Useless Aviation Degrees

[bateman]

I firmly believe that aviation degrees are virtually useless to those who aspire to be pilots.

Firstly, if you are going to do a degree, do something which is recognised outside aviation. For example, business, economics, law etc. At least this way you will be able to get another job if aviation doesnt work out as planned.

Secondly, after 3 years you will come out with 200 hours, a degree which is not accepted outside aviation, and a huge HECS debt. Better to spend the HECS on an instructors rating/type rating. And use the 3 other years getting hours.

Thirdly, I believe that nobody who employs pilots in aviation is going to be impressed by an aviation degree over flight experience. And if they are impressed by a degree, then see point 1.

Lastly, if you really want a degree. Wait till you get an airline job, and then study something worthwhile part-time.

Im a big fan of degrees. I started an aviation degree, and soon realised it was irrelevant and worthless. I did the flight training as quickly as possible, got a job, and have now completed a Bachelor of Business. I firmly believe this is a much better way to to things.

I would like to hear contrary opinions, expecially from those who are involved with these degrees, and those who hire pilots.

cheers

[Transition Layer]

Woop Woop, wind-up alert!!!!

[giddy up]

Maybe when you get that big flying gig on a 210 in some god foresaken community, you can put your fancy business degree to use and run seminars for the locals on good business strategies and how the rising ozzie dollar is going to affect the cost of goanna....

:ok:

[flyboy-nz]

i would add my two cents but all it will result in is tears and ..

/gone

[compressor stall]

Bateman,

I agree. Half of the bachelors degrees are the CPL and ATPL subjects anyway! :}

CS - with a non aviation degree :ok:

[Kiwi Flyer]

Maybe if you want to go into management, or that kind of thing, but I dont think its that important, I certainly dont look at whether you have a degree or not when I'm hiring guys and girls to fly bugsmashers.

[MinimaNoContact]

I agree, what use is an Aviation Degree to you if you lose your medical.
Do something as a backup that you can enjoy/make a bundle of money out of, or can use succesfully if your aviation dream has fallen in the crapper.

After a few yrs in GA, who knows, you may WANT to do something different!

This might be the alkyhol speaking...

[AIRWAY]

Always have a plan B just in case plan A ( Aviation ) doesn't work.

MNC you have to be more moderate on the alchool :}

[Sheep Guts]

I dont think so. Alot of Carriers around the World look favourably on Degress. BA, CX, QF, EK to name a few not to mention in the US and CANADA,you will severely disadvantaged for not having as is most Opportunities in the Middle East its a aprerequisite.

I wish I did one.


Sheep

[bateman]

To: 'giddy up' - Im not sure if that sarcasm was directed to me or in general, but thats why I wrote........

"wait till you get an AIRLINE job, and THEN study something worthwhile".

But you did make a good point without knowing it. Your reply would fit equally well to those who do the Aviation Degrees, and backs up my assertion about wasting your time studying, rather than building hours.

Just in case that was directed at me - Im not flying a C210, Im a Saab captain, and got my command with 2500 hours TT on the basis of my ability (not my degree!!).

To 'sheep guts' - I agree with your point. These carriers are more likely to have recruitment staff that recognise the value of a degree. Not for the crap that was actually studied, but rather for the indication of basic intelligence, ability to learn, and intellectual proactivity.

cheers

[druglord]

dittos bateman, they're nearly essential these days to get an airline job, but they teach you nothing about flying. I've posted this before, but my understanding, in the US anyway, is that airlines rankings in the Fortune500 list is corelated to the number of personnel with bach/mast/phd's. That's the conspiracy theory anyway.

I just think it is unfortunate to disadvantage those who chose another post-secondary school path, all for the sake of ...well whatever it is.

[troppo]

I'd tend to agree with Bateman...
A BAv for a new CPL ain't going to secure a job and does have little recognition outside aviation.
However any degree no matter what it is shows a persons ability to acquire and use knowledge. There will be at some point during any career where having a degree will distinguish you from someone else whether its a BAv or not...however you could suggest that a pilot doing a BAv is putting all his eggs in one basket so to speak. I would recommend doing a degree outside of aviation in business/economics or management...not one of the airy fairy feel good degrees like psychology/arts etc
Even if you are a dedicated and committed pilot that only wants to fly, with the competition around these days a useful degree will either distinguish you from the mob or give you something to fall back on if things dont work out.

ATPL and MBA:ok:

[thinking pilot]

Hey troppo

Do some research before commenting about airy fairy degrees.
It is usually the uneducated who make statements about things they no nothing about.

[troppo]

hehe...i guess it comes down to peoples perceptions doesn't it...glad i got a response to that bit because I was intentionally trying to wind someone up...like I said 'any degree no matter what it is shows ability...'

and by the way it's 'know' not 'no':8

[splatgothebugs]

Degree or a diploma in anything, the point is all they want to see is that you can apply yourself.

Very simple indeed ;)

Smart money however would be on doing something outside of aviation to cover your ass just incase you are unable to fly one day.

Still in NZ, employers would rather see that you have all your ATPL's and then go and do some other study. :ok:

[thinking pilot]

Thinking pilot has failed his spelling test.

Thank you troppo

[flyboy-nz]

Degree or a diploma in anything, the point is all they want to see is that you can apply yourself.

I agree totally , the fact that you have a degree,diploma shows employers that you can commit yourself to something

I don't agree however that if you fail your medical your degree becomes 'useless' , when I look through career magazines and papers most of the recruiters would like to see that you have a qualification higher than bursary etc.

If you for instance provided a copy of your c.v and it said for example that you had completed ue and the had obtained some pilot licences and say the job was for a position with an advertising agency they wouldnt take much notice of the fact that you had achieved such licences. However if you took in your cv and they saw you had a degree even if not totally relevant to the position that you are applying for , it shows you have a achieved a higher level of education and commitment in preparing yourself for the workforce( through there non aviation eyes)

There is nothing stopping you once you have achieved a degree to doing another years study while in GA and adding diffrent qualifications to that degree ie say for instance you get a Bachelor aviation or whathaveyou you could add some advertising papers to it , or some accounting papers to it , or some management papers to it , some medical papers , the list goes on ....

In my opinion there are plenty of advantages to having a degree in avaition.

I also would like to hear some more thoughts about this issue.

FB

[Transition Layer]

I chose an aviation degree because I solely wanted to work in the aviation industry. Obviously flying is my primary goal, but if for some reason I lose my medical or cannot fly for some other reason, I still wish to remain in the industry in some capacity. Nothing else interests me in the slightest.

The course I did had a wide range of subjects, like airline management/economics, engineering, human factors/CRM and touched on other topics like Air Traffic Control and Risk Management.

As far as I'm concerned it gave me a good (but sometimes brief) overview of the entire industry through academic studies, as well as allowing me to complete my flying training in a structured manner at the same time.

If you think you might one day work outside aviation, then sure, a business/marketing/economics/engineering or whatever degree is for you. I might add that these degrees may also help you get a job in aviation, the only problem being that you might have specialised in one particular field.

TL

[splatgothebugs]

Flyboy correct, that aviation degree dosen't become useless however it is a very narrow field in which you can now find employment.

All I'm trying to say is that a business or management degree would give you many more options. When and if you ever decide to get into management (by choice or due loss of medical) the aviation degree is not as much use as one of the above. :ok:

Don't take it the wrong way I'm not knocking anybody, if you have a degree aviation or not you have obviously worked hard to get it ;)

[VH-ABC]

Only speaking for myself here, but when I did my Bachelor of Aviation course the only things I learnt were how to drink and how to manage time, especially around exam time when I'd rather be drinking. Without that degree, however, I wouldn't have been able to get into the Masters of Aviation Management course that I am currently doing - and find excellent... and am learning heaps of stuff that interests me greatly.

I think Bachelor of Aviation courses definately do have their place in our industry, and are just another step along what is hopefully a long career for all of us.:ok:

[Gerard123]

I agree . I am fortunate to be able to take a B.COM Aviation management here in south africa. It's a normal bachelor of business but it has extra work that incorporates air law ,airport management, airline management etc. At the same time it requires you to have at least a com license. Unfortunately its not available as a correspondance course so you'll have to come here and do it. The course is accredited internationally and is hosted by the university of pretoria (the best in our country). The days of getting an engineering degree are gone. Today airlines want someone who understands why management gives them so much trouble and not someone who will be able to do a D-check on your stopover in the canaries.The degree obviously gives you the opportunity to get a desk job in the airline should you lose your medical.

[flyboy-nz]

also once you have a degree no matter what subject it is in , there is the opportunity to add papers and qualifications to it ...

[bateman]

I can't understand why some people think that AVIATION Degrees are nessecary to get into aviation management, if the flying doesnt work out. This is absolute fallacy...

Look at what you are likely to do in the airline management, and then tell me that a B.AV is more relevent than a degree in economics, law or business. ITS NOT.

Second, the 50yo guys who will give you the job in management will most likely have B.Comm's, econ, eng etc etc. They will look at the aviation degree and wonder what it is. It is not an established, respected degree. So if you want to do a degree, do one which is universally respected in ALL businesses.

Just to digress, I firmly believe that the Fortress course is an excellent investment in your aviation interveiw career. I can understand why some people have accused Terry Bristow (the guy who runs the course) as being full of crap. I dont agree, but the 90% that isnt 'crap' is invaluable.

I did the course twice, and havent failed an aviation interview since. It is well worth the money.

cheers

[maxgrad]

Bateman
What is this Fortress course or how do I get info.

[WhiteRat Wannabe]

Gotta agree Bateman re Fortress. A lot don't like the bloke for various reasons but i found it very valuable.

[BCF Breath]

My own view, as someone that has done a few papers, is that what the degree does, is lift your application higher up the pile.:)

[avguy1]

Gee I get sick of people hanging it on degrees. I did one and I've had jobs that it had no relevance to at all. Then again it helped me greatly in others. Sure it doesen't help you much with your stick and rudder. But really stick and rudder aint that hard once you have a few hours under your belt!! ( I think we tend to overate the difficulty of our job sometimes!!)

No regrets

Avguy

[Oktas8]

I've had five "good" (well paying, enjoyable) jobs in my time.

Four I got because I was enthusiastic & had a degree. (Which degree? Not really relevant.)

The other one was a flying job...

But I've advanced more quickly because of being able to do research, talk business-speak, etc.

Some countries make people do a basic science or arts as a first degree (or at least one year of the above) and then allow them to specialise. Good idea I think - makes people get some maturity and experience before committing them to a career path. It worked for me.

O8

[Ang737]

The trend I see both here in this thread and in society in general is that people that dont have will invariably mock
those who have. Those who don't have a degree will run down there more educated counterparts to make themselves
feel better. I say if you get a chance to get a degree why the hell not. I am just about to graduate from my Bachelor of
Aviation and even though there has been minimal practicality in the syllabus, the course has been well worth the
effort. I know if I was an employer I would hire a uni grad solely for the discipline it takes to complete an
undergraduate degree in any field (maybe not arts, sorry couldn't help myself).

Ang ;)

[robair]

I don't believe that a degree will make you a better pilot but it will show that you are capable (Iknow i can't spell) of studying and may help you to advance into an airline or whatever.
I feel that the poeple who rubish degrees are those who are either too lazy or stupid to do one and discorage others from doing one because someone with the degree may get a better job then they will.
I personally are for the degrees. althought they could be better designed course.
That all.

[splatgothebugs]

ANG737, do you want someone to stroke your ego???????????

I know many CFI, check and training Cpts ect that would tell you where to go if you said exactly what you just posted to them. Some of NZ and OZ top pilots got to where they are today with out degrees.

I do agree the day will come when you may need one, however its not the be all and end all. Does anybody here remember that an apprenticeship (sparky, plumber ect) is actually a hell of a lot harder to get than your off the shelf degree.

Food for thought for all of you doing degrees.........you are definately employable if you have a trade under your belt as well as your licences.

splat

[druglord]

Agree with splatthebugs, I've never done an apprenticeship but I imagine that if it's anything like getting a lame's ticket it's a lot harder and more practical and useful than a Aviation degree. Plus I don't see what level of work commitment a degree shows that an apprenticeship doesn't.
Mind you word of advice to an aspiring pilot/lame: if you wanna fly don't let it be known that you have a lames, guess who'll be the last to go flying every time.

[Ski Guru]

then you have done the wrong degree. go to a real uni

[Raingauge]

So Splat, your apprenticeship was a hell of alot harder than your degree. I'm assuming your talking from experience.

If as you say the day will come when you need a degree how can you then write that it's not the be all and end all? If someone has all the requirements for an airline that requires you to have a degree but you don't have one I'm pretty sure a degree would pretty soon become your "be all and end all".....especially if it's a requirement for ALL the airlines.

I'm sure that there are plenty of "top" oz and nz pilots without degrees and have gone onto great things, but remember aviation degrees are a relatively new thing, and probably were not a training option for thoughs guys anyway.

[Ang737]

splatgothebugs

Off the shelf degrees done exist. Done detract from those that have put in the hard work to get one. Sure any qualification is great you can never be overeducated. I am not fishing for an ego stroking and to read that from my thread is f**ked. All I am suggesting is that if you get a chance I highly recommend it.

Sure some of the top OZ pilots didnt have a degree to get where they are. Probably because aviation degrees were not around then, have you considered that...??

Sure a degrees is not the be all and end all... I never suggested for a minute it was, but I put this to you. What would happen if you had no qualifications (degree or trade, etc) and lost you all important medical. Back to stocking shelf at coles wishing you had a qual I would suggest...

[Transition Layer]

splat

"you are definately (sic) employable if you have a trade under your belt as well as your licences."

Why the hell would being a sparky/plumber help me be a better pilot? Do you reckon a bloke employing sparkies sifts through resumes and see's a bloke with a CPL and instantly gives him a job???

I agree that a trade gives you life experience, but there's plenty of other ways to do it other than completing an apprenticeship.

And Ang737, I am also an aviation degree graduate, but quite clearly spelling/grammar obviously wasn't a requirement to get into your degree. Nice effort... :hmm:

TL

[compressor stall]

I think there are two issues here.

1. Is making the effort to do a uni degree worth it?

2. If you decide yes to 1. above, then why do an "aviation degree" when you could do a different, more widely recognised course. (B.Sc etc)

My thoughts are:

1. Entirely up to the individual. It does not make a better stick and rudder pilot. Some people have better communication skills and maturity after 3 years of uni. Some, like me, wanted to continue my education in areas of interest that have absolutely nothing to do with aviation. Some employers like this, some don't. It may help you though if you lose your medical to gain non aviation employment etc.

2. My limited understanding (correct me if I am wrong) is that the bulk of many of the basic aviation degrees is completing the theory for PPL to IFR to ATPL. If you do your training part time, then you'll have done these subjects anyway! A separate degree in say Science, Arts, Economics from say Melb, Monash, UNE, QUT, etc will give you well recognised edutcation both within and outside aviation. If you want to study further in the aviation field, then consider a Masters in Aviation for which you would have the prereq's if you have Bachelors degree from a recognised tertiary instution and industry experience.

CS

[Seabreeze]

There is one organisation that has clearly signalled that an aviation degree is best for their employees, and that is the Australian Defence Forces.

ADFA introduced a Bachelor of Technology (Aviation) a couple of years ago to provide a consistent and thorough aviation education before sending off their personnel to pilot training. This restructure followed many years of accepting potential pilots with a variety of degrees.

[Keg]

CS, I'll take on question 2. The short answer is that no other degree was going to give me that much Credit Transfer for my industry experience.

I'm majoring in aviation education which has been very useful both in my employment with QF and in my hobby with Staff Training in the Air Force Cadets. Finally though, it gives me an 'in' into any Masters that I want. If I combine it with a Dip Business and head towards a Masters of something, there are then LOTS of options available if I lose my medical, QF goes belly up, etc, etc.

[Ang737]

Transition Layer apologises for the lack of proof reading...

I am with Compressor on this one. Sure any degree doesn't necessarily make you a better pilot and if you have the option of studying a field that interests you then go for it.

I want to hear the thoughts of employers out there and in particular their horror stories or otherwise in employing uni grads...

Ang ;)

[splatgothebugs]

Raingauge, ang737 and TL

The point is simply this, degree or apprenticeship it shows a level of dedication to something which an employer is looking for.

It is much easier to find a job outside of aviation if you have a trade, yes you can also get one with the wright degree but I doubt that will happen with an aviation degree as quick as you would like.

I'm not knocking degrees in general only people who think that because they have a degree are in some way better than those who don't.

ANG737, '' those who don't have a degree will tend to run down their more EDUCATED counterparts to make themselves feel better.

I applogise if I read that line incorrectly but it sounded to me like you are running down your counterparts without degrees. Just because you have a degree it dosen't make you more educated, there are many other ways to educate yourself. ie trades and courses ect.

Raingauge, sorry bad piece of writing I was suggesting that a background education away from aviation will be the requirement in the future.

see pms

splat

[Ang737]

Splat

Agreed... !!!! Any qualification shows dedication and discipline to achieve it.

Ang ;)

[compressor stall]

G'Day Keg!


I agree with what you have to say but to further your quote:

Finally though, it gives me an 'in' into any Masters that I want

So does a non aviation degree! Which was my point.

CS

[druglord]

ski guru,
unless you've done both i don't think you're in a position to comment on what's hard. i'm speculating from what i've seen lames do.

[Transition Layer]

splat,

I'm not knocking degrees in general only people who think that because they have a degree are in some way better than those who don't.

Neither am I mate, as long as I consider myself better off with a degree than without one, that's all that matters.

Cheers,
TL

[Keg]

Yeah CS but no other degree was going to give me two of the three years credit transfer!! :ok:

Perhaps you're right. Maybe doing an Aviation degree straight out of school isn't the best but if you want to fly, why not? Your CPL makes up about half of it and then the rest of the degree is 'handy'. That HAS to be better than doing a B Eng or B Comm and trying to do your CPL on the side doesn't it?

Anyway...

[Ski Guru]

druglord,
alot more than just aviation, and i wasn't refering to lames at all just the degrees.

powder to the people

[compressor stall]

G'Day Keg :ok:

That's my point - doing an aviation degree you really only have half a degree more than someone who learnt to fly and did their subjects on weekends.

Doing a non aviation degree you have an entire degree more - and (provided it's not a graduate diploma in Rugby Studies as Mrs Stall found in a UNSW course guide the other day!) you will still have the prereqs for M. Av entry.

Horses for courses!

CS :O

[poteroo]

The Bar is Being Lifted As We Comment!


Recent newspaper articles indicate that a Basic degree will soon be the minimum to empty the rubbish bins, or do the wash-up. Employers are looking for MBA's and PhD's.

There's no reason to think that aviation is any different to other industries.

Reason? Everyone is going to Uni. Also, uni's are offering all sorts of degrees, of contrasting degrees of difficulty. There have been suggestions that standards are also dropping - driven by the 'overseas student x export income' mentality of the Uni's.

There are 'hard' and 'soft' degrees, and it would seem that business studies, aviation, and arts fall into the softies. They are like the proverbial a/h - everyone's got one! Science or economics would seem to be the degree to do as a basic, because they will open up more post grad or 2nd degree opportunities. There will soon be thousands of ATPL aspirants with soft aviation degrees, but few with others.

Will having a harder and different degree swing the job? Maybe not - the employer may consider you 'too well qualified' for a flying job - and so more likely to leave for better offers.

It's true that many have made it to the top without tertiary education - but the times they are a changing. I agree that having a degree is no indication of one's ability as a pilot - but I'd not go so far as to say there is an inverse relationship between them either.

If you're young, and still able to learn, then IMHO, you need to keep studying, because you cannot know what opportunity lies around the corner - just waiting for someone with your particular skill-set to grab it! Just what you should study is more difficult to recommend.

cheers,

[bateman]

RV6 - Some great points. Having done a B.Comm at UQ, I can tell you it is a 'soft' degree. I was pissed 3 nights a week and still passed, so it really wasnt that hard. Put Arts and aviation into the soft degree basket as well.

Keg - Go and read my first post (topic starter). For those who want to FLY, a BAv is a waste of time. FLY....as in sit in a plane and fly the fcuker. Not sit in a qantas office in sydney and count beans. There will be plenty of time to do a degree and count beans after your medical goes down the toilet (touch wood). But if you want to be a pilot, dont worry about whether your associate diploma in aviation will get you credit for a Masters of aviation bean counting......... get in a plane and fly.

Im getting all worked up now, Id better stop.

bate

[DOK001]

For anyone who in any way wants a non-biast and non -sceptical view of aviation degree's, pick up the October issue of Aircraft and Aerospace Asia Pacific.

The article gives aviation degrees a very good review, with the UNSW degree- who Ms. Stall says is a graduate diploma in rugby studies, coming out on top with the highest UAI of 80.5 and a syllabus dictated by an industry steering group made predominantly of Qantas management.

Quote from the article:
"... if you know that you want to persue a career in aviation you may as well persue an aviation-based degree to increase your attractiveness to potential employers.'

You don't need an aviation degree to get into the industry, but it shows that you have:

1. The aptitude to do the degree,
2. The commitment to a degree who's benefits are not immediately relevant,
3. Skills that will become more relevant as you gain more experience.
4. Something to fall back on in case you loose your job or cant fly for medical reasons.
5. The piece of paper. Skills are much harder to prove without evidence.

Remember, the airline views you as a long term INVESTMENT.

The skills you gain in the degree will benefit you most a little later in your career and the airlines know this. It also shows that you view yourself as being a long term investment.

There is a reason why airlines want degrees- aviation and others- and ultimately that counts more than someones views on PPRuNe, including my own.


Go and read the article.

[Ang737]

Well said thanks DOK.....

Ang ;)

[splatgothebugs]

DOK001,

Good post, Makes one think......................however number 4. is an interesting comment, I personally would have thought a degree outside of aviation would be a little better for that one.

That aside, good post makes me see a slightly different side.

splat :D

[The Bullwinkle]

DOK001
Well said.

[chicken6]

Splat

It depends on whether you would still want to work in the industry, doesn't it? Losing a medical isn't the same as losing the love of flight.

I did the B. Av and then a psych diploma for the backup, still love the idea of planes in general, and if I lost a leg or an eye or an arm I would still like to at least have a legitimate excuse to get behind the pilots if not the controls.

If an airline hires me (should read WHEN;) ) they have my permission to keep me on if I lose my medical.:ok:

[Mount'in Man]

You young folk seem to have too much time on your hands arguing about the merits of advancing your knowledge in your chosen career. Back when I was a spring chicken we didn’t have the option of aviation degrees. Spent most of our spare time helping the mechanics strip super chargers and changing burnt cylinders. We grabbed any bit of info that came our way, after all there was a lot to learn and not much about in the way of training.

Working your way up to be a fleet manager or chief pilot required a lot of skill and a sound record of good decision making. You couldn’t expect much help outside your organisation either. The competition weren’t about to tell you their screw-ups. They just hoped that you made the same mistakes.

This day and age you don’t need to learn the hard way, just go to college and learn how Rollin King and Herb Kelleher got Southwest together. Check out the goof-ups that led to the demise of some of the greatest airlines in the States after deregulation. I bet some of you guys fly Part 121 in tired old burners that are almost as old as you are. And I’ll bet your boss never went to college and did an aviation degree. A good aviation manager uses every tool at his disposal to cut costs and beat the competition. Old airplanes don’t help. The new stuff are more fuel-efficient, enjoy longer TBO’s and carry more passengers per dollar seat mile, and backed with warranties.

Study CRM and aviation safety and see how to avoid the headlines. Took Tenerife to swing the airlines into CRM. Human factors had to be conceived back then, now you learn it at college. If aviation students didn't do doctorates on aviation studies then CRM would be left to a a bunch of shrinks with no idea how to manage flight duties or design cockpits.

Don’t know too many accountants who study medicine, unless they want a career change. So why become a pilot and study law or languages? If you want to be a computer geek or a lawyer then get out of the airplane and give your seat over to someone more deserving. And don’t knock the other guy because he is studying aviation, he might be your boss someday and run a damn fine airline that ensures your security and good salary. Or are some of you folk just trying to keep the playing field at your level?

________________

Mount'in Man
"I love mount'in women."

[Eurocap]

Having joined the aviation industry many years ago, when degrees tended to be few and far between, and nearing the end of what has been an illustrious and active career, I decided to investigate the possibility of carrying out some extra-mural study with one of NZ's more popular universities.

I asked the person representing the university all the appropriate questions about completing a BAv majoring in Flying and was told that with my ATPL and flying experience that I couldn't do that but if I really wanted to complete a BAv, I could complete one majoring in Airline Management.

The University Rep also said that with my experience and qualifications that I should look at a MAv. When I asked how I would go about this, the response was, well actually we dont have these yet, but we do run MBA courses which are very interesting and where you meet some very high powered people from the aviation industry. When asked how much it would cost I was informed that it would be $20,000.

Now being near the end of my career, $20,000 is a lot of dosh that is going to be far more value in my wallet than some letters after my name and so after great deliberation I decided that if this extra mural study was only going to give me letters after my name then I reckoned that ATPL would have to suffice.

Cheers,

Eurocap ATPL.

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[splatgothebugs]

Chicken6, I see what your saying and agree, it would be nice to stay in aviation if you lost your medical (god forbid). However these jobs are few and far between (as previously discussed) and a management degree could be as much use to you.

I spose at the end of the day it dosen't matter what degree you do as long as you feel it is the correct one for you. :)

[4Greens]

A few points:

1. In any job situation a degree puts you further up in the queue.

2. An aviation degree is becoming a requirement.

3. Present management pilots do not generally have degrees so there may be some prejudice.

4. Future management pilots will undoubtedly require degrees.

5. An aviation degree teaches useful aviation skills such as an increased awareness of aviation safety and CRM skills. Such knowledge may even save your bacon!

[Raingauge]

Azzurri,
you are a knob.

But I'm sure with your imagination and interllectual means you've already figured that out.:rolleyes:

[dodgybrothers]

In case a candidate does not have HSC maths and physics, does QF accept an aviation degree in lieu of ?

Then it could be handy.....dodgy

[splatgothebugs]

We are all acting like a dog chasing its tail, really, nothing new has come up on this thread now for a week or so and if it does that person is knocked straight away.

Come on guys/girls shall we just play friendly on this one and agree to disagree on the topic. :D

splat

[Raingauge]

Azzurri,
I'm sure I'd be offended if I knew what the hell you just called me. I'll just stay with the basics.....ya knob.

[czechmate]

Dodgy,

QF will accept the degree instead of HSC maths and physics only if you do maths and physics in first year (or any year). You have to prove the course was sufficiently challenging (not hard)

:ok:

Czechmate

[dwnunderblunderer]

Guys just because you got a degree dosent ness mean you can apply yourself (except maybe in astro physics or some really hard sciencey type stuff that you need to know long division for). I spent four years flatting with uni-students in Palmy and any thought that these guys could apply themselves more than the grunts up the road at the Army camp or the plummer fishing beer cans out of toilet after last nights party is ridiculous. It is worth more to an employerer if you have spent the last 10 years slaving in a crap job to pay foy your CPL, Instructor, IFR, MEIR. Becuase it will mean you know how hard you had to work for a single flying hour. If you did an Av degree it meant that you got suckered into a glossy booklet because it said you were basically at the top of the food chain when it came to gettin g a job. Well guess what happens to your C.V when it goes to the airlines who are supposed to be flocking to give you jobs? It goes right to the bottom of the pile with everybody else, because the guy hiring dose'nt have a degree in Aviation and resents probably that someone would think they are better than he because they do.

[Ang737]

dwnunderblunderer what a narrow minded attitude you have to think that anyone would consider themselves above a hirer in an airline by virtue of that fact they hold a degree. I resent and I am sure most would that you boldly stereotype uni grads as not having done the hard yards.

