2003 cadets will be employed by Air North as First Officers on Brasilias

[GeeBeeZee]

2003 cadets will be employed by Air North as First Officers on Brasilias!!!

Could not believe my own scoop................

What does everyone think?, FO with 200 hours ?

keep it clean tho

kind of a kick in the arse for all those GA dude/dudettes with 1500hrs trying to get a right hand seat.

geebeezee

[Sheep Guts]

How many Cadets could they absorb? Surely not all of them.

I agree, its a bit of a kick in backside for the GA Bush drivers accumulating those hours to get to those positions. But somehow I dont think Air North will confine all it recruiting to Cadets only. No amount of Training can replace experience and Local Knowlegde.
Theyve allready been using Cadets before I believe. I think theyve had sucess with this in the past. Only an external viewers opinion though.

I would have thought put them on the Metro first.

Regards
Sheep

[thinking pilot]

Mr Sheep

It,s a real kick up the arse as you said for all the guys and girls who have toiled away for years and years.

How proficient is a 200 hour pilot going to be when the s**t hits the fan.

How many cadets have been employed by Air North over the last few years.

As we all know life is not fair.

[quikSILVA]

Are you guys/gals sure Air North are going to gamble their reputation on low time pilots such as the cadets?? Do they need an interview or flight test, or are they considered up to standard simply because of their status? Makes you wonder how the HARD WORKING GA pilots get anywhere when possible jobs are handed on a plate to inexperienced pilots... :yuk:

[redsnail]

What's mildly amusing is that in the UK the low houred pilots think they are hard done by if they have to do turboprop time. After 500 hours FO (oh sorry, P1-US) on them, they are more than ready for command or jets.
Just ask them....

[Transition Layer]

2003 Cadets!!! I didn't realise their fleet was that big!

On a serious note, who are these cadets? You aren't referring to Qantas ones are you?

TL

[ITCZ]

Are you guys/gals sure Air North are going to gamble their reputation on low time pilots such as the cadets??

HOO hoo haw haw har har, aah, chortle chortle chortle, ha ha ha hoo hoo hoo....

Gamble their REPUTATION! When I was working there they were trying to LOSE their reputation!!

And that wasn't THAT long ago!

Question: Why did ANR management decide in 1996 to promote C210 pilots first to the rhs of the metro, then to the C402, rather than the other way around?

Answer: Because anybody that had 500 multi command before starting on the metro ******ed off within 200-400 hrs metro to kendell or hazo's. Nil-twin-command pilots stayed in the rhs for at least 1000hrs.

So training and retention triumphed over experience, then as now.

------
Yes, QF cadets. Good luck to them. Probably a MUCH better first job than working it out by yourself while trusting pax are in the back.

Bush guys and girls, don't fret. Cadets might take the rhs, but they cannot move to the left. There are two or three ex-Ansett cadets that are stuck in rhs Bras for over two years now. No 500 multi command. Sitting there watching less senior lads/lasses moving to command. Cuts both ways

-----

Only two years ago, the ex-airnorth on the resume was interpreted as -- probably practical, probably knows how to hustle the day along, probably cuts more than a few corners, and not too much expected of technical and professional knowledge, a slightly glorified bush pilot!

It was actually quite a well run outfit under D.R., metros in better shape and better equipped than the kendell buckets that we cross-hired, worked bloody hard day after day, and some pretty sharp operators there...

But that wasn't what the rest of the industry thought....

-----

Hoo-er, think I'll ring the boys, they will love that quote above...:ok:

[bush mechanics]

ICTV,we probaly know each other as i too worked for ANR untill the split from ANR Central.I reckon you are talking about kendal metro,VH-!@#KED.Yes it spent alot of time in the hagar in Darwin.Kendals did OK as they got a pretty good a/c back.DR was alot beter than KP,
Cheers.
Bush

[Sheep Guts]

Redsnail,
I empathise with you.It must frustrating working with guys like that wet behind the ears but veterans in their own Lunch Box.

Here in the Carib the same thing was happening for awhile with a Certain Carribean Flag Carrier until a few incidents and accidents occurred, causing the Local CAA to focus on their recruiting. There was alot of Sons and Daughters getting in with under 200 tt all C172, into RHS of A320. Now they have raised their entry requirements to 750 hrs TT . Which has helped the situation.

Regarding what happening at ANR I think they have enough expereince to make an educated decision. Interesting to know how the Current Ansett Cadets are gowing and has it been a success?


Sheep

[Raingauge]

This is all fantastic...just what I needed to hear. I've spent the past however many years a trillion Km's from home building up hours to try and climb the lader of aviation and now I find out I could of stayed at home with my 200hours playing PS2 all day and wait for this to come up. Nah, I don't really think that (well not quite), but it is dissapointing to think no matter how many hours you have it's never the right amount. :ugh:

Mind you on the other hand, these disc jockys aren't going to get a command any time soon so they'll probably be spewing in a few years time.

[Transition Layer]

Speaking to some guys who have just done interviews for 2004 Qantas Cadet course, and they were told that, quote "once they have finished the course they will be expected to work in GA for 1-2 years" unquote.

If Airnorth is considered GA then ****** me!

:eek:

TL

[Poto]

Raingauge, I don't think a 200hour QF cadet gives a rats about a command they are more interested in when the S/O slots comes up!:{

[*Lancer*]

Mustn't ever forget how wet-behind-the-ears and veterans-in-their-own-lunchbox these cadets are!! They probably had to get their Captain/parent to drive them into the interview!!

Come ON - does this generalising rubbish STILL happen on PPRuNe!?! :* :ugh:

quikSILVA, welcome to the board! Although I'm struggling to put your post into context considering you're apparently a "student," interested in "becoming a commercial airline pilot"...

Lancer

[downwind]

Guys,

This is both a good and bad idea for AN;

one can say that your average GA pilot with say 2000 hrs, might have really bad habbits to iron out in a multi crew airline enviroment, but I have meet some really excellent operators in GA who would fly rings around the QF cadet's (so it can go both ways, it really depends on ones personal ability when it comes to mastering a/c above 5700kgs with complicated systems).

If the cadets are well trained it is possible for a 190-200 hr'ish guy to hop into the RHS and do a reasonable job, but what happens when a real emergency occurs, we really don't know how cadets or a high time pilot will react with real life emergencys, it is a different panic to the simulators, or EFATO drills!

How are the QF cadets going to be trained at the flying schools in Oz with a B200 training a/c or actually doing a braz flightsafety course in the USA??? to see if they can really fly the a/c???

Remeber thought that KD and flightwest, skywest used to puts ANSETT cadets from Tamworth into the RHS of turboprop with 200 hrs, but most of these people are still F/O's no command m/e time.

Any comments to the post?

[Sheep Guts]

One thing Downwind. HignTime Pilots would have had allready had to react to some sort of incident , accident, or situation ( experience), compared to the Abinitio 200 Hr Person. So there lies in the essential difference, nough said really.

But then again once hes been checked to line, hes ahead of the poor Bush pilot.
Cadet Schemes have generaly been the Mastermind of Captains who want to get there Sons and Daughters Jobs over the years, without their poor kids getting their hand dirty. Boys Club stuff really!

This is why these Schemes run Hot and Cold and are the first Programmes to get canned when the Bean Counters come running.

My 2 cents worth,

Sheep

[Spinnerhead]

Downwind

What about all the airline bad habits that have to ironed out of the cadets when they return to GA. In my experience 80% of the cadets that come out of these programs into GA are quite frankly useless. They can't calculate a LSA, can't do an approach to save themselves, don't know the first thing about fuel management, and havn't the faintest idea what the definition of an INTER is.

This would be expected of a low time pilot in GA and you expect to have to teach them. The cadet graduates however, because they have been immersed in airline cotton wool and have 1000+hrs, think they already know it all and it therefore takes 3 times as long to sort them out.

Now on the other side of the equation, I have always found aircraft with cadets on board difficult to deal with (I figure they are cadets because they talk like they should be in the circuit at a GAAP somewhere). I don't know why as there should be someone on board that knows what they are doing, maybe they are too busy pulling their hair out whilst trying to teach the cadet how to fly!

Multicrew aircraft should have two heads up front that know what they are doing, not a babysitter and their child.

[quikSILVA]

Fair Point Downwind - I just havn't updated my personal file in a couple of years :D ps. thanx for the 'welcome aboard'

qS

[Keg]

Spinner, you're kidding aren't you?

Last time I checked, knowing all those definitions were part of the IR test and renewal. I've not come across a cadet in QF who didn't know those types of things. Besides that, I think you'd find a lot of people who have been in an airline for a bunch of years have forgotten how to work out LSALTs etc so that isn't a 'cadet' specific issue! (12 degrees from a hard fix isn't it? ;) )

As for your next statement, what the? I've found some aircraft with former military pilots as captains hard to deal with. I've found some aircraft with former GA drivers as Captains hard to deal with. I've found some aircraft with former cadets as captains hard to deal with. Big deal. There are idiots and morons all over the place.

Oh my gosh. I only had 1500 hours when I was first left alone at the controls of a 767 with a second officer. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Get real. I jumped through the same fiery hoops as every other pilot in Qantas. Some of the posts on this thread certainly fit the mould as 'childish' so it's probably just as well that you view the 'other' pilot as the baby sitter.

Interestingly, the pass/fail rate on F/O training for former cadets is EXACTLY the same as those from GA and the military.

[bitter balance]

Spinnerhead - do you expect your post to be taken seriously? You can identify pilots as cadets because they aren't good on the radio?

There may be many valid arguments against cadet programs in regional airlines but I haven’t seen any here. Surely we are beyond infantile postings about safety. Cadets have been employed and have operated successfully, safely and professionally in many regional airlines in Oz (and surrounds) for many years.

To see how irrelevant the safety argument is just flick through your volume of "RPT accidents in Australia caused by Cadets". It's a short book. Fair enough, just turn to "RPT Accidents in the USA/Europe caused by Cadets". That's a short book too. Just to round off try Macarthur Job's books and read through some accidents where the crews had a combined 25,000+ hours between them. That can't be right though could it? Isn't it all about the size of your log book?

[downwind]

Sheepy,

"One thing Downwind. HignTime Pilots would have had allready had to react to some sort of incident , accident, or situation ( experience), compared to the Abinitio 200 Hr Person. So there lies in the essential difference, nough said really".

I agree about about expirience, but I don't agree with with an accident or close shave scenario, only for a few pilots from time to time over a established flying career.

BTW are the goldenboys going to Easterns/sunstate? (might need some comments from Hugharse)

It is possible for a cadet to go into the RHS of a turboprop, but why do QF persist to do the cadetship with the way the industry is in at the moment at this time, Oz has plently of excellent pilots with hours, so why do they do this???? BTW what is the history of the goldenboy cadetship.. serious answers only!!!!!

[High Altitude]

Its not about pilots!

Its about business making profitable decissions why else would it be done?

[GoNorth]

High Alt. How is it profitable???

An FO on a Bras with 200 hours is paid the same as an FO with 2500 hours. Length of service shouldn't be an issue due to bonding. After a year or two the low time pilot and the experienced pilot would be both trying to get in with qantas or the likes so both just as likely to leave.

I can't see any profit/money issues here. Maybe someone else can show me the light :cool:

[scud_runner]

I would argue that a cadet would cost you more money because you have to spend the money on training. (unless the casets are paying it themselves!! That could be a financial winner for Airnorth) QF have discovered this for themselves in the last 12 months. Kegs claim of the pass rate being the same I don't think is entirely correct.

Wouldn't mind hearing a QF 737 Captain's thoughts on this topic:E

[GeeBeeZee]

Many interesting points of view, and the usual slanging match at cadets.

First thing first i have nothing against cadets, If you can get in then its a gravy train compared to GA, i know some cadets are great pilots but there are also allot of arrogant little sh*ts.

From my point of view i find it hard to understand what makes a cadet so special, Why would and airline go through all the time/money/effort to train up some 17 year old then move them up to Darwin to get experience for a few years in GA.

Why does qantas bother with these cadets when they can easily go to ****** or AIRNORTH ..... and get a GA FO or Capt. (and dont tell me 80% of the guys would jump to upgrade to big jets and big bucks)

Oh and they spend all this effort for what?, oh that’s right he can rearrange cubes in his head and look and some stupid abstract patterns and find a similarity. Really why doesn’t Qantas try looking at a pilots qualifications, i would think that these are more of a judge of their ability.

I certainly hope that cadets is a way for Captains to get the sons hired cause otherwise it just does not make sense.

GeeBeeZee

[Mr Garrison]

I tend to agree with GeeBeeZee there..........I mean there are a lot of guys that can rotate cubes and stuff like that in their head and do it quickly to the airlines satisfaction but does this mean that one is now ready to be interviewed by an airline for a job??........

Gee I would of thought that if QF was going to spend a million dollars on training a pilot over a given time span, then they would want to know if the guy could fly first and foremost..........thats the way the RAAF do it anyway.

I also believe that a cadet should be tested for his management and priority skills and these skills tend to be more utilised in advanced aircraft these days due to all the systems on board that allow hands free flying, so airline pilots these days are more managers and operators than they were in the past.

I spoke to one QF captain and he told me that he elects to engage the autopilot at 800 feet and will disconnect it when there close to approaching the glide slope............geez - that says to me that you have to be good at managing an airplane and where does the cube rotation part come into this?!! - you tell me!

I believe the skills test is basically a filtering mechanism because there is an oversupply of wannabee pilots that apply and they can't afford to interview every one of them so they give em a few little pointless tests but thats not to say they are going to make good pilots.........I think QF should adapt a recruitment style that is a cross between Virgin and RAAF......maybe that would produce a fairer and safer system.

[Poto]

Mr Garrison, The RAAF have an almost identical filtering system for pilot testing as the QF stage one.
The Virgin process seems to be entirely based on recommendation. This is the ultimate Old Boys club. Whilst I don't necessarily disagree that this is a good way of keeping ******s out your airline; ******s tend to filter through even the most water tight system.
Some great drivers never get a shot at the Job because some ****** doesn't like them (for whatever reason) or they don't know anyone important and are therefore not recommended.
The Old boys club CAN be detrimental to a fair process which may turn up the best candidate.

The QF stage one filter might be bollocks but as long as you meet the minimum prerequisite educational requirements (I know another filter bollocks) you and everyone else WILL get a shot! To my mind that is a fairer recruitment process.:ok:

[Keg]

Righto scud, I'm not up to speed on 737 pass rates at the moment but I can tell you the 767 and classic ones! :ok:

[Gnadenburg]

bitter balance

Fairly limited research or haven't you read the book "RPT Accidents In The Mid-East/Asia Caused By Cadets"?

Caused should of course be changed to contributed.

I won't enter the emotionally charged debate regarding cadets in the benign Australian environment. I will say my disapproval due the erosion of conditions that occur to pilot salaries when experience means little.

Another consideration, though probably not relevant to Australia, is how successfully do Cadet's upgrade when the commercial pressure is on? Many rapidly expanding foreign airlines have discovered flaws in Cadet Programmes as upgrading within a 5 year period unlikely.

Actually, flaws in Cadet Programmes are probably why many expats have jobs at all!

[Keg]

Hey Gnade, University of Texas shows that QF domestic crews face 33% more 'threats' than our American bretheren. QF International crews face about double the threats of our American bretheren.

Sure, when the yanks get weather, they get it BIG but those are the stats. Shocked a lot of people and I'm STILL questioning the methodology but am assured by reports seen by Uni Texas that methodology was the same for other carriers. Lies, damn lies and statistics I guess. :}

[U2]

Guys and gals, its always to do with money. QF need to give the cadets jobs, otherwise the cadet won't keep enroling and paying big money to do it. Qantas needs the cash as it is losing money and cadet training staff need to justify there jobs. Airnorth needs to please QF as they do ALOT of business with each other. Airnorth need extra crews due to staff leaving for Qantas link, virgin etc and the new ASA deals means that they need extra staff to move to Adelaide. I've been told that many of the current crews don't want to move to adelaide, probably because they'll lose out on their command slots if they do.

Who knows maybe QF have organised some subsidy deal for airnorth to nurse the cadets or have tie knots on new commercial deals with airnorth?



Money and always money.

U2

[bitter balance]

U2 - QF don't get any $$ from the program. Its paid directly to the approved flying school.

[redsnail]

I was having a drink at the Hereford in London the other day (night??) with a few former AN, now QF crew as well as the captain.
We were all regailing each other about tales of flying and where we started and types yadda yadda. Even the captain was reminiscing about flying Mooney's doing bank runs etc. (not to mention the mighty Shed)
A couple of poms were trying to have a go and see if we'd seen our own country. He picked the wrong table to offer that challenge. :D Howls of laughter followed that one. (I wonder how Billabong girl got on? You had to be there I guess)

If the cadets get some experience on more "hands on" types prior to going to the big jets then it can't hurt. Personally, I reckon they've missed out on the fun* part of commercial aviation but hey, they are making the big bucks....

* yeah I know, working flat out, hot conditions, not brilliant money, ancient slugwagons etc...

[VH-ABC]

Well said Redtail, I reckon it's more about the journey too. Would love to be able to, one day, say that I've flown a tiger moth and a 747, and everything in between, all over the world. Think the cadets may miss that opportunity... but wonder if they'd care?

[Keg]

Wonder no more ABC. I certainly miss not having done THY as far as GA is concerned. Most other cadets I've spoken to think similarly. I still managed to do some 'fun' stuff along the way- a Duchess charter from Camden to Lismore and via Armidale, Tamworth and Taree on the way back as well as a few other bits and piece- but I'll always miss not having done some of the more 'interesting' parts of GA.

That said, I haven't met many people in QF that wouldn't have traded that 'fun stuff' in a blink' in order to get into QF earlier. Sure, no one has any regrets about GA and most blokes speak 'well' of it but no one deludes themselves about where the 'better' place to be is and the sooner you can get there, the better off you are- not skills necessarily but family, pay, stability, etc.

Sorry to dispel another possible myth about cadets.

[bitter balance]

Gnadenburg - not at all, I considered it and dismissed it. I think cultural and political issues are far more relevant to RPT accidents in the Mid East/South East Asia than cadet programs.

To pick you up on the "benign" Australian environment - don't QF cadets spend most of their time in international airspace?

[stillalbatross]

Keg & VHF, reason I'd pick cadet route instead of via GA is because a few mates, and good guys at that, couldn't get out of GA for whatever reason. So you can't really say you're better off going via GA when that secure mainline or longhaul job might never eventuate. And you might be stuck doing 30 years in rough old 402s for even rougher operators.

Other funny thing here is that people slag off the cadets but no-one ever slags off the flt ops management in Qantas who keep the cadet program going. From talking to a couple of QF captains over a beer one put their offspring via the cadet course because the extra years on the super fund (3-5) meant the Cadet could ditch Qantas earlier if he wanted to.

7 cadets and 5 Emb slots available so if they can't find two more slots then the two guys will go to Qantas direct.

[scud_runner]

I think we should be looking at accidents in 30 years time when todays cadets are Captains. Then we will know how good or bad these schemes are. Comparing accidents of today and looking for cadets is a waste of time because none of them have command of the aircraft. The rubber will hit the road when cadets take command of a heavy jet with 100 hours experience in command. FLying around in the RH seat is one thing, taking full command and the buck stopping with you is entirely another. Time will tell.

Keg is it not true that QF have added an extra check for cadets because they had so many guys failing and or pulled off line due to lack of flying ability???

[Hugh Jarse]

I think we should be looking at accidents in 30 years time when todays cadets are Captains Keg, tell Scud Runner how long the QF Cadet Scheme has been running. I thought since at least the early seventies, so there should already be some quantifiable data out there:}

From experience, cadets are no less or more capable (flying-wise) on average than a self-funded candidate during their training.

[avguy1]

AIBS is alive and well. This is a boon for GA guys. Basically it open up 60 start dates previously spoken for in the next two years.

look at he big picture
Avguy

[scud_runner]

Just on the original topic for a second, it just goes to show what a load of rubbish these 'minimum requirements' turned out be. How do they go from having minimums of thousands of hours and 500 multi etc etc etc to recruiting guys with 200 hours??!!!

Hugh

BIG difference between the original cadet scheme in the 70's and today.

1. The best people were selected (apparantly!!) and having the ability to pay was not a criteria. So a guy who's parents were not loaded had just as good a chance as someone who had family money.

2. The 70's cadets went and worked in GA for a few years THEN went to Qantas.

The original cadets of the 70's actually had some flying experience when they jumped into a 747 etc as opposed to the cadets of today who are lucky to have 100 hours in command. Hence my point about accidents in the future. Cadets of today will taking command of a 747 with around 100 hours of command experience. The cadets of the past got commands with around about 1000+ hours in command. BIG BIG DIFFERENCE!!

Also just hands on flying skills is only one part of being a pilot. From what experinece does a 100 hour captain draw upon?? It is one thing to be sitting in the RHS watching and being part of the decision making but not being ultimately not responsible. It is ENTIRELY ANOTHER to have YOUR butt on the line. That it the difference bewteen command time and Co-Pilot time. Anyway time will tell, I could be wrong and all these cadets will turn out to be the best captains ever!! Alternatively..............................

[Mr Garrison]

And let me just add, that if a cadet is employed as a SO or FO for say 10 years then they will gain command time but at a fraction of how long the flight took.

So you may have a pilot (ie -> cadet) with 2000 hours command built up over a period of time but most of that so called command time has been over water or land and the FMS is flying the plane.

When you compare this with an equivilant time pilot from GA, then you will find that he has had more stick time which has got to be more valuable right........chances are too that he has done a lot more t/o's and landings......another important aspect, and probably dealt with ****ty and troublesome customers which is all good experience in my view.

[High Altitude]

A GA pilot is a pilot who can handle alot of different situations. From dodging CB's to failing equipment the experience learnt is tremendous. GA guys with 2000+ hours have REAL flying experience and have more than likely moved up the tree from the start.

In no way do I intend to offend cadets but lets look at the command problem. 1000 hours metro RHS then into command in a 210, majority of the time the result is herrendous and the work load is simply too much. Mind you like anything some are great.

Now take that same cadet and advance him into the SO/ FO slot then the progression will be natural. As for eventually being command as a pax I feel I would want someone driving that had some real pressure command time (aka GA). However the cadets are trainined different to GA likewise the military. Each different method has its values and desired reults.

Interesting subject really...

[Cap10 Caveman]

Air North receives $10,000 per cadet, and secures them for 2 years. They've had cadets in the past and have been happy with the product so they have no hesitation about taking them on again.

I think QF should adapt a recruitment style that is a cross between Virgin and RAAF......maybe that would produce a fairer and safer system.

Mr Garrison, tell me, what is so unsafe about the QF system?

Good luck to all the cadets, prove these cynical bastards wrong!

Cheers,

CC

[Hatchet Harry]

I also heard that last time Air North took on Q Cadets the agreement was also that Qantas wouldn't poach any of the Air North drivers for a couple of years......

Is this true and if so is it gonna be the case again ?????:{ :{ :{

I'd be spewing if I was at Air North and this was the case.....

[Sheep Guts]

Cap 10 Cavemen,
If what you say is correct then thats explains the situation tremendously. Money Talks as the say. I would recruit a dozen Cadets if I was getting $10,000.00 up front for each one. :) Has parallels to ancient slave trading doesnt it. When the Slave Trader couldnt sell some of his Product, he would pay the buyer to take them away :). Only kidding.

What you missed out on learning before flying a larger Jet or Turboprop , you certainly wont learn once you are flying one. Thats for sure. No amount of training can replace experience.

Good Luck to the Cadet that get the chance

Regards
Sheep

[stillalbatross]

BA, Lufthansa, SAS and plenty of other airlines have cadets that don't mess with GA. And they seem to cope fine in a heavy. Why is it only Australians have a thing about the importance of GA and how that time in a sh*tbox 402 up north somewhere is going to prepare me better for flying my 747 into LA?

BA hires via GA as well and you don't hear them bitching on about the cadets. QF cadets are a bunch of people who have taken up an opportunity, if you were in their shoes you'd probably do the same.

[redsnail]

USA and Canada place importance on GA flying.

I have heard BA pilots bitch about cadets. I have also heard some low cost airline captains really bitch about low houred guys sitting in the RHS. Cadet or not. They just don't bitch about it publicly. I have heard my captains bitch about the low hour guys. (Note, some not all).
As they have said, you cannot take your eyes off them for a moment and they can be a bit of a liability when the weather is rubbish.

Note, some not all low houred guys.

[RENURPP]

If Airnorth is considered GA then ****** me!


Sorry, have to ask, what else could you call them???

[Sheep Guts]

Still albatros,
Yes fair comment, but I fear the situation is different in Europe because there really isnt much of a GA Job base for newcomers to get their hours, hence alot of Cadet schemes for the Big Carriers and wannabees going to the US and OZ to hour build etc. Different enviroments really. Its just us Ozzies going through a transition mate....allthough Cadet schemes been around for awhile in Oz.

Ah yes I would say any company that operates equipment under 5700kg are still GA and Air North still qualify.

Redsnail,
yYou are right about the US and Canada still have a reasonable GA base to get work prior to Airlines, plus lots of Corporate Jet Jobs " largest growing sector".

Sheep

[RHMM]

They have worked hard, they were the 3% to get through initial testing! How did you go?

Not all completed the course to Qantas standard, and therefore will not make it to Airnorth or ********.

I wonder how they (Qantas cadets) are feeling right now knowing the opinion of the crowd they will be flying with.

Those that did complete the course well done!

[Mr. Hat]

Sheep Guts said:

"What you missed out on learning before flying a larger Jet or Turboprop , you certainly wont learn once you are flying one. Thats for sure. No amount of training can replace experience."

And can I say that he has absolutely nailed it. I wish I had come up with that one.

The fact of the matter is that GA sorts out those that really really really want it. Cause if you've got any weakness in motivation toward a flying career you WILL fail in GA. It is just simply too hard to hack and too easy to give away. This is a classic example -Chap works for 5 yrs to get a job on a Bras only to get it pinched by someone with 200 hrs. What to do? Give up? Cry? Nah carry on - another day, another hurdle and the GA hard yarders never ever give up no matter how tough, gloomy and impossible it all seems.

Good luck to those who can miss all the blood sweat and tears of GA to get straight on a jet - I wish you well. All I can say is that IF I ever get a gig flying for the white rat or VB the feeling I will have and the value I will give to that position will be unmatched. The memories of GA and the determination required will always be there.

As for training - ah done that one to. Got a loan that you'd cringe at and did what the Ansetts and QF's wanted and I suppose still want. I can tell you that I knew sweet fark all about anything with my 200 hrs of academy training. Thats just me..oh and all the other course members....mmm...?

The command time has been great for my confidence, airmanship and general flying skills.

Good luck to all. Mr. Hat.

[altocu]

Well put Mr Hat

Couldn't agree more

Altocu

[High Altitude]

:ok: I take my hat of to Mr Hat. you nailed it.

Remember that movie... Field of dreams...

"If you build it they will come".

[*Lancer*]

Each to their own!

You're either suitable for the job or not, independant of your stereotyped background...

"Hours", "The Hard Yards", and "GA" are all valuable things that contribute to experience. But "experience" itself is too often brandied about to describe some unique unqualified talent everyone out in the bush magically aquires. The fact is, experience comes from a variety of sources, and is influenced by what you make of it. Experience is NOT the same as 'background'. You could have done all the stereotypical GA adventures and still be a 'liability' on the dark and stormy night in a jet... RAAF pilots can make wrong decisions too!

Why is it in Qantas now everyone is either ex-Ansett, ex-GA, ex-cadet, or ex-RAAF. When will we stop judging each other on our backgrounds and stereotypes, and rather on what individual capability is actually demonstrated?!?

Lancer

[Keg]

I should hand in my wings and ID. Despite my six and a bit years as an F/O on the 767 I can't gain any experience because I haven't 'done' GA and therefore are incapable of learning or ever being suitable for command. Once you're in QF, you can't get any more experience.

Good grief, do you blokes honestly believe your own rhetoric? Heads up folks, AO has a Captain from the early '90s cadetships. We have former cadets driving B744s, B747s, A330s, B767s, B737s as both Captains and F/Os- some of them didn't have more than 20 hours multi command before checking out in command with QF! :eek: :rolleyes: Heaven forbid but I've flown with former cadets so there have been TWO cadets on the bridge. (Careful now, the sky may fall!) Once I flew with a Level IV graduate from about '89 and a cadet from about '98 so there were THREE of us doing the driving. Batten down the hatches, the sky really is falling.

I passed the check to line, I continue to pass my sim sessions (one of which was with a former cadet as the Senior check!). It isn't a walk in the park and there are no favours done for anyone. You either make the grade or you don't. I guess that sums it all up and will be equally applicable for those cadets who end up with Air North. They'll either make the grade or they won't!

About time we lost the chip on both shoulders and treated the bloke in the other seat as a crew member rather then what they may or may not have been in a previous life.

[SQ Fugitive #2]

Mr Hat has expressed exactly what my thaughts are.

The major diff between cadets and GA when it comes to recruitment is that one has already proved his desire for the job and the other has proved his desire to pay for the job.

That said, I feel that once within the airline environment skills honed during GA tend to diminish in importance and flight deck management takes on a more important role.

Whilst basic flying skills are similar for the big jets and the little props (ie pull, push, left, right) the similarity stops there. As has been mentioned previously 98% of flying is done on auto pilot and contrloing the aircrafts flight path depends more on knowledge rather than experience. This knowledge can be learnt from GA or picked up on line. The major factor is the cadet's willingness to learn and experience with the correct attitude and not one that suggests that all the hard work has been done (or paid for) and once in the seat they can "cruise" through the rest of thier carreer.

There is nothing worse than sitting next to a guy who believes that they know most of what there is to know, regardless of whether they are a cadet or otherwise. Arrogance has no place in aviation, niether does "attitude"

Most of us who fought hard and sacrificed much could truthfully say that given the oportunity we wouldn't have jumped at the chance of being a cadet and take the easier path to the elusive airline job.

As far as Qantas is concerned they are looking to employ people who are to be future captains and the most experienced GA pilot might be very capable of shooting an NDB approach and landing in an area riddled with termite mounds or livestock. The unfortunate truth is that those skills aren't really required in the airline buisiness as there are S.O.P's that apply to most facets of the operation. What they really want is keen, capable an personable team players who have a modicom of intelligence and show sound judgement. Good people and aircraft managers.

Having said all this I to can remember thinking when I was in GA (and being more than a little p-ssed-off) that cadets were superfluous, as there was plenty of proven pilots around. However provided the individual is willing to learn and shows the correct attitude it does not matter where they come from. Qantas is mindful of experience levels and is taking steps to increase exposure to the “real-world” prior to becoming ensconced in the relatively insulated environment of airline operations for perhaps the next forty years.


“The most experienced worker does not necessarily make the most capable leader.”

;)

[Sheep Guts]

I would like to apologise for some of my past posts on this thread. In no way do I intend to demean any Cadet or scheme. I think they are great Ideas and I wish I had the opportunity but I missed when they revived the QF Cadet scheme I was to old for the 24 years cutoff, this was back in the Early Ninties.

Lancer your post is a good reply. I think alot of guys are singing their song a bit all be it they are entitled to, I really think they dont mean to outcast the Cadets or Training Schemes.


SQ Fugutive,

I agree with many points in your post. I agree the atitude of Knowall or showing arrogance with this is repulsive to me aswell. Eventually these knowall goons get bitten on their own arse by the thing they procrastinated about.

When I talk about experience. Im not concetrating on procedures or such as in Normal Ops etc etc. We all followthe SOPS and yes they are the be all and end all. But when a catasrophic uccorunce whatever it may be happens, and the SOP is followed with no real solution thinking outside the box from past exposure does count. Maybe I need to call it exposure and not experience what Im describing, I see that alot of Cadet Schemes are doing this now. Hence this thread the FO seat in an ANR Bras will give these guys and gals exposure.

Hey Im not that bright a pilot anyway, probabaly alot of Cadets would whip my ass. I know quite alot of Cadets Ansett and Qanats and they are great guys. Some of them even came out to GA to get that command time after being on SAABs and alike. Those guys I really respect, its a tuff world aviation theres no security anymore and one has to allways keep looking for oportunities. Too right Lancer lets NOT segrigate our origins we are all in the same boat or.... er plane you know what I mean.....................

:ok: :)


SHEEP

[slice]

Would I be wrong in suggesting that the antagonism towards cadets in QF really has nothing to do with their ability or experience but more to do with most of them having a relatively priviliged socio-economic background (ie the ability to have someone stump up 100K for them) ??

:hmm:

[Cap10 Caveman]

Would I be wrong in suggesting that the antagonism towards cadets in QF really has nothing to do with their ability or experience but more to do with most of them having a relatively priviliged socio-economic background (ie the ability to have someone stump up 100K for them) ??


Ever heard of a bank? :confused:

[downwind]

Guys,

The big question that I really think is the attitude of the people you fly with, ie your training captain these people can really make or brake a low hour hour fresh pilot, it's like a crappy junior grade 3 instructor who doesn't care about the student, but his selfish needs.

Everybody always talks about good GA expirience, BUT does it really make a cracker of difference in a well trained multi crew cadet program?

Guys take a good look at the old Ansett cadet scheme a proven product, more so than the qf scheme, because the AN people were already put in the rhs before being a s/o. Is it possible for people in Oz to do a rating on a heavy jet, and handle the speed and inertia of the plane? (cause it's been in Europe many a times)

Some thoughts. :ok:

[Sheep Guts]

Id rather use a Ski Mask and a Shotgun Capt Caveman than try and keep payments up on a loan for that amount of money. Something tells me you wouldnt get Housing loan rates on an Education loan.

If you have more info on cheaper rates for education loans, Im all ears? May come in handy for a Type rating !


Sheep

[Keg]

Sheep, most parents have more than $100K equity in the house. Thats one avenue. They can also guarantee a loan for the $100K. The Home loan obviously is at about 6%. The other way I've seen as low as 8%. Difference of about $2K over a year! Not a big deal really.

If you have someone to be a guarantor, most banks will fall over themselves to give you a good rate- especially if you are going to be a pilot. They see big mortgages and so on in the future. It just takes research.

A mate who did the cadetships parents certainly aren't 'wealthy'. They did have equity in the house though!

[High Altitude]

I came in a bulls roar of getting Mummy to fund my flying and/or to guarantee a loan. No it wasn't a cadetship (I coulda been so lucky). A very good instructor talked me out of it and told me to go and get a job...

Now i'm certainly not flying heavy metal, not really flying anything but I love what I do.

The frustrating thing about using mummy and daddy is that when it goes pear shapped you take them with you.

Mmm totally irrelevant to the topic but...

[GeeBeeZee]

Many Cadets have to slug out the 100k from the bank loan, so don’t just assume that its for the rich !

Secondly, a friend of mine went for an QF interview , He was 25years old, 2000+ hours, degree, all the QF minimums.

Told to come back with more world experiance. WTF ????
and 17 year old cadet has got this ?

The QF pilot recuiting people was most likely cadets to...... :P
hmmm the pot calling the kettle black here.

GeeBeeZee

[Xatrix]

I have flown with both cadets and direct entry GA guys in the other seat, and I must say MOST of the time (8/10) it is the cadet with the better and more professional attitude towards the job.

This illusion that flying single pilot GA below 10,000ft is even remotely similar to airline operations is b*ll****. Whether joining as a cadet, or out of piston operations GA, once you join the learning experience starts again from scratch.

I have found the most dangerous guys tend to be the ones from GA who think that because of their background they are a cut above the next guy who might be a cadet.

Remember the group of guys who thought it would be funny to run a competition to see who could do the least amount of work on an LA sector......



btw....Yes I joined out of GA too

[tinpis]

Remember the group of guys who thought it would be funny to run a competition to see who could do the least amount of work on an LA sector......


:} Who won?

[*Lancer*]

GeeZeeBee, if it makes you feel any better, almost all the interviewers weren't cadets, and the 'recruiting people' weren't either - including the manager.

[IORRA]

geebee, Lancer's hit the nail on the head.

As for the example of your mate - I've met 30 year olds who behave like pubescent teenagers, and similarly have met 17 year olds who were 'born middle-aged'. What of it?

2000 hours and a degree by no means on its own guarantees maturity, stability and/or the ability to interact in a multi-crew environment whilst managing aeroplane, passengers and crew. Nor does being 17 years old on its own automatically preclude the above.

Just a thought...

[Mr. Hat]

Me again!... Just wanted to also say that I hope I didn't offend anyone with my post. Just telling you guys how I've lived it from my end.

I suppose you make do with what you've got. And if you can get straight in then you bute! If not...well... you know the drill by now.

Hope this GA experience that I'm getting doesn't turn me into a crap pilot eh..!.

Beer o' clock..:rolleyes:

[blueloo]

omg - YOU BITTER TWISTED FREAKS!!! sOME OF YOU GA PEOPLE NEED TO GET OVER YOUR OWN SELF IMPORTANCE.

I was going to say something constructive, but alas, I will stick with the stupid above mentioned statement instead!





:} :} :}


BTW it does seem as though some of the biased "irrational" cadet bashers are wishing and or waiting for a cadet to bend a plane just to prove a point. Perish the thought of anyone bending a plane and turning the pax into fertiliser.

[Mr Garrison]

Geez Matt,

look at all the responses!! hehe

[Jet_A_Knight]

You are either professional about how you do your job - GA or Airline - or you are not.

[Pint o' Pale]

I wouldn't like to be one of these Air North cadets knowing all the sentiments out there.

I can imagine it now, they rock into Rourkes for a beer and have half the pub gunning for them, not to mention probably half the bar staff!! In the red corner........!!!! Doubt they'd be able to find a neutral place to drink?!:ouch:

[blueloo]

Actually I think it would put them in good sted for QF - it will help them get a thick skin for the percentage (albeit small percentage) of cadet haters, general weirdo's, and anally retentive individuals who reside in QF and unfortunately make flying what it is not meant to be.


People go on about how they deserve a job in QF over cadets because they have put in the hard yards - well in case you havent realised QF employs from 3 sources usually - GA, Air Force and Cadets. I suspect its lucky they do - can you imagine an entire Airline full of any one particular group ? Imagine an entire Airline of Air Force people, everyone would trip over the ego's. Imagine an Airline full of G/A people - you would all be whinging over who deserved what because some of you had done "harder" yards - and imagine an Airline full of cadets - well that would be just as painful to.

So i think that it is lucky QF employ from all 3 sources to create a balance.

And finally for all you Cadet haters, those who think Cadets have no experience and well, generally suck, rather than criticise them and be negative, why not be proactive and help pass on useful knowledge and tips - try to help them gain some of this experience you all seem to have in vast quantities - I am sure the majority are willing and keen to learn.

[VH-ABC]

Blueloo...

A positive post, and intelligent argument.
Please don't do it again mate, it ruins the usual flow of ****e that sometimes gets posted here.

[mole1010]

I can't believe you guys! I am a hard working GA pilot and i know cadets. they are just as hard working as any other pilot, just because they got a lucky break doesn't mean that they are pompus pricks. And to say that they just walk into the job is another stupid comment, they are put through many tests and assesments of their performance to see if they are up to the required standard, if they don't meet this standard then they are out! I think alot of the people writing on here are frustrated GA pilots who are stuck there and are jealous of cadets! and i think its pathetic!

[neville_nobody]

Mole,
I think that what gets up most guys noses is that the minimum requirements for a FO job in Airnorth are

Brasilia F/O
ATPL or subjects
2000 hours Total Time
500 hours Multi-command
Turbine Not Required
100 hours night
200 hours IFR

and the cadets are getting jobs with 200 hours TT!! Makes a joke out of the whole thing in reality. You could be the sharpest guy in the world but you are still a 200 hour pilot, who would struggle to get a gig in Darwin in the first place!

Can we have a point of view from any of the Bras Captains on this topic by any chance??? Or maybe someone in Airnorth or QF who wishes to enlighten us as to the benefits of this doing this?? I suppose QF paying $$$$$$$$$$$$$ is one answer.

Next question is why didn't they go to Sunstate or Easterns just out of curiosity??????

[ExcessData]

hi neville

Not lodging an opinion either way here, but perhaps one of the things that distinguish a GA applicant from a Qantas cadet graduate in this instance is the fact that by the end of the programme, Qantas (and by extension Air North in this case) has a VERY good idea of the standard to which the cadet graduate flies, his/her personal and behavioural qualities and attributes, multi-crew potential (they do a few weeks' LOFT as part of the course, including a test with a TFO) and ability to learn/pick up new things.

By putting them through what is essentially a three year course in just under a year, any deficiencies in the applicant are bound to surface fairly quickly, and applicants who don't quite make the grade can and will be told to rectify things (via being sent out to the general industry or otherwise) before they proceed any further with them. Assessments of each dual instructional flight are compiled and reviewed regularly by Qantas, and certainly the flight tests are about as thorough as they come. To that end, by the end of the course, the amount of data that Qantas has on the cadet pilots (and can forward to Air North) is more than enough to determine their competency, and I guess is as strong as seeing '2000 hours' on the application form of a candidate you know absolutely nothing about beyond some previous employers, a curt flying training history and a few dutifully noted 'hobbies and interests'. 2000 hours is one way of demonstrating competency, achievement and potential in flying - graduating from a closely monitored and supervised cadetship is another. I don't think anyone underestimates the commitment shown by those doing the hard yards in GA, nor does a cadetship (imho) in any way pretend to mimic that commitment.

Bear in mind that all I'm talking about here is competency to do the job to (and hopefully above) the standard required by the company. So, to answer your question, it gives Air North a source of pilots of a demonstrated standard, nothing more, nothing less.

ED :ok:

[WhiteRat Wannabe]

I thought that the reason one worked hard was so that the end of the day, with goals achieved or, you can sit back and enjoy the fruits of your hard work. Not get all bitter and twisted and feel like you are owed something.

Surely if you think a cadet has had an easy run then you would pity them because they can't reflect and have the same level of satisfaction as yourself. The journey is a BIG part.

I know a few cadets, all top blokes and i'm sure they'd have "made it" anyway. They were good mates before and still are.

Once you start comparing yourself to others you're either gonna get bitter or gloat. Its not a good idea, Why can't people just be happy with their lot?:confused:

[Willie Nelson]

If it was available (to externals when I did my training) I would have jumped at the chance. To fly jets is all I have ever wanted to do. Alas, it was not avialable then and now that I am approaching 1000 hours multi command time, even if it was available it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

My gripe is not with you cadets, however, being the well balanced people that I believe you would have been selected as, you will understand my (and many others) frustration at the lost opportunity that I have worked very hard towards for many years now, at least until I get my direct entry interview with QF.

I think it would be fair to say that some of the frustration shown on this forum from us GA guys is nothing personal, keep that in mind, and good luck with your careers. :ok:

Willie

[Hottie]

Willie and all concerned,

Though I am not a frequent visitor of pprune ( forums section moreso), I would have to agree with many of the comments, opinions and general discussions mentioned herein.

I, for one, like many other contributors to these forums, as we've seen above, am an ex-employee of Airnorth, the original commencing company in issue here, right ? :D . I was employed by them for almost 3yrs, having done the whole hard yards thing and all.. okay.. for those that may know me, I did it extremely hard. I could mention the different levels of trials I was subjected to but this is not in my nature..not in here anyway. Besides, to finally achieve my dream, I had seen and lived through many hardships - having worked for 6 other companies to get 'there'.

Alas, the experience levels and skills that I have achieved have been THROUGH MY OWN HARD WORK, SACRIFICES, DETERMINATION AND PASSION TO SUCCEED.... like everyone chasing a dream, we tend to be VERY passionate about it.. and unfortunately, because flying positions in Australia, in particular, are SO sparse and difficult to achieve, Pilots seem to feel more at ease about 'slagging' off their fellow colleagues. This is a real shame and unfortunately, something which continued even during my employment with Australia's 2 largest Regionals not too long ago.

I have many friends who are employed with Qantas, either through Direct Entry or via the Qantas Cadet Scheme and I can say that they are exemplery as both pilots and human beings - a full credit to them and a great choice of applicant by Qantas Recruiting. I do not think it is fair to say that Cadets are less qualified or worthy of a position on a Jet as compared with a pilot from GA. Truly, this is an unbalanced, unfair and unrealistic approach to something we all love doing - Flying. I can simply say 'I have done my time in GA, so I know what it's like etc etc..' but on the same token, another GA driver may say (this point was covered earlier) ' Hey mate, you reckon THAT'S bad ??? You had it easy !' ( though this was rarely the case :cool: ). My point here ? Everyone is different in their own ways - Pilots come in all forms, shapes and sizes..like anything else in life. Some are more clever than others, are multi talented musicians, artists..okay.. womanisers ( and the equivalent for our female colleagues out there.. I am certainly NOT sexist)..etc.etc... so we must all be treated and accepted for WHO we are and NOT for what our background is....

Like a friend recently asked me : ' Why are you helping _____ so much with his ___ (airline) Interview ? ' I couldn't help but feel his bitter touch to the question, but answered him in a way I believe is most appropriate ......

" One can be assisted with information pertaining to an exam, interview, assignment etc etc.. but when it comes time for that individual to present that information verbally in person, it is ALL up to them - NO MATTER how much help was given to them during tuition, if THEY alone cannot meet the standard the result is, unfortunately an unsuccessful one.."

Okay, there are those who dislike cadets for whatever personal reason, however let's try and put these feelings aside - as in any phobia, if you don't confront it and treat it accordingly, you will never recover psychologically.. Same goes with interpersonal communication and general behavioural patterns...

That's my 1,000,000,000 cents worth ) Sorry, a thesis was never intended.. Regards to all and Best Of Luck to both the Cadet body and Airnorth.

P.S. To any current Airnorth employees - is a particular individual's Logo/Emblem design still in place for Chartair ? ;)

[L8ngtkite]

Not to hijack the tread but to congratulate an old mate by the name of Tim.C who made the (right) decision to enter the QF cadetship back in '98' in lieu of the RAAF. Your dad was right!

Anyone with the chance of scoring the cadetship should take it by the scruff & not lament their lack of 'GA war-ies' or otherwise come bar time.

Your health, wealth, & happiness are far more important.

Tim, if you're out there, pm me... it'd be good to catch up for a long overdue beer.

Cheers mate :ok:

[AIRWAY]

I have achieved have been THROUGH MY OWN HARD WORK, SACRIFICES, DETERMINATION AND PASSION TO SUCCEED.... like everyone chasing a dream, we tend to be VERY passionate about it..

Hottie,

Spot on!!!!

Enjoyed reading your post :ok: True professional as always :cool:

[Cruze Power]

I would hate to think that my plumber who came to my house yesterday would HAVE to employ 28 year old, five year experienced apprentices.

These guys are developing their career in a different manner to what many may think the norm, some the only way, and because they dare to approach a problem differently, they are victimised by vexatous militant bigots.

Have respect for someone elses opinion.

How do you think that so many of the old school got to the 767/737 commands. Through joining Qantas, flying Electra's, DC3's, Connies, three holers and then to where they are today. Many were taken in as cadets, without necessarily spending years living like a dog in some wayward backblock to get some "character". Sure so many did that, but if I'll bet if they had their time over and could consider a cadetship then they may well take it.

Similar sort of people who refer to honest people with an opinion and want to challenge the "norm" as scabs.

Grow up, be good at what you do, not base your career on from whence you came but what I will achieve tomorrow.

[nzer]

Having read through 6 pages on this topic, and seeing it to be essentially an "Aussie" issue, in this forum at any rate, I hesitate to venture an opinion - but what the hell !! I am a "longish term" 25 year Airline Pilot, from a GA background, and I maintain GA interests (own plane etc). I am also in Airline Check and Training.

My two cents worth is that background/experience does not matter, and that "command time" is a meaningless measure to apply to an entry level pilot to an airline (and by "airline" I mean ops in multi-crew 10 + seat aircraft).

So long as the entrant holds - the basic requirements for the job: receives thorough and adequate initial training as part of an organised training program ; and has THE RIGHT ATTITUDE - then the skills appropriate to progression to command (NOTE - skills, not hours) will be acquired, and this can be done over a relatively short period of time - hard to put a number on this, but my subjective judgement would be 2 - 3 years. The reason it takes longer in GA (anywhere) is in part because in GA no organised development/targeted skills training takes place - it all happens by a sort of osmosis, whereas in GA in the main skills considered herein to be inherent in time on type/in a type of operation are acquired largely by "trial and error" - in fact you can extract the core elements of all those "scares" the "heroes" have had and teach people how to avoid them, rather than have each successive generation repeat the mistakes of those who wnet before - but enough from me.

[downwind]

Brasilia F/O
ATPL or subjects
2000 hours Total Time
500 hours Multi-command
Turbine Not Required
100 hours night
200 hours IFR
or be a Qantas Cadetship Scheme member
:D

http://www.airnorth.com.au/recruitment.htm

from the airnorth website!

Gentlement the acid test will be if the golden boys can tolerate the speed and inertia to get their heads around their first sizeable aircraft, time will tell, btw have any golden boys done the emb 120 rating yet?????

[nzer]

Downwind - see my previous - the "acid test" will be to see if the Air North training staff/training progranms are appropriate to the task to be undertaken - I have progressed many "light twin" pilots onto bigger/faster/higher inertia blah blah blah types** and in my experience and opinion a well designed basic type rating course (does AN use a Simulator/procedures trainer?) followed up by line consolidation by good training staff (ie, motivated and able and equipped to TEACH, not just tick boxes and tell the trainee what they are doing wrong) will see the cadet pilots operationally skillful and proficient as F/O's after about 3 months.

(** 230 ish TT onto a B767 and B737)

[Gnadenburg]

NZER

I take onboard your points but must add airlines are well aware of the vulnerability of Cadet programmes.

The main issue is a very, very basic F/O is the product of your 230ish hour training curriculum. This creates commercial problems in rapidly expanding airlines as Cadets will probably not meet Command Upgrade standards in a short timeframe ( under 5 years )- nor for that matter will basic GA.

I never understood why airlines bother with cadets in our part of the world. Put the pool of ex-military and ex-regionals through tough selection hoops and you have an airline pilot with a positive attitude and good experience to mould into the airlines pilot profile.

[Sonny Hammond]

At the end of the day some Capt has to baby sit another golden child in shiite wx.

Call it what you will but thats it in a nut shell.

Been there done that, don't have to anymore.

Mind you the wx up north aint so bad, except for the odd big chundery.

[nzer]

GNADENBURG :

I quite agree, in times of rapid expansion/promotion a "Cadet entry point" scheme will not be suitable, and an airline will need either a mix of entrants or direct entry commands on short term contracts - this is not uncommon throughout the Pac/Asia region. However, my comments were all about the pro's/cons of a "cadet entry point" v the "2000hr" entry point, and one case requires initial training, the other, in many instances, retraining, esp if the 2000hrs has been in a SPIFR operation, there is not a lot to choose one way or the other - if the need for rapid promtion was not a factor, I would tend to hire pre-screened cadets with the right attitudes.

I also agree that here in NZ at least (and despite our trans tasman spats, I think NZ and Aust aviation have a lot in common) we have an adequate pool of regional pilots and a (smaller) pool of ex military pilots from which to draw, and the additional costs associated with cadet schemes are not justified.

SONNY HAMMOND :

In my experience, any pilot placed in new environment (SPIFR B58 to two pilot T/Prop, two pilot T/Prop to jet, smaller/domestic jet to longhaul hvy jet ops, you name it) goes through a period in which he/she is "nursed" - and the Captain has an extra workload to monitoir the new pilot, regardless of # of hours, so I have to say using that particular argument against cadet entrants is a bit lame.

[Poto]

I always thought the regionals employ ex GA to the right hand seat of a turbo prop purely as a future captain. Like the Major's they interview your command potential. Surely these regionals would be disadvantaged in the long run with little or no upgradable F/O's. :confused:

[nzer]

POTO, only if the typical average time from "zero to hero" were less than 2.5-3 years. Many airliners, esp in Europe, have a PinC who has minimal (as in , the min # required to get a CPL) of the much vaunted "Command" hours. This is the general point I am trying to make - in the specific instance, ie, this "Air North" airline, of which I have no direct knowledge, these QF cadets will not be upgrading to Command in the organisation anyway, so the problem is ??? I may have it wrong, but I know of an operation that takes on CPL/I.R pilots (preselected) onto E110 and/or S340, who are eligible for Command in terms of ATPL, experience - both as TT and in the operation, after about 2 years. (Subject to passing Command upgrade trg and checks etc), and this has worked very well for the operator over the last 10 years.
However, I have stepped into a discussion which has its particular "Aussie" aviation nuances, so am only expressing my opinion on this topic in generalities - it is however a discussionthat needs to be held - eg, the revised CASA Pt 61/Training Rule envisages this sort of progression (cadet entry) becoming the norm. Cheers.

[ashyelland]

Hi to all,
Lets please not forget our fallen comrads, who have been forced by this industry and its "Minimum Multi Requirements", to fly beat up, hired, tiny single/twins single pilot, in the quest for a command/entry into a Low Cap regional and have ended up regretting it. God rest your soul MH.
Enough said?

[notrouble]

Please read, current flight safety mag.

Any monkey can learn to manipulate the controls.

How about life experience and how this translates into positive command decisions when the s*** hits the fan.

You cannot learn that much in one or two years.

Hired as a cadet July 4, 1999

A320 F/O April 20, 2000

Total time 608 hrs

[nzer]

ASHYELLAND : A little too emotive and out of context at this stage of the "thread" which has been developing quite logically of recent posts, however, consider this - IF the entry point were "cadets" - not QF cadets, but if each airline had a "cadet" scheme, whereby preselected pilots were inducted into the particular operation as F/O's, the "nights of horror" and "learning by mistakes" and the associated higher accident rates in ad hoc RPT and risk to the public would all be lessened, since the initial exposure to the "s......." of which you speak would be in a controlled environment with a "mentor" Captain - hence the cycle of history repeating itself might be broken - surely your argument cannot be "I had it hard so they have to have it hard?" That low time pilots have been put in unsafe situations with fatal outcomes is an indictment on the industry as a whole - may be this is a way forward? Anyway, I have now said all I want to on this topic - good night.

[notrouble]

Australia is blessed with a sufficient number of highly qualified pilots.

Australian operators do not need a cadet system at this time.

End of story.

[Poto]

NoTrouble, short and sweet and to the point:ok:

[bitter balance]

Why do they want cadets then notrouble? They obviously see benefits in cadet programs that you don't.

[Labia Majora]

Lets get this into perspective people.

Its like natural selection....you need a mix of people from different backgrounds..

Look what happens when you marry your cousin and have kids...
:8

[topman999]

Up until a few yrs ago, it was not uncommon to see guys walking into the RHS with 200-300 hrs TT on the B744 on some carriers. I have flown with some of these guys, and for the most part they are very enthusiastic and motivated and respect the great chance they have before them. They understand their role and know what is expected of them. Sure its a little deep for them, but still they do their best and get on with it under guidance and control.

[Keg]

notrouble, you make the same mistake that a lot of others do when quoting a prang statistic with a 'cadet' in one of the seats and that is forgetting that prangs happen no matter who is in the seat. Can I quote you the statistics of the prangs where there were NO cadets on board? That'd be interesting reading. Non-assertive F/Os are not a new phenomenon. KLM and a whole bunch of others know that one and they are not certainly not restricted to cadet ranks.

On the other hand, I can actually relate a story of where a cadet S/O actually SAVED the day- whilst a highly experienced Captain, former GA F/O and ex military QFI S/O did nothing or were out of the loop. This isn't the forum for it however but check my history on PPRUNE and you'll see that I don't 'spin' anything!

Whether or not there is currently a need for cadet programs in Australia doesn't stop a lot of people from having a chip on their shoulder about cadets in general. :(

[notrouble]

I,ll state the same thing again Keg

Australia has a sufficient number of highly qualified pilots, there is no need for a cadet scheme at this time.

And by the way, I don't hate cadets.

If you have any inside information into why Qantas employs cadets then please enlighten me.

[Keg]

I'm not arguing that point about whether Australia should run cadetships at all NT, I'm discussing the use of your example of the Gulf Air A320 to generally denegrate cadet pilots.


Please read, current flight safety mag.

Any monkey can learn to manipulate the controls.

How about life experience and how this translates into positive command decisions when the s*** hits the fan.

You cannot learn that much in one or two years.

Hired as a cadet July 4, 1999

A320 F/O April 20, 2000

Total time 608 hrs



You use this as an example of how poor cadets are. You imply that cadets can't handle it when the going gets tough. As a former cadet from the early '90s (when QF claimed that they weren't happy with the numbers and quality of those out of GA in the pilot shortage leading up to 1989 and the domestic pilots dispute) I take offence at the implied generalisation that former cadets are not up to speed. As I mentioned in my earlier posts, non assertive crew are NOT restricted to just cadets.

You'll note that I haven't commented otherwise on the relative merits of cadet ships in the current environment. I have no opinion on the matter. I won't let people make crass generalisations about those who graduate those programs- whether the program was needed or not. :D

[daytrader]

Methinks they do protest too much...

[notrouble]

Hey Keg

If you have a F/O up front with less than a year in aviation you have a single pilot operation.

Think about it.

[DOK001]

Being relatively new to the aviation business I don't have a lot of authority on this subject, but:

It has always been my understanding that Qantas views cadets as INVESTMENTS.

And to date those investments have been very worth while. (Current QF Chief Pilot, for example???)

So for notrouble and others who state that there is no need for a cadet scheme, it would seem that the powers at be believe otherwise. And they know. I don't believe anyone here is stupid enough to not understand why the cadet scheme exists- they're just too biast by their own sentiments.


I'm glad to see Keg and a few others presenting a balanced, logical argument rather than listing their gripes.:ok:

Also, it would see that 'multi- disciplinary / experienced' crews are an invaluable part of the airline and safety culture.

[nzer]

Notrouble - sorry, but I have to enter the discussion again - I would turn your quote around and say - "If in the cockpit you have a qualified pilot (CPL + I/R + Type Rated who has completed Line Training and the "Check to Line") then you have in the cockpit a valuable crew member/resource. It is about proficiencies, not years or hours. The current the CASA "2 class" system of ratings for Capt and F/O's doesn't help promote acceptance of this view.

[notrouble]

Hey Nzer

The F/O may be proficient, this doesn't mean he or she is experienced though.

As an example, you have two proficient well trained pilots, ones been flying for one year, the other ten years. Who do you trust the most.

The one with more experience would be my guess.

How about you NZER, are you a better pilot now than when you started?

I'll reiterate what I said at the start, there are an adequate number of highly trained and experienced pilots in AUSTRALIA.

We do not need cadets.

[DOK001]

Then why are they there?

[nzer]

No trouble, you said "Ifyou have a F/O up front with less than a year in aviation you have a single pilot operation." Now you are admitting that that pilot may well be "proficient", but lacking in "experience".
That is without dispute. So as I understand it you accept that a well trained CM possessing requisite proficiency, is a benefit on any Flight Deck.
The issue of experience is another one entirely - as is whether or not Australia (or NZ) needs cadet pilots - and not relevant in the position I have taken on this topic.
Am I a "better" pilot now than when I began as a CPL (yes, the good old "hard" way) in 1975? - yes, I am more practised at my particular type of flying, and my experience in my particular operating environment facilitates my performance. However if I were to change types of flying/environments, that experience would not be a lot of good to me - (if, eg, I went Ag flying). So "experie3nce" per se isn't a lot of help i don't think - I have already made the point that 200hrs SPIFR in a BE58 is not a lot of help transitioning to a multi-crew T/prop, and so on.
However it looks as though this is a courteous "agree to disagree" topic.

[kellykelpie]

DOK001 are you a cadet?