Getting VAT back

[ossie_lation]

Just starting PPL(H) with a view to doing CPL with 17.5% VAT going to the inland revenue. Does anyone have any tips/advice on how it may be possible to claim this back.
If it can be claimed I'm more likely to do all flying training in the UK where I'd rather do it!

[Send Clowns]

Talk to H.M. Customs & Excise (not the 'Revenue, VAT is an excise duty not a tax). They will tell you. I suspect you cannot, due to catch 22: without CPL you cannot sell your flying skills. Until you are in the business you cannot claim. As far as I could work out you can only claim if you are improving your business opportunities, not establishing them.

Ask anyhow, it can't hurt!

Could you post on here if you have any luck, it would help a lot of the people here. I didn't even think of it at your stage!

[quidam]

Ossie_lation,

Its difficult! Currently nearing the end of achieving it myself. Keeping fingers crossed:\

Send Clowns is completely correct in that you need to speak to HM Customs.

I'm told claiming the VAT used to be really easy, but as with anything a number who were only ppl learning and with no intention of ever going further messed it up for those who were genuine.

Is a long process to register with them and with no guarantees.

In essence you hit an initial catch 22.

You have too few hours/ too little cpl progress to show you are genuine, and by the time you have this you then need to convince them to pay you back VAT that may have been paid over six months ago.(Outside of the normal return period)

I started talking to the VAT people over 16 months ago. Left officially applying to become VAT registered until I'd completed approx 105 hrs TT, had passed all the ATPL theory subjects, created a company registered with companies house and set up a business bank account :sad: Oh and got an accountant to fill the forms in:{

Hoping to get everything in place whilst I finish the last few hours building and get the final cpl flying course sorted. Goes without saying that you will need to keep EVERY receipt.

VAT peeps are far from stupid and given the previous abuse are now very dubious of flying training applications.

They have also recently asked for a rough business plan and proof of advertising material (to prove that I intend to finally trade as a business!)

In the event you end up only working for one employer I've been told they can ask for all the returned VAT to be repaid:{

I last spoke to the VAT people just over two weeks ago and have been lucky in finding a very helpful and simpathetic staff member. I'm also rotary and if successful will try and pass on the pit falls I've found.

As I said, hopefully fairly soon I'll hear that alls gone ok and a cheque is in the post. Whatever I'll update this post once I hear from them again.

Q

'Make crime pay............ Become a lawyer!'

[Send Clowns]

It is ridiculous that only those paying for their own training, only individuals, pay VAT on the training. Isn't most other vocational training VAT-exempt? :mad:

[Jinkster]

Knitting is VAT exempt yes and many other stupid mickey mouse courses.

I presume a frozen ATPL VAT can be claimed back with valid reciepts.

Jinkster

[ecj]

A possible way forward for junior bird men thinking of professional training is to write to your MP. The more MPs involved, the greater the chance of changing the legislation.

[Andrew M]

Talk to H.M. Customs & Excise (not the 'Revenue, VAT is an excise duty not a tax). They will tell you. I suspect you cannot, due to catch 22: without CPL you cannot sell your flying skills. Until you are in the business you cannot claim. As far as I could work out you can only claim if you are improving your business opportunities, not establishing them.

Good point - and your business has to be over a certain amount of turnover to register for VAT. If you are VAT registered - well, it's "input VAT" that you paid (don't quote me on that - I am only a trainee beancounter :D ) It just depends on your input/output vat amounts.

EG:

£ 10,000 of sales VAT (VAT you charged people - you pay this to HMCE)

and a total of £15,000 reclaimable VAT.

They just work out the difference, and you then reclaim £5,000.

[Spinningtop]

I seem to remember a topic about VAT over in the rotorheads forum and you can voluntarily (sp?) make your company VAT registered (regardless of turnover), or by law you must be VAT registered if you company's turnover is over a certain threshold (about £50000 I think).

Do a search in the rortorheads forum for VAT you might be able to find the thread.

[distaff_beancounter]

There is one problem that is often encountered when trying to register for VAT, before any VATable sales, are on the horizon. This is proving to the Customs & Excise's (C&E) satisfaction, an "intention to trade".

An intention to spend money on flight training is not deemed to be an intention to trade. C&E usually ask for some evidence of where the future income is coming from. eg have you got any definite sales or contracts to supply services?

Then you have to consider where C&E regulations collide with Inland Revenue (IR) regulations. Once you have got your fATPL, you are probably hoping to get work with an airline. In which case, to comply with IR regulations, the airline will usually treat you as an employee, & pay you net pay after deduction of PAYE/NIC. In these circumstances you cannot charge the airline VAT on your services as a pilot. So no VATable sales.

The only way to show the C&E potential VATable sales, would be to show self-employed income as a pilot. eg can you find an airline, flying school or other aviation company, that will hire your services as a self-employed sub-contractor? If so you can then charge VAT on your services as a pilot.

However, under IR regulations, a worker (you) and an employer, cannot simply decide to treat the worker as self-employed, even if both worker & employer agree to the arrangement. It is another complicated question that depends on the terms of service, amongst other things.

[Andrew M]

Thanks for that - gonna have to try saying that in work Monday morning .... :D