was not gazetted. Not having a go at anyone, genuinely interested.

Just read the other link on VCs. The British "unkown warrior" in Westminster Abbey was conferred the Congressional Medal of Honour. I'm sure plenty of "unknowns" from both countries were deserving of each medal. RIP.

[Woff1965]

The Gloucesters were awarded a Presidential citation for their stand on the Imjin in 1951.

[tony draper]

Thats one of those trick quiz question, who is the only none American to be awarded the Congessional Medal Of Honour.
I'm afraid the CMOH doesn't have the same unsullied history as the Victoria Cross, it became very cheapened in the past, they became political awards, Buffalo Bill Cody was given one, officers were awarded them for signing up for a further stretch, all the officers who acompanied Lincolns coffin got one, stuff like that.
Eventually the Medal was rescued from its sorry state,loads of people had them withdrawn including old Buffalo Bill Cody.
Incidently five Americans have won the Victoria Cross, unlike the CMOH the VC can be awarded to foreigners.

[Unmissable]

The fact that it was a George Cross and not a VC (based on the fact that the heroic deed was under blue on blue fire) just goes to prove that the most dangerous force out there was the yanks.

[maninblack]

Teetering Head,

Thanks for that, my Grandfather was on board a ship awarded the VC in thse circumstances in WW1.....I only found out this year.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Either way, George or Victoria, the young lad thoroughly deserved it. Good to know the military can still produce guys with such values when most of his (civilian) contemporaries appear to be parasitic skateboarding hooligans contributing less to life than a London Postie.

[Ali Barber]

I have to agree that his youngster more than deserved his award, but I cannot see why they "split hairs" and made it a GC instead of a VC. It would seem from some of the posts that he could have been awarded a VC despite not being under "enemy fire". I know they are both equal awards in terms of the valour/gallantry involved, but as a military man the VC would be more appropriate and, for his fellow servicemen the ribbon would be more rapidly identifiable.

Another trivia question about the VC. For the US forces, I understand everyone has to salute a CMOH holder no matter what his rank. Does the same apply to the VC?

[ZH875]

I wonder if the awarded medal would have been different if the young man had pips on his shoulders.

Shame on the British Government and the MOD. The lad IS A HERO. I would certainly class any targeted fire as HOSTILE. NO fire is ever friendly.

It just proves that 'Smart', 'American' and 'Intelligence' may not be used in the same sentence.

[PPRuNe Pop]

It might be worth noting that an association was formed specifically for VC and GC holders. One association with no distinction, one from the other.

Yet, equally interesting to note is that the VC seems to have preference.

[Gainesy]

Ali,
I understand that used to be the case, not sure if it still is.

[tony draper]

By one of those spooky quirks of coincidence, there is a documentry about the history of the Victoria Cross, BBC2 9 pm, Tuesday, fronted by Jeremy (you either love him or hate him) Clarkson.


Me, I just likes the guy, :rolleyes:

[John (Gary) Cooper]

As an example of a George Cross (Posthumous) holder:

26 th March 1950

Aircraftsman Gillett, a fitter armourer, was a member of the groundcrew on board a Sunderland flying boat which blew up at its moorings at the RAF flying boat base Seletar on 26th March 1950. Rescue craft were quickly on the scene but the aircraft and a bomb scow alongside sank rapidly and survivors from the explosion were hurled into the water. A lifebelt was thrown to Aircraftsman Gillett from a rescue launch but he was seen to throw the lifebelt to a severely injured Corporal who was in danger of drowning near him. In the confusion, the rescuers had not been able to reach the Corporal. Gillett was a great friend of his and knew he was not a strong swimmer. The lifebelt kept the Corporal afloat until he was rescued unconscious from the water several minutes later. In the meantime, Aircraftsman Gillett disappeared and his body was washed ashore two days later. It was discovered that his body had suffered terrible superficial injuries and his death was due to the combined effects of blast and drowning. By his action in deliberately saving the life of his friend , whilst injured and in great danger himself, Aircraftsman Gillett displayed magnificent courage, extreme unselfishness in his last living moments which resulted in the sacrifice of his life to save another was seen in this act of great heroism which was in accordance with the highest traditions of the Royal Air Force.

[JohnB]

Recent civilian awards and history of the GC are at http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/gc_holders.htm

RAF awarded the GC during the Second War http://www.alliedairforcesmonument.org/GCawards.htm

[Ali Barber]

I for one would be more than happy to salute this youngster for what he did, but can't guarantee to recognise the GC ribbon. The VC on the other hand would have me instantly snapping to attention. Why do we (the Brits) find it hard to award "serious" gongs when they are obviously due (without wishing to demean in any way the value of the GC which is a serious gong in its own right).

[Tigger_Too]

In terms of collective awards, the GC was awarded to an entire island - Malta.

'With the coming of World War Two, it was inevitable that Malta would immediately find itself in the firing line. Less than 24 hours after Italy entered the war in June 1940, the first air-raids by the Italian Air Force occurred. Malta's position enabled her to strike at the Axis forces in the Mediterrenerean, disrupting their operations in North Africa and elsewhere. The ship repairing facilities were invaluable for the British Fleet.
Malta had to be defended but the early months saw much damage as the islands' air defences, initially composed of three Gloster Gladiator biplanes which the locals immediately christened Faith, Hope and Charity, were brought up to scratch with the inclusion of Hurricane and Spitfire fighters.
The air attacks increased. The Luftwaffe joined in. Over 1941 and 1942, 3000 raids occurred. The towns surrounding the industrial areas around the harbours took a fearful pounding, and much of the population was evacuated to the centre of the island. Thousands of the inhabitants and British defenders were killed and maimed. Malta was the most heavily bombed place on earth - proportionately more bombs fell than on the English industrial town of Coventry.
And as the convoys carrying precious supplies were attacked and sunk, the islands suffered the pangs of hunger and disease. By August 1942, the situation was desperate. The arrival of the battered remains of a convoy on the 15th of August was, as in a previous siege, ascribed by the inhabitants to a miracle interceded by the Virgin, on whose Feast of the Assumption it occurred.
Despite all the suffering, the inhabitants and the garrison held out. Once again, the eyes of the world were on Malta's struggle against a superior enemy. Once again, the tide turned in Malta'a favour. But not before King George VI made a gesture unique in history. On the 15th April, 1942 he awarded the George Cross to the Maltese Nation, an honour still proudly borne by the Maltese on their flag.
The scroll accompanying the medal reads "To honour her brave people I award the George Cross to the Island Fortress of Malta to bear witness to a heroism and devotion that will long be famous in history "'

[Flap62]

From the official citation,

He then climbed onto the fiercely burning vehicle, at the same time placing himself at risk from enemy fire

Seems like the chap deserves the purple ribbon to me.

[Maj T.J. 'King' Kong]

But what about this bloke:

On 8 September 1917 near Hill 60, Zwarteleen, Belgium, when excavating a trench, Sergeant Carmichael saw that a grenade had been unearthed and had started to burn. He immediately rushed to the spot shouting to his men to get clear, put his steel helmet over the grenade and then stood on the helmet. The grenade exploded and blew him out of the trench. He could have thrown the bomb out of the trench but realised that by doing so he would have endangered the lives of the men working on top. He was seriously injured.

Details:

http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/award.asp?vc=185

And he got the VC, even though although this was incredibly brave it doesn't seem to have involved the enemy. Mind you, doesn't say whether it was a Brit or German grenade...:hmm:

[I_stood_in_the_door]

interesting fact:

the most VCs awarded in a single battle/engagement were awarded at the battle for rourkes drift, 1879. no less than 11 VCs were awarded in one day. and we won.

however only 3 were awarded at the battle of islhandwana (?) earlier the same day. probably due to a lack of citations been written due to the fact that they got slaughtered!

front rank, FIRE!!

no doubt, all deserved and fearless men to the last.

do 'friendly' bullets not hurt as much?

isitd


:ok:

[tony draper]

Wasn't there a rumour that some of the chaps involved in that battle for the cave complex in Aghanistan, should have been given the VC?,
Gongs do seem to a lot more difficult to come by, perhaps only politicaly correct acts of heroism are concidered now.

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

Mr Clarkson wrote an article in the Sunday Times commenting on/publicising his forthcoming programme. The point he makes is that there seems to be an unwritten rule recently dictating that VCs will only be awarded posthumously.
Interesting angle

[tony draper]

Its only since 1920 that the VC could be awarded posthumously, before that you had to be able to collect it in person.

[I_stood_in_the_door]

how come col h jones got one in '82? wasn't that 'friendly fire'?

lead, follow but definitely get out of the f**cking way!

isitd

:ok:

[Thud_and_Blunder]

ISITD,

..Er, no - H was shot from an Argentine trench that was behind his right shoulder. Save up enough brownie points and you can go on one of HMs Battlefield Tours to see for yourself one day - the spot where he dropped is marked, as is the MG position.

[escapee]

Does anyone know what the AFC is awarded for? My ex boss got one and I would like to know why.:confused:

[John (Gary) Cooper]

Escapee

The Air Force Cross (AFC) is awarded to Officers and Warrant Officers for an act of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying but not engaged in active operations against an enemy and should not be undermined to its value. I have received information today of one such deed in 1953.

I shall remember those other heroes on Sunday at 1100hrs who never returned to tell their stories.

Lest we forget.......................

[teeteringhead]

Not just officers for AFCs (or DFCs) any more - political correctness a few years ago 1998-ish (???) saw to it that all ranks have got "Crosses" rather than "Medals".

Certainly some SAR sergeants have already have AFCs - and probably earned them a bit more than escapees' boss.

[John (Gary) Cooper]

.................and rightly so TTH.

[Muppet Leader]

Does anyone know the correct “official” wording use, to distinguish between which decoration is awarded?

I only ask, as after seeing the wonderful programme by Mr Clarkson the other night, he did mention one incident where the pilot of a seaplane pressed home an attack on a U-boat.
The sub was sunk, however the aircraft was badly damaged, and a number of the crew, including the pilot were badly wounded.
The pilot then flew for some time prior to making a landing closer to friendly forces, thereby saving not only the crew and airframe, but also himself. – And in so doing, he was not awarded a VC, as the act was not selfless!
Yet I looked on a couple of web sites today reading some of the citations of VC winners, (real siring stuff), and quite a few of them appeared to be acts, although immensely brave, of self-preservation.

I will salute them all on Sunday morning.

[JohnB]

Tony - you say that only since 1920 could the VC be awarded posthumously. Dont think that is correct because there are numerous posthumous awards made during the First war.

Capt Noel Chavesse was killed winning his second VC in Aug 1917. The award was gazetted in Sep 1917.

Amended to make apology...

Sorry Tony just read the bit on the Victoria Cross ref site about the posthumous awarding.

[Archimedes]

ML,

The pilot (John Cruickshank) did get the VC.

The comment appended by the Sec of State for War (I believe) pointed out that while it was true that there was an 'element' of self-preservation, the award of a VC was entirely appropriate.

I suspect that someone behind a desk had tried to say that the VC couldn't be awarded if the terms of the warrent were applied exactly, and the memo could be interpreted as whatever the 1944 equivalent of 'back in your box, sunshine' was.

I'm puzzled by the 1920 reference for a posthumous VC on the relevant site:

If you go to this (http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/award.asp?vc=1256) about Temp. Lt Robert Wain of the Tank Corps, you see that the VC winner was most definitely killed in the act that won him the medal. The site seems to imply that, officially it was impossible to receive a posthumous VC, but this was ignored. Or does it? :confused:

And as for the Medal of Honor, wasn't a gentleman from the Poole area recently awarded one for rescuing a CIA chap from the prison uprising in Afghanistan (where John Walker Lind was captured)? Sure I saw something about it in the press.

[SaturnV]

Woff1965, a Presidential Unit Citation has been awarded to the First Marine Expeditionary Force for its drive from Kuwait to Baghdad.

The Citation is also being awarded to the following British military units, noting that the "ACCEPTANCE, RETENTION AND DISPLAY OF THIS AWARD ARE FUNCTIONS OF BRITISH LAW AND REGULATION"

1ST (UK) ARMOURED DIVISION (-)(REIN)
7TH ARMORED BRIGADE
1ST BATTALION THE BLACK WATCH
1ST BATTALION THE ROYAL REGIMENT OF FUSILIERS
THE ROYAL SCOTS DRAGOON GUARDS
2D ROYAL TANK REGIMENT
3D REGIMENT ROYAL HORSE ARTILLERY
32 ENGINEER REGIMENT
16TH AIR ASSAULT BRIGADE
1ST BATTALION THE PARACHUTE REGIMENT
3D BATTALION THE PARACHUTE REGIMENT
1ST BATTALION THE ROYAL IRISH REGIMENT
7TH PARACHUTE REGIMENT ROYAL HORSE ARTILLERY
3D COMMANDO BRIGADE (-)
40 COMMANDO GROUP
42 COMMANDO GROUP
29 COMMANDO REGIMENT ROYAL ARTILLERY