Take it on a case by case basis and I am sure that you will see otherwise. So what if someone doesn't have a degree, I agree with you on that point. As said previously, having a degree does NOT give you a passage to a left hand seat or make you a better pilot over others. It also does not necessarily make you a worse pilot.

So what if someone has done the hard yards and payed for every single flying hour but also has a degree, are you going to mock them too for a choose they made to complete a degree.

Ang ;)

[DOK001]

Thanks Ang, well said. :ok:

Not everyone who has a degree gets the easy life. Yet again, more stereo-types.

Dwnunderblunderer, having a degree does not imply good airmanship or good flying skills, it implies that you have a DEGREE. Your skills will be tested when you apply for a job and it is highly likely that an aviation degree will develop your skills to a higher level, increasing your chances of getting hired and making you a safer pilot. (See the post from 4 Greens earlier)

And Azzurri, I dont know where you get your info from but respectfully you are quite wrong my friend. Maybe your degrees in Italy / the U.S. are 'fluff' but over here they are regarded by those in the know as being highly worthwhile for both pilots and management.

Anyway, as someone previously said (my appologies for not referencing a name) this thread is going nowhere. Why dont we all go and do some research then we'll start up a new thread in a few months. :D Just jokes.

[dwnunderblunderer]

Well fair enough then if you think I'm narrow minded, after re-reading my post it would read very narrow minded if I had have never had anything to do with these people who complete degrees. But, I have had a bit to do with them in GA and I have had this discussion with NZ based op's managers. I would never think that a grad would be less of a handler and I am pretty sure I never implied this either. Any pilot who would make an assumption on somebodies flying skills based on there choosing to do a degree would be wrong. What I was trying to say is employers want someone who paid for AT LEAST the bulk of there flying. Lets face it most grads borrowed the lot of the govt. If you want ring and ask the ops man at Ealgle, Origion, Air Nelson, Vincient, etc etc, what they reckon.
The prob with this media (internet forums) is there is no tone to the points made by individuals. Most of us don't really want you to resent our comments but take them with the same gran of salt we take yours. But we all know this. (esp the grads who have completed Bus Comms papers as part of their degrees.)
If you have a degree good on you (I am serious and not cynical). Of course you have something worth while, but it dose not make you more attractive as an FO to an employer over someone who has worked for 5 years to earn 75 thousand dollars to pay for it themselves.

[Ace Biggles]

:O In reference to this topic; I think we should all grow up and try to live in the real world of aviation rather than commenting on whether there are 12 eggs or a dozen eggs in the container we buy at the supermarket. Move on folks.

[The Bullwinkle]

dwnunderblunderer

With your obvious lack of english skills, particularly spelling, it is probably fair to say that you also lack the ability to complete a degree, and therefore, like most individuals who suffer from insecurity, your only defence is to attack those who do have the skills that you do not.


What I was trying to say is employers want someone who paid for AT LEAST the bulk of there flying.

Are you an employer? I didn't think so. So what gives you the ability to espouse what employers want.

The way you judge others such as plumbers (yes, it has a "b" in it), or those who joined the army is extremely narrow-minded. They obviously have had to apply themselves to achieve success in their chosen professions.

You degrade their choice of occupation, as though they are second-class citizens.

I have done my share of the hard yards, and at the same time, I have earned my degree. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth, as you would suggest. I have worked hard for what I have, and I realise that somebody as uneducated as you appear to be should not be allowed to devalue my achievements, or the achievements of other similar individuals.

[dwnunderblunderer]

Hey Richard head, I spent 10 years in the forces you f-nuckle. Some of my best mates have degrees and I have the better part of one myself. I expect to complete it sometime in my mid thirties, not because i'm thick but because I'm gonna f*ucken pay for it my self the way people used to do. F*ck your spelling too num(no "B")nuts.

[Keg]

Just goes to show that ten years of being an 'officer and a gentleman' as well as a nearly completed tertiary education has added nothing to the manners and constructing arguments skills! :( ;)

[dwnunderblunderer]

Alright fine. You guys win. I apoligise for being rude. When someone accuses me of trying to belittle soldiers and pum(b)ers I get pissed off. I have nothing but respect for any man/woman who works hard at no matter what they do. Hard work is what should be done to earn the good things in life. I have been there done that and still doing it. There is just too many kids on fully funded student loans getting handouts and then claiming to be better than me cause they have a bit of paper. If you my annoyanceat this disturbing then I would suggest you are in the minority. Sorry once again for hurting anyones feelings. :8

[dragchute]

dwnunderblunderer

A nice apology.

