View Full Version : Very near miss at LEAL

23rd Oct 2003, 01:21
Learjet cleared to takeoff at Alicante today with a van parked in the centre of the runway approximately 1800 meters down from RW10 threshold. This puts the van in a shallow dip making it invisible to the Lear at the threshold.

Luckily the Lear rotated and cleared the van by about 15 feet.

A rather cool voice from the Lear called it 'No big thing'!

23rd Oct 2003, 01:51
I wonder what the Jets owner, in the back of the craft thought ???? ......

cheers ... hobie ....

LGW Vulture
23rd Oct 2003, 01:55
Interesting but rather worrying.........operator please or registration if possible?

Thanx LGW

23rd Oct 2003, 03:47
Anyone in the back probably knew nothing about it!

23rd Oct 2003, 04:51
well lets hope so flaps because if it was me and it was my LJ I would be highly xxxxxxxxxxx off to say the least .....

cheers ... hobie ....

23rd Oct 2003, 12:46
Wonder what the poor bvgger in the van made of it, I think it would have been somewhat disconcerting to suddenly have something hot whistle 'past your nose' at 120 or so kias!

I sincerely hope that whomever was to blame got reamed for obvious reasons.

23rd Oct 2003, 16:34
Pray what will you plan to do with the reg/operator details of the LJ, LGW Vulture? Your profile does not give any clues, but your average journo would probably make a meal of this in the tabloids before any board of enquiry has been convened. That could well be you.

I am suspicious of your motives.

LGW Vulture
23rd Oct 2003, 17:08
MissChief....Got a little cross when I first saw your post but on reflection, I can see the reasoning behind your shortsightedness.

BizAv / GA has one of, if not the, safest records in aviation and hence any occurence like this needs to be noted, reported on and the authorities made aware. I or my Clients might just have to use that A/C / Operator at some point for one reason or another and I would like to make sure that if I or they do, the incident was reported - regardless of blame!

Now.......where did I put that number for the Daily Mail? :rolleyes:

23rd Oct 2003, 17:45
LGW Vulture:

So let's see if I've got this right; the Learjet crew can't see the vehicle because of the geography of the airfield but they are cleared for take-off by ATC. One has to assume that ATC has checked that the runway is clear before issuing take-off clearance. How can it be the responsibility of the Learjet crew to see something that can't be seen?

Now you wan't to know which Learjet it was so that you and your mates can avoid flying with them.

Surely you should instead be considering avoiding flying into and out of LEAL?

LGW Vulture
23rd Oct 2003, 17:57
JW411......Either you can't read or you don't understand.

".....and I would like to make sure that if I or they do, the incident was reported - regardless of blame"

You presumed JW that I was blaming the Operator?

Reporting procedures and safety. Having looked at your profile JW I would assume you know a little bit about this?

23rd Oct 2003, 18:15
I think the vulture is saying that, if they don't bother to report this, what kind of safety culture can exist within the company and what else do they not bother to report?

23rd Oct 2003, 18:20
Who said they didn't report it? I am deeply suspicious of Vulture's motives and yes, dear boy, I probably know a lot more than you do.

LGW Vulture
23rd Oct 2003, 18:37
I'll have my final say JW and I'll be gone.

Let's go back to the original post shall we?

The final line needs to be read and treated with a degree of caution don't you think?

I salute anyone with a "gung ho" attitude however, this kind of incident cannot be treated as so, especially if those were the real words coming from the flightdeck.

23rd Oct 2003, 20:00
Perhaps the pilot was commenting on the size of the obstacle, not the occurrence?
It should be reported and investigated, but both the ATCo and the flight crew should report it. And if the van driver simply followed the instructions as given, he also should file a report.

23rd Oct 2003, 20:05
Think we all missing the point here...

None here were on the Lear, who knows what the weight was, T/O distance required, etc.

Any-one know "where" the van would have become visible to the LJ left, time enough for abort etc.

But - who the hell cares....


Maybe, just maybe, some-one from LEAL ATC should be standing aginst the wall on this one, not the LJ / operator..? :confused:

23rd Oct 2003, 20:47
LGW Vulture:

"The final line needs to be read and treated with a degree of caution don't you think?".

No I do not; the final line is completely irrelevant. You obviously do not know the first thing about psychology and aviation.

One of the things that I have learned in 40-odd years of professional flying is that when a pilot is suddenly confronted with a potentially disastrous situation which he avoids by the narrowest of margins his first remark is very likely to be flippant.

It is only when things have settled down and the realisation that his day has almost been terminally ruined and that his underpants need changing does logical thought come into the equation.

Unlike you, I have little doubt that the Learjet crew subsequently filed an occurence report. It is then up to the relevant regulatory authorities to deal with the matter and not for self-appointed aerial policemen such as yourself to stick their oars in.

23rd Oct 2003, 21:32

Very well put - and I couldn't agree more...

I was at the holding point once when a friend lost the fan on short finals - a bit of dust and one or two approach lights later (he saved the situation) he called the tower and uttered the words

"Central, you may want to send a sweeper out, there may be a bit of debris on the runway"

Later, comes the clean undies....!

24th Oct 2003, 03:04

That reminds me of a mate of mine who almost hit a donkey that appeared out of the heat haze whilst he was rotating on a very sandy airfield "some distance south of Watford".

ATC were most effusive with their apologies but the first thing my mate said was "How's the donkey?".

Saab Dastard
24th Oct 2003, 04:01

Adds a whole new meaning to "losing the donk on take-off"



24th Oct 2003, 06:03
JW411, I agree with you, appropriate comments throughout.

Just curious about the LJ crew's response...what were they responding to? (An apology from ATC perchance)

Careful at LEAL folks; nice airport, but ATC also have a habit of allowing dodgy summer VFR traffic to fly a pattern close to infringing the ILS/Go Around tracks for 10, which can divert attention at a busy moment. The hills on your left tend to squeeze the airborne holiday-makers in towards the field somewhat. (They should go to Murcia, I reckon..nice emptyish place and no terrain to bother them)

LGW vulture...a report will surely be filed by the LJ crew...if not by ATC...where were you planning on reporting? This is a professional business, and not one for ill-informed conjecture, which can lose people their jobs unfairly.

LGW Vulture
24th Oct 2003, 15:29
Definitely my last post on this....Promise.

There are always two sides to a story. LEAL was obviously identified as one half of the equation, I didn't and still do not know the other half.

Professionalism was the reasoning behind my question, exactly to try and find out what happened here. With hindsight, yes I jumped in like a local bobby; yes JW, aviation psychology is out of my remit; but ultimately, I would still like to know the operator's viewpoint.

Not trying to apportion blame;
Not trying to police EU g/a industry;
Not trying to gain a scoop in the national press.

Part of my job, dislike it as I may do, is to oversee safety and operational aspects of a certain mumber of European g/a operators. Hence, my "need to know".

Jumped in: yes;
Media agenda: no.

One can never stop learning on pprune.

Cheers LGW

24th Oct 2003, 15:49

Seem to have stirred something up here.

As to the verbal response from the pilot, not too much should be read into this as 1) I seriously doubt he was as calm as he sounded and 2) since his English, although very good, was not his first language, the literal content of his statement may not have conveyed accurately his assessment of the situation.

Many years ago I had a 75' airmiss in a cloud with a pair of Jaguars. At the time my response on the radio was pretty calm and measured. This did not last long after landing!