Australian Navy Seasprites

[rogerthatone]

Kaman SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite for Australia Begins Initial Flight Testing
January 6, 2000 12:13 PM EST


BLOOMFIELD, Conn., Jan. 6 /PRNewswire/ -- (Nasdaq: KAMNA) The production prototype SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite helicopter for the Royal Australian Navy has begun initial flight tests at Kaman Aerospace Corp's. headquarters here.

http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20000106/NYTH091-a

http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20000106/NYTH091-b

The aircraft is the first of 11 multi-mission SH-2G(A) aircraft being built for the Royal Australian Navy. Kaman Chief Test Pilot George Haliscak said, "The initial test objective is to test the dynamic components and instrumentation to make sure everything is working properly. The flights have gone very well so far and the aircraft has performed as expected."

Haliscak said flight testing will continue with a progressive buildup of the flight envelope and a staged expansion of the avionics capability. "We are taking a phased approach to incorporating the avionics complement which puts safety first and allows pilots and engineers to comparatively evaluate new systems as they come on line," he said.

When delivered early in 2001, the SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite will be the most advanced intermediate maritime helicopter available. "This aircraft employs avionics, sensors, weapons and mission systems that are comparable to those found on the most advanced rotorcraft flying today," said Frank Widmann, Kaman's vice president for program management.

Integrated Tactical Avionics System
It will include an Integrated Tactical Avionics System (ITAS) being developed by Litton Guidance and Control Systems. The system will contain four active matrix liquid crystal color multi-function displays, two smart data entry units with liquid crystal color displays, and two redundant mission data processors. Hands on collective and cyclic stick controls and a multi- slew controller are interfaced with ITAS to provide a robust human-machine interface. The high level of automation provided by the onboard computer systems and advanced avionics will allow a two-person crew to successfully perform the missions of the SH-2G(A) during day, night and adverse weather conditions and provide effective sea control over a large area.

Haliscak said the prototype aircraft currently has two of the four display screens installed alongside standard cockpit instrumentation to allow comparative digital and analog information to be evaluated. Full installation of the ITAS hardware will occur in the first quarter of 2000, and software integration and test will continue throughout the year.

Advanced Composite Main Rotor
The Australian SH-2G(A) will also be equipped with advanced technology Composite Main Rotor Blades. The new composite blade is designed for longer life and greater damage tolerance. It also provides a significant performance increase that translates into increased payload, extended range and greater time on station.

Automatic Flight Control System
The aircraft features a digital Automatic Flight Control System (AFCS) which provides it the capability to fly through an automatic approach to a ship or airfield and to conduct automatic flight patterns such as for search-and-rescue. It also maintains set heading, altitude, and airspeed for point-to-point navigation, and includes an automatic hover hold capability. The AFCS is integrated with two redundant Litton LN100 embedded GPS inertial systems, which provide a highly accurate and reliable navigation solution.

The Australian Super Seasprite will operate from the Royal Australian Navy's eight ANZAC-class frigates and has the capability to also operate from other frigates and air-capable support ships. The SH-2G(A)'s primary role is to function as a force multiplier and increase a ship's effectiveness by significantly expanding surveillance capability, providing over-the-horizon warning, targeting and engagement of potential threats, and contributing to the ship's combat capabilities.

In addition, the aircraft will be capable of conducting anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare, search-and-rescue missions, medical evacuations and utility roles. Key systems included in the SH-2G(A) are the Telephonics APS 143B(V)3 radar with ISAR capability, the Raytheon AAQ-27 (3FOV) FLIR, the Elisra AES-210 Electronics Support Measure suite, and a Link 11 system being developed by Litton. Weapons include the Kongsberg Penguin missile and the Raytheon MK-46 torpedo.

Kaman Aerospace Corp. is a subsidiary of Kaman Corp. of Bloomfield, Conn. In addition to the SH-2G Super Seasprite, Kaman manufactures the K-MAX(R) external lift helicopter, is a major subcontractor for commercial and military aircraft, and a leader in electro-optics and other advanced technology products. SOURCE Kaman Aerospace Corp.

[Bzulu]

October 18, 2003

THE navy today accepted the first of 11 Seasprite helicopters for use aboard the Anzac frigates.

But it will be more than a year before they are able to use their full range of weapons and sensors.

Defence Minister Robert Hill and navy chief Vice Admiral Chris Ritchie today welcomed the handover, conducted at HMAS Albatross, Nowra, on the NSW south coast, where the navy's 805 Squadron and the Seasprites will be based.

Senator Hill said the new helicopters would be the primary anti-surface weapons systems for the navy's eight Anzac frigates with six aircraft deployed at sea at any time.

"The helicopters will be equipped with a sophisticated suite of sensors and weapons including the capability to fire the Penguin anti-ship missile and to deliver the Mark 46 anti-submarine torpedo, making ir arguably the most advanced maritime helicopter in the world," he said.

Senator Hill said the handover of the helicopters would mean the navy could now start training in advance of delivery of the full weapons system capability from the end of next year.

It's excepted they will enter service from mid-2005.

The Seasprites, ordered from US company Kaman in 1997, have had a difficult birth with delivery delayed because of problems in developing the advanced computer software to operate the weapons system.

There was also controversy when it emerged the navy was buying refurbished airframes with some actually built in the mid-1960s.

Seasprite project director Captain Mark Campbell said they were effectively new-built helicopters and were fully certified for 10,000 hours flying.

"This will be a tremendous capability for the navy and ADF," he said.

"It is going to be able to perform surveillance of an enormous area of ocean. They will be capable of finding out where everyone is around the frigates at long ranges and be able to engage them if need be.

"They it will be capable of deploying various weapons including machine guns, depth charges and torpedoes. We are pretty happy with the capability that will be here by the end of next year."

Meanwhile, development work is still to be done on the software package by Kaman and Northrop-Grumman in the US and computer company CSC in Sydney and Adelaide.

Captain Campbell said the software was always regarded as the high risk area of the program.

"We are moving ahead well now and I am quite confident of getting a good program at the end of next year. There are a lot of good talented people working on it," he said.

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7595930%255E1702,00.html

[10and6]

Hmmmm......Would it have been better to buy more Seahawks?(commonality with RAN/Aust Army etc, worldwide future support and upgrades, Software would have been already developed etc).

I guess the Seahawk was too big for the OPV/JPV thingy that never happened with Malaysia!

I believe the US Navy recently decommisioned their last Seasprite Squadron.

[Straight Up Again]

The RAN Seahawks are being upgraded to give them the same FLIR, ESM, RWR and MAWS as the Seasprite for commonality. (Tenix Defence (http://www.tenix.com/Main.asp?ID=448&ListID=11) )

The only good thing about the seasprite being this late is that it makes the Seahawk upgrade project look good! (though has caused some problems due to Seasprite supposedly proving loads of system requirements first, but is now behind the Seahawk).

The main thing people keep going on about over here is the age of the airframes (7 built between '63 and '65, 4 between '85 and '86. 8 spent time shrink wrapped in a bone yard).

I've seen them around Nowra, but never close up, and I have to say they are bl00dy ugly, they make the upgraded Seahawk (with bolted on bits) look good.

I think they are way ahead of the Seahawk in terms of systems, the pictures I've seen show a nice looking glass cockpit. Shame they can't get them to work properly.

[Jackonicko]

Should have bought Lynx 300.........

[Straight Up Again]

Yeah, I was voting for Lynx 300, but that's just 'cos I was at Wastelands at the time.

Why did they go for Super Seasprite? Was it purely that it was cheaper, or more work kept in the country or something?

Lynx is certainly a lot better looking (well, except for the upturned FLIR turret on the nose).

[Jackonicko]

Reasons for SH-2 selection:
Much (!) cheaper initial purchase price
Better commonality with S70 and scope for further commonality through S70 upgrade
Potential commonality with AIR 6000 winner (S70! or further Kaman variant offered)
Perceived inability of Lynx to carry Penguin
Distrust of UK Plc after Hawk problems
Inadequate weighting given to in-service, support and operating costs

As far as I understand it.....

[12 PSI]

I think the way the Sea King LOTE program panned out had something to do with Sprite over Super Lynx

[Heliport]

ABC Regional report The Navy's new Seasprite helicopter arrives in Nowra

It may be three years late but the first of the Navy's new Super Seasprite helicopters has been accepted by the Royal Australian Navy at HMAS Albatross in Nowra, on the NSW South Coast.

http://www.rