CASA Raids Meatbombers.

[QNIM]

Gday
Just been informed that CASA along with police have raided the meatbombers at Barwon Heads. They took away boxes of stuff, I wonder what they were looking for?
Cheers Q

[robair]

About time! thats if it is the person I am thinking of? I just hope the poor pilot he has working for him dosen't cop it.

[QNIM]

Gday Robair
I have little sympathy for the pilots that flew in the conditions that they have, and dropping through 8 8ths cloud, without regard for the safety and lives of other airspace users in the area. I feel sure the management won't be interested in their well being, but I'm sure the management will be very worried as will those responsible in the Australian Parachute Federation for not taking any action after receiving many incident reports and ignoring them. I personally witnessed them jumping through cloud last Saturday morning when the cloud base was broken at 700 ft and overcast at 2000 ft.
CASA should be applauded for their action
Cheers Q

[Dale Harris]

Sorry QNIM, If you think that the APF will do much you are mistaken. Unless there has been a complete turn about of their thinking and attitude.

[Spinnerhead]

I guess you must also have known what flight rules they were flying under. You would look a bit foolish with that statement if they were IFR!

[rs480]

Flying IFR is not the problem it's the idiot meatbombs jumping in IFR conditions.
Obviously you don't know the jumping reg's
Who looks foolish now?

[the wizard of auz]

Instrument Falling Rules, maybe? (yok yok yok, I crack me up) :} :D

[QNIM]

Gday Dale
It takes a certain type of person to take up the risks associated with meatbombing [rs480 must know some of them] I realise that but the total disregard by APF just proves that in this instance self regulation aint going work. With all that income coming from the operaters, it's like letting kindergarten kids take charge of the lolly shop.
Cheers Q

[Spinnerhead]

The only obvious thing is that I made absolutely no mention of dropping through cloud, but rather FLYING IFR.
Don't know how you managed to interpolate that. Perhaps your language skills require honing. :hmm:

[Travelling Toolbox]

Spinnerhead

Quote: The only obvious thing is that I made absolutely no mention of dropping through cloud, but rather FLYING IFR. Unquote

The only thing obvious here is that no one is talking about FLYING IFR in this thread, they are talking about dropping meatbombs through clouds.

Agree with rs480 on who looks foolish!

Contribute constructively on the bombing not the flight rules. :rolleyes:

[currawong]

Great. Another slanging match about meatbombing.

With the depth of knowledge put forward last time it is little wonder people are getting raided.

Even squeaky clean organisations can find it hard if the feds decide your sector of the industry needs a shake up.

Keep up the good work.

[Dale Harris]

Sorry QNIM, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. The APF, over the years , have attempted several times to deal with some alleged infractions of the rules by this operator, and some of them were simply jealousy and some were not. For several reasons, the matters that were fair dinkum, (and being in the industry for some time I was present at one), nothing came of any of them. maybe that was his good luck, maybe it was bad work of the APF's part. Sometimes, that's what happens when a self regulating organisation is "controlled" by the money it generates from it's own "membership" I know and have known several of the APF comittee, but just because one or two think something should be done doesn't mean the rest of the members do. The a/c you speak of however, may well have been operating on an IFR plan. There are/were approvals available for jumpers to enter and exit cloud on descent. I know not whether this operator has an approval for this. I would guess that the matters for which the police attended will have nothing to do with skydiving per se. They may well have simply been the means by which the APF conducted their business.

[QNIM]

Gday Spinner
I hope for your own sake you do not fly or god forbid fly for meatbombers. Your knowledge or lack of is quite astounding. I know it is very naughty of me to quote regulations because most meatbomb organisations say"whats that" we can't understand them as they interfere with our income.
Lets start with CAO Part 29.1 which deals with Parachute Operations
4.2 The pilot in command of the aircraft from which the parachute descent is made and each parachutist shall ensure that:
4.8 A parachute descent shall not be commenced unless
(a) meterological conditions are such that the dropping zone is clearly visible to each parachutist at the commencement of the Parachute descent.
It then goes on to say that the parachutist must not enter cloud.
I see this as the pilots responsibilty to see that the above are complyed with or he/she is liable for prosecution.
Your Call
Cheers Q

[HAPPYCHIEF]

Sorry QNIM but you are quoting rules that no longer exist.
CAO 29.1 was repealed a while back now.
Cheers HC

[grrowler]

And what's the go with bombers dropping from FL140 with no oxygen? Maybe I've misread the rules, or there is a special dispo for this? If not, it is yet another blatent disregard of rules.

I worked (very briefly) for a parachute mob, and along with talking to other ex-meatbombers, know that these companies are the dodgiest operations around. Not to mention the exploitation of very low hour pilots.

When will CASA actually get real and do something to sort this crap out? :yuk:

[QNIM]

Gday Happy
You can't be as your name suggests if you work for meatbombers, thanks for the info I bow my head to you, the copy I have is over 12 months old, but isn't the meaning still the same.
Gday Growler
Yes they normally do have dispensation to climb above 10,000 ft, the short time above that height doesn't reduce performance to any great degree. In answer to your second part, I think you judged them very fairly.
Cheers Q

[QNIM]

Gday Dale
As of three weeks ago one of those so called professional officials from the APF advised me among a number of airspace users that no Skydiving orginisation in Australia had approval to drop through cloud then why do they continue allow these idiots to operate. I can only assume it comes back to the almighty dollar and stuff the rest of us airspace users safety
Cheers Q

[rs480]

For those in doubt about the reg's on dickheads dropping through cloud go to the APF web site and read the APF Operational Regulations 3rd March 2003 5.24 and 5.24A
The idiots in this case have applied for but DO NOT have approval to enter cloud.
By the way Spinnerhead no one said you mentioned dropping through cloud.
Now what was it you said about language skills requiring honing? (Get your mum to help)

rs480

[QNIM]

Gday
Got some luvely photo's of them dropping through 8 8ths grey last Sunday, seems they will only learn when closed down
Q :yuk:

[kiki]

are they closed down????
I heard once that it was one of Vic's if not austrialias busiest dz's.
Having said that still gotta follow rulz

[Mad Mick]

This operator needs to be closed down fast!!!!!!!

[TNB]

the pilot involved in this situation is definately not at fault! i can assure you all he is an IFR driver (with about 6000 hrs!!) so there is no issue with respect to the aircraft punching up through cloud.

with the clowns in the back however it is a different story! yes it is up to the pilot to get them up there.... but it is their decision to exit.

the art of "spotting" (the jumpers deciding, after accounting for wind strength, where to exit) which is taught to all student jumpers is quickly being forgotten.

too many jumpers are relying on the GPS spot from the pilot (even on blue sky days).

it is the jumpers who are breaking the rules in this case....

[Islander Jock]

the pilot involved in this situation is definately not at fault! i can assure you all he is an IFR driver (with about 6000 hrs!!) so there is no issue with respect to the aircraft punching up through cloud.

There certainly is an issue if the aircraft is not certified IFR category and no IFR flight plan lodged. Many of the jump aircraft with door off approval have a VFR only restriction in the flight manual. Very few of those same aircraft are ever maintained IFR cat.

I seem to recall at some stage that PJE ops, unless specific approval otherwise was given, were to be conducted under VFR. Not sure whether this was covered under a relevant CAR or within the APF operations manual. Can anyone out there clarify that point?

[QNIM]

Gday TNB
Can I ask you, what the letters PIC stand for?
Cheers Q

[TNB]

Gday Islander Jock.....
the organisation (and pilot) concerned use a cresco and a 206 that are both IFR and both of which having doors that are open and closed by the pilot (technically not a door off operation).... and they have naips to file plans....

you are correct in stating that PJE must be conducted in VFR.... but as far as i know there is no stipulation on the climb being conducted in IFR (yes i know it defeats the purpose to climb IFR because it then means that the jumpers will be going through cloud!)


and to QNIM....
i'd like 2 ask what you PIC comment was regarding? if it's about the pilot being responsible for the jumpers then i point you towards APF Operational Regulation 5.2.20, which states....

"Responsibility for authorising parachutists to exit the aircraft is vested in the parachutist who "spots" aircraft by directing it to the exit point.

it seems to me you have an axe to grind.....

[marreeman]

TNB i dont believe that the APF has any control over pilots, however casa does & In case you are wondering AIP ENR5.5(2) & From memory Cao 29.1 Car 152 has some info on this. I would love to know how many parachutists actually spot the a/c these days even in 8/8 blue let alone how they do this with 8/8 cloud. Why do we always have pilots sticking up for these rouge operators could it be that some are actually skydivers trying to be pilots as well & are actually thinking with their skydive brain engaged. Seems that we will only learn when we have an accident related to jumping through cloud or a non rated ifr pilot looses it & spuds it in with a full load of tandem passengers heaven forbid, wont the media have a field day then.

[QNIM]

Gday TND
Pilot In Command
The CASA rules applying to pilots, lift driving for meatbombs. AIP ENR 5.5-4/ 2.1.1 states [Parachutist must not be dropped if descent will will result in their entry into cloud] The AIP's are not designed for Parachutists but the person in command, piloting the aircraft from which they drop.
I did not complain about the IFR flying operations only the fact that the fools were dropping through cloud and that the pilot will be held responsible.
As for having an axe to grind you are not wrong these fools endanger the lives of myself, my passengers, my students and all other airspace users in the area.
Thanks for your input, if just a little misguided, only time will tell, but I feel the noose is getting tighter.
Cheers Q :ok:

[QNIM]

Gday Parablues
Are we on the same planet?
Q :confused: :confused:

[TNB]

mareeman i agree with you entirely!! sounds like you might have done a little jump flying in your time???

yes unfortunately the clowns in the back (even on 8/8ths blue days) rely on the driver to tell them where to go. and if they land anywhere other than where they're supposed to, trust me, they blame the driver!!!

and unfortunately again.... the media will have a field day with any skydiving accident, as they always have.... the drop zone or the conditions involved will not really have an impact....

mareeman despite what you may think.... i'm not a skydiver!!! although i must admit i know the industry too well as i've been around it for far too long (and well before my aviation career started)!!!! and i can also add that some pilots make excellent skydivers as well as some pilots making excellent skydivers!!!!

i hope noone is accusing me of sticking up for the operator because i too don't agree with what they're doing, i'm only sticking up for the pilot in this case, who some people have tried to drag through the mud for no good reason....

qnim i guess we might agree to disagree?! what we are saying are essentially the same thing (jumpers shall not exit if it results in descent through cloud). i guess it comes to APF regs versus CASA regs??

cheers!!

PS - parablues...... what the?!

okay okay.... before anyone arks up about it.....


some pilots make excellent skydivers...... and some skydivers make excellent pilots!!!


cheers!

:ok:

[QNIM]

Gday TNB
In court I think the CASA regs will hold up much better. The pilot better get him or her- self a bloody good lawyer as they will have an awfull lot of evidence against them.
Cheers Q :=

[Gravox]

Close them down!!!
I have worked for many skydive operators in my time flying everything up to Navajos. And they are all a bad as each other. I just hope that CASA will continue raiding skydive operators. These guys must improve their safety of operation. Jumping through 8/8th cloud is common practise, and unfortunately as a young pilot if you say "no" you'll be out of a job quick smart.

A particular skydive company up north qld admitted to flying aircraft without a MR, and paying pilots to under write the hours flown on the MR, and all they got was a small fine, and a slap on the hand. What a joke. CASA need to come down hard on these operators and make them realise that they must also operator to the rules and regs.

[stratoliner]

IFR PJE, what a joke! Its done anyway, thing is CASA has no real intention to do anything about it.

In my time Ive seen many keen drivers BEG for hours doing PJE, so they can then go "up north" etc. When they have accumulated what they wanted, THEN they bag the whole PJE community for doing the naughty thing. Some people that posted here (I know who they are), and I remember THEM flying IFR, and doing other things like running out of fuel, drinking lots the night before a long day, etc. Now they call for closing them down! Something out of balance here.

PILOTS, safety is in you hands, you decide what is done in your aircraft.

By the way, I believe jumping through IFR can be done safely enough. Use a Navajo or the like, a TSO c129 GPS, an IFR pilot, an IFR approved Jump Zone, put a flight plan in, pay the dues, pay the pilot please....like they are going to do it that way!!

Im afraid nothing has changed in 20 years!!



:yuk:

[marreeman]

TNB yes ive done a bit of meat bombing in my time. My apologies for implying that you are a skydiver but I feel that most of the time a post is made like yours TNB that it is a skydiver, like i have said in previous posts not all skydivers have their heads in the clouds so to speak just 90% of them. I do know some jumpers that have become pilots & good ones at that some have learnt the hard way by punching the soup & getting into trouble needless to say that they havent made this mistake again!

I hear what your saying in regards to the pilot TNB however I do agree with Qnim the pilot in command is ultimately responsable for letting the jumpers get out like it or not & personally I prefer not.

Gravox im tending to side with you here, I thought a few DZ would be reputable but im starting to really question that. Pilots are always the problem :sad: you would be compared to the last pilot that would punch cloud if you say no & told ah well we will get someone else that will.

Casa will bust the pilots balls & legitimate charter companies if caught for any miniscure thing that is done wrong but parachute companies can do no wrong WAKE UP CASA!

I think the sooner that people not just pilots but the public & casa are aware of how this industry operates then the sooner it could become a clean industry that a pilot could make a half decent living off. If the operators arent doing anything wrong & look after the pilot, because without the pilot you dont have any way of getting up! then you will have nothing to worry about.

Just a quick last point to illustrate what sort of weather some of these people will get out in im currently looking through issue 16-2003 of the australian skydiver magazine & on page 33 is a photo of a couple of skydivers with bloodied faces from hail damage how could this happen if the weather was not rat **** when they got out considering air time for these people would be under 3 minutes.

[QNIM]

Gday marreeman
I loves your work.
Cheers Q :O

[Cinders]

Qnim,

Your profile shows you as a Flight Instructor, and one of your posts claims you have photos from Barwon. Is it possible you work for a Barwon based aviaton firm other than the skydivers?

C.

[QNIM]

Gday Cinders
In answer to your question.
Maybe then again maybe not.
But the actions of both meatbombing operations in the area do pose a risk to me and my pax. I now carry a camera all the time.
Cheers Q

[QNIM]

Gday All

The Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal has upheld the councils ruling that the property owned by the meatbombers must not used by them for their operations, and remain rural. This means all the illegal buildings/caravans must be removed.
The main reason given was for aviation based safety.
As a result of the hearing the Principle of the meatbombing orginisation is facing contempt of court charge for threatening a witness in the hearing room.
Some people just never learn.
Cheers Q :ok: :p :O

[scrambler]

Has anyone considered checking the current regulations on Parachuting through cloud??????????

I know a CAAP is only an advisory but check this out, it may help to clear some things up

http://www.casa.gov.au/download/CAAPs/ops/152_1.pdf

And no I never have flown meat bombing.

[QNIM]

Gday Scrambler
Thanks for the post :ok:
But as was previously posted a senior member of the Parachute Federation of Australia Mr Graeme Windsor At a meeting several weeks ago at the Geelong Aero Club rooms at Barwon Heads airfield, Stated " That no Skydiving orginisation in Australia had authorisation to descend through cloud".
Then why Do they continue to allow them to operate?
I go back to previous posting.It's like letting kindergarten kids control the lolly shop.
They were dropping through cloud again today.
Cheers Q :*

[C.A.]

Hi L(QNIM).
You are getting enjoyment out of all this eh? If you are trying to make about 30 people lose their jobs and happy about it, good luck! And you know as well as the rest of us that even if the operator was to be closed down they would just open up somewhere else and continue as if nothing has happened. Saying that if youve got good pics then set up a website like every other person in the place and show us all. Hope you got some of the boobie shots as well to keep everyone else interested.

Everyone knows that nothing much will happen to the skydive operators as the main two organisations in this, CASA and the APF have too much to gain from all the skydive operators. If they knuckle down on one they have to do it to all. This makes no money. Its a shame as i do partly agree with some of your points and someone has to go in with a clean rag and polish all these places up a bit.

And the pilot, well if they want to give him a slap on the wrist, Im sure they will. And as you said he's in command but he can only get them there and offer them the lollies. They still have to take them. I dont know about your flying or eyesight capabilities but whenever im directly overhead something i sure as hell cant see it. (When will they start making Xray goggles so our nights out on the town will be so much more interesting.) So the driver has to make a rough judgement on his way up if there will be a hole to see the landing spot. And its not a vfr hole its just a hole which, by the rules, can be as big as the person jumping. Thats not a real big gap is it. And unfortunately you cant really even see them from the ground looking onto a light coloured background. If they say they can see one, how is he to argue. Its their responsibility, in the end. Although I agree it should be all fixed up and tightened as the industry still has a large amount of cowboys, as proven by the fish shop accident, but the pilot in this case is a quality veteran and knows exactly how to get it done safely and within the rules. And im sure you agree a hell of a nice guy!

So lets see what comes out of the wash but i dont think they will be washing with a flood and starting again with a clean slate like you and BH would like. As per usual with government based agencies, i think things will just be patched up and given a new gloss. But you never know in a big city.

Keep it safe and dont take your hands off the wheel to take photos as it may be you causing the accidents and we dont want that.

Safe flying mate.

[Cinders]

Qnim,

You were "brave" enough to start the topic. You were "brave" enough to make specific accusations. You were "brave" enough to name specific names.

You're not "brave" enough to admit if you work at the place in question?

I didn't ask you to get all "brave" and name yourself, just let us know if you're actually an interested party grinding an axe?

C.

[tobzalp]

Are we talking abour GCR here?

Just wondering what happened to VH-END?

[Manwell]

Gentlemen, the thought of unleashing the CASA dogs on those we despise does seem attractive at times, at least until we become their quarry....

Personally, I don't particularly care about whatever the "meatbombers" do, in fact I only logged on to find out if you were referring to helicopter musterers. Gee, I'm from Queensland... I don't fly with them, or for them though.

However, I don't think you guys would really like to live in a police state, and that is the inevitable result of the sort of vindictive self-righteous grandstanding that is being displayed here, and on other forums.

The most disappointing thing about it all is that Aussies seem to be the masters of the game. Probably due to the extremely small industry here, resulting in very limited career opportunities, hence leading to bitter and twisted players.

Lighten up guys, Life's a bitch,.... but then you fly!

We are priveleged.

[rs480]

QNIM

Here is something else to think about

CASA Instrument 278/97 3.3.1 Conflicting Traffic
The pilot in command of a private parachute aircraft must not allow parachutists to exit the aircraft if he or she is notified, or becomes aware, that there is conflicting traffic in the airspace in which the descents will be conducted.

The APF Descent Definition
A parachute descent, being the time from when the parachutist exits the aircraft until the parachutist lands.

My Interpretation
If the drop zone is located on an airport and the pilot in command of the parachute aircraft is notified or becomes aware there is an aircraft in the circuit pattern or between the exit point and the drop zone he must not allow parachutists exit the aircraft.

The Barwon Heads Airport drop zones are within 100 meters from both the N/S and the E/W runways and even closer to the taxiway therefore any aircraft in the circuit area would be CONFLICTING TRAFFIC.

By the way I would watch my step if I were you I think Cinders fancies YOU

Manwell

Life is a bitch but it is a bigger bitch when you fly amongst meatbombs

[C.A.]

Manwell
You dont know how right you are.
The only times i have gone on to this gossip pool is to remind people we are on the same team. How quickly they forget. Its a shame as we could be a really top bunch of people, instead we are known as a bunch of sulking whinging tossers who have nothing better to do than get everyone else in trouble to try to make ourselves look better. Oh well. Thats how it happens i suppose.

Come on guys, stick together! We have a great job, no matter who its for(as long as we do get paid. If you are not getting cash, dont do it. It screws it up for everyone else along the line) with the worlds best view! Lets not screw it up!

Take care chaps.

CA

[QNIM]

Gday Manwell
With out Laws and someone policing them all we have is Anarchy, wouldn't you agree.
If I break the rules particularly if it causes risk to life or property, I expect to be punished.

Gday C.A.
If trying to improve the safety of my work place makes me a tosser, so be it.

Gday rs480
As far as Cinders is concerned, I think you may be right. :O
Cheers Q :ok:

[rs480]

C.A.

You babble on about 30 people loosing their jobs & in the next sentence you say if closed down they will open up somewhere else. (We couldn’t be so lucky)
So who’s lost their job? it has only been relocated.
These people live like gypsies in old caravans illegally located on the operators land which have to be removed anyway councils ruling so what’s the problem?

You say the pilot is a good guy do you know he is reportedly a joint owner of the Cresco?
Puts a different light on things doesn’t it SAFETY COMPROMISED by a GREEDY OPERATOR & a GREEDY PILOT$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You and Manwell portray us as a bunch of sulking winging tossers & if that is because we promote SAFTEY instead of GREED you are right.

It is not only the SAFETY issues we have contend with at Barwon Heads how about

The Aero Club bunkhouse being broken into because the operator wanted to sleep 10 of his meat bombs for the night at $10.00 per head. Police notified.

A Flight Instructor head butted when he asked the operator to stop an unsafe practice. Police attended.

Pilots and aircraft and hangar owners told to F**K OFF you are not wanted on this airfield.

SAFETY barriers and level pegs removed from a hangar building site because the operator did not want the hangar built Police attended.

Private property damaged a star picket was rammed through the front of a pilots caravan which was on the airport Police attended.

The airport owners son threatened with a hammer by the operator because he was erecting a barrier which the operator did not want Police attended.

The airport owner (a middle aged woman) threatened by the operator (tough guy) over same incident Police attended.

Aero Club Members told they would have to pay a $40.00 landing fee because they had elected a President the operator didn’t approve of and he owned half the airport (the latter being a lie)
The list goes on its not only us that have had a gut full of this dipstick the cops have too.

But I don’t have to tell you and Manwell you are full of it “A”

Best thing you could do is sit down with QNIM & the BH you mention and get the full story not overheated crap from an overheated head in an overheated state.



Rs480
:ooh:

[Max Range]

Good topic QNIM - this has certainly brought a few polarised opinions out of the woodwork.
Some time back I was tracking to the west overlying YBRS at 2000' just under 8/8 cloud. I gave an overflying call entering the CTAF boundary at 3NM. Shortly after when I was about 1 mile to the east of the field, I heard a call advising that canopies had been dropped. I did not feel entirely safe to say the least, as they could easily have appeared straight out of the cloud right over me or directly in front of me.
I made a radio call asking the pilot (somewhat facetiously I admit) which hole he had dropped through and guess what - no answer. A subsequent CAIR about the matter drew a reply that there was nothing that could be done about it as it was private ops with little likelihood of a potential accident. Who agrees with that? Here's hoping that the regulators will finally do something to stop such potentially dangerous situations.

[Living End]

Hi all,

what an interesting thread this has turned out to be... The different sides of the story seemed to have unfolded and as usual opinions have run riot. I used to be a meat bomber, some of my finest experiance has been drawn from my dropping days.. I have worked up and down the coast even Barwon heads for a while. I must say this, not all DZ's are like this one and I have never been treated as bad as I did while flying for that mob.

Some things I think should be pointed out are... I personally would give a call on area and ctaf as to the position of the jumpers from the airfield and eta of them arriving on the ground 2 mins prior to exit. So anybody with a radio on on should know where to expect them. And I would still see small a/c blatting straight through the cicuit, without a squeak. The second is a porter can really make it back to the ground in 2 mins from 14000'. this is not pushing the limits or being a cowboy, its just what they can do (any porter pilot will tell you)

Finally there are some dodgy operators out there and I agree BH is one of them but most of them are generally ok.....
And for all the stressed out pilots waiting to be hit by a random meat bomb, try a skydive !!!! it clears the head .... cheers

[kerplunk]

Well, at least rs480 has finally got to the point that is really irking him and QNIM! This reeks of a tiny little local battle that some players are trying to blow up into a global war against meatbombers. If you have a problem with an individual, don't leap to conclusions that all skydivers are rule breaking 'fools' or 'idiots'. QNIM should perhaps take one hand off his camera and the other hand off his lap. Get his eyes away from his rule book and outside his metal box. We all love the sky, and there is plenty of it to share. Is safety really the concern here? Or is the vitriolic quoting of rules really just ammunition in a very bitter and personal dispute?
I've noticed that these people don't like being corrected or challenged on any point. Will the subject be changed again?

[stationaire]

C.A. - how right you are - if there are differences they should work it out themselves.

rs480's comments about conflicting traffic - surely the pilot can pipe up if he/she thinks that skydivers about to drop might be conflicting traffic - isn't that why they call a couple of minutes before dropping?

BTW, would QNIM be from the same commercial venture that sent a low time pilot out a few weeks ago in winds at BH that exceeded the demonstrated crosswind component? Didn't that plane then crash in wind shear on approach back to the field?

Hard to fly among the eagles when you throw so much mud about!

[C.A.]

Guys!
How this tends to keep going.
RS480, i agree, this all sounds like personal crap. And just remember to check your sources of info. A pilot halvies in a million dollar aircraft. Let me state that again. A GA Pilot halvies in a new turbine aircraft. He must be on some wicked wage! Probably more true that the guy needs the cash to support his family and is just glad to be working for a wage. Just like the rest of us, trying to get by in an industry full of tight arses! Nothing unusual there.
But it sounds like you guys know what you are talking about so i could be wrong. Apologies if i am.

Safety. Now theres an issue. If this was all about air safety it would be easy. You do not state one comment from the top that is based on the aircraft and flying. Everything is political and ground based. Sounds like theres a few enemies made on the ground down there. And i once heard it from the horses mouth that all complaints were made to oust the operator and if casa couldnt get the guy, you guys there would try to get the pilots in trouble. Good attitude. Lets wreck these kids chances when they are just trying to get hours and make it in the big time.

I agree with the first point though. I was wrong, but your aim still sounds as though it is trying to close the company down and if you are sucessful then wouldnt those people lose there jobs. It may start up somewhere else but wouldnt that take time? More pilots on the dole queue. How unusual.

Remember mate, stick up for your own. Maybe even try and offer these guys some real work that you know of, to get them out of the flying they are doing. If you are really that worried about their well being. Otherwise you ARE just another tosser just interested in themselves, dollars and no one else. Maybe instead of all this fuss you should take a good look at your morales and ideals and think outside the square (the square shaped thing in your back pocket)
Stay cool.

Safe flying.
CA

[Living End]

One thing I did forget to add in my last statement was... I did not have any run ins personaly with the BH flying club in my flying time at BH but I must say they, and this is a generalisation that they were one of the biggest bunch of political pilot wannabes just trying to sh!t stir the pot and not get on with the day ahead...

One final point if no one wanted the skydivers on the field why were they allowed to stay and rent it from the owners????? Money talks ..... blue skies

[rs480]

C.A.
The report on the Pilots share in the Cresco was in a full page spread in the Surf Coast News on the skydive operation put in by the operator.

I have written the facts as I know them and the only interest I have in this sorry saga is the SAFETY and WELL BEING of my fellow PILOTS.

I haven’t got a problem with anyone trying to get hours and make it in the big time as long as SAFETY takes priority over $$$$ but $$$$ seem to be a major priority with some of you Guys.

By the way C.A.you are a lucky chap being able to speak with horses maybe you will get a tip on a winner.



Living End
First you knock the operator then the aero club did you get on with anyone at BH or was every one else a wannabe except you???




Stationaire
Comments about conflicting traffic –
Pilots and the flight office have piped up when they were aware that skydivers were about to drop into conflicting traffic with a negative result.

To work out differences there must be communication and concessions on both sides, unfortunately to date this has not happened, but in working towards that end a SAFETY committee has been formed with representatives from all airport user groups and an AIRPORT SAFETY and OPERATIONAL PROCEDURE was set in place at a meeting Fri 28-11-03

If all operations adhere to these procedures SAFE flying should be the outcome.

Cheers
:ok:

Kerplunk
I haven’t leapt to the conclusion that all skydivers are rule breaking 'fools' or 'idiots' some from B.H. are members of the Aero club and my friends but there are those who are and maybe we have copped more than our share at B.H.

Or is it the operator and pilot don’t care what’s between these poor ******s and the ground when they tip them out and race down for the next load?

It’s not a matter of liking being corrected or challenged on any point its get it right no pipe dreams.

Puff on
:uhoh:

[QNIM]

Gday All

A little birdie tells me that the Australian Parachute Federation are having second thoughts about this operator, so we watch for further developments with interest.

Cheers Q
:ok:

[rs480]

Hi QNIM

Well up until now the silence on this thread has been deafening.
Then I heard the operator has a new pilot and this chap has been bitten by the CASA dog before so I guess it wont be long before it has another nip.

rs480
:E

[BackdoorBandit]

I think you two blokes ought to grow up and learn how to operate with somebody else on the field.
All this whingeing and whining and taking of photos etc. reeks of a vendetta to shut someone down just because you don't like them, or they don't fit into your personal ideal of what you think aviation should be.
Maybe the relevant authorities are not paying enough attention because they can see through all the BS.

[C.A.]

Where do you guys get your info? Havent read anything accurate for a while. Pilot still sure he doesnt own the plane and maybe he got a haircut and you think its someone else new on the field but spoke to him today and he was pretty sure he was flying. Do you guys actually fly or spend your time purely on the ground writing and whinging about the people who do?

Surf Coast news. Now thats a great source of info. Id trust that more often! What is it, some kind of local rag that gets delivered free to your door? Go and spend a dollar and get a real paper or even spend 30 cents and ring and ask the source.

Backdoorbandit. Youre obviously close to the area! Do they really go around video taping all the skydiving to try and prove cloud jumping from the ground! Come on kids, why not go and hide a video on the plane that will give you actual downward footage.

RS480. I picked a couple of winners on the weekend. It must have been your good thoughts. Thankyou so much. Owe you one.

CA.

[QNIM]

Gday All

I heard a reply message from the meatbombers lift driver to another aircraft inbound YBRS wanting to know where the jumpers were, “ they are still in the back and we are coming down”. That’s a first for five years that I am aware of. Why the change they have never let a bit of overcast cloud stop them before.

Cheers Q :O

[PROPSWINGA]

You guys have NO problems.....should come and watch the carry-ons at a little airfield 60nm south of Sydney.
Pairs takeoff...one behind the other...about 30' separation.
Straight-in approaches (regularly) with apposing traffic (regularly).
Jump buddies leg fell off (prosthetic) at 10000'....no report submitted.
Regularly take the troops aloft through 8/8th...aircraft damned lucky if it is NVFR let alone IFR (which it isn't).
Regularly fly until after dark....no airfield lighting.
Chutes dropped with an IFR aircraft established on the ILS which directly overflys the DZ.
Witnessed a pairs beat-up three weeks ago which was conducted with bother aircraft flat knacker, in formation (30' apart) at no more than 50' AGL.....now these are a couple of SMART cookies.
Continual complaints about noise and there generally unsafe operations has caused the local community to form an ACTION GROUP to shut them down PERMANENTLY despite the operator being the owner of the airfield and aircraft.
No amount of complaints to either CASA or the ATSB (over 30 complaints, all justified,) in the past 12 motnhs has caused one hickup in this operation......not because there is insufficient interest but because one aircraft owner/operator in the group is the son of a well-placed big-wig in the APF
:\
You guys reckon you got problems?:ok:

[rs480]

C.A

I was wrong it was the Surfcoast Living Magazine and the article was put in by the operator so I guess he treats the truth in the same way as the regulations with contempt.

Funny about the new pilot must have been a ghost in the R/H seat 3.00pm today. (That is the side they fly the Cresco from)

Backdoor Bandit

Obviously you haven’t read all this thread or you wouldn’t have spoken out of your backdoor because this is all about pilot safety.

:hmm:

[QNIM]

Gday Propswinga

You seem to know these people very well; you state that a prosthetic leg fell from 10,000 ft, is that all? Falling around this drop zone, boots, goggles, ripcords, altimeters, helmets, watches, camera lenses, rubber bands, drink bottles, drag chutes, and malfunction chutes. We seem to have missed the empty stubbies that are always left in the lift, All these items except he stubbies are held by the local land holders.
The adjacent locals have learnt before leaving the protection of a roof, look up it may save their life

You think I jest.

Cheers Q

[CurtissJenny]

And there I was just last Sunday, flying along minding my own business with the TSPDR chirping 1200 as I came up to BH, when suddenly, through the windscreen, I spy some four canopys on descent.
Took avasive action to avoid flying through or too close to them. Wonder what ever happened to checking with RAS and that old 'no drop' if RAS warn of traffic in close prox.
Hmmm.... that advice must have been so old that the new meat bomber had not heard of it..

Yes, another normal day at BH !

[BackdoorBandit]

rs480

I have indeed read this hole thread, and there is nothing in it to covince me it is about "Pilot Safety". It is all about pettiness and the inability of narrow minded whingers being able to get on with other airport users.

QNIM

Well I hope that the local land owners do the correct thing and attempt to return all those items to their rightful owners.

CurtisJenny

It sure is a good thing you were watching out for parachutists as you flew through that known parachute area on the weekend. Hope you didn't miss any drop warnings from the pilot, but of course you wouldn't have, they just didn't make any broadcasts!

[PROPSWINGA]

Backdoorbandit,

You can't be for real!? This whole thread is about pilot safety you f:mad: witt! CASA MUST get involved with the parachuting fraternity in this country BEFORE the entire show belongs squarely in the domain of the ATSB.....AFTER someone is killed!
The very least that anyone should be calling for is that parachuting be recognised as a commercial enterprise (which it bl**dy well is) and that it be subject to the same requirements as EVERY OTHER COMMERCIAL operator in the country....including the requirements to have a CP etc...and maybe then, maybe, a bit of professionalism and control might creep into this shoddy enterprise:\ Might just surpise some readers, but there are a few parachute organisations around that would welcome the introduction with open arms! They are the ones you DON'T read about on Pprune:ok: :E

[bonvol]

Well, I visit here rarely and read this thread with casual interest till my daughter rang from Barwon Heads and said she was going skydiving for the first time, if it was ok with me!

That was the end of that but she will want to go one day. Are there any "safe" meatbomb outfits in Australia? Jumping out of planes and "safe" dont seem to go together to me.

Cheers

[QNIM]

Gday Bonvol

Very wise move.
Probably the best way to find a safe operator, ring the local ambulance and inquire, how many times have they attended the dropzone in the last year.
I leave you to come to your own conclusions.


Gday BackdoorBandit

Do you attend the Sydney Mardigras? As your name would suggest.
Sorry couldn’t help myself.


Gday PROPSWINGA

Great to see a little support in regards to safety of all airspace users even if some with vested interests try to howl you down.

Gday SANTA

You know what I want for Chrissy, please just get rid of em. Then we all can have a safe Christmas.


TO ALL PPRUNERS DO HAVE A SAFE AND HAPPY FESTIVE SEASON

Cheers Q

[Boney]

QNIM

Yes there are some shonky operators out there, but there are plenty of good ones too.

Have a good Christmas and may I suggest you take a few weeks off work to relax man, even better, shout yourself a Tandem Skydive for Christmas.

"If driving a boat aint swimming, then driving an aeroplane aint flying"

Have a go at it - you might actually enjoy it!?

[BackdoorBandit]

PROPSWINGA

A rather aggressive response wouldn't you say? I hope you can keep your cool when it all turns to sh1t whilst airborne.

Sports parachutists are killing themselves at the rate of about 4 a year currently, what exactly do you mean AFTER somebody is killed?

Whilst I sympathise with the view that Tandem Operators should hold an AOC. The fact remains that parachutists are simply not being killed whilst inside aircraft and so there is no driving force to change the satus quo.

To suggest that any organisation would welcome the additional cost, and complications of an AOC to their organisation is absurd.


Bonvol

Go on, let your daughter have a skydive, the last time a tandem passenger died in Australia was back in the 80's when the tandem system was first being developed. They do however occasionally sustain leg injuries if they don't get their legs up for landing.


Dear Santa

I just want to see all those dangerous student pilots, weekend warriors, gays, and low time instructors out of our skies, so the rest of us can fly around in safety for Christmas.

P.S.
Try flying that dangerous contraption of yours anywhere near my sacred airspace, and I'll submit video and photographic evidence of all violations to the local council.

[rs480]

PROPSWINGA
I agree with you Backdoorbandit is a sandwich short of a picnic.:ok:


BackdoorBandit
So you read the “HOLE” thread.
Could that “HOLE” be related to another two, the empty “HOLE” between your ears and the “HOLE” you speak from and sit on????? :8


Bonvol
Take QNIM’S advise and I hear Torquay is ok.
:ok:

[QNIM]

Gday Backdoor

Well you would like to see and I quote
” I just want to see all those dangerous student pilots, weekend warriors, gays, and low time instructors out of our skies, so the rest of us can fly around in safety for Christmas.”

Lets start with dangerous student pilots.
You never held a student pilots licence, so you just appeared on the scene fully qualified?

If you have held or hold an instructor rating I bet it’s only a grade 3.

GAYS I asked that question earlier.

So lets ask SANTA that question again, and maybe it would apply to you.


Gday Boney

I have consulted my Dictionary as to the definition of FLYING and DIVING

FLYING, To move through the air on wings, to move through the air by force of wind or other propulsion, to journey through the air in an AIRCRAFT. Nothing about the glide ratio of a brick.

DIVING, To plunge headfirst. So falling with the aid of gravity at terminal velocity, sounds more like the glide ratio of a brick.
This is not flying

Cheers Q

[PROPSWINGA]

You appear to have selective hearing (reading)? I said the ATSB would eventually get involved meaning after there is a mid-air or a loss-off-control in cloud etc etc...... The loss of 4 dirt-darts per annum must be of concern (especially to those who fall into this category) but our concern is for the pilots who for whatever reason either put themselves in, or are PUT in, unneccessarily dangerous situations all in the name of the almighty $ (that I might add they NEVER see for themselves).
Let's cut the cr*p and get to the core of the problem....a FEW unscrupulous para operators demand pilots fly IFR in aircraft not equipped to do so, they force pilots to operate IFR when THEY are not rated, they drop DD's through 8/8ths absolutely oblivious to all the other users of the airspace (and much more) AND THEN cry foul when someone has the gall to say enough is enough.
The way I see it there are two solutions.....change nothing and let the pennies fall where they might OR get these operations under some form of control through the controlling authority...CASA (not the APF). The APF controls parachuting in this country...not their means of getting there!
Clowns such as yourself add absolutely nothing to a fair and reasonable debate over a serious problem that will eventually lead to unacceptable grief and heartache for 1 or many. This sometimes shoddy enterprise cannot be allowed to continue unchecked and unaccountable because THEIR actions directly affect many other airspace users AND WE HAVE A RIGHT to reduce those risks whenever and whereever possible or at the very least, to vigorously voice such concerns.:ok:

[Tinstaafl]

Backdoor...

Ignoring the location/operator issues for a moment, are you saying you support non-IFR aircraft &/or pilots flying through cloud? Or skydivers falling through it without approval from the regulatory authority?

What about loading, fuel reserves, maintenance & all the other items that pertain to safe & legal operation & are often described as....erm....lacking in some operations?

[utedrivingpilot]

QNIM please consult your dictionary further and look up the word life then precede to get one,, soon after which please go to nearest dropzone (probably Barwon Heads from tthe sounds) and watch some of the videos of the australian rep team like dixon,dougs,wildy,locky etc and tell me if they fly or not. I have personly witnessed these guys moving almost 2 miles accross the sky in under a minute furthermore it is a great sport which helps pilots build hours and keeps many australians employed.

In case you were wondering about these "idiots" that jump out of planes many have over 7000 jumps much of the time sitting next to the pilot and are basically operating crew equating to an unofficial 3500 hours how many do you have??? oh by the way they get paid about 90 bucks a jump with handicam now a days on average 4 jumps a day so 2160 dollaros a week for having a blast and pulling a handle please get a life and exercise caution whilst in the vicinity of a zropzone.

[QNIM]

Gday utedrivingpilot.

Just checked my dictionary as you suggest.

life, The quality that distinguishes animals and plants from dead bodies or inorganic matter.

Now isn't this thread all about preservation of the lives of all airspace users?

It just seems to get the hackles up from a few angry little people with vested interests.

My advice to you is just relax and enjoy the festive season. :ok:

Cheers Q

[rs480]

Utedrivingpilot

No problem with pilots building up hours or Australians being employed as long as it is conducted safely and within the regulations.
By the way where did you obtain your dictionary? I looked up “tthe and zropzone” in mine dammed if I can find either and as for dollaros it seems to be the only thing you people are interested in.:ooh:

PROPSWINGA

Dirt-darts I haven’t laughed so much for yonks “LOVE IT”
:D

[PROPSWINGA]

I might have missed something here, but did someone leave the front gate of Morrisset open....again....?:}

Utedrivingpilot......you are not serious in suggesting that because someone sits beside a pilot, facing backwards, without dual controls, and without ever having actually sat through a landing, that he could somehow be considered as operating crew and get to log the time 50/50?:* (Sorry, but I think you might have swallowed a bit of the dirty water at the bottom of the orchy bottle)
Then to suggest that this industry helps pilots get hours (agreed, in principle) and keeps many people employed? The term 'employed' usually means there is some form of renumeration for the work for which one is employed......that certainly isn't the case for most of the pilots as this very forum has discussed time and time again ad nauseum!

[ulm]

Seems to me that if these were reclassified as Commercial Ops, then you would need a CPL. That would drive two things:

1. Less cheap (free) pilots, thus more chance of wages.
2. An operators certificate (CASA are looking at that concept for joyflights to replace AOCs).
3. More to lose by breaking the rules, i.e your CPL and OpCert.
4. Safer PFE ops and thus less whinging about them on PPRuNe (but then , it is great entertainment :E )

Chuck.

[BackdoorBandit]

rs480

Top marks for picking up on my little play with words.


QNIM

Good to see how you picked up on the irony of my wish to Santa (not). However in my day to day flying, which involves flying more than 50 miles from my departure point, these are the groups that give me the most grief. To shut them down is of course quite ridiculous, you just have to learn how to deal with them. Oh and no, I don't hold an instructor rating.


PROPSWINGA

As aggressive as ever, but sorry I cannot read what you don't write. I cannot as yet mind read either. Now this is or at least was a thread about only one operation. An operation which by the sounds of it operates IFR aircraft with IFR pilots on IFR plans. Let's not get all choked up about the rest of the industry.


Tinstaafl


I do not support non-IFR aircraft or non-IFR pilots flying in cloud, however this does not seem to be the case at BH. As for all the other issues you mentioned, they are as in any operation up to the operator. I have worked for charter operations (AOC holders) that were much worse, to my disbelief, than some of the skydive operations I have witnessed and/or flown for.


P.S.

Had a little note put in my letter box. Apparently QNIM used to work for this operator, but got the flick because he wasn't all that crash hot. Hope this isn't just a big gripe, I'm sure he will tell us all it isn't, and how he actually quit, and that he is only interested in pilot safety. Then again I could be wrong.

[bongo driver]

As far as CASA will be concerned, the most important thing they are looking for is DUTY OF CARE.

This extends, regardless of operation classification, to all aspects and person involved with the operation of an aircraft. Both commercial, aerial work, or private.

Duty of care is a big phrase. It covers the responsibility of the Pilot, The Parachutist, The refueller, The Operator, The Engineer etc. etc. The duty of care on the Pilot is to themself, there passengers and to members of the public and their property.

This is where the buck stops and this is where our rules and regs and advisories emnate from. It is not so much the reaction of CASA or the APF for that matter, it is the reation of civil litigation after the criminal and coronial findings which would seem quite trivial compared to civil actions.

