VFR on top

[WLM]

Hi!
I have just been to Malaysia, where I did a check flight to convert my CPL (H). The instructor was FAA trained and we had an "interesting" discussion about flying VFR on top. As far as he was concerned, he would never fly below cloud ceiling, but climb and fly above the bad weather, then use the IFR GPS and dead reckoning to reach his destination. At the time we had 6/8 of clouds....When I pointed it was not really an option for Oz pilots, I was made to understand we (Oz) did not have the required aptitude for bad weather flying...Further more, this instructor told me there is a distinct difference between IFR VMC and IFR IMC. I was a little concerned at the statement as I do believe that IFR is what it says Instrument Flight Rules, whether you can see or not, except of course departure and approach requirements.
For the non Malaysia experienced, the landscape incorporates lots of mountains (4000+feet), jungles and associated tropical weather.
As far as I am concerned, bad weather means staying on the ground. Ah, yes, accepted practice of over loading the aircraft is another story:uhoh: :uhoh:

[Gomer Pylot]

In the U.S., "VFR on top" is an IFR clearance. "VFR over the top" is a VFR operation. There are different rules for the two.

VFR, VMC, IFR, and IMC are all different things. You can be IFR in VMC, VFR in IMC, and all combinations. VMC and IMC refer to the actual weather conditions, and VFR and IFR refer to flight rules. And rules and safety don't necessarily coincide. Flying over the top of a broken cloud deck over water isn't the same as flying over a broken deck over mountainous terrain. The rules might be the same, but judgment may dictate otherwise.

[JimL]

Gomer - Are you sure that you can be VFR in IMC?

WLM - do not be coerced by someone who applies their own twisted standards in an inappropriate situation. If you had expressed such heresy in a check ride with a more responsible instructor - you would not have passed the check!

[Steve76]

I think he means you can be VFR off an IFR clearance.
There is also SpecialVFR for WX conditions below VFR. Used for entering or exiting a zone only.

[Gomer Pylot]

Yes, in the US in Class G airspace, an IFR clearance is not required, so technically you're VFR. Less than 3 miles vis is IMC, and we fly with 1 mile often. Under Part 91, all that is required is clear of clouds.

I've been told that in England you can also fly in uncontrolled airspace in IMC without a clearance.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Of course you can fly IMC outside controlled airspace without a "clearance". How could you possibly have a "clearance" outside controlled airspace, where by definition no one can "clear" or "control" you to do anything?

Even given 1/1 COCISS how can you possibly be VFR if you cannot see the ground to navigate? VFR on top? Cowboy territory. How can you guarantee to be able to recover visually if you are not in sight od the surface? You cannot.

QED

[Helinut]

Ab,

In the UK VFR on top is definitely possible (within the rules) - this is not to say that it is always sensible, but that is rather a different question.

GP

In the UK if you are IMC the flight must be conducted IFR (unless SVFR is possible and granted by ATC). However, outside controlled airspace you do not need a clearance nor do you need to file a flight plan to fly IFR.

[BlenderPilot]

Let's see . . . .


Over here VFR, VMC, IMC, IFR, ABC, XYZ are all the same, there are no clear rules or anybody to enforce them, pilots flying down here don't have a nice, clear set of rules to decide for them, so if your are used to fly in the UK or US for example where there's is a rule to fit every occasion, what are you going to do when you come down here? Who is going to decide for you?

I would stop worrying so much about the rules and worry about what's more important, IT"S ONLY ABOUT COMMON SENSE, and that means you have to learn to consider not only the legal factors, but mostly the technical operational factors of the flight,

Things to consider before going on top for me,

How bad do I want to get there?

If you go on top, can you climb safely without hitting anything?

There are tons of 10,000 FT mountains around here and many right by the sea, that means you better know what you are climbing towards, you are not climbing controlled by anyone, also be sure to not to intrude in any airways or approaches, and if you do, then contact ATC.

Single engine or twin?

Are you going to have a problem with icing or thunderstorms, during the climb?

If something goes wrong and you have to come down, return, what are your options?

Climbing around here to clear WX usually means going up to something between 10-15,000 FT, (the ground is already at 8,000 FT) what is your climb performance are you heavy? and how long are you going to stay up there?

Most importantly how are you going to get down? I always carry app plates with me of the places I am going to, just in case but this would be only as a last resort since a single pilot IFR/IMC approach to minimums is not a fun thing to do when your nearest alternate is hundreds of miles away, its getting dark and fuel is not in abundance.

In many places you lose contact with ATC if not within 20 NM from the airport, there are not many controlled airports with radar service, and sometimes you make approaches without even talking to ATC because he's gone to buy food.

Now, on the other side if you fly below the WX, there are tons of traps. Humid air coming from the pacific, Caribbean, GOM, high mountains, millions of small unmarked wires in places you never imagined, MW antennas, canyons to get trapped in, high winds, and no lighted ground references in case it gets dark. You can have clear VMC on one side of the mountains and solid layered overcast on the other.

So you see my point is you have to be able to fly anywhere not just where there are rules, and for that you have to learn to evaluate using your aeronautical decision making skills and knowledge. To me that is much more important.

I am not saying, just disregard the rules, it's never nice to get in trouble, but worry about what truly matters most first. It will keep you out of the worst kind of trouble.

One good example:

The last time I went fly a helicopter to the U.S. I was flying a B222 to Addison, in Dallas there were two of us who departed Laredo on a Special VFR clearance to San Antonio, about the same time, I found out it was VFR on top all the way to San Antonio where I had to stop for fuel, so we legally climbed up to something around 9,000 and flew to San Antonio and when we got there it was the thickest and most solid overcast you can get your eyes on, fortunately I had the approach plates to at least San Antonio, and I was buying a bagel not much later and the other guy had to declare an emergency and request an ASR approach (no plates just vectors, and altitudes) and had a hard time getting down. We both followed the rules as far as going on top meant, but it didn't keep the other guy out of trouble.

[Steve76]

.....sounds like they don't pay you enough BP :p

[WLM]

:}Gentlemen
Thank you for your replies. It confirms my thoughts that IFR is for experienced and qualified pilots. It is on the border of insanity to allow a VFR rated pilot loose "over the top" or "on the top". Yes I entirely agree that personal judgement is the key, but it clearly can be confused by external pressures and or statements. In my case, I made my point with the instructor concerned and will fly according to my capabilities, not his.
:D :D

[CyclicRick]

VFR "on top"
In this neck of the woods it's perfectly legal to do so, the only stipulation is that you have a cloudbase of at least 1000ft GND and you are 1000ft above tops and that you have managed to get there VFR/VMC and can get back down again VFR/VMC single or twin.
Let VFR pilots "loose" on top, bit strong methinks. I've done it loads of times, beautiful weather on top (8/8 blue), smooth as a duck pond, favourable winds etc.
BUT!! I've always checked my weather VERY carefully and made sure that my alternate is clear and that I have more than one option IF it should clag in en-route at any time.
:ok: