Personality and Flying

[High Wing Drifter]

Hi Prooners,

Much is said about the most suitable personality for piloting, especially on the Oxford boards where they seem hell bent on management types being the most suitable (no indication why except the usual platitudes). So I thought I would have a go at an online one. I tried www.emode.com - the career personality, follow the "premium" tests link.

Anyway, I did the test twice and attempted to answer as honestly as I could on both occasions and got two similar results (ESTJ and ISTJ types). I then did a Google search and got a full description of each type, which seem favourable...ish.

Does anybody know how compatible these personality types are with piloting? Obtaining any concrete detail on the subject in relation to flying seems to be quite difficult.

Cheers,
HWD.

[DanRS]

I personally know a couple of management types who I wouldn't let near anything more technical than a paperclip.

I think what they are saying is that you need to be able to get on with people as well as be able to take responsibility/authority. in addition be able to take critisism in a positive way and act on it as well as be able to analyse your own actions and understand where improvements can be made.

That said how many managers do you know/have had, that can do the above ;)

Another point is it depends on the type of flying you are doing. Airliners require a different skillset/personality to freighters etc. etc.

So what does the interweb say about your personality?

Cheers Dan

P.S. Needles to say all of these ramblings are just my opinion, I'm sure someone who knows better will give you a real answer:)

[High Wing Drifter]

I think what they are saying is that you need to be able to get on with people as well as be able to take responsibility/authority.
I agree, this is what I meant by "platitudes" beacuse that's all they are.

So what does the interweb say about your personality?
E/ISTJ stands for Extrovert/Introvert Sensing Thinking Judging according to the "Myers-Briggs Type Indicator". You can get the descriptions here: http://typelogic.com/. Frankly, I could be any one of these descriptions!!

I find the whole thing so vague and waffly that it seems inconcievable that anybody can make any sound judgements from this...data.

Hence my original question. It seems that most airlines batter prospective airline pilots over the head with this stuff but what the hell are they looking for? Does anybody know?

[Pilot Pete]

Hi guys

HWD,

As with all tests there is an element of inacuracy in the results. I forget exactly what it is for the Myers Briggs TI tests, but its is somewhere less than 5% I think.

As for you getting an ESTJ on one occassion and then an ISTJ on another that shows (test inacuracy removed) that you must not be answering the questions completely consistently or you are literally right on the cusp of Extrovert/ Introvert.

The 'E' and 'I' are perhaps the best known traits of any which Jung professed in his 'type' theories and I am sure most people know the difference between an extrovert and an introvert. Being decribed as one and then the other does throw up a little confusion, so perhaps have a go at a few more tests and be brutal in forcing yourself to make choices based on your gut instict, especially where it asks you which you prefer of two things that you dislike! Reverse it and ask which do you dislike least if forced to make a choice. Get the idea? It is only through being completely honest and consistent in your answers that you can hope to get a consistant result regarding your profile.

For the benefit of others, there are no 'right' and 'wrong' answers in these profiles, only preferences, so don't try second guessing and putting what you think is what an airline would like to hear. You are just altering your actual profile and perhaps into something less desirable.

As for which profile the airline(s) want, well it's not usually as simple as that. Many years ago when it was the stiff upper lipped 'leader of men' who ruled the cockpit, his (intentionally used there!) profile would be 'classic' ESTJ, to an extreme. That is the classic 'stable extrovert' that we used to hear so much about.

I am not saying that an ESTJ is now not the 'right' type of person, indeed, many many pilots are ESTJs as the job still attracts that type of individual. Companies however, do not only employ one 'type', think about it; everyone the same. How would they get on together!? What they do is employ individuals who pocess a set of desirable traits, which can appear in many of the Myers Briggs personality types. So you can see, the use of these tests is just as 'grey' as the sitting of them!!!!!! That's why they employ HR 'people people' who study this kind of stuff and set the agenda based on what the recruiter(s) want.

The thing to remember is that these tests are only used as tools in an attempt to get a more complete picture of the individual. That is exactly what an interview is attempting to do, as are verbal and numerical reasoning tests, group exercises and so on. They are nothing to fear as long as you are not some crazed lunatic who has a special 'friend' who you keep talking to!!!!!!!! Just be yourself, do practice a bit more though, just to try and get some consistency built into your answers; I am not saying learn answers here, just to get more familiar with making what can appear difficult choices for you. This will help you to be more ruthless in making choices rather than wanting to 'sit on the fence' because you feel you are neither one nor t'other.

Hope this helps.

PP

[High Wing Drifter]

Thanks PP,

An interesting and thought provoking explanation. I think you have convinced me I don't need to know anything else about this process really. I think over-analysis is probably going to do more harm than good in this respect.

Cheers!
HWD.

[Hawk]

Pilot Pete..what a lovely summary of the extroverted/introverted MBTI preferences. Especially you're linking and acknowledment to the founder..Jung.

[Pilot Pete]

Why thank you Hawk.

If anyone wants to learn a little more about the 'types' of personality, here are a few notes.

The profile is made up from 4 areas where your preferences lie.

1. Where your energy is directed - Extroversion / Introversion

2. The way you process information - Sensing / Intuition (denoted by 'N' as introversion uses the 'I')

3. How you prefer to make decisions - Thinking / Feeling

4. How you prefer to organise your life - Judgement / Perception

Let's look at them in order;

Extroversion / Introversion

This looks at where your energy is primarily directed. If it is to the outer world of activity and spoken words you are said to be extrovert. If it is more towards the inner world of thoughts and emotions you are said to be introverted. Obviously we all have occassions when we like to be by ourselves, even the most extrovert of people, but this does not detract from them being an extrovert, equally, an introvert who has been by themselves all day may want to go down the pub with some friends in the evening and this does not detract from them being introvert. It's where you primarily prefer to spend your energy that counts.

The airline pilot job tends to attract more extroverted individuals as the job requires lots of contact with and interaction between people.

Sensing / Intuition

If you prefer to process information in the form of known facts and familiar terms then you are said to be more sensing. If you prefer to look at possibilities and new potential then you are more intuitive.

As you can see, the 'classic' pilot will probably be more fact based in the way they process information, probably not looking deeply at the areas of new possibilities or new potential when the engine is on fire!

Thinking / Feeling

If you make decisions based on logic and objective considerations then you are more thinking. If your decisions are made on the basis of personal values then you are more feeling.

Pilots tend to need to make decisions based on logic and objective consideration (the engine fire scenario comes to mind again!), but outside of the area where immediate action is needed they should be considering using a bit of the feeling side when making decisions as there are people to consider, such as cabin crew. The individual who prefers to use logic and objective considerations could become pretty unpopular if they neglect the feelings of others when making their decisions. Equally, the individual who uses too much feeling will be unlikely to make the best decisions in the cockpit where sometimes feelings have to take second place to action.

Judgement / Perception

If your life is ordered in a structured way based on making decisions and knowing where you stand then you are more judgement based. If it is organised in a more flexible way, discovering life as you go along then it is based more on perception.

The pilot who is more judgement based when organising his/ her life will appear well organised, they prefer to make decisions about things like what to do, where to go, what to say etc. Pilots tend to make decisions like this, however, remaining flexible once a decision has been made is also desirable and perhaps one reason why things like DODAR or GRADE have been introduced to help us judgement based pilots try and make sure we have reviewed all the options before making a decision and again to make us review that decision subsequently to keep considering other options that may arise and be more suitable.

The individual whose preference is more perception likes to find out more rather than make decisions and is more comfortable when they keep their options open, thus appearing more flexible. Not undesirable in a pilot, but you have to make decisions at some point and not just shy away from them by keeping all options open, so again, a good balance is what is needed.

So, you can see where the 'classic' stable extrovert came from and how extreme ESTJ is not what is most suited to the modern cockpit (and incidently wasn't suitable to the 'old' cockpit either, see the Staines accident for proof of that.) In the past a big problem was lack of understanding of these sorts of traits and the effect they have on the others around these people. Stiff upper lip and an ability to perform single handedly when under extreme pressure were seen as the most desirable traits and perhaps a military mentality of telling these people they were the 'best of the best' which lead to them not being able to accept 'lesser mortals' in their cockpit (which was three crew and their military career had been perhaps single crew.)

Now with such a good understanding of behavior and what leads to an effective team things have moved on considerably with CRM into trying to set a tone in the cockpit which enables everyone to feel of value and to take responsibility and give their best to attempt to make the flight much safer.

With this in mind, many airlines now use these tests to try to recruit the people who will best fit this culture in the first place; those with the right balance of the traits described as they will more naturally fit the 'model' that the airline is trying to achieve.

Hope this gives a bit more of an insight.

PP

[strafer]

It was a very interesting post PP, but does anyone else think all this is smoke and mirrors? (Or is that just my personality type?).

HR in almost every industry seem to have an almost insane desire to latch on to any 'new' managment techniques, buzzwords and other psychobabble. Also, an impulse to create 'work' in order to justify their existence on the company payroll.

Would it not be simpler just to take any prospective candiadates down the pub for the evening? (As another philosopher once said, 'In vino veritas').

Flippancy aside, is it not easy to make a very educated guess about someone's personality just by spending a couple of hours in their company?

[Pilot Pete]

Couldn't agree more strafer. Trouble is, just as it is easy to way someone up down the pub (or in an interview) it's just as easy for them to be on their 'best behaviour' because they know they are under scrutiny. Think about it, do you bare your sole at interview so they see the real you, or do you paint yourself in the best possible light, only showing them what you want them to see?

Don't get me wrong, I'm no particular fan of this type of thing, just that it's their train set and in order to play with it I have learnt that you have to go with the flow. Understanding it is the key, then you can at least exert some form of control over the situation. What they are trying to do is find the 'real' you; what makes you tick and as you say, just about all big business is using these techniques these days. They use them because they get some form of return; they like the 'product' the process produces. They wouldn't waste tens of thousands if they didn't see a value in it.

I also agree that I am sure there is an element of self justification in it for HR types, but the underlying principles of it are based on some form of fact. Just look at the extrovert / introvert that we have all heard of. We all know these two types of characters and have met them over the years. I have met people who were so introverted it stood out like a sore thumb that they would be totally unsuited to the role of commercial pilot, funnily, one of these characters was training for a licence.............. Perhaps the recruiters could save some money there and just take him down the pub for an hour or two!?

PP

[High Wing Drifter]

They wouldn't waste tens of thousands if they didn't see a value in it.
You are assuming they know how to measure their processes. They might see value in it and the value may not be in the accuracy of the filtering process but simply the perceived cost effectiveness of applying these blunt instruments by using external management consultants to devise and execute said processes.

[strafer]

As you said PP, while not having a likeing for the process, you know what they're looking for and how to work their system. If it was truely efficient, then it should be able to spot that you're doing just that. Anyone who has the intelligence needed to get an fATPL and a M/E IR is probably intelligent enough to know that the answer to the question, say, 'Do you like to gamble?' is aways no - even if they did like the odd flutter on the geegees.

Regarding the extrovert/introvert types, I would say most people (including pilots) are a mixture of the two, and their type depends as much on the time of day and their mood, as their character. People on the extremes on either type should be picked out in a decent MCC course, if not before.

There are as many personality types as there are people and while I'm not anti all things pschological, things like this need to be based on sound empirical science. (I get the impression that most advocates of this type of nonsense also practice Feng Shui in their living rooms).

Phrenology - that's the way to decide who's going to be a good pilot.

[Pilot Pete]

HWD

They might see value in it and the value may not be in the accuracy of the filtering process but simply the perceived cost effectiveness of applying these blunt instruments by using external management consultants to devise and execute said processes.

I guess the proof is in the pudding. If the pilots they had recruited using these techniques turned out to be 'unsatisfactory' or 'unsuitable' I guess they would question the value of the process and use something else. All the time they get pilots that are what they wanted they must be happy, whatever way they view the 'value'.

Strafer

I can't say I have learnt how to answer questions 'correctly' because I haven't, and because you can't, that's the whole point of these tests. The questions are designed not to be as simple as 'Do you like gambling?' where the correct answer is no. The whole point is there are no right and wrong answers, just preferences which show the degree to which you hold a view or feeling or way of doing something.

They purposefully question on subjects which are not mood affected, otherwise there would be no value in the tests as the results would show no consistency whatsoever. What I have learnt to do is answer the questions as honestly as I can without trying to 'guess' what the perceived 'right' answer would be and to turn 'which do you prefer' questions into 'which do I dislike least' if I don't like either choice. That way I am consistent in my answering test after test, which will give a consistent result, be it good or bad. So far so good and no employer has told me my character is unsuited to the flight deck environment.

Remember they are just another tool in the recruiters toolbox and no airline uses these as their only method of character assessment. The idea is to get a background on someone from the test to then probe deeper at interview to see if it stands up to scrutiny. I don't know why people are so anti, it's just another test, why aren't people so anti-interview? Plenty of mistakes have been made with these over the years and probably many were when they were the only form of selection test. Perhaps it was the unreliability of the interview that lead to their introduction? Much easier to portray something at interview that you are not than to beat a well devised question paper written by several shrinks I would have thought.

Didn't we do all this a few months back?

PP

[PPRuNe Towers]

Interesting subject indeed - one which I very much hope to return to in some detail when time permits.

Briefly, I was one of those people who created these tests. I worked on them betwen 1972 and 1975 when they were the cutting edge of profiling.

They were never intended to be used this way, entrepreneurs hijacked them and business fashion, especially the growth of HR, hugged them to their eager breasts. It is a huge money making enterprise.

Strafer is correct in every respect. Until I have time to add to this thread just cling onto your conception of introvert and extrovert as a black and white differential. It is actually far more subtle than that with many shades and is the reason why I was involved in the creating and testing of vast question banks, each validated on thousands of people.

Strafers smoke and mirrors apply directly to these commercial tests, the meanest of snapshots large amounts of money can buy. They are easily fooled and anyone can be trained (for money) to place their personality into the 'acceptable' spectrum.

Regards
Rob

[strafer]

PP,

I think we agree more than you think. I didn't say that you 'learnt' to give the correct answers, however you did say "Understanding it is the key, then you can at least exert some form of control over the situation.". Which was what I meant.

My point is simply that you should be able to spot the extreme personality types either in interview, as as mentioned, in a good MCC course. Earlier failings (ie choosing the crusty ex-RAF squadron leader for whom CRM was anathma) was more due to the criteria used than the process itself.

I'm not anti-test - just unconvinced that personality typing actually works in the way it's often claimed. As you say, it's worked out fine for you so far, maybe it does for the majority of people, but are you sure that there's not people who would would have made excellent pilots failing? For arguments sake, let's say you know 100 commercial pilots - then you probably know 100 different personality types, none of which conflicts with their ability to drive a plane. Let's face it, 411A claims to have been doing it for decades without crashing ;)


PS "Didn't we do all this a few months back?" - Not me!

[High Wing Drifter]

PP, strafer, Rob,

It is an interesting subject. For me personally because this is one part of the interview process which seems to be at whim of intangible things. Not good IMHO.

I guess the proof is in the pudding. If the pilots they had recruited using these techniques turned out to be 'unsatisfactory' or 'unsuitable' I guess they would question the value of the process and use something else. All the time they get pilots that are what they wanted they must be happy, whatever way they view the 'value'.
Frankly, I don't think there is any data to support one view or the other. Have these tests been around long enough to show that they work? Have the F/Os recruited gone on to be among the best Captains in the industry?

I just today finished the HPL section of my ground school study and I think the ATPL notes did a grand job of deconstructing human personality. It is clearer to me really where this is heading but I still have a problem understanding what the interviewers do with the results. If there is some YES/NO process then fine, I can deal with that. But if these tests are just another tool in the box to complicate an already dreadfully hit and miss process then surely the recruiters are back where they started – i.e. how on earth can they determine what actually worked.

I understand PP’s query of why should we be bothered by these as they are just a-n-other test, but as far as I am concerned, what I don’t understand can hurt me.

Cheers,
HWD.

[Pilot Pete]

Perhaps one of the points I made needs clarifying.

I say you cannot guess or learn 'right' answers. That is because the answers aren't 'right' and 'wrong', 'yes' or 'no' or 'correct', 'incorrect'. They are all just preferences and sure you can alter what you put down to alter your profile. My point is that if the average wannabe is sitting these tests for the first time and has not studied them in any depth then I think they are better off just putting the truth because without a little thought on the subject the danger is you alter your profile into something less desirable. As Pprune Towers says, I am sure individuals can be taught to answer questions in whatever way they need to in order to achieve a desired profile. Just needs a bit of time and thought like any other test. I would be very interested to read his thoughts on the subject hearing his background.

HWD

I agree totally, perhaps they haven't been around long enough to get long term quality feedback, but I suspect that the F/O population within airlines that have used them are all pretty reasonable people (from my experience) who will go on to make decent captains when the time comes, with exceptions, just like those career F/Os who will never make captain due to unsuitability who were recruited prior to these tests.

strafer

Again, I see exactly where you are coming from and don't disagree. I think recruiters should be able to spot extreme personalities at interview or on an MCC course (incidently, something that most airlines don't run and that the individual has purchased) and I feel that they just use these tests as another tool to either confirm what one sees at interview or counter it.

I am sure some individuals who would have made excellent pilots have failed selections based on their results from these tests. But again I am sure guys have failed interviews when they would have made great pilots too. I must admit I think it comes down to individuals preparing fully for any selection procedure. I know 2 or 3 guys who would have made excellent pilots who have just failed Britannia selection, not on these tests or their interviews (which they prepared for) but on the sim assessment where they didn't put any practice in and just learnt the calls, not expecting a 757 to be so difficult to fly acurately compared to their Seneca......................

My advice is to prepare for ALL the selection tests one is likely to encounter in the process. Who would sit an IR without practice/ instruction and expect to pass? It seems strange to me that guys don't do enough homework to fully understand what hoops they will be asked to jump through given the opportunity (which seems about the hardest thing at the moment!) These tests and all the others are IMHO all about control, your control of your performance.

PP

[GJB]

I have just come up as an ISTP. Having read the definitions, I can honestly say I identify with most of it. For the record, previously I have come up as being an E and not an I.

PS. Was pleased to see 'pilot' on the list of potentially suitable careeers for an ISTP


Best go down to the pub to sink a few dozen beers, sing some karaoke and be a bit of an 'E' for the night. :)

[Hawk]

To my knowledge the major airline recruiters dont use the MBTI to select pilots. The personality instruments' they use are way more sophisticated than that and "Yes" faking is picked up. You can't practice for it, and I'd be cautious of any business that claims they can give you coaching in how to "pass" any legitimate personality inventory for a major airline.

[High Wing Drifter]

Hawk,

Do you have a name for the other preferred test method(s)? I would be interested to know more.

Cheers!
HWD

[Hawk]

Um..no can't give you name of any of the personality inventories, if thats what you are asking. These istruments are kept locked up by psychologists, even if you were to get your hands on one it wouldnt do you any good. On the very outside chance people could be coached in such a test, and thats assuming that there is a profile and you could remember the answer to nearly 400 questions in some cases. The only professionals who would be able to assist you are psychologists. The consequence of that would be severe sanctions by their registration boards and possible loss of licence.

The MBTI's use in aviation I'm not clear about. It is usually used in a team environment and not to decide which types is more suitable for flying. To use it in such a manner goes against the basic philosophy of the authors. The major emphasis of the inventory is to value differences, there is no right or wrong "type". In fact when used in a team environment, if one "type" doesnt sound as if it fits, than you can pick another that you more closely identify with. To discus Introvert or Extrovert as distinct categories is misleading, the data is continuous not categorical. Human Resources departments can administer the test to search for any "gaps" in their team. The MBTI is a reasonably straighforward tool and does not require a professional to administer it. However, to use it as a recuitment instrument and base a decision as to someones employability on the basis of that exercise alone doesn't bear thinking about! Having said all of that in my experience there seems to be a trend towards ISTJs...ESTJs in pilots with a fairly long history of time in the industry. Thats just off the top of my head and of course there would be many variables that I cant bring to mind at the moment.

[strafer]

Just to clarify one point PP, which is a bit off topic. You said a couple of guys failed their sim test because they couldn't fly a 737 accurately. I don't understand why anyone would be expected to fly well on their first jet hour. I assumed that what the training captains would be looking for on that test, is the ability to be 'taught' if that makes sense. Flying jets obviously isn't an innate skill.

[High Wing Drifter]

Um..I was after an abstract on the methodology rather than the answer sheet :) Any white papers knocking about on the subject?

[Pilot Pete]

Strafer

Perhaps my choice of words didn't reflect what I was trying to put across.

The sim profile is sent to an individual some days/ weeks before the sim assessment. They expect you to learn this profile and the SOP calls inside out. Remember that when flying the actual sim your excess capacity will be severely diminished, so you have to get the calls word perfect under stress.

The accuracy of your flying of the profile is what I was getting at. You are right, they do not expect you to fly the jet sim perfectly on any of your attempts. What they do look for though is an ability to recognise your own mistakes, come up with a solution to them and then apply that to your next attempt, perhaps with some input on what they would like you to concentrate on putting right this time round. They may even give you another crack at the same profile and yet again they are looking for an improvement. What this shows them is that

a. You are halfway to rectifying your own mistakes if you can recognise them.

b. You can assimilate training input.

c. As a consequence you will cost them less money to train.

Hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.

Regards

PP

ps I know of at least two UK airlines who use Myers Briggs in their profiling, and that's just out of those that I have sat.

[strafer]

Thanks Pilot Pete