Some quick questions about Cathay

[TWApilot]

I have a few questions about Cathay. I posted them on the Wannabies forum but nobody has answered them yet.


1. I think I read something that indicated you must move to Hong Kong in order to receive a Captain bid. Does anyone know if this is true? I woud like to get hired into the ANC freighter domicile and fly the freighters there for the rest of my life. Will I have to move from ANC to Hong Kong when accepting a Captain bid, only to move back to ANC a few years later to finish out my career? Or can I just upgrade to Captain in ANC on the freighters and never leave?

2. Does anyone know if any of the current hiring for direct-entry F/Os is for the ANC freighter base?

3. I saw a reference to someone retiring at age 55. Is it a requirement that pilots at Cathay retire at 55, or can they go to age 60 like we can in the States?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

[TWApilot]

To anyone -- I read that you do not actually bid for your domicile or even your monthly schedule. How does that work? Once based in a particular place, such as ANC 747 for instance, do you have any say in your monthly days off or trip destinations, or does the company just randomly assign trips? I figure there must be some way to bid your schedule but what I read seemed to indicate there is not. Can anyone explain how the monthly schedule bidding works?

Dan Buster -

Just to clarify, I could sit in ANC as an FO on the freighters, then upgrade to Captain on the freighters, without ever going to the passenger fleet?

That is what I'd like to do. I've had enough of passengers and Flight Attendants anyway. Boxes are much easier to deal with.

[cpdude]

As a North American freighter new-hire you will be given a choice of whatever base is available at the time in your base area (North America). Currently, I believe LAX, JFK and ORD are available for F/O's. I have not seen ANC open for F/O's or Capt's for a couple of years. Not sure why as ANC is obviously a hub for the freighter operation. I know in the past year a couple of pilots have requested to move to ANC and were turned down.

Your schedule/roster is sent to you by the 15/16 of every month for the following month. You have VERY LITTLE input to the roster. Requested days off are sometimes granted but more often NOT. You have a JOKER option, 1 every six months, when you can specify up to 5 days off in a row with 100% assurance if you follow a few rules.

You can remain on freighters until a freighter command is available and avoid passenger flying but since a USA based passenger F/O makes the same as a freighter Captain, you just may reconsider.

Good luck
;)

[cpdude]

Just found out that ANC IS OPEN for F/O's as is LAX and JFK.

[TWApilot]

Bummer about not having much input on the schedule. Would you say most of the schedules are OK, or do a lot of people complain about them?

I was under the impression that all the pilots on the passenger side were based in Hong Kong. I guess that is not true. But I did read that if you go to the passenger fleet, you would have to move to Hong Kong. Is that a requirement to work the passenger side initially before being allowed to bid to other domiciles, or did I just have some bad info?

Thanks

[cpdude]

The good rosters are 11-12 days away per month. The bad ones are 16-17 days away. Trips are 5-11 days in length.

So a bad schedule would be 6 days on, 4 days off then 10-11 days on or some variation of that. Others can get 6 on, 7 off then 6 on. Remember if you don't live at your base then the commute is on your time. What is frustrating is that some work much harder than others for no reason at all!

As for going to the passenger fleet, yes you must go to Hong Kong but as soon as you arrive you can bid for a NA base if available and often start that base the following month meaning only one month approx. in HK.:)

[The Ripper]

Does anyone know what the North American bases are for the passenger side at Cathay?

[404 Titan]

The Ripper

At present four bases. LA & SF are B744, Vancouver and Toronto are Airbus. Minimum rank is FO and it is awarded in seniority order.

[cpdude]

YVR is both an Airbus and B744 base.:)

[cpdude]

Not at this time.:)

[The Ripper]

404 Titatn....

Thanks for the info.

[brushwing]

TWA Pilot, if you think AA Pilots stole your seniority, just wait and see what CX management will do.

Cx is not all that good really, sure it is a job right now when there are few other jobs around, but to have a career here and to plan to work until retirement is a bit hard since they constantly degrade your COS and only honor it when it suits them.

There is a Icahn here too, called Swire, same love towards employees and care about human life (other than their own)

[cpdude]

Brushwing... let's put things into perspective here. If I could just magically assume a 20 year seniority in any airline I wish, it would not be Cathay. The 80's made many multi-millionaires in Cathay but those days are gone forever. But, most of the readers/posters here including the thread author are curious about Cathay as a possible future employer. For a new joiner, I cannot think of a better airline in the world.

Cathay pilots do not have to worry about lay-offs like ALL North American pilots and most other pilots around the world. We don't have to sit in some crapped out steam driven junk flying 8 or 9 sectors for 12-14 hours with two pilots. We don't have to worry about our company funded pensions and if we will ever collect one because we can get the money (15.5%) up-front. We can but don't have to reside in HK or our home country as many overseas basings are available if we wish. We still get 6 weeks vacation which is above standard for many airlines. We have a good security package in case of long term illness and so on and so on.

Are there problems at Cathay? Sure there are but what airline do you suggest is all roses? If there was one I’m sure we would all know about it.

Bottom line, conditions have deteriorated enormously at Cathay but that is not to say they are now bad. They are still above average on most fronts and more in line with many carriers of the world. It's all about relativity because they used to be so good it was embarrassing.
:ok:

[TWApilot]

Well put, cpdude!

Quality of life at virtually all airlines has gone downhill since the glory days of the 50s and 60s. No airline can match the TWA and the PanAm of that era.

You can point out the negatives at Cathay, but I must point out that it is still head and shoulders above what practically every other airline has now become.

[cpdude]

What is sad is that many cathay pilots have difficulty seeing what they have. I sit and compare notes with other airline pilots and they are mostly envious. There are many different salary scales in Cathay. A, B and Freighter/Cargo some have called C scale. I would have to say that the majority of the unhappy campers are B scale or the youngest A scalers. People who live in the past and wish they had what they don't have are never happy.

Funny, the lowest paid pilots in Cathay are the happiest. I guess the glory days of Cathay were so long before their time that they don't bother thinking about it.
:)

[brushwing]

Cpdude, ever work at another big airline?
What North American MAJOR flies 8-10 legs a day (calling it a sector is ****** talk)
Compare CX with what they want to be...A MAJOR Airline, and they are still running the show like a small out fit.
CX is great if you compare it to commuter airlines or third world nations (one world partners?).
I admit CX is ok, not great, BUT you must ask yourself- WHAT kind of future can you plan for at this great airline, how many more degradations. If the trend continues there wont be much insentive to come to work in a few years. A long term career at CX is hard to see. Do you CP dude ever look for what the future can bring, or what you can do today to ensure that the future at CX will be one that you can endure.

"For a new joiner I can not think of a better company to join" as I new joiner I would look for - Growth (CX has limited, limited, controlled and planned growth)
-Airplane orders (cx has none a 777 and a 330 to come next month or year)
-Quick upgrades (CX is 10 years, and not everybody gets their chance)
-A good report with labour (CX has a shady and sad report)
-your number is 1800 on a seniority list with no airplane orders and they will extend the reitrement age by 5 years= slow upgrade.

So for a new joiner I would if you have to come to Hong Kong look at DragonAir for instance?
****ty rosters
Airplane orders (double in size -2005)
quick upgrades (less than one year in some cases, but 2 years or so)
the ususal bullsh"t with Hong Kong

I just want people to know CX is not all that good as people make it sound. Very few people I know Love cathay with the passion that Cpdude seems to.

The happy campers at CX are mostly new and it takes a while for the CX story and treatment to sink in, give it a few years my friend, then ask if they are as happy? 3-4 years to upgrade to JFO at the moment.
CX can make some changes to improve things, and it would be better...I go as far as saying CX has the potential of becoming a good company to work for, but I do not have the warm and fuzzy feeling I want from my employeer.

[cpdude]

Brushwing...

"I would look for - Growth (CX has limited, limited, controlled and planned growth)" sounds just right to me!
Aggresive expansion will and has caused large lay-offs which won't happen at Cathay.

"3-4 years to upgrade to JFO at the moment." Changes all the time. Just two years ago it was 18-24 months. Also, even if it jumped past 3 years during a crunch, not bad for a SO who could have been hired with as little as 1500 hrs.

FYI, command on a B747F can be as little as two years for a new hire with the experience and most if not all freighter F/O's meet the hours requirement. B744F commands are about 4-5 years from hiring.

Your glass is obviously half empty and maybe you would be happier someplace else but please don't stick around and just complain.
;)

[brushwing]

Lets continue on Cprune

[FlexibleResponse]

cpdude

With regards to your comment that "command on a B747F can be as little as two years for a new hire "Can you enlighten us on the current success rate of recent candidates?

Any comments on Liam Gallagher's assertation that: "so many seemingly good command candidates get nailed by the "star chamber" in recent times. Most nailed during, a couple after and many even before, the Classic Freighter Command Course."?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=109708

And what are your thoughts about the rumours of special one year contracts to be offered to mainline retirees and extending pax fleet Captains on one year contracts for frieght operations?

[pablo shaglo]

cpdude

While I am impressed by your attempt to put CX and the terrible degredation in our pay and benefits in perspective vis a vis the rest of the industry, you have omitted a few important historical and empirical points that are of extreme importance to any prospective new hire, be they freighter or PAX Pilots.

Firstly:
In July 2001 Senior Management fired 52 Pilots (originally it was believed that 49 had been fired, hence the term 49ers) comprising the majority of the HKAOA General Committee, a senior -400 Captain 3 months away from retirement and the rest made up of Check and Training Captains, Senior Captains, Captains, First and Second officers in an anti-union tactic as a direct result of the HKAOA membership instituting a Maximum Safety Campaign (work to rule). This cowardly act they chose rather than negotiate with the legal representatives of the CX Pilot workforce. This action has no precedent in modern airline labour relations and is regarded the world over as the most despicable airline management act in living memory.
Oh yes, I forgot, also included in the 52 were the Chairman and Vice-Chairman of the Sunny Side club, a Hong kong charity that benefits critically ill children. Work that these 2 Pilots in question did on their own time often devoting days at a time.
Official Senior Management reasons given for this action included the phrase "for no particular reason". Many of the 52 had no idea that they were involved until they called the scheduling department inquiring about thier rosters. One showed up in uniform to fly his next trip and could not get through security as his electronic pass had been invalidated. A Junior Manager was hastily dispatched to the Crew entrance of the Head Office and a very embarrasssing conversation ensued.
Most of the 52 had no reason to believe that they were earmarked for termination. Most had little contact with thier Managers, one had not been to his fleet office in 6 months. All did thier jobs safely and professionally while employed at Cathay. Tragically, one of the younger of the 52 has since died.
Things did not end there. After the 52 received 3 months salary as part of the contractual termination package, Senior and Middle Managers contacted the Hong Kong Tax Department and underhandedly lied to senior Tax Dept. officials, informing them that the 52 represented a flight risk. The HK Tax Dept. then, inexplicably, over taxed these 52 and sent out immediate demands for over-assessed taxes owed based on this advice. Many could not pay the excessive amounts and had to borrow money from the HKAOA so that they could stay out of default - an offence in Hong Kong. All who lived in CX directly provided accommodation were given no notice for themselves and thier famillies to vacate immediately. Some 2 years 5 months on from this disgusting act, CX is being forced to atone for its behavior in legal forums around the world.

Secondly:
As an employee working for a Hong Kong based company any new hire can expect no labour protection from the Hong Kong government what-so-ever. An employee contract is not worth the paper it is wriiten on as anyone can be fired for no reason, with 3 months pay in lieu of notice. What this means, practically, is that you and your family can be nicely settled in you home enjoying the fruits of your labours only to be informed the next day that you are terminated for no particular reason and that you must leave your home immediately if you reside in company provided accommodation. This scenario is true for any expatriate who works in Hong Kong in any position. Trade Unions in Hong Kong are legally powerless to do anything to counteract a vindictive, unfair employer.

Case in point:
I was watching the news in Hong Kong recently and the Chairman of a prominent Hong Kong bank was giving his plan for downsizing his staff out of seniority order. These included natural wastage and termination of contractors etc. I then turned the channel and watched the same interview on Chinese language TV. The same Chairman, in person, was saying that the downsizing would occur as a result "of the firing of the elderly, disabled and useless". I never heard anything else on this subject from either the press or the Government.

So you can see, TWApilot, that while the superficial attraction of a seemingly stable career at a major worldwide airline such as Cathay Pacific in Hong Kong (or at any one of its crew bases) is something that would appeal greatly, particularly to one who is furloughed, you would be well advised to look elsewhere at the moment. I do sympathise with you and the treatment you received at the hands of American Airlines, a few friends of mine are in the same situatuion. If you come to Cathay Pacific Airways, that same atmosphere prevails here. To my mind it is no coincidence that One World founding partners are directly involved in such cowardly, inhuman acts. Obviously, the co-mingling of passengers and facilities are not the only things that One World partners materially share.