By the way I did an Aviation degree at age fifty because I felt that I might learn something…and I did. Surprising the different light such a degree sheds on your chosen craft. You tend to look at management issues from alternative perspectives instead of following the flow. Most of the knockers shoot aviation students down because they themselves don’t have the incentive to study further or fear graduates will move into the better jobs. Line pilots will always be in demand and a degree won’t make a lot of difference if they have the flying skills and take the time to keep up with the ‘nuts and bolts’ theory. A pilot with an aviation degree may reinforce his commitment to the job in the eyes of a hiring manager and secure an advantage. He may also progress from the line to a management role where he will be better able to reinforce the lot for the guys left on the line.

As for the young people ‘bludging on the government’ I would like to put forward another side. My own lad chose a degree course in aerospace engineering. Every dollar I opt to contribute to his education will have already been taxed at around forty-nine cents before payment to the educator. He therefore studied using the HECS system. I would like to have been in a better financial position and able to support him, but on the other hand I think he prefers to be independent. When he graduates next month he will enter the employment arena with a substantial debt to repay to the government. The aviation students you refer to will be in the same boat, repaying a loan for a degree that the knockers call useless.

[disco_air]

I'm sure its agreed that you dont need a degree if all you're going to be doing is ag-spraying etc etc & as mentioned before, stick & rudder skill ain't that hard! (I mean no offence to those who do it well)

However Aviation specific degrees introduce you to areas that are very relevant and useful... i.e CRM, Human Factors & Aviation Business/Economics & Safety Management.

I work in a small seaplane charter company and already use these skills all the time, along with all the other stuff like carting 44gal drums around.... and I havent finished my degree yet!

Sure, a more general degree will be useful too, but to date, engineers dont study Human Factors, and its a fairly vital consideration in their field!

Don't knock it 'til you try it.... and maybe not as much in GA, but an aviation degree will put you ahead of someone who doesnt have one.

[bateman]

I agree, an aviation degree will put you ahead of someone who doesnt have one. But take the 3 years and the money and put it towards experience, or ratings and you will be way ahead of somebody who spent their 3 years doing the B.Av.

[Ang737]

Hi All

I heard on the news this morning that the federal government in their infinant wisdom have given unis the green light to charge an additional 25% for fees and they now have the ability to legally reserve one third of the places to full fee paying students.

If it wasn't expensive and hard enough to get a degree before, it is now. The education system is becoming more and more like the US system where there are those that have and those that don't. If you have a fat pocket then the world your oyster. If not then join the queue with the rest of middle class Oz busting their guts to get ahead (one word)...

Thats my gripe...:mad:

Ang ;)

[ROB-x38]

I'm in the middle of an aviation degree having made the decision that it's worthwhile. Whether or not remains to be seen.

I expect to complete it sometime in my mid thirties, not because i'm thick but because I'm gonna f*ucken pay for it my self the way people used to do.

There is just too many kids on fully funded student loans getting handouts and then claiming to be better than me cause they have a bit of paper.

To start attacking students' source of funding to complete any tertiary education is ridiculous and has nothing to do with this 'discussion'. Whether you pay for a course with daddy's money, after working in the supermarket for 5 years or with your winning lotto ticket is irrelevant. It's a LOAN not a HANDOUT.

[disco_air]

True, 3 years of experience and ratings will put you ahead too, but what about both? It can be done.

And what about if you're in a very small aviation business? All the hours and ratings in the world won't bring you business or necessarily keep it safe. This is where academic education such as marketing or safety management incorporated into an aviation degree is applied.

[Monkey Magic]

Right on disco.

Pilots are ultimately in the business of safe aircraft operations, so a degree comprising of flight systems knowledge, aerodynamics, safety management, human factors and other CRM issues and a small amount of airline operations would be ideal.

Hang on........ isn't that what many current degrees offer??

The degrees are relatively new (6 or so years) so I'm sure with a bit of time and industry reccomendation they will become more and more relevant. Like anything it will take time to mature.

:ok:

[pilot4life]

To all those pilots, or wannabees, who shun degrees or the like and believe that because most current airline captains have trained the 'traditional' way that this must be the most effective - wake up!!

Welcome to the aviation industry. An industry subject to the most dramatic upsets over any negative trend in the world economy! Every month at least one significant airline is force to reduce staff numbers, and although they may recover, it might take many months or years. What would you do in that time. Now, there is nothing I would rather do than fly for an airline, but when the crunch comes, an income is an income.

Also, every major airline in North America requires a college/university degree as a pre-req, without it you don't have a chance and you have abandoned the chance to fly within the largest aviation region in the world, and in this industry every chance counts. If the US did it yeaterday, the rest of the world will do it tomorrow.

I respect all pilots for their relentless efforts to fulfil a dream, regardless of training, private or university, 13months or 3 / 4 years. Everyone has their reasons, learn from others success and pass your knowledge along, rather than knock.

pilot4life