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flyblue
29th Oct 2003, 15:20
Baggage woes jam Italy's air hubs
Complaints mushroom over airports in Milan and Rome

By Elisabetta Povoledo/IHT (IHT)
Tuesday, October 21, 2003


MILAN: Ask any frequent flier to Italy about travel confusion and be prepared for epic narrations making Ulysses' travels to the peninsula seem like a stroll in the park.

Recently, complaints have targeted Italy's two principal hubs - Rome's Leonardo da Vinci airport at Fiumicino and Milan's Malpensa airport, which together account for more than 60 percent of Italy's air traffic - and in particular their baggage-handling services.

"This year has been dramatic with respect to past years," said Vincenzo Donvito, the president of ADUC, a consumers rights group. "We've had twice as many complaints." To him, the Fiumicino airport is "the hub from hell."

Telefono Blu, an advocacy group for Italian passengers, reported that over the summer it had received at least 6,000 complaints about lost or delayed luggage, nearly two-thirds of them during the peak period from July 20 to Aug. 20. Of the complaints, 21 percent referred to Fiumicino and 22 percent to Malpensa.

Just last month, the Milan hub dismissed 18 of 29 baggage handlers arrested in August 2002 after closed-circuit cameras had recorded employees breaking into suitcases in the airport's cargo area and then auctioning off pilfered goods. (The other 11 handlers had resigned.)

A spokeswoman for SEA, the company that manages the airport, said that this isolated incident involving "a handful of dishonest employees" should not reflect on Malpensa's overall efficiency, which she said received high marks in client surveys.

Baggage-handling operations have become more complicated since Jan. 1 of this year, when anti-terrorism measures went into effect requiring that all luggage be X-rayed, she said. She said that passengers on indirect flights with short transfer times were most likely to be affected.

David Henderson, the information manager at the Brussels-based Association of European Airlines, said passenger hubs were "particularly vulnerable" to baggage delays. In the association's consumer report for August, the most recent available, Alitalia, Italy's national carrier, reported a missing-baggage ratio of 46.7 per 1,000, putting it at the bottom of the 26-airline ranking. The airline with the second-worst record was KLM, with a ratio of 29.4 per 1000.

A 1999 European Union directive that was put into effect at Fiumicino and Malpensa in the summer of 2002, which required the liberalization of runway services in Italian airports - including baggage-handling operations - also seems to have had an effect, not necessarily for the better.

"Things have gotten worse," said Nives Annarumma, a spokeswoman for Air France in Rome. "All the airline companies are working with Rome Airports and the Italian Board of Airline Representatives to determine what the problem is and sort it out."

Claudio Balzarini, the president of the airline representatives' board, described problems at Fiumicino as "chronic" and blamed the airport's infrastructure.

At the international terminal, for example, the baggage-handling services are too far from the passenger terminal, aggravating inefficiencies. He said the board had kept up a steady pressure on Rome Airports, which operates both facilities, to improve the situation, but that it was "unsatisfied with results so far."

He added, "Liberalizing should have improved the service, not made it worse."

Riccardo Raimondi, the central director of aeronautical activities for Rome Airports, said that dividing runway services among three companies - ADR Handling, Alitalia Airport and EAS European Avia Service - had led to a new coordination and organization of the baggage-handling services.

Raimondi said that Rome Airports, along with an ad hoc working group, was monitoring and controlling the situation in compliance with the European Union's passenger charter, which Italy was the first to adopt. Complaints were regularly passed on to the handlers, he said, but the company could take no legal action.

By next summer, there should be a marked improvement in the situation at Fiumicino when a new installation for handling transit luggage becomes operational. But industry analysts say that in general, Italy's airports have serious deficiencies that slow many improvements.

"For years the importance of having better-quality infrastructures was underestimated, and some airports are burdened with technical difficulties like short runways," said David Jarach, a consultant and professor of air transportation marketing at the SDA Bocconi School of Business in Milan.

"But we also have to consider that in many cases the competence of managers at Italian airports had been lower than average because they were often political appointments."

Jarach said habits that developed when monopolies prevailed were hard to shake.

"This is typical of the Italian way, which makes the error of ignoring the concept of client satisfaction," he said. "A cultural revolution is necessary, but it's been slow in coming."

He added that the emergence of low-cost carriers had stimulated some competition but that an "ancien régime" attitude still prevailed.

International Herald Tribune

Henry VIII
29th Oct 2003, 21:46
Flyblue,
before you continue to indicate other countries situations and/or problems, I remind you a couple of things :

- In France almost all the company use operational documentations only in french language and this cause the impossibility for an expat pilot to apply to be engaged. This is on the opposite side about the JAA spirit and against the situation you can find everywhere out of France.

- In France the local pilots use french language as soon as the cross the boundary. As you know this situation caused. and can cause, hard safety problems in congested area and/or in low visibility ops.

You are the french forum moderator, and from a moderator I expect more respect to all of us.

Please watch inside yourself, before.

Henry

Lupin
29th Oct 2003, 23:26
Did you ever flown over Corse from the peninsula to Sardinia? As soon in contact with Marseille Control it's quite impossible to recognize traffic informations 'cause all the transmission are in French! Only the forniners speaks english which, is a metter of fact, must be mandatory for all the messeges.

So please, pay careful about the trouble of your country instead of thinking about the baggages in Malpensa.
After all you are a moderator: I expected a lot more of responsability from you.

A JAA pilot!

flyblue
30th Oct 2003, 00:14
Folks,

Just a couple of things.
1) I was reading the Herald Tribune, a newspaper I rather like the other day : I found that article regarding Italian matter, so I thought it would be of some interest on the Italian Forum. Looked for it on the web and posted it. Because I thought that someone might like to read about what's going on in Italy. After all that's the reason why we all pprune, isn't it? And whenever I find similar articles about France, I do post it indeed. I believe information is our aim, flattering or not.
2)Errr... I'm not French.

Baci da Malpensa ;)

hey, psst! Look down there...see? Says "From: Europe". And that's what I am, and feel: European :ok:

Xenia
30th Oct 2003, 01:26
Oooops ....
Dear Flyblue,
I am afraid your "baci" have been lost in MXP :\ It seems to be that, somehow, they ended up in Bilbao :suspect:
Hopefully they'll be back soon!!!
Love
Xenia :E

Henry VIII
30th Oct 2003, 01:59
Flyblue,
if the information is your goal I wait to see in italian forum news about the possibility to be considered in Aeropostale, Regional, Aeris, Air Littoral and all the other french company.

I am a pilot, and PPRUNE means Professional Pilot Rumors Network. May be you are interested to build up an APRUNE web site (Airline Passengers RUmors Network)

Henry

flyblue
30th Oct 2003, 02:38
Henry

I told you I am not French, but feel free to keep ranting on the subject if that makes you feel better and are decided not to take into consideration what I already explained in my previous post about my motives.

Concerning pprune's publishing line, let's (gladly by me) agree to differ.

Saluti,

flyblue

Speevy
30th Oct 2003, 05:54
Hey guys cool down, I see Flyblue's point, come on why we should be so blind and deny what he said.
We all heard about this complaints!
It's true a lot of things here in Italy could be better (Baggages maybe it's the last in my list!!).
Just think about all the problem that ENAC is having to get the JAA mutual agreement approved!!
We should all take his point and learn something from it:


Next time you fly carry only your handbaggage. :D

P.S. I am Italian 100%

Henry VIII
30th Oct 2003, 08:14
Flyblue,
I have no time to rant about non sense arguments.

Each one of us is free to write pages and pages about the airports problems as lost and found, car parking, taxi fee, bar price list, distance to city center, political management of the aviation system, trolley to be paid or not, higway connections etc. etc. etc.

My opinion remains that all above arguments are out of the "publishing line" of PPRuNe.

May be you have time to lose.

Henry

pinguino
30th Oct 2003, 19:27
henry,
non capisco proprio il tuo atteggiamento nei confronti di flyblue. Ha semplicemente riportato testualmente un articolo di un giornale senza aggiungere nessu commento da parte sua, non una virgola o uno smile che poteesse far capire quale sia il suo pensiero riguardo l'argomento. Non vedo proprio quindi da dove derivi questa tua ostilita' nei confornti di flyblue per non parlare dei francesi che sono stati tirati in ballo senza nessun motivo. Per quanto riguarda l'attinenza o meno di certi argomenti in questo forum: se un topic non ti interessa sei libero di non leggerlo e di non prendervi parte.

Lupin
lo stesso vale per te, con l'attenuante che almeno non hai continuato. Forse ti sei reso conto di aver male interpretato il post di flyblue.

speriamo che flyblu continui a partecipare al forum italiano rendondolo un po' piu' "internazionale".

ciao a tutti

Speevy
31st Oct 2003, 04:26
Pinguino, sei un genio,
veramente, non c'è nessun sarcasmo!!

Flybue, I am sorry for the way my italian fellows attacked you.
Your post was very interesting and trust me there is no surprise from my side!!

Here in Italy everybody (exept some guys that had experience ouside this beutifull country!!) thinks that everytime somebody triyes to help improving the italian aviation situation, he is just trying to makes feel less important or less professional.
The point here is that they don't accept advises.

Henry
If you want to help the italian aviation, just look at places where higher standards have been met and look only at the good sides, nobody is perfect and for sure we can only learn from other's mistkes or advises

Henry VIII
31st Oct 2003, 04:49
Faccio un ultimo post in questo topic, altrimenti finiamo nel 2030.
Mi scuso per la lunghezza.
Allora :
- Leggo un post a riguardo dei casini per la gestione dei bagagli negli aeroporti italiani. Un argomento del genere non e' certo quello che mi aspetto in un forum per piloti (tu, da moderatore, dovresti saperle queste cose), ma vabbe'.
- Poi vedo che colui che lo ha inserito e' il moderatore del forum francese, mi altero abbastanza (e mi altererei di nuovo senza rimorsi) perche' non accetto lezioni da pulpiti che non hanno molto da insegnare, se conosci almeno un po' le loro realta'.
Non mi pento di aver tirato in ballo i francesi, fino ad ora nessuno mi ha smentito su quello che ho scritto a riguardo di compagnie e fonia francesi.
Se permetti in un forum di piloti questi sono sicuramente aspetti priotitari rispetto ai lost and found. Aspetti quali la possibilita' di essere assunti o no, lo stato di salute delle compagnie, i contratti, gli stipendi, la qualita' della vita, etc.
Il fatto che il moderatore dei francesi non sia francese non altera il contenuto delle mie rimostranze.
- Mi viene risposto che lo scopo e' quello di fare informazione.
Io resto dell'idea che (scusatemi per il ripetermi) tali argomenti sono materia per Valerio Staffelli o altri specialisti del customer care e chiedo quindi che mi vengano fornite informazioni che realmente interessano le mie/nostre aspettative professionali.
- Al che flyblue si scalda un po dicendo che sbraito, etc. Forse non ha gradito il mio riferimento per il forum passeggeri, ma non e' colpa mia se non ha senso dell'humor.
- Nella relativa risposta ho semplicemente ricordato, e credo che tu sia d'accordo, che ognuno e' libero di scrivere quel che vuole. Capirai pero' che ci sono argomenti inerenti il forum ed altri no.
Se tu, moderatore di questo forum, consideri di interesse per il mondo dei piloti italiani la conoscenza di articoli di giornale su quello che ho citato provocatoriamente (lost and found, parcheggi, tariffe taxi, etc. etc.) sei ovviamente libero di incentivare a scrivere in materia.
Guarda che non c'e' bisogno di scomodare l'Herald Tribune. Un giorno si ed uno no un quotidiano italiano pubblica qualcosa a riguardo delle sconcezze nei ns. aeroporti. Vorra' dire che seppelliremo davanti a cumuli di queste notizie...
...che pero' non ci fanno capire bene cosa e' accaduto in Minerva e quali sono le possibilita' dei colleghi di non rimanere disoccupati.
Mi sono spiegato meglio adesso ???

Non ho ostilita' nei confronti di nessuno, mi aspetto che ognuno di noi scelga lo strumento adatto a seconda delle circostanze.

Ho "continuato" perche' non ho ricevuto risposte alle mie domande.

Per ultimo.
Fai un inchiesta per sapere se ai frequentatori di pprune italia interessa di piu' un articolo di giornale come quello apparso o qualche news a proposito di possibilita' di lavoro. In Italia o all'estero.
Se la maggioranza preferisce le news dei giornali, l'accettero' democraticamente e togliero' la mia presensa dal forum.
Se invece richiede l'altro genere di notizie, allora ti chiedo di intervenire quando appaiono argomenti fuori luogo.


Henry

Jetlegs
31st Oct 2003, 17:58
Henry, hight time you took a chill pill mate! You are taking yourself far too seriously here... mind your BP now, think of your next medical.

non e' certo quello che mi aspetto in un forum per piloti Your expectations are your own business, enjoy them. To try and impose them on others is rather arrogant though. Also, have a look at what the board's owner writes on the opening page of the forums, why don't you?

The PPRuNe community is made up of professional pilots and people from the thousands of other professions and trades that are all a part of one of the most exciting businesses in the world. If you have an interest in the business then you should be reading PPRuNe. After a while you will learn to sort out the 'wheat from the chaff'. The forums are moderated by a team of over 60 volunteers who are involved in the business and have some speciality knowledge of the subject area their forum covers. Our aim is to keep the content relevant and to stop the few troublemakers who are unable to learn 'netiquette' from turning some threads into flame wars.


Don't see him putting a limit on what subjects can be discussed here. But of course, he should have taken your expectations into account shouldn't he?

non accetto lezioni Unless you're the Head Honcho of the Italian Department Of Baggage Handling, I don't see anyone lecturing you mate. :p

non ha senso dell'humor Ok so you don't have the first clue about what's acceptable on PPRuNe and what's not. Well let me give you a small hint: personal insult says more about you than about the person you are trying to insult. Ever heard of the philosofy "Play the ball, not the player?" You should try it sometime.

che ognuno e' libero di scrivere quel che vuole Thank you for that Henry, such a relief!
ci sono argomenti inerenti il forum ed altri no Gee, and here I was thinking Pinguino was the moderator of the Italian forum. Silly me.....
chiedo quindi che mi vengano fornite informazioni You demand do you? What makes you think you can demand anything? You pay for this service? You own the board? You are such a big shot in International Aviation that people on these boards need to fullfill your demands? Hmmmm? Thought not.
Se la maggioranza preferisce le news dei giornali, l'accettero' democraticamente e togliero' la mia presensa dal forum Hen, ever heard of the expression "Drama Queen"? Take a deep breath and have a good laugh at your own antics. You'll see how much better you feel. Nobody's trying to get rid of you here as far as I can see. Stay or go as you please, this is not kindergarten.
Just go with the flow man.

Here are a few interesting things you can look up if you still think you are in a position to expect and demand anything from Pinguino & PPRuNe in general:

PPRuNe Forum Rules
Welcome to the Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

Enjoy your weekend! :ok:

pinguino
31st Oct 2003, 19:38
ok ragazzi io la chiuderei qui! ;)
mi pare che siamo tutti d'accordo nel dire che non vale proprio la pena di continuare in questa discussione, non sono certo cose cosi' importanti da meritarte ulteriori commenti! anche se ognuno rimane delle proprie idee, credo che nessuno voglia convincere nessuno. Come in tutte le comunita' ogni tanto capita qualche discussione, ma non per questo la comunita' si disgrega.
Quindi invito TUTTI a continuare ad usare il forum con la stessa "spensieratezza" di prima, ognuno di noi ha gia' abbastanza problemi, almeno qui cerchiamo di stare sereni!

ciao

techlog
31st Oct 2003, 22:17
Henry VIII

le tue affermazioni riguardo a quello che sarebbe di interesse per la vita professionale dei piloti mi hanno lasciato perplesso.
Le maggiori compagnie mondiali sono ormai arriate alla fase 3 del CRM, che è passato (in un aumentare della consapevolezza dell'integrazione delle forze) da Cockpit Resource Management a Crew Resource Management e infine Company Resource Management. Questo significa che c'è stata la presa di coscienza del fatto che un aereo non vola solo perché ci sono sopra i piloti, cos' come un corpo non vive solo perché il cuore batte. In un'era in cui la tecnica ha dato quasi il 100% di quello che può, ci si è resi conto che l'unica implementazione significativa poteva venire solo dall'integrazione delle varie professionalità che danno come risultato finale una compagnia aerea. Ecco come si è arrivati al CompanyRM. Le migliori compagnie stanno già tenendo corsi con piloti e AA/VV, piloti e personale di terra e di scalo per una migliore integrazione e comprensione ciascuno della professione e incarichi dell'altro.
Posso immaginare che tu sia molto giovane; però quanto affermi non mi fa pensare granché della tua preparazione di CRM. A me, in quanto Comandante, interessa e come di quello che avviene nel mio ambiente di lavoro, e non solo dei colleghi senza lavoro (che hanno peraltro tutta la mia solidarietà).
Jetlegs ricordandoci le linee guida del sito e dei Fora ha riportato la questione sui binari. Ma vorrei aggiungere che un Forum Italo-Italiano su argomenti puramente "piloteschi" rischierebbe di diventare un po' sterile se non auroreferenziale.
Infine, riconoscere di avere affrontato la questione in maniera se non altro affrettata (da quel che appare sei l'unico che abbia avuto l'impressione che riportare un articolo sugli aeroporti italiani significhi "dare lezioni") non potrebbe che dimostrare la tua maturità.

Saluti,

techlog