Thunderstorm Avoidance

[aerocom]

Am interested in hearing on how and what methords people use to determine what distance to go off track and any useful tips when avoiding thunderstorm situations.

[druglord]

just don't go through 'em. The turbulence around them generally isn't any worse than the convective stuff you get off the desert. I've been sitting with one wing in the cloud trying to stay VFR and the ride isn't particullary bad or scary....and most of those were level 5 TS's. I popped under a roll cloud once...wouldn't recommend doing that...but the NT guys could probably give ya a few tips.

[compressor stall]

When you're feeling brave you can get an extra 30-40 knots on the bowwave off the bottom of a tropical CB....just like surfing :ok:

Just don;t let the lightning scare you! :uhoh:

Seriously though - just look at the way the storm has formed and thing what the wind is doing. Watch the virga, watch the wind effects on the ground. That will tell you how far to stay away from it. Sometimes you have no choice but to get bloody close!


CS

[thumpa]

If u don't like what u see. Just tilt the radar up:ok:

[slamer]

There are probably as many techniques and ideas on this as there are pilots, some points that come to mind are;

-Stay out of them (CB,s), especially if Magenta is painting, otherwise expect a memorable ride. Im tempted to say they tend to be more active around the ITCZ & Sub-Continent (and they are) but in reality if the conditions are suitable they can all pack a good punch regardless of Latitude.

-Take note of the Met Brief (assume its accurate) if possible re-file another route to avoid concentrated areas of CB activity.

-Keep your eyes open,(inside & outside the cockpit) especially at nite, there always seems to be a skinny cell sitting just
under/obscured by the trk line that will kick your A... when you least expect.

-Know your wx Radar system, Read the handbook but also have a play (with the Radar!) in clear air. Tilt, Cal, Range, Ident, etc. you will find settings that work for your operation. Wx Radars seem to vary in accuracy and can have thier own personality.

-Try and pass, up-wind of the cell to reduce Turb,

-Begin avoidance early, Try not to find yourself in a situation where the CB is closer than your turn radius!. Some companys have SOP's on lat dist from cells. It is fair to say you can " just miss them" but not that prudent, 3- 5 miles should be safe, depending on how active they are, you may want more

-Try and avoid flying just over CB's, especially building ones, often there is CAT lurking there. conversely avoid flying under
"overhangs" these may contain nasty surprises , freezing rain etc

-If you find yourself in a situation where you cant avoid penetrating a line of CB's, (and sooner or later you will) have an awareness of your Buffet margins, Turb pen speeds, use of a/c systems, Ignition, A/T , A/P, EAI/WAI etc, make sure you have full avail perf if or when you req it.
when in areas of active wx I tend to leave the hdg select at Max AOB so I can turn quickly if required, you can always back off the angle later, Yeh I know some people Bitch about this down the back, but they will Bitch more if you run into a CB.

-I avoid large/excessive deviations from TRK (I would consider this >40- 50nm) I prefer to prepare the cabin, batten down the hatches and find a suitable route, If the atmosphere is that unstable going 100nm off trk will probably just turn up more wx! so what do you do? go another 100nm, next thing your diverting due insuff fuel

-Advise the cabin, dont just tell them "theres a bit turb ahead" if warranted TELL them to stow the Galley and take their seats immediatley, ensure pax remain securely seated until the all-clear. if its a real rough ride advise your maint people.

-Lastly tell ATC if your deviating around wx, otherwise you may be in for another rough ride from the duty supervisor, then the boss, if ATC are slow coming up with a CLR theres a procedure in Jepp to follow

Im sure theres more!

[aerocom]

Thanks all for your input. Some good info for all reading.

[WhatWasThat]

In a non-radar environment, weather diversions probably create more work for ATC than anything else. To help ATC help you it may be worth considering the following.

- There will usually be some delay in provision of clearance to divert off track from ATC, this is caused by the requirement to coordinate with surrounding units and assess the impact of the diversion on separation. If you leave your request until the last possible moment you may not get clearance in time.

- Many of the separation standards that ATC use outside radar coverage are dependant on aircraft tracking directly to or from a known point, whilst an aircraft is actually flying around CBs we have very limited options. Even if you cant regain track once you are established tracking direct to a waypoint or NAVAID we have more to work with.

- I understand the magnitude of a diversion is initially a guestimate, but if it becomes clear that you will not need all of the 40nm or so off track that you initially request, tell us - generally the larger the requested diversion the more work for ATC. The way ATC separate off radar is basically to protect a "sausage" around an aircrafts track, dimensions determined by RNAV capability and ground based NAVAIDS. For approved INS the dimensions are 14nm either side of track, if that aircraft diverts 40nm left of track, this is just added to the appropriate side, so the new sausage would be 54nm left and 14nm right of track. Obviously large diversions can take up a lot of airspace, If you ask for fifty and it turns out twenty will do, please tell us!

- If you are issued a clearance to divert and later report regaining track, ATC will consider the clearance to divert is now void, they may get a nasty surprise if you divert again.

Hope this helps.

[Sperm Bank]

Some interesting points there WWT. Good to get an ATCO's perspective. Aerocom as sated there are plenty of different methods to determine a safe distance. I was always taught (and still teach today) that for every 10,000 feet of CB, add 10 miles for off-track avoidance. E.G. 10,00 feet divert 10 miles off track, 20,000 feet 20 miles off track, 30,000 feet, 30 miles off track etc.

The biggest and most powerful thunderstoms I have witnessed anywhere in the world are right here in Oz. Particularly around the Kimberly region of W.A. If you draw a line from Syd across Oz to Perth, you will find some of the best CB activity anywhere. Whilst even the smallest CB should be avoided at all costs, the behemoths in the Northern half of Oz require the utmost respect.

Scouting around the outskirts of ANY CB with your wingtip in the cloud is an accident waiting to happen. Contrary to what has been previously stated, I was in a jet that rolled through 60 degrees and lost 400 feet in "clear air" whilst not giving a CB a wide enough birth. By radar we were more than 15 miles from the cell. I have never been that close since. Maybe an over reaction but I have never been caught out using the above technique.

Use whatever works mate, just don't get too close.

[Hudson]

Radar tip. When cruising at high altitude IMC/night ensure the radar gain control is set at MAX position rather than AUTO or CAL.
It gives you a better chance to pick up weak reflections from the dry area in the CB anvil which will not normally paint on radar in auto gain. Under these conditions even the tiniest echo picked up on MAX gain is indicative of a towering CB top well above your cruise altitude. Read the Pilot's Guide handbooks which each radar manufacturer publishes. See your local radar manufacturer's agent in most capital cities.

[Kaptin M]

How interesting. As Sperm Bank wrote, "The biggest and most powerful thunderstoms I have witnessed anywhere in the world are right here in Oz.", I too would concur with that.
The Cb's in the tropics, whilst appearing similar, don't pack the same wallop.

Personally I would totally ignore druglord's comments, because as much as he may have been lucky so far, there have been several recorded instances of aircraft being totally destroyed by straying too close to a Cb.
The recommendation I had beaten into me as a young Ansett pilot, several decades ago, has proven fairly reliable - minimum lateral separation of 10nm from the nearest part of the f@cker when OAT is above freezing level, and 20nm lateral avoidance when OAT is below freezing.

Spermie's probably erred on the safe side, with his 10nm/10k of height, as I have often seen Cb's up to 60,000' in Oz.

Avoid flying under the overhang (the longer part of the anvil top), and try to fly upwind (vs downwind) when diverting around them.
If, at some stage you HAVE to fly through a line of them, avoid "hooks" (on radar returns) and areas where 2 of the mothers are close together. When using radar, 3 on the "Gain" seems about as sensitive as you would want. Some of the younger guys want to use "Max", and then find themselves wanting to divert around rain showers.
If you do get caught in one, fly pitch...don't go chasing airspeed.

Above all - contrary to other advice - avoid going too near them, esp. the young developing ones (usually from 10 or 11am, through to around 2 or 3pm), these are the most active. Dissipating/mature/decaying Cb's pack less of a whack, but probably enough to do some serious structural damage if you get too intimately involved!!

[Crashlanded]

great tips learnt but what would b the best minimum distance to avoid these CBs/virga for a 172/182 a/c?

[woftam]

I agree with Sperm Bank and Kaptin M.
The worst mothers of CB's I have struck anywhere in the world are in Oz.
Particularly avoid anything brewing around Casino, Armidale, Coffs Harbour, Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast or Brisbane !!!!
They can be ferocious (as the last few days have proven).
Best advice is give them a WIDE berth as has been stated.
Don't be tempted to fly over one too closely or between two closely spaced cells.
Treat them with the respect they deserve.
They can BREAK A/C !!!!
Love to watch them though (from a respectable distance of course).
:D

[druglord]

dittos on the worst TS's being in oz. 10nm and 20nm I'd agree would be ideal, however bush VFR in the wet rarely affords that level of safety.... and bush operators don't like to cease operations for 4 months of the year.

[Hobo]

I agree with Hudson, Max manual gain can be very usefull particularly for embedded CBs when flying IMC or at night.

My technique (learned when a copilot by a flightdeck visitor who worked for the radar manufacturer) is to select say 100nm range, max man gain and tilt down until you get a solid semi circle of ground return, bring this ground return to around 50nm and then look on the 50nm scale - anything there will be a storm return. Then tilt up and see how high it goes, if its still there at 2 degrees down then if I can't see it out the window I avoid it by the sort of margins discussed above.

slamer - surely if it's considered nescessary deviating up to 40nm then if it all still looks bad it's worth going another 40 miles rather than "batonning down the hatches" I was held down coming across Italy with cbs everywhere a few years ago eventually we rerouted via Sardinia and France and ended up about 100nm west of our original track, the guy behind us who didn't reroute ended up with a hail dented nosecone. Why take chances?

[Winstun]

I agree with Sperm Bank and Kaptin M. ....:zzz: Is this a mutual stroking session or what? And why am I not invited? The worst mothers of CB's I have struck anywhere in the world are in Oz. ...:ooh: Cute..but where in the world have you been besides Oz...:rolleyes: Evidently not South and central USA in spring....or perhaps Brazil, Argentina, Southern Africa, Southern Europe. "The biggest and most powerful thunderstoms I have witnessed anywhere in the world are right here in Oz.", I too would concur with that. ..:hmm: Let you in on a little secret...the Kimberleys are in the tropics. More severe supercell and squall line Ts are more prevalent in SE Australia due to jet and cold fronts. Australia has not as severe Ts as some locations specified above due less air moisture and less differing airmass movements converging...:ok: I know, a Ts is scary stuff nevertheless, specially for you good weather flyboys. But please spare us all the drivel.:p

[maximus]

Ahhh.......the Village Idiot returns:ok:

[splatgothebugs]

You would all be surprised at some of the cells these little islands can produce. Huge amounts of ice and turbulence.

That aside it's always a safe bet to stay well clear of anything that looks harmful if you have no wx radar.

Shake, rattle and roll

splat :p

[slamer]

Sperm Bank .
A nice rule of thumb for lateral dist V Alt to aviod CB,s , however
in my opnion something of a luxury, Good theory, but not that practical,Can you honestly say you avoid all CB,s by as much as 40 nm ( I will assume you dont go much over 40000')
I know some operators have a min 10nm lat dist from ANY CB. I also know very few if any of their people actually do this (unless on a work to rule of course)
The operator I work for has no set policy/SOP on this, and to the best of my knowledge has never had a problem with upsets, either running into or passing close to CB,s while enroute. Naturally the terminal area can be a little more restricive on arrival/Departure and cause problems at times

Hobo,
Yeh figured someone would say that, My point is ,
One can nearly always find a safe path through a line of Wx with intelligent use of the radar system, (granted this may be a problem if your stuck low) It is very unusual to get a solid line of
red/magenta spanning 200nm +, when above 30000'

A few years ago we had an a/c req an en-route fuel diversion as a result of lat diversion in the order of hundreds of miles, From my experiance this is completley unnecessary if you know what your doing and plan ahead

But never say never eh!

anyway,nuff on this thread for me, over and out.

[woftam]

Winstun,
You are an absolute fuc*wit mate!
Do you really think anyone is interested in your smartarse comments?
And yes I have flown in most of the places you mentioned you ACE!
Get dropped on your head as a child or something did you?
****** !!!!!!!!!

[Sheepdog]

Just when I though there is hope for PPrune , with a great interesting discussion, that benifits all who read.

When along comes Winstun, I wish they would ban brain dead floggers like this. PPrune should have a separate forum for all these idiots, where they can all get in together and annoy each other.

To the rest of the writers in this post well done, a good subject that a lot of junior pilots know little about. Especially the use of Wx Radar.

[ftrplt]

East coast USA CB's are heaps worse than most you will ever see in OZ.

Work the radar during the day as you would at night, helps to learn the best way to work it.

If you arent using the tilt a lot to build the vertical profile you arent doing it right.

The tops often dont paint, dont be comfortable thinking you will always get over something with no bumps

Max gain good for long range detection, down the gain when you want to build a picture of the weather.

Dont leave the all scopes on long range, you will miss the little lonely one that will spank you badly.

[Sheep Guts]

Well guys do you notice that you cant PM Winstun, and that his threads have not acquired any critcisim from Moderators? Well thats because he is generated by the Pprune Hierarchy themselves, and I sense from someone amongst that team that' doesnt like us Ozzies. Good one prune....:)

You are a total laugh Winstun, and Total Tripe reply no. 207 is still no better than your previous comments.


Sheep

[Eurocap]

What's the matter with you guys? It's about time you took the blinkers off.

Oz is not the B all and end all of aviation. The USA do have worse TS's than Oz.

It has been reported in USA of aircraft having lightning strikes many miles downwind of the cell and recommended that 50nm downwind of a cell is probably going to be reasonably safe.

This original post was a reasonable request for information, not a slagging match.

Its about time, those of you that were slagging others, you crawled back into your holes.

Cheers.

[splatgothebugs]

I'm not trying to hijack the thread, BUT has anybody here every experienced a micro burst or something of that nature?

- Is there anyway that those who fly in areas where this phenomina occurs more often can detect it?

and yes I pled ignorance on this one as most of my flying has been in little old NZ.

splat ;)

[Winstun]

Well guys do you notice that you cant PM Winstun, and that his threads have not acquired any critcisim from Moderators? ...:rolleyes: ...well, well, that might be because they value my informative opinions as do most of the good viewers. Does this not sit well with your small driviling clique? If you have something worthwhile to say, you can say it here. To the rest of the writers in this post well done, a good subject that a lot of junior pilots know little about. ..:hmm: Wrong ..many here are talking through there arse, and it is this mis-information to junior pilots that concerns me. BTW, I have nothing against Ozzies, but I do of any persons mindlessly flogging themselves on the citizenship card, and many Ozzies appear particularly skillful in that department...:zzz: It is generally recommended to avoid Ts by at least 20nm (from outer edge of cell) however if upper winds are strong enough, there could be hail downwind in excess of 20nm. Down wind deviation, deviate by nm per knot of wind (wind is 40kts, deviate by 40nm). Use tilt to assess vertical profile ( range nm x 100 = 1 degree beam width in feet) Make your deviation decision by 30-40nm. More than 6/10 Ts coverage circumnavigate entire area. Wx paints while in wx will be understated. Avoid shadowing (concaving) and unusual paint shapes as pendant, scalloped, hooks and fingers (hail or tornadoes). Be certain to test radar before every takeoff, if no wx get a ground return. :ok:

[halfhardt-6]

After a few wet seasons in and around Darwin, mostly vfr, I tried to follow the old rule of avoidance of 15nm in front and 5nm behind. This seemed to work resonably well in "most" cases. Though some charles' demand somewhat more respect than this.

[Pharcarnell]

Who's got and where are the worst loud clouds will depend entirely on personal (bad) experiences.
It is, however, interesting to note that NASA (the Yank one), actually sent a great heap off bodies and gear to Darwin some years back to study what were taken to generally be the worst average CB's on the planet.
Must have been quite serious about it as well, they bought a schmik modified U-2 to get up close and personal with them.

[redsnail]

I have forgotten the chap's name but there was a study done regarding microbursts. One aerodrome studied was Denver, USA, the other was Darwin Australia. I dare say they picked Darwin because of the weather. :ouch: Possibly to contrast monsoonal TS's versus the sort of wx that Denver gets.
The first accident ever attributed to microburst happened in Bathurst, an F27 came to an interesting end.

I have just had the pleasure of flying to Dublin all last week. Lots of TS's around (at night). Not nearly as vicious as the ones I have encountered in Oz (both frontal and airmass) and the tops were only about 10,000' to 12,000'. I still didn't want to fly through them though.


Guts, I agree. :suspect:

[OpsNormal]

Reddo, that seems pretty small for a thundery, however I've not flown around Europe,so I'll sit back and learn from what is here. (Man 'o' man I can't believe they are so small....) ;)

You know, some of you might need to slow down a tad and not get so upset when someone has a differing point of view. Fierce jingoistic national pride aside (quite amusing actually - the 'our storms are bigger than yours' bit is a bit childish). What Winstun has said in his/her post on the first page makes complete sense, and in fact has more than just a small foundation of truth.

*When was the last time a land-based thundery around these parts grew a tail that streched to the ground from the base of the cloud and demolished everything in it's path? I guess some of you haven't heard of Tornado Alley in the American mid-west, where extreme high impact thunderstorms are a way of life.

*Now just because they don't play cricket over there doesn't mean for a minute that they don't get hailstones that big either, baseballs are roughly the same size.... Our coastal thunderstorms here in Oz can be violent and large, but are rarely in an inpenetrable line stretching 100's of miles in either direction, across states even.

A violent thunderstorm, growing to all altitudes, and going all colours cobalt blue through green and black is a thing of pure beauty from the ground, and is best enjoyed from that vantage point whatever country you are viewing it from. I will only say that the closer to the equator you get, the more torrential I've seen the rain become, however the further south one goes the more ferocious the winds and larger the hailstones they tend to emit, and yes I have seen some major downpours from the sthrn storms that would satisy the pundits of our more tropical storms. The further south you get (for Oz that is), the more embedded they tend to be and harder to spot in the daytime. The further north, the spread apart, and for the most part it isn't usually difficult to thread through them.

Distances off? 20nm is good, but more is better, in any direction - wx radar or not. Interestingly I've not read anyone's reply which included using the adf as a kind of poormans 'strike finder'. It works very well, as I found-out one night heading south to YTNK when I got closed in on during one of those nights up here that some believe are VFR all the time. Fire, ice and big bumps all in the one cloud at the one time. I had no idea I was heading into it until I was deep inside. The ADF needle will point at the strike, you'll go the other way.... :ooh:

[Iso]

It just chills me to the bone when I read some of this, as I recall some of the experiences I had with thunderstorms.

The ADF is one of the best ways, and in my case, was the only way to detect CB'S. Flogging around in a tired clapped out Cessna 310, with no radar betweeen Mt. Isa and Mackay was were I had my introduction to the Thunderstorm gully of Queensland from the Gulf down through to central NSW. Invariably it was filled with CB'S in lines all the way through. Oh those summer days!

With no radar, and at night, to say the least, was character building, but also on occassions gave me some religious experiences that were mortifying.

I am sure the bank runners out of Bankstown and Archerfield would have had similiar experiences. The freight companys just expected you to get through, and you did. Mind you some guys paid a price for it.

In one instance, my collegue told me of another chap (yep, third hand story), who had penetrated a a line of CB on our same route, was unable to land at the intermediate airports along the way, Cloncurry and Hughenden because of the Wx, and had been basically sucked into numerous CB's on the way - as if he had a choice to around them - NOT.

What resulted was a very damaged aeroplane that arrived back at Mackay. It was a Baron which had evidently been stressed so much during the flight that rivets, lines of them, had been pulled up from the spar, spacers and from the skin of the wing. I later meet that pilot and he told me that he recalls that he penetrated a CB at about 6000' and then recalls that he was spat out at 16000' in a matter of minutes. He had reduced the power to idle, put down flaps and gear, in an effort to try keep the aircraft down
(incorrectly & not something I reccommend, and he in hindsight agreed). He said the ride to top was horrifying and almost uncontrollable, and not something you want to experience in a light piston twin.

Although I had height excursions of a couple of thousand feet, nothing like 10 000' did I experience, as this poor chap did.

I think every good pilot would have had some similiar experiences in their flying days and the suggestions of conservative avoidance is the only way to deal with CB's.

To you young or new chums, be afraid, be very afraid because they can bite, and it doesn't matter how much testosterone you have got, most CB's have got bigger balls than you, and will let you know it. Steer clear and listen to what is said here. If you unfortunately have to penetrate, fly attitude primarily as the other instrument indications are going to be wild and eratic. Know you Turb. Pene, speeds and power settings for level, and descending flight, and set these immediately fro the circumstance. Go straight ahead, don't turn, and don't put down flap or gear in light aircraft; one should be well aware that the "G" factor protection for the aircraft is decreased by this action.

Suggested reading for CB penetration: Handling the Big Jets. Some good info. there. Best of all DON'T penetrate. (Why does that sound so familiar?).

ON ON CHAPS.

[emeritus]

Aerocom....not sure if you have the availability of Weather Radar or not, but several tips.

Selecting the ADF off frequency was an old method, paricularly in reduced vis if possible. The needle tended to point to the CB. This method was used by some of the "old timers"that I flew with many moons ago.

Radar merely detects water droplets..the bigger the drops the stronger the return,therefore the smaller the distance between the edge of the return and the edge of the cell the greater the the gradient from no rain to max rain and hence the greater the posssibility of violent conditions.

When all is said and done the fact remains that it is always better to be a live chicken than a dead duck.

[TAY 611]

Heard a bloke once saying "one peep is worth a thousand sweeps" draw your own conclusions on that one esp at nite.
Looks like a bit of a Pi$$ing contest here on who gets the worst CB's. After a wet season and some driving a coastwatch Dash out of Darwin I certainly learn't about lightning and its associated problems and the word Hector springs to mind. Done a bit of flying around Europe and also the USA and I am left with the impression that the size of the CB's have something to do with the tropopause height. Have seen the Tropopause down as low as 210 in fairly northern parts of Europe and yet the CB's there wern't any less active than those great 60000' monsters at Darwin. I've also been around (not over) some fairly mean looking ones over USA at FL450. Best advice stay clear of all of them, wherever they are, and use what ever means you have available (including a look out the window) to avoid them preferrably on the upwind side.

[Sheep Guts]

Best advice : "SEE AND AVOID" its an oldy but a goody.

If you have a radar use it and trust it in IMC. Also listen for Traffic reports and make adjustments to your track accordingly.

Thunderstorm Turbulence can be outright life threatening can flip an Aircraft easily and put you i a UA Unusal Attitude with dire circumstances.