No matter which aspect of this industry, everybody must ensure that they are excercising due diligence and their responsibilities under the duty of care.

:D

B.D.

[Tinstaafl]

Backdoor...

Whether or not another operator operates inappropriately - AOC or not - doesn't excuse any other group doing the same.

[PROPSWINGA]

Backdoorbandit,
You too can't be serious....with your attitude, I would probably be correct in suggesting you might be the one to cause the grief when operating outside of 50 miles (what that has got to do with anything ??????) I think you might be suffering the same fate as utedrivingpilot....you guys really do need to change the water a bit more frequently!:p
Anyhow, on another note; MERRY CHRISTMAS to all and SAFE FLYING for the rest of your days!:ok:

[QNIM]

Gday


Now that the kiddys have got the prezzys open and spread around the place I can catch up.


BackdoorBandit

I won’t lower myself and engage in a slanging match.
Whoever dropped that note in your letterbox is poorly misinformed.


bongo driver

Both operators in the area and the APF have a policy of Duty of Don’t Care, it gets in way of profits, but we are working very hard to change their attitudes.


Cheers Q :ok:

[rs480]

C.A.
That ghost has been in the Cresco again and he is a sweetie cute and blonde I hope he doesn’t go to the Sydney Mardigras.

rs480:cool:

[OzExpat]

I noticed a meat-bomber mob at Caloundra a few weeks ago. They seem to be using a Russian twin (a Let?) that doesn't look like it's on the VH register. Anyone know anything about them?

Happy new year all.

[Torres]

OzExpat. Was this the beast?

http://www.utility-aircraft.com/images/let.jpg

If it's the aircraft I'm thinking of, it's a US FAA Certified, Walter engined LET 420, possibly US registered N420LT, if I recall correctly.

It was originally a demonstrator. I had a ride on it and was very impressed with it's STOL performance. I suspect it would do very well in PNG. :ok:

I seem to recall the problem in Australia was that it was slightly over 5,700 kg max gross weight, placing it in the air transport category - with all the additional costs and restrictions of that category of operation.

I was also impressed with the Walter engine. No HSI's, 3,500 hour TBO and guaranteed factory exchange price around US$50,000. I think Pratt's are a significant shareholder in Walter. And the trailing arm U/C and outboard multi disk brakes look solid enough to graft onto a Road Train or a D9!

One thing I do remember - indeed, will never forget - was the cockpit clock. So big you'd need a bloody engine sling and hoist to remove it! :}

Check this link (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=195655 ). It doesn't quite show the clock, but it's immediately above the fan.

What have you planned for midnight tonight? If you're still in Brisvegas I'm glad I'm home in the Outback!! :}

[Disco Stu]

I was wondering how long it would take for somebody to mention the oddball Let at Caloundra.

The aircraft is not on the Australian register and as such is not subject to our licencing requirements for either pilot or lame or approved maintenance schedule. The aircraft is registered in Sierra Leone (Africa). Naturally any pilot flying the aircraft or lame conducting & certifying any maintenance on it will of course be appropriately trained, checked and certified by the regulatory authority of Sierra Leone.:ooh:

The FAA audit regards Sierra Leone as a "Register of Convenience".

Disco Stu


:ok:

[QNIM]

Gday

I watched that Let operate out of Coloundra during the year they seem to carry out their opps very professionally, the days I watched were 8 8ths blue so can't comment about them dropping through cloud, the best part is they drop away from the field so as not to endanger the lives of the other airport users in the circuit.

I wish you all a safe and successful new year.

Cheers Q

[Spotlight]

I saw the Let also , and like you Toores was reasaonably impressed. From not close inspection its a soundly built type. I would imagine the crew would be having a French experience though. And sconning themselves on the clock.
The Walters don't seem to be moving down here. Are they elsewhere?

Is the machine operating under 'Experimental Category'. I had a feeling that they were! Or did this not work?
There was certainly a big Bell helicopter in this category at Caloundra. A Bell 407?, very big Huey looking Bell and I think pushed pretty hard on bushfire work.

[Spotlight]

Bite Torre's Bite!

[Disco Stu]

QNIM

A couple of corrections for you.

As the wx here is mostly as you describe it (8/8ths blue) there are still the odd days (like right now) when it is not, and yes they still drop every morning at 0900ish rain, hail or shine so to speak. I can hear the LET now in fact.

As for dropping away from the airfield, yes they do mostly, but they will still drop on the field when it suits them irrespective of the circuit traffic at the time.

Disco Stu

[OzExpat]

G'day Torres, sorry to be so late getting back to this topic, but I got sidetracked on NYE... :O No, I'm not in Brisvegas, but yer still pretty safe anyway! The LET that I saw was this one...

http://www.fototime.com/8389BB71789C5B2/standard.jpg

Agree that they'd probably do well in PNG, especially considering ease and apparent simplicity of maintenance! :} Not sure how it might stack up against the venerable Twotter, but probably not enuf money to buy them... the industry is still pretty sick. :{

[QNIM]

Gday Disc Stu

Seems they are all the same, stuff the regs and other users it gets in the way of profits.
I think the only way to pull them into line is as an earlier poster suggested make them operate as a commercial as it is anyway, requiring an AOC and a CP and the audits as the rest of us have put up with.
I feel better now.

Cheers Q :ok:

[GW_04]

QNIM

Oh dear....you really are a sad sad person! I feel a bit sorry for you in a way.
I have been reading this thread and come to the conclusion that you and your should be partner PROPSWINGA are all of the same breed!
REACTIVE and very bitter pilots that have never really made it in the industry. We sometimes like to class you guys as airport nazi's. Have you ever thought of developing some interpersonal skills and taking a PROACTIVE approach to some of the unsafe or dangerous practises that you wittness? Such as communicating with the people concerned (on there level if that's what it takes) and actually helping with the situation and applying some of your seemingly infanite knowledge!
I was a profesional jump pilot (yes..thats right....getting a nice pay packet keeping within the regs) at a very busy DZ in Oz a while ago and had to deal with an airport nazi such as yourself who could not comunicate with the DZ operator. He had CASA out with a folder of reports full of crap about cloud, traffic separation, circuits....etc...bla bla. CASA after a cup of coffee and a look at our very sweet turbine with some discussion on the regs were satisfied with our "Profesional operation".
I then took a PROACTIVE approach and communicated a bit more with the local flying school and airport nazi......and what do ya know.....we all worked it out and the airport was a happy safe place.
Ya see....the point of all this QNIM is.......that some of us like to fly. HEAPS of flying. And will do anything the right way to make it happin! You on the other hand are just a winger! If you want to make the sky's a safer place....be PROACTIVE aye?

PS. What do you mean by "put up with audits etc.."?

PPS. What do you mean by "only a grade 3"? Does this mean that you have to have a 2 or better to achieve god status like yourself?

PROPSWINGA

Ahhh well... I could not help but comment on your someone is going to get killed rubbish.
Do you know how many aircraft movements and flying hours are done each year around the world by jump planes?
It would astonish you if you looked! And what the fatality/flying hours ratio is in jump ops (from the aircraft ops that is)? Its a hell of a lot better than simple GA!! Or even compare commercial charter. Know your facts before spouting more REACTIVE rubbish.

Safe flying..and jumping everyone.
Bluesky's

;) G

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Ozexpat A little off topic here. That cub in the background of your piccie, is that BAN? Does Adrian Mutch still own it?

Regards

Mark Jones

[OzExpat]

I honestly don't know mate. It never occurred to me to take a photo of it because I've seen Cubs before. I only photographed the Let because I'd never seen one. I'm not local to the area but am pretty sure that at least one of the other contributors to this thread lives somewhere nearby and can find out for you.

Sorry that I can't be more helpful.

[Harry_Porter]

GW_04
Well said, I have to agree with you. Myself also spending quite some time as a jump pilot a few years ago, Loved the time, gained a lot of experience. Believe it or not, some from skydivers, these skydivers who are also pilots. I think a lot of the anger might come from some of these people who are sitting on the ground watching these a/c (Turbine/Multi) go up and down all day, whilst they are stuck on the ground polishing there shiny gold bars.
The safety record of jump flying is not too bad, as maybe compared to that of the weekend warriors. Considering the amount of movement created by Skydiving ops, I would say that the safety record is not too bad.
I know of a few airfields that are owned by skydiving mobs, one mentioned so far. And the owners are nice enough to let these people keep their a/c there and use the airfield. Then what do they do?? they turn around and complain... Its like buying a house on the boundry of sydney airport and complaining about the noise.
I agree with some of the posts on here, and in no way condone flying a roll of high speed tape through the soup for $10 bucks a load. However if the pilot and a/c are equiped then flying in a less than perfect day is ok. Be assertive and dont do anything you dont want to do, as being under private ops, you as the pilot in command are responsible for the a/c, the passangers and the flight. Not the operator.

[prospector]

Harry-Porter
The fact that the PIC is responsible for everything relating to compliance with regulations in these so called private operations is the problem for the most part. The operator, who normally does the hiring and firing, does not have to have any proven knowledge of CAA regs. If having to comply with regulations costs the operator money, then it very often also costs the PIC his job. If the PIC does not comply with regs and an incident or accident occurs it is no skin off operators nose, he can plead ignorance, how can he comply with rules and regulations when there is no requirement to have any knowledge of them. The buck gets passed to the PIC. This is a very easy cop out for the regulatory authority. They(regulators) presumably are there to ensure compliance without the threat of losing their jobs. How to make the job easier?? Pass the buck to PIC.

Prospector

[deeper]

ozbusdriver,

that is ban in the background behind the let, don't know who owns it but is based in caboolture.

[PROPSWINGA]

GW_04,
You really do have some serious issues boyoh! Statistics DO NOT bear out what you claim is fact.....one organisation around here had FIVE (yes 5) engine failures over last 2 years ALL DUE TO FUEL STARVATION!!! Now.. that is not a bad claim to fame eh what?:\ Nobody killed.....luckily, but bear in mind that they are usually within gliding distance of the place they just departed from, then there is nothing unusual in the success rate either.:uhoh: BUT THIS IN NO WAY negates the pilots responsibility to make sure he departs with sufficient fuel (plus reserves) for the planned trip.:E
Whether one likes it or not; this industry in OZ needs a bl**dy good shake up AND FAST before we end up with a whole pile of funerals to go to and everybody asking; "WHAT WENT WRONG"!:\

[Lukeatme]

Right on Propswinger, GW seems to have gone to the personal path that the chappie named Qnim is a Nazi just because he has found an Operator that seems to me (by reading all the posts) is doing all the unsafe practices of delivering the dirt darts to the selected area in an unsafe and non standard manner. I wonder if the darts have the seat belts attached for the ride to the oxygen starved heights?

[0tter1]

Lukeatme. I dont think that GW has gone the personal path , he is simply stating that in his experience he has come accross such characters (airport Nazi's), I am sure many people over the years have come accross the old Airport Nazi, who likes to make life difficult for everyone else. If you have been reading, PROPSWINGA is an example of someone with a personal grudge. Claiming that their local dropzone has had 5 engine failures due to fuel exhaustion, which by the way is a load of cr@p. Such acusations as the above are VERY serious. And because of the general bagging of the industry, everybody jumps to believe anything anybody says of a negative nature. Because when they hear PJ ops, if its bad, it must be true! I have flown jumpers in the past, and learned a lot and had heaps of fun. On a number of occasions, was sneered at and looked down on by other pilots when they found out I was a jump pilot until they saw what I was flying. Then they became very chummy.
:uhoh:

[Lukeatme]

Otter 1 Well I must admit that I have flown jumpers in the very early days when you told them to put the seat restraint on or no takee off and when clouds cover the zone we do not get involved with them no matter how good you think your flying skills are, but hey it was for fun and the dollars did not corrupt the operation. So you flew them I am impressed if it was in the victoria area did you know Claude of Doncaster (alias God) I also have a local that was a first of the new idea of private skydiving with the el cheapo military canopies but yeah this GW seems to me to be one of the wayward type that will defend any association with the skydiving fraternity be it good ops or even defend the bad situation by condeming bad practices and or sloppy buck chasing operators.

Otter 1 I failed to mention an incident about jumping through cloud that occured at Labertouche (old jump zone east of melbourne) a visiting team was to arrive early morning and stated they would jump in, by radio they where informed that it was eight eights but they said we do it all the time? and let the guys out over what they thought was a good mark (by others telling them it sounded overhead) the guys jumped but good for them they decided not to go through the cloud layer and opened and floated for about 20 seconds before landing on the mountain in cloud. The pilot was a bit shaken when he learned of it but the old jumpers had to get down unaided because four wheel drives could not even get to them. The moral is why risk your life and anybody elses when it is not needed, The cloud will break but if it does not wait or try another day. But this posting forum has seen the problems first hand and are trying to remedy it ? I do know of fuel starvation at least twice at this particular field but the machine they now use would probably negate that but hey cloud ops are not legal and the APF should do a surprise visit and bring CASA along. I am not anti skydiving but feel that it should not be performed at this location as well as not at another location about 4km away either on safety of area grounds. If it was just a club it would survive by not doing cloud jumps as most members would understand but being commercial in operation the public is spending the operator is wanting the dollars any way possible, through traffic must be on there toes as you may not make it to your destination if you get hit by a sky diver that you will not see or indeed you see him/her.

[PROPSWINGA]

Otter 1,

Nice try turkey! Five engine failures due fuel starvation in 2 years IS BL**DY WELL CORRECT...end of story!:uhoh: Regularly flying through 8/8th in a machine that is not qualified - FACT. Regularly unauthorised and totally unnecessary low level - FACT. Regularly unauthorised and unnecessary low level formation flying - FACT. Regularly take-offs after dark at an unlit aerodrome - FACT. Passengers carried without seats, harnesses or restraints - FACT. and the list goes ON and ON:ugh:
Who is to blame?
The parachute operator? NO
The Parachutists? NO
The Aerodrome Owner? NO
The Pilot in Command? YES!!!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Deeper Thanks mate. I shall dig deeper:D ......now back to the dirt-darts.

[C.A.]

Hi guys! Hope we all had a safe new year in the sunshine. Surprised you are all still here. Such is life.

Just to clarify and to seek clarification please.

PROPSWINGA. Pilot friend wanted some dates and which aircraft just in case you were making stuff up about the fuel starvation. That should ease Otter 1 's mind too i suppose. Hope you have them and its not unsubstantiated as you will look a bit silly in front of all these lovely people.

But just so you know, Barwon Heads has lights for night flying and has done for as long as i remember. (mind you i only remember having 2 beers so far) And all aircraft have been IFR down there for over 12 months and thats from CASA direct. As for seats in a parachuting aircraft, didnt think it was overly necessary or a rule. Maybe go and speak to the boys down there that do the flying (please dont speak to the operator as by the tone of your text it seems it would end in a bloody mess!) and ask them what rules they have for their aircraft and dropping. It seems you may have been previously misinformed about some things. Take an opportunity to expand your knowledge and walk away a more rounded and complete aviator rather than shutting things out like it seems a few people down there do. Im not trying to take you down mate but a person who can have an open mind will get further and be more successful in all facets of life as opposed to one which is not. More so in flying!

And i dont claim to be confucious(spelling?) either! Just an observation. As said, Im not having a go at you!

Also heard that the airfield owner has just given a new long lease to the parachuting mob. What happened, I thought they were against it for being unsafe. Have they cleaned up their act already. Just a rumour though!

Take care guys and hear you soon.

CA

[rs480]

C.A.
You’re right Barwon Heads has lighting and the rumor is the owner has extended the lease but I am led to believe it was because of a previously singed agreement and a dispute over use of a section of a runway.

Regardless of the runway lights and any agreement between the airport owner and the skydive operator (which is none of our business) any operation must be conducted SAFELY and within the CASA and APF Operational Procedures and Regs.

Those of you that believe some in this forum are being to harsh on the jump plane pilots need to stop and think before you rattle off, as he is the person who tips the DIRT DARTS out of the aircraft with total disregard for any aviator in the airspace beneath him, remember it could be any of us in or just under that cloud thru which the DIRT DARTS pass and not necessarily at Barwon Heads.

Now maybe these pilots believe they can walk on water or maybe they believe they are doing the right thing by the operator or both, but be assured when the **** hits the fan the operator will step back and give up the pilots to the authorities (and I believe did in the case at Barwon Heads when CASA raided him).

If they put the lives of fellow aviators at risk they deserve all they get and the sooner the better.


GW_04
Well you sure don’t mind letting everyone know you’re an IDIOT, I suggest you read all the posts before you rabbit off again about communication.

You say in your post you were “a professional jump pilot” to which one must ask how professional?
When we read further on in your post and see you refer to incident reports as “crap about cloud, traffic separation, circuits....etc...bla bla” and we can answer NOT VERY.

PROPSWINGA is right, you’re a turkey perhaps you should get together with Harry_Porter then at least between you there would be half a brain.
(No prize for second place dummies and I guess that’s where you’ve been all your lives no gold bars):8


Lukeatme

That was two engine failures in the porter (on one occasion they took out a fence in a paddock on the other side of the road from the end of the runway) and one in the 206 on final this time the landed short of the fence but had to cut it to get the plane out (b*gg*r the farmers what right do they have to put fences in this operators way) :ok:

[Lukeatme]

rs 480 Yep do remember that but the top end seems to forget most things until it is heard again, I noticed one of the persons mouthing up is in NZ sure his facts would not be wrong how could a south seas pom get it wrong?

[GW_04]

Dear rs480

Calm down there ole chap. You seem to be taking it all a bit personal.
I must add that I did read all the posts and am still sticking to my original story! If these guys all got on a little better and had a good chat about things, I think they might work things out a little better (in other words safer sky's for all).
As for the mention about the cloud reports etc.. I was refering to the airport nazi that was creating the "Crap", was the issue. CASA aggreed and I have in writting to prove this.
I in no way support or condone any unsafe or reg braking practises in our operation from any pilot!!
All I am saying rs480 is that "sometimes", in order to keep it all safe on both sides of the fence is a little extra effort in communication.
I'm sure you and QNIM and PROPSWINGA would get a lot less bored trying this than using the winge forum and watching the hard working pilots out the window.

PS: Cloud jumping for jumpers is legal in NZ and soon to be for a few in OZ. Its safe! If done right!
Why....because a few smart, proactive people have done there homework, had a chat with each other, and come up with a way to make it all happen safely. In fact its all good, because it gives some of the ******** operators that previously broke the rules (ref. cloud jumping that is), something to go on to do things RIGHT. Thats what I'm talking about as an example of COMMUNICATION rs480.

Have fun and safe flying
G :)

[PROPSWINGA]

CA:

Was NEVER talking about Barwon Heads!

Otter 1:

You're still a turkey - hope you didn't get gobbled-up over Christmas?;)

[rs480]

GW_04

You’re right I am taking it bit personal, as that’s the way it is when the DIRT DARTS fill the windscreen after dropping thru cloud, close up and personal and if you haven’t experienced it or been to B.H. to see the manner in which these clowns conduct their operation how can you criticize those that have and do.

It appears to me that most pilots that have been lift drivers tend to side with the skydiving operator even if they have no idea of the operation; I guess it is the feeling of guilt taking over.

As for watching hard working pilots, I’ve never seen one, you can’t tell me flying is hard work, it’s all beer & skittles, let the FO take over, have a chat to the folks down the rsend, enjoy the in-flight service and on your days off be a weekend warrior.

Do it all by the book and at the end of the day you have a wallet so fat in won’t fit in your flight bag WHAT A LIFE



Keep your eyes open
rs 480
:ok:

[GW_04]

Rs

Now we are having a nice clean bit of opionions here. Cheers mate!:ok: Genuine I feel this time. I respect your opinion and aggree in part also. Its just the wingers who have such a one eyed view to all, that I cannot stomach.
I must ask you though... why did you have "DARTS" as you call them in your windscreen, over a known (operating) drop zone?
I am assumeing the pilot did not make any radio calls, you had a coms faliure, the PDZ was not on any NOTAMS or maps....etc.
Cloud jumping in a controll zone or TMA etc is actually very safe if done right. Everybody knows whats going on and where everyone is (including canopys in the air etc.)
It is often the itinerent pilots that are in danger because they may not be aware of the Drop Zone.
By the way...canopys against a cloudy background are a lot easier to see than in a clear blue sky. The colours tend to blend in with the terrain.
Im not saying that I support illegal ops in cloud!!
But....if these guys are going to do it anyway, would you not feel safer if it was being done with set legal procedures? Maybe one of you guys should be pushing these less educated operators into a safe legal practise that works for all (with the help of CASA of course).
As for lift drivers sideing......mmmm some do yeah point takin. Not all though I can assure. Some are just to timid to stand up to some of them. As for B.H... know who runs it, but cant comment on the ops down there as have no experiance with them or the airfield.
Look at it from all sides mate. Then do something to help make it all safer! I know a lot of my efforts in the past 18 yrs of aviation have been just that! Which is why I cant stand the wingers.
Enjoy your big wallet.

G ;)

[PROPSWINGA]

Now we are starting to see some sense coming into the argument. There are really four forces at play here and each one has a right to their respective opinion. The forces are:
Parachutists
Pilots of parachutists
Pilots who infrequently encounter para ops and,
Pilots who frequently encounter para ops.
Just because someone does not agree with any particular comment posted here, they are labelled as 'whingers' especially if that post goes against your particular school of thought.
I have said it before, I am not against parachute ops AT ALL but I do have a very serious problem with the few pilots that continually push the limits whilst flying for them. Dirt Darting through clouds is just one issue. If it is not legal, it should not be being done; END OF STORY. Likewise, the unrated pilot who flys an unrated aircraft through 8/8th to get them there needs to be grounded and in any other type of operation in the country, that would indeed be the case. The low passes, formation flying etc are all unnecessary and downright dangerous in the circumstances! Can anyone give me JUST ONE sound and valid reason why two aircraft, with 5+ bums on each would need to depart for para ops IN FORMATION (including the take-off)? The most experienced of us cannot do this sort of thing (with even one pax onboard) when flying display aircraft as it is considered too dangerous and unnecessary!:\
Let's US as pilots bring a little bit of professionalism into this particular aviation pursuit and continue to slam those errant few who bring the whole affair into disrepute; and if that means I have to carry the title of 'WHINGER' then so be it!

[0tter1]

Poor old PROPSWINGA would have had a heart attack down at Corowa a few years ago during the 11 Cessna formation loads.
Its a shame the pilots were formation rated.. :E

! Can anyone give me JUST ONE sound and valid reason why two aircraft, with 5+ bums on each would need to depart for para ops IN FORMATION (including the take-off) The most experienced of us cannot do this sort of thing (with even one pax onboard) when flying display aircraft as it is considered too dangerous and unnecessary!

I seem to remember when doing my formation rating, having someone else on board. Instructor?? I have to disagree a little im affraid. Not with what is going on at your airfield, but your statement. The most experienced of us cannot do this sort of thing (with even one pax onboard)
The whole reason behind doing a formation rating is so that when you are actually flying in formation, near the ground or in the air, you can do so safely and legally. If taking off in formation was so deadly dangerous then it would not be allowed full stop!! You should try dropping in formation! :ok:

[GW_04]

Propswinga

A lot of good points there mate. I have to aggree...we might be starting to get somewhere with this one.
Have to dis agree with you about whingers being the ones against another's particular school of thought.
Have a look at the name of this thread.
Is it not just a little bit dirrogitory (spelling not one of my strengths).
Go back to page one and look at how they talk of ooooo...wonder what CASA found at the dirtbag meatbombers. And then it goes on to bag out the whole jump pilot/skydiving scene as if all are just a bunch of (almost criminals as they try to portray). Thats whinging!
Truth. There are good and bad operators at all levels of aviation.
Just as there is some very profesional skydive operators around.
Im open to all points of view on how to fix some of the probs.
Anyone for some good ideas??

G

PS..I think you and I have had some sort of conversation along these lines in the past PROPSWINGA?

[PROPSWINGA]

Old Otter 1, if nothign else, you certainly can be trusted to crawl out from under the woodpile just in time to put your proverbial foot str8 into it..........
I said pax onboard....not instructor or essentail crew....pax....PAYING PASSENGERS! There is a B I G difference.
As to my original statement about just one sound reason.....still haven't seen one yet. What's wrong with forming-up for the last 5 minutes of the flight? instead of the bl++dy dangerous pairs-takeoff, one-behind-the-other....didn't see any canopy rel work happening down amoungst the reeds???at dot feet.:ok: Could it be you were one of the culprits?;)

[TurbineDreamer]

Can anyone tell me what the SkyDive Operators in and around the Sydney area are like. Are they safe operators and good to work for as a drop pilot. Appreciate the Info.

[Dale Harris]

Oh well, look at it this way propswinga, if they take off together, climb together and jump together, you won't have to worry your poor little head about finding TWO separate jump a/c on the ctaf, will you? Should make it a bit easier for "even the best" to find them.

[PROPSWINGA]

.........................and yet another bottom dweller drags itself from the bottom of the pile to add some constructive comments and positive enlightenment to the thread..........AS IF!:\
Good one Dale.......drop in again anytime:ok:
TurbineDreamer....they are all good or better than average para operators around Sydney area, including the south and north coast that I know of.....try your hand with any of them BUT try to keep yourself professional as a pilot! Good luck and safe skies.

[the wizard of auz]

Hehehe, go get him Dale!!!!

[Harry_Porter]

PROPSWINGA, I have to say have read over you previous posts (not only this one) And you appear to be a very angry little man. Would be interested to know what your background and qualifications are...

Can anyone shed some light on the origonal topic.. What are the latest developments?? All has gone quiet... I am asuming everything has resumed to ops normal?? Havent heard from QNIM for a while..

[QNIM]

Gday H_P

I is still around, tis the silly season so flat out , but the incidents continue on a regular basis. They still have trouble avoiding that grey stuff and dropping when conflicting traffic in the area.

Cheers Q

[Dale Harris]

Propswinga, I've been on this thread several times, although you may not necessarily know it. I'm glad I have your permission to do that. Unlike yourself, this bottom dweller is enjoying his aviating, and having left the para dropping business far behind, cares not what they do anymore. It is a simple matter to speak to whomever you deem appropriate to get the action you want. Still, if that doesn't work, and it didn't for me, I just avoid them. Good luck!! You are an angry little person, aren't you.......