C-130J broken engines?

[In Tor Wot]

Posted on Jane's:

'The UK Royal Air Force's (RAF's) fleet of 25 nearly new C-130J transport aircraft has been hit by a chronic engine problem that is forcing the service to migrate engines from aircraft to aircraft in order to maintain mission readiness rates.'

I'd heard some stories about the engine management system but is this also something to do with a 'spares' issue as well?

[ZH875]

Nope, its not a spares issue, they have lots of spare broken engines!

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Gossip from the crewroom/workface/'orses mouth...

...is that they are also very short of engine stands to put the chronically challenged engines on.

Nowadays a highly paid consultant and computer will work out how many engines stands you will need by using a formula involving

Number of aircraft on fleet
Projected flying hours per month
Hours between servicing
Life of component parts

and so on

Trouble with these plans is that they're all bollocks


Heroic endeavours by the groundcrew though. An engine change on a C130 J could involve three aircraft. One aircraft to place the broken engine on, another to steal a good engine off, and your original aircraft.

Progress

I have no axe to grind with the C130 J but I'm happy to remain on the C130 Klassic...now being quietly and modestly refered to as

'THE LONG TERM FLEET'

[T_Handle]

It's not and engine management system fault or even a lack in spares, or even the fact that the formular is b0110cks.

The simple fact its that we are burning out turbines far quicker than expected. There is a mod to fix the turbines it is just taking time to fit to 25 x 4 plus spares!

whilst this mod programme is underway there are proceedures in place to keep the ac flying to the rates we have all become accustomed to - which is still higher than the planned rate and higher than the k (not that this is starting another k/j issue as it is not, both ac are very capable and both do a great job)

T:}

[Yeller_Gait]

As an outsider looking in at the K/J issue, it does seem as tho the RAF has not done the best possible job in the procurement of the J.

As an ex-Nimrod type i can put up with the BAE f***ups that we have all become accustomed to, but I thought that the rest of the RAF was better placed than that. ......Perhaps not !!!!!!

[StopStart]

I’m not entirely sure that all the blame for the “problems” of the J can be placed at the door of the RAF. Many of the teething troubles that the J experienced were down to build quality and software issues.

The RAF did miss a trick when the actual design specs of the aircraft were being laid down. I suspect that the majority of the design/specification/whatever team from the RAF were pilots and they spent the money available on the toys they wanted. As far as I’m concerned, as a driver airframes, it’s marvellous and I’ve got lots of toys to play with. If the J were a Fisher Price Pilot Activity Centre then this would be a splendid piece of procurement. Sadly it’s a transport aircraft and as such the 1990s J should have a better and more capable freight bay than it’s older 1960s sibling. A major trick was missed by not having a built in winch, better freight handling kit/locks and a better floor.
This is not to say that the J is any less capable, day to day, than the K – far from it - only that the ALMs and the Movers job on the J should be a lot easier given 30+ years of supposed progress.

My understanding of the actual contractual side of the J was that the contracts were, in a business sense, well written. The RAF didn’t get shafted when Lockheed delayed and delayed on initial deliveries and penalty clauses written in saw the RAF/MoD get paid compensation for said delays. Unfortunately, the elephant that is Lockheed has a long memory. I believe I’m right in saying that as the DA for the J any mods and purchases have to go through Lockheed. Therefore when we want to mod the aircraft at all Lockheed will happily charge ridiculous fees to claw back the money they lost in fines. Consequently it is therefore very difficult to get things like DAS, armour, external tanks etc etc.

The current engines issue is, I believe, down to the supplier of the aircraft rather than those of the engine. The engines were delivered as spec'd as I understand it. The situation is indeed a bit daft and needs rectifying soonest. I sincerely hope that there is no feet dragging over sorting out the required mods (stronger turbine blades).

Day to day the J is an extremely capable aircraft that has tremendous potential. Our clearances for doing “interesting” things (hush my mouth for suggesting that route flying isn’t interesting) are coming through slowly but surely. Our friends at QinetiQ do make everything vastly more drawn out and expensive so it all takes much longer for everything to come on stream. The OEU are doing a lot of good stuff with the J. The first student TAC courses are going through now with a finish date early next year. These courses would have finished already were it not for the shenanigans earlier this year out east.

The capabilities of the J mean that both our regular “operational” dets are filled by Js. The J in Afghanistan regularly operates off natural surfaces and high altitude airfields without problems. The Js in Basrah operate year round into high threat environments and have proven the capability of their DAS fit on several occasions. Yes, the K now has a more capable DAS fit coming online now although it’s interesting to note that the nice new toy at the back of the K was actually destined for and funded by the J…. We have to wait a little longer for ours now. Why? You tell me.

Yes, the K has received lots of other new toys recently. This was again I suspect due to a) funding and b) a mental inertia by those on the planning and procuring side who don’t have the ability to see beyond the way they’ve always done it the last 30 years. The Lockheed issue rears it’s head again here though as any desire by RAF plc to mod the J must go through them. A new fit of lots of shiny toys to the J would have been extortionately expensive through Lockheed and when Messrs Heath and Robinson ltd (Suppliers of Lashed Up Goods To HM Forces) offered to retrofit the new kit to the K in exchange for a copy of Razzle and a slab of Carling Export (or the monetary equivalent thereof) the RAF, quite rightly, bit their hand off. The K is now pretty well fitted out for joining in the next great air battle and good luck to them. Oh, and you’re more than welcome to the Basrah det too – not sure you’d enjoy the summer there though ;)

There are a surprising amount of people further up the food chain who would happily see the J wither on the vine and die. Why? Again, you tell me. Short sightedness, bitterness at the loss of particular trade on the flight deck, who knows? It is a shame because, like I said, the C130J is an aircraft with a lot of potential.

Notwithstanding the recent ab-initios we’ve begun to receive I can safely say that everyone on the J has flown the K. I believe I’m also fairly safe when I say that nobody on the K has flown the J. All the pilots I know (myself included) think the J is a great aircraft to operate and would never go back to the K. Make of that what you will.
Some ALMs are disappointed at the speed at which the TAC stuff is coming on the line and have expressed the view that they would sometimes rather they had remained on the K doing TAC work. I must admit that in some cases I can see their point; we have some very keen, capable and enthusiastic Loadies that should be being given TAC courses and soon. I don’t want to get into politics so I’ll leave it at that ;)
I know the J GEs are working very hard at the moment and indeed have been all year. They are undermanned and are unhappy at the way they are managed compared to the K GEs. But again, the ones I’ve spoken to have said they would not want to go back to the K (feel free to correct me here though!)

This isn’t a PR puff for the J model. Most people that know me know that I would be hard pushed to give less of a toss about most things. Why then spend my Sunday morning typing out this nonsense then? A lot of people read Pprune and are, it would seem, happy to form opinions based on what they read on here. Much of what is written on here, about the J certainly, isn’t particularly objective nor is it particularly informed.
Admittedly this is a rumour network and such half truths will appear on here and I think the great K/J debate will continue in it’s own uninformed way on Pprune for a long time to come. I would hope however that outsiders can see the above as informed opinion from someone with no axe to grind. I would happily welcome any informed comment from K operators but really I don’t see any point. It’s not a competition as far as I’m aware…or have I missed something? :)

:E

[flipster]

SS

Common-sense is a rare thing in the present-day RAF and especially at that secret airbase in Wilts. However, you seem to be speaking some - you are definitely not promotion material, I presume. If you are, you won't get far - they beat it out of you with ACRs, ICSC and paperwork!


I coudn't agree more about your sentiments - both ac are apparently on the same side and should be 'working together to get the job done' - as a famous builder once said! But I think anyone reading this site would have been hard pressed to believe this J/k thing has been anything less than a particularly puerile willy-waving contest, not helped by higher level political shenanigans!

I rarely comment on PP but have done in the past to plead with those that insist on waving their tackle in public to desist when 'our boys and girls' backsides are being shot at. Banter is fine but some of the stuff I have seen has been unpleasant, personal and not worthy of anyone I know at the aforementioned base - all very sad really! Especially, since both ac types and their crews have been in harm's way more times than i care to think about over the last 3 and a half years. I am so relieved that we 've been sooooooooo lucky not to have lost an ac or 2 (along with the valuable pax and crew) since the beginning of The War Against Terrorism! However, at last now most ac are getting the protection they deserve - IMHO FDA and DIRCM/flares should be expanded to all AT/AAR/EW ac - like the USAF are trying to do!

However, there are only sufficient UK funds to cover some ac - sadly. You are right to point out that QQ and Locktight Inc have the J over a barrel - which is probably why money has gone, for now, to the Klassic - that doesn't make the J a bad platform nor the K any better or worse. Still, the K crews have more people to party when they return home unscathed!

Best of Luck.

flipster

ps I have actually spoken to pilots who WOULD consider a swop back to the K but then again, my willy is very big.... (not)!!!!!:ugh:

[StopStart]

flipster

I suspect your PS may be correct actually and that my assessment of pilot affection towards the J may have been a little unclear! ;)

People on the sqns are disappointed at the speed at which the Tac courses and clearances are progressing and I know that there are many folk, myself included, who would sell their souls to do some more “interesting” flying. My little LL experience on the K consisted of smashing round the UKLFS every now and then, pulling the wings off round the FI and lobbing harness packs at penguins. Nowhere near enough to make me an expert by any stretch but enough to make me know what I’m missing. I suspect those J guys who were properly TS qualified on the K may indeed be gnawing at the HUD in frustration now. I imagine people who’ve expressed a “desire” to return to the K have done so out a wish to do some interesting tac flying rather than a desire to return to the K as a platform. Or perhaps I’m speaking out of turn….

As I understand it I think myself and most of my current contemporaries on the J have missed the boat on Tac Cses given course dates and tour review dates. This is very disappointing for all of us but it’s life I guess; 13 years in the RAF, 2.5 operational tours and the rest training, holding and generally being dicked about has left me with no illusions about the job! :)
That said, I still stand by what I said in my previous post with a slight amendment for clarity; the majority of the J pilots I know would not wish to go back to the K :D :D ;)

PS. At least all this glass cockpit time will set me up nicely for flying aluminium people tubes around the world in a few years time :)

[Grimweasel]

After flying on the J for the first time of friday I must confess to how impressed I was. There seems to be a massive surge of power instantly when needed. It seems to be a lot less bumpy when flying in the weeds too. And best of all there is a large square window on the para door, with a seat to gaze out of for the 3 hours of valley bashing. Luckily for us we get to work with both the K /J and I now look forward to flying on either. Both sets of j/k crew are very professional and I think that all senseless J/K slagging should end here. As the TAC side comes on line then so the attributes of the J shall shine thru.
As Stop Start has said, it seems a shame that the greater powers are happy to see the J fall by the wayside. Must be Nav's as SS said!!
I cant quite see that the J will be able to perform all the tasks of the K tho as the floor is so different. MSP's and boat systems need to be radically changed and I'm not so sure that the cash is in the system for it. Prehaps we should have used the Skydel floor to give the J greater flex. in terms of TAC roles. As has been said before it's just such a shame that there wasn't more input in the design phase from the LM/Movers/AD types.

[flipster]

SS

Quite right - there is only so much straight and level one can do even if it is to far-off places - especially if others can hoot 'n' roar around at LL. While I have had my fun, the hootin'-and-a-roarin' doesn't make up for:

a. Lack of quality time with the family/pastime/hobby etc.

b. The continued lack of proper trg in a real ac (i.e. live Air Drop, EW, evasion and NVG LL for all) - if that were ever possible.

The last is going to remain unlikely as DTMA will always steal our trg ac for the route-i-toot stuff.

I suspect that the best we will ever achieve is 'Super Fluffy' stuff for the sharp-end and NVG assist for the rest of us with minimal EW input. There will probably be only enough ac (J or K) on the trg prog to keep small pools of peeps qual'd in the slightly more esoteric stuff.

Add the rediculous manning levels we are being forced to work with and it all adds up to damn-all fun, bl00dy hard working regimes, and plenty of niff-naff! I suspect that the sinking ship will keep on sinking - it breaks my heart!

[I_stood_in_the_door]

gw,

well put old boy. fine ac is the j but why oh why dont we just adopt the us aerial delivery techniques and the square window wouldnt be needed by your fine self!


keep the klassic for the good stuff and let the j do all the other stuff (not a fuse for further debate!)

rigger!!

lead, follow or get out of the f**cking way!

:ok:

[highveldtdrifter]

StopStart,

Good posts. The J cargo compartment is essentially an E model, because that is what we asked for. the RAF thought they could superimpose the Beverley/K skydel role equipment and Blackburn winch in it (for gods sake why only knows). This turned out to be impractible. We decided not to get the advanced cargo handling system on offer, as well as external tanks, DAS etc. That said, there is nothing wrong with the basic US C130 floor, being easier to role change than the K. It would be fantastic if we were allowed to use US airdrop equipment, but QinetiQ would not clear it to the required standard. Take CDS for example, a perfectly acceptable (in military terms) resupply airdrop system`in use with several airforces since the 1960's, is not considered safe enough by todays standards. Therefore, they have to re-invent the wheel before the J can use it.

The main problem is that our middle/upper management do not understand modern software driven ac. Wait till they try to change anything on the A400, the J will seem a bargain.

A senior RAAF officer, and a J enthusiast, recently said that modern ac do not save money, just offer more capability. The J and A400 will be expensive to tweek (software) but in the end provide a quantum leap in capability. That assumes that their airships allow the capability to be exploited.

[T_Handle]

Well said Drifter

T:}

[propulike]

Drifter

How well put! It is EXTREMELY frustrating to know that the aircraft I fly is capable of so much more than it is permitted to do. The 'useful' clearances have almost all been issued retrospectively, once the Captain and Crew at the time have done the job that HAS to be done and forced the issue. The aircraft is now roughly 4years old - that's over 10% of its service life (guessed at 35years like the current ones - not a number designed to start a b!tch-fest). The delays are mind-boggling, anyone in charge without an axe to grind would WANT an asset to do as much as possible - surely?

[scroggs]

From my own limited involvement with the J, back in '96-'98, and as an interested spectator of the procurement programme before that, I can confirm much of what SS and Drifter say. The original requirement was 'to keep the C130 freight bay in service until 20XX'. A number of options were considered, most of which involved refurbishing the C130K (which would probably have included a glass, two-man flight deck). Lockheed's proposal to sell us the J was essentially a speculative offer to achieve the ASR with a new aeroplane even though one hadn't specifically been sought.

The J that Lockheed offered was a far different animal to the one they'd proposed a few years earlier (anyone remember the HTTB?), which promised a much greater leap in avionic and aerodynamic technology than was finally included. They also kicked and screamed throughout the project definition and pre-production stages against including anything that might increase their costs. For example, many minor structural life-enhancing mods which had been developed by the RAF and other users over the years were not included in the baseline J specification - originally!

The floor was a cost-saving that was driven by MoD against much user advice, and even against Lockheed's advice - they wanted to produce only one type of floor for the aircraft, and weren't pleased that the RAF chose the low-tech option. However, in my opinion the biggest problem (bearing in mind the ASR) was that Lockheed insisted that the MTOW would remain at the same value as the K's had been on release to service. In the intervening years, driven mainly by the Falklands logistics demands, the K's limit had been increased. This suited all the customers - more freight - even if the engineers (and some of the pilots) weren't too impressed. This was approved by Marshall's, the DA, although I believe Lockheed were against it even then. This meant that the J was always going to struggle in seamlessly replacing the K as a freight-hauling tool - all the load plans from the K would not work for the J. I suspect that may have been the original cause of much of the resistance to the J from those outside the Lyneham pilots who, as SS says, love it to bits!

I'm sure that most of these problems have now been resolved and, as always, the RAF has made the best of a somewhat botched procurement. I hope the J goes on to a long and successful future, though some of the rumours posted here suggest that it may not. Incidentally, the introduction of the K was just as prolonged (especially the TS clearances) and problemmatic as the J has been, so this is nothing new!

I'm no longer privy to what goes on at Rompers Green, other than what I read here (and occasionally glean from SS at Pprune bashes - while he can still talk), so I shall continue to watch with interest!

[Episkopiana]

Gentlemen, and Ladies, It seems that we may be overlooking a few particular facts. The c130J was sold to the RAF as an aircraft that could easily compliment and finally replace the K. It has proven itself more than once already, including it's superbly successful time in Afghanistan and the Gulf. During the former, it was able to carry larger quantities, quickly into a threat environment, and return. Due to a great part played by the maintainers, it also had a 99% task completion rate.

I know well the problems that are currently holding back a very capable aircraft, and hope that a fix will be found soon by Mr Lockheed and his staff. It is worthy to note however, that it is still able to carry more, higher and faster than its counterpart, although, maybe not as far at present. Spares problems are a contract problem, and maybe someone on high would like to get his teeth round that one.

I promise you, I will shortly get of my Hobbyhorse, and return to drinking G + T's in the sun, however, I would just like to say that most of the bad press is still coming out of the K fraternity. I hear it every day, and it will take a long time to go away I think. The K is here to stay for maybe another 10 years (Wiltshire airbase closing and all), and the J will be it's replacement, hopefully not alongside that 400 rubbish. Why can people not accept this, and let the two great aircraft work together as one team. After all, we are all doing the same job, helping the planet to be a better place to live, allbeit maybe with a few less people on the J.





:ok:

[2port]

Epi

I'm becoming forgetful in my old age - please remind me about these greater payloads and quicker flight times into Afghanistan - obviously they happened, just can't quite remember when ...

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Epi,

Stop argueing and work together?? :D haha... next you'll want people to hold hands and dance in a circle :}

Suppose though it's too much to ask that people who haven't even been on an aircraft stop trying to act like experts on the topic :p

Anyway .. I'm on leave out west so ... back to gardening!

PAF

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

PAF,
"Suppose though it's too much to ask that people who haven't even been on an aircraft stop trying to act like experts on the topic"

Should have offered that advice to the poster above mate you as i suspect he fit's that bracket perfectly:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Always Broken in Wilts,

Yes I thought as much..

we can only hope.. but I think it's a pipe dream..

Some of the rumours would be funny if they didn't get passed around as fact so easily!

PAF
:=

[RoboAlbert]

2port (second name 'and you'll have 10 tail' prehaps)

If I send you a NOS MAT graph and an MOS WAT graph will that help explain things.

RA:bored:

[2port]

Always Broken ...
- not quite "that bracket", 5000+ hrs over it in fact.

Robo
- well done on understanding the name, did you spend hours working out the surname riposte?
- send away, why not add ROS facts and figures as well.

To you both - any chance of an answer to my 1st point, not disputing the potential but it's obviously quicker to Kabul from Eastern Europe than it is from Oman, and as I said - I don't recall etc etc

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

2P,
Quite an impresive resume' but how many of those 5000+ hours have been on J model op's........................ none i suspect:p

Pay attention when someone of Robo's calibre speaks and you just might learn something....................but as I can guess which seat you sit in I doubt it :mad:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[StopStart]

Fabulous. As expected, it descends into another pointless cock waving contest.....

2port,
Are you trying to make a point or are you just trolling? I suspect the latter :rolleyes:

The J was based in Thumrait. The K was based in Thumrait. The J ( back then :rolleyes: ) cruises faster than the K, ergo (and work with me on this) I suspect it got to AFG quicker. Yes, it does now go there from Eastern Europe but that is irrelevant.

When I last operated the K it was into Kabul during the spring about 18 months ago. T/O WAT limits weren't a factor and if required we could get out of Kabul at about 70T (assuming about 10degC on the ground). Under the same conditions the K could make about FL210 on 4 and 11500' on 3. The J could make FL260 on 4 and 17500' on 3. These are all NOS comparisons and merely serve to illustrate the difference in performance between the two aircraft.

I am not trying to be a pedant nor am I particularly interested in a "debate" with someone who can't see the actual facts of the situation.

Yes, you can whittle away the safety factors built into NOS by going onto MOS/ROS and yes under those conditions the K can, I'm sure, cope with increased WAT conditions. Under conditions of war or high threat then, again, yes, operate to MOS and get the job done which the K does and is doing at the moment in places. But on a long term detachment in a relatively benign environment why not have an aircraft that can operate to those levels of performance and at the same time have a large reserve of performance tucked away should it need it?

Give me an engine failure after take off at a high AUM out of Kabul in the middle of summer and I know which aircraft I'd rather be in.

If you're trying to make a point then make it, otherwise give it a rest - at the moment you're just making yourself look like a sad, petty little man which I am sure that as someone of your obvious experience you are not.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

SS,
Apologies for "takin' the bait" but I just get annoyed with opinionated, and not very accurate, twerps come in here and raking over old ground.

I hope your post has now cleared any doubts he had and we can get back to some sort of sensible debate in here.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[ZH875]

It is simple. The J does not smell of pi$$.

A Herc is a Herc is a Herc is a ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

[RoboAlbert]

2port – Top banter mate - no it actually came to me in a second – a sort of hideous flash back were I say '278 and 55 seconds outbound' and you say 'no no no co-pilot try again' in a despairing and slightly unhelpful sort of way. Sorry you missed my point about the graphs – But if you need an ROS graph I’ll see if I can dig out a dusty, little used, copy of the J’s MAT ROS graph.:bored:

[Wappy Tupper]

Robo - Not worth the banter mate! 2ports is just another pi$$-ridden old drift-reader who is as ignorant on matters about the J as he is on his geography from Kabul to East Europe / Oman.

Give me a computer any day! (EHE 0.000) :D

[pr00ne]

Episkopiana,

You seem to ba a tad muddled over the RAF Hercules procurement. The MOD bought the current 25 J's to replace half of the then current 61 aircraft K fleet. The deal was that there was to be no increase or enhancement in capability, merely replacement.
The current surviving K fleet will not be replaced by the J, it will be replaced by the 25 A400M's that the MOD is purchasing.

[2port]

Stopstart - a far more erudite reply, mostly, than your two colleagues (although I admit that too is an assumption). I cannot deny that my first comment was a slight dig but neither RA or ABIW has yet to give a suitable answer - banter is all very well, and expected, but you'd think they could perhaps write something more intelligent as well.
I imagine that has left me open for some more of the same ....

[Pass-A-Frozo]

2port,

There is no point getting silly with trying to prove a K can do more than a J by comparing flight of different distances or launching from different bases. Your just getting silly. You want some facts.
FACT: The aircraft flies faster. This means you can carry more cargo, quicker over the same distance.

Surely your not argueing on this note??

:rolleyes:

[Mr C Hinecap]

If you can't carry the cargo you WANT to over that distance, then that is a severely limiting factor. Flexibility - the key to superior air power after all!

[StopStart]

2port

Sorry, but what is the question you are looking for a suitable answer to?


:confused:

[sprucemoose]

pr00ne - you're bang on about the new aircraft not offering an improved capability, according to Hansard earlier this week:

Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what have been the (a) highest and (b) lowest monitored mission readiness rates for RAF C-130 aircraft of each type in the past three years.

Mr. Ingram: The required Readiness States for C-130 Force Elements in each of the last three years have been met.

As monitored mission readiness rates is not a term with a precise military definition, I have interpreted this as serviceability rates, figures for which are based on a snapshot of serviceability taken at 8:00 am each day. For the C-130J, these figures start from May 2002, when all aircraft had entered service; for the C-130K, they start from November 2001, as prior to this time a number of aircraft were out of service but awaiting return to Lockheed Martin.

Highest (lowest) serviceability rates:
C-130J: 69% (46%)
C-130K: 76% (37%)

Isn't it wonderful what technology can do for availability!

[StopStart]

46% as a lowest serviceabilty rate with for the C130J??
Last week??
Given our ongoing engine problems I suspect that is a typo; 4.6% might be more accurate :rolleyes:

One can prove many things with statistics but those show that each type is basically as serviceable as the other (56.5% vs 57.5%) - the J being a new aircraft with the associated problems of being such and the K being a 30 year old aircraft with the problems likewise. Out of interest, anyone know what the daily serviceability targets are for the engineering lines?

As for increased capability, I stand by my earlier comments that the improved performance of the C130J does offer an increase in capability over that offered by the C130K, like for like.

[RoboAlbert]

2port

Sorry mate you can’t really expect not to get banter when you phrase your questions in the way you did in your first post. Actually there was an answer to your question in my first post since the Js hot n high performance and hence its MAT limits were quite useful in Afghanistan, particularly taking loads out of theatre. Sorry if it wasn’t sufficiently clear.

RA:rolleyes:

[2port]

Stopstart

My 1st post, although tongue in cheek and nothing to do with this thread, was that I didn't actually recall the J working out of Thumrait - or at least certainly nowhere near as much as the K. It was purely in reply to Mr Epi's comment about "higher further faster". But have now lost interest as don't wish to descend into slanging match, and so shall leave the thread to the original engine question ...

[StopStart]

2port

Ah, I see.
The Js were based in Thumrait for some time although I'm not sure how long. There was certainly a detachment there, hence the comparison with the Ks.

[Mr C Hinecap]

StopStart - still come back to my last point - it matters not how much quicker it gets down the route etc. If you have limits on what you carry, then that is a major restriction. Therefore, better to have something with less restrictions that moves a little slower. Sorry to keep banging on about the stuff in the back, but sometimes there is more than Webers, lawnmowers and fuel to be moved.

[StopStart]

Mr C

I'm sure there are some loads that the J can't carry that the K can. I think I'm right in saying there are some wheeled loads we're restricted on by the fitted dash 4 kit and that the oxygen modules in the roof incur some height limitations. Also, the Mk5 can be odd when trying to seat pax or on pax only moves with no other freight to trim it with. Ultimately though our bread and butter loads, pallets of rubber dog sh*t and air experience Land Rovers, are a problem for the neither of the aircraft. If the J has the performance to get more people or rubber dog do into or out of a location then surely that must be an improvement?

Arguing the corners of the performance envelope - be it the MOS performance of the K or the the J's inability to carry a Deltic ship engine (or whatever) reveals little other than that perhaps the two aircraft types can complement each other in certain situations - hence a 50/50 fleet?

PS.
I'm well aware that the Herc is there to move stuff around hence the comments in my initial post about some of the design and planning failings regarding the back end of the J. Please don't try and paint me as bloody minded aircrew who couldn't give a toss about the backend of our aircraft. Pretty much everybody at Lyneham is ultimately just a small cog in a big wheel in an even bigger machine the sole purpose of which is to move rubber dog sh*t and air experience landrovers round the world - no matter how loud they shout or how big their combat smock is :rolleyes:
I'm not interested in an inter-trade bunfight thanks.

[BEagle]

There'll be an item on the Witshire Gliding Club on Central TV South this evening....

[albert the first]

Blimey has there been a break out of Team Lyneham

[Chris Kebab]

Boy am I pleased I never got streamed multi's.

You guys never give up do you.

What a $***e impression you lot give to all the non Lyneham readers/posters in this forum.

I put it down to bitterness at you all loosing your extremely productive "trainers"!

[RoboAlbert]

Well I'm really sorry you feel that way Chris:(

[Chris Kebab]

Hey cheer up robo :-)

But the Albert fleet really is its own worst enemy.

[RoboAlbert]

No Chris, I don’t think your right - if the J experience has been anything to go by we must have much more powerful and better placed enemies. :bored:

[Chris Kebab]

Well if it's any consolation, as someone who has been hauled several places down the back of a herc (and if I have been a really lucky boy on the bunk), I think you guys offer a top service regardless of whether you have external fuel tanks or not.

I can almost re-taste your Belize lobster thermidour....hmmmm

[flipster]

I agree that the pathetic J/K bitching on this, and other, threads puts Lyneham in a very poor light. But this is just the whining of the minority. Fortunately, the majority of people at that great 'secret airbase' banter eachother but its nothing more than that. The grown ups amongst us know that we are actually on the same side - shock horror!

Nonetheless, please have some sympathy with the 'great unwashed of Wiltshire'. We are neither very glamourous nor punchy (no, really!). Our ac are just 'hanging in there' - either 'cos they are old and sh@gged or because they are new and sh@gged! We never make the headlines as we are just boring old truck drivers who smell a bit and no-one wants to get too close too. No-one from on high ever sings our praises as no-one really cares much and we are apparently taken for granted by everyone. (All together now....ahhhhh!)

However, over past few years, the guys and girls at Lyneham have been asked to do rediculous things for which they couldn't train and for which the ac were not properly prepared nor protected. They are constantly being asked to do more with less. But we have done it (J and K) and continue to do it in as professional manner as possible - because that's just what we do! Things are changing at Lyneham with the arrival of the CMk3a, a new training regime and the J guys are at last getting to play with their new toy in the Tac AT environment. Things might be on the up but there is only so much cr@p guys can take - so when the airlines start to recruit (sooner than PMA think) - people will undoubtedly vote with their feet. This is predictable but I can't blame them.

In the end, it has been an absolute priviledge to work with the people from Lyneham (and not just aircrew'). They are the pick of the crop - and you will not find a more dedicated bunch professionals in the RAF. No other fleet has achieved so much with so few assets and of that, they can be very, very proud
(p!ssing oneself in a dark suit, perhaps??).



Flipster - proud to be a truckie and proud to have served

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Rehearsing your leaving speech, Flipster?

[pr00ne]

flipster,

" a new training regime"

Again? What is it now, another reinvention of the wheel, resurrection of 57? an OCU.......................

[Pass-A-Frozo]

speaking of Lynnam.

Did the newly ex-exchange pilot with Aus get home safely and get back to work??? He's personally responsible for causing a Guinness shortage in northern Australia. :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

[flipster]

SPHLC

Leaving speech? - I've gone!!

While I miss Albert and the people on the Sqns,
I don't have to carry the Sqn mobile around for 6 mths of the year,
I don't have to work against Arsecot Ops anymore,
My blood pressure is down and I've lost a bit of weight,
I know in adavance what I'm doing EVERY w/e with my family,
I still fly and instruct most weekdays,
I can go on courses,
I can 'do' sport (not v often, of course)
In short, I have a life again......bl00dy magic!!

Proone
I will be amazed if new trg plan gets okayed by 2 Grope but it will provide a more useable and operationally focused output standard from the OCU and TTF - esp wrt what we actually do in war. The system could and should work but only if the guys/gals are given the assets and a/c and provided the right people stay around or get posted in/back........ah, um there could be a problem there, as that would require Grope-on-a-Rope and the Personnel Mismanagement Agency to talk to eachother (doh)!

P-a-F
I believe said Irishman and part-time antipodean is alive and well and back in the area!