Sheep

[Bill Pike]

The above post is very important. Some of our up and coming bird men don't have radar, and while I don't deride the theory I always felt that playing with the ADF kept your mind busy but had little practical application. While being in a TS is a character forming experience, hail aside, few aircraft are torn up by the TS itself, it is the subsequent recovery after losing it in the turbulence that tears the wings off. The RAAF technique in DC3's, once committed to a TS penetration, was to lower the seat, turn up the lights, get hard on the clocks, and bore two Hamilton Standard sized holes in whatever was in the way.. Of course I recommend staying at home that night, but once committed, all is not lost once inside the stuffers either. Just work very hard at keeping the dirty side down.

[Sheep Guts]

Very true Bill Pike.

A Conquest Pilot in Darwin years back found what could happen inside. He was IMC with a U/S Radar and was flipped. Lost alot of altitude from FL310 in the recovery and pulled through the vertical I believe. When the Machine was parked , I managed to take a peek at it as most did at the Airport, the airframe was very stressed. Elevator hinge broken on one side Nose cone shreaded ( flying vertically through hail does this) hail dents all over spinners and leading edges and windows some small cracks. The tail section had stress marks on it. Apparently I didnt see it, but the ASI was pegged out and was stuck past the VMO aswell. Many photos were publicised on the net not sure if they are still around. Apparently a afellow from Cessna came over to inspect the machine and verify of it was savable. Talked to an Engineer after this incident told that a similiar thing hapeened to an Arhnems Cheiftain many moons ago.

There was a Easy Jet 737-300 with hail damage on here a while back. Ugly looking damage very expensive indeed. Another reason to SEE AND AVOID!


Sheep

[Sperm Bank]

Gday Reddo. I can remember seeing 1 CB 3500 to Fl 100 plenty of times going into and of of Dublin. You don't see it down here as you know but those little ones can still bite hard over there.

Slamer yep it is pretty conservative but in my opinion going too close to a TS is not great airmanship. BAe originally being POMS (of which Winstun is one) recommend diverting by at least 30nm around all TS's. A few extra track miles is not much to pay for peace of mind. Slamer I have diverted 150 nm off track in WA to get around a serious squall line stretching from GEL to MEK. Probably could have pressed through it giving the pax and cabin crew a god almighty fright. That is the amateur option in my opinion. I think the average pilot would think a little more laterally than that. If I was checking someone who ploughed through a line of $hite like that, they would fail! Burning an extra 500 kg's of gas to divert and get a smooth ride is far more preferable than strapping everyone in and "hoping" for the best. Just my opinion. Going through terrible wx is an absolute last resort.

As for the posters who have witnessed "bigger" storms in other areas, good for you. This was not intended to be a urinating competition. Yep there is more than a few oz blokes who make an absolute joke of themselves. They are the exception not the rule down here. From my own experience here and around the world, I repaet my original claim that I have never seen anything worse than we get down here. If that upsets you, I think it is you, and not the oz wanks that have the problem.

A mature discussion is yet again hijacked by delusional morons and as previously stated, some seem to be protected by the moderators. I guess it is there site and they can do as they please.

[ravan]

A lot of good thoughts on the subject posted so far.

I remember a few facts about TS that have always convinced me to stay away from them.

An average TS contains 500,000 tonnes of water in its various forms; it yields approximately 1,255,200,000,000 kilojoules of energy; in energy yield, this places it somewhere between the Hiroshima atom bomb and a small hydrogen weapon.

I think I'll keep clear.....

[Winstun]

divert and get a smooth ride is far more preferable than strapping everyone in and "hoping" for the best. Just my opinion. Going through terrible wx is an absolute last resort. ...:rolleyes: ..how enlightening. Glad most pilots have more than "an opinion"...like friggin common sense :ooh: From my own experience here and around the world, I repaet my original claim that I have never seen anything worse than we get down here ...:zzz: Well thats just dandy. Only problem is...your experience amounts to nothing much..:{ Evident you have not flown the USA in spring and summer, crisscrossed Brazil and Argentina, flown the African continent, Spain, the Balkans, etc, etc...lordy, even the NSW coast. Bone please! :p

[Sperm Bank]

WINSTUN I repeat the view of numerous others. YOU are by and large the biggest F...WIT on these forums. Do us all a favour and crawl back under the moss covered rock from which you dragged yourself. Your perennial unintelligent comments contribute nothing and help convince the rest of us (not that we needed it) just how stupid you and your ilk are.

I don't care about Brazil, Argentina, the Balkans, Spain or the African continent. They have nothing compared to the monsters down here. In any case I was not chest beating about it, just making an off the cuff comment from experience. I, unlike you have been over them all. You sir (being the condescending dead$hit that you obviously are), have obviously never flown down in any real weather in oz. Thank god, as we don't want dead beat morons such as yourself infesting oz arispace. Go home you pathetic little tosser to your miserable mother land and catch a cold you degenerate.

It's parthenogenesis, recalcitrant, low end of the intellectual spectrum, dialectically materialsitic rock apes such as you that ruin a good discusion. This thread was going just fine until you turned up.

Let me guess, you will have to get the dictionary out to learn the meaning of some new words. I can hardly wait for your new stream of invective. Hopefully comparable to mine and then we may get some action from WOOMERA to block you from our airwaves you parasite.

There's only one thing worse than a idiot oz bloke and that is a no brainer, dillusional and mind numbingly boring and incompetent dumb POM. You fit the bill in every regard.

Get off the Oz forum jerk. It must be really sad when you turn off your computer and you climb into your empty bed at night. You must think to yourself why am I so lonely ? Why don't people want to be around me? Why do all my F/O's hate my guts? Well JR that is a tough one but let me take a stab at it. You are a LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When's the last time you had sssex idiot? Oh you never have, right then. Well the white blindness has set in mate. Now run along and tell your moderator friends that some ozzie is picking on you. YOu are a SAD SAD individual.

[maximus]

Winnie ..my hero. Surely you have seen far worse storms than those you have mentioned here on Earth. In your usual occupation as a Galaxy Class Starship Captain you must have observed amazing weather not only in our solar system but also throughout the galaxy. Please tell us about the ferocity of the Jovian storms, bless us all with your infinite knowledge, oh Wise One.
As I said before somewhere a village is missing it's Idiot :8

[aerocom]

:hmm: Guys
If you want to carry on F**k off and do it some were else. This thread was started to get others thoughts on the matter after someone asked me about different ways of avodiance. Thanks for all the different procedures. I agree avoid them and use the weather radar to help determine the dist off track to fly. Remember its not the size that counts but how you use it.

[VH-ABC]

Well put aerocom, these pages, including this thread, could be put to some good use... actually help fellow pilots out by sharing information, so how about we put the trousersnakes away hey boys.

[Towering Q]

Unfortunately I still play below 10 000 and haven't experienced the joys of weather radar yet.

We do get some fairly large ugly CB's here in WA when the summer trough pattern gets into full swing, probably what S.B. was talking about between Geraldton and Meeka, but surely they couldn't compare with those supercells they get in the U.S. midwest which spawn tornadoes that destroy entire towns?

[Winstun]

WINSTUN I repeat the view of numerous others..The "view" of you and a few other peons (look it up) here is of no concern to me..I, and the knowledge I bring, is appealing to the wider audience. They have nothing compared to the monsters down here Not according to my worldwide expert advisers in meteorological science. Sperm Bank....the rest of your disgusting drivel is nothing more than a bitter display of inferiority complex (understandable) and "tall poppy envy"....yawn..:zzz: Get off the Oz forum jerk Nothing more amusing that witnessing a bullsh*t artist stewing after being exposed as such. Loser? Well, well...lets see, I'm only guessing, but I think my coin is a lot more than you, my jets a lot sleeker than yours, my chicks way hotter..:O but surely they couldn't compare with those supercells they get in the U.S. midwest Correcto. :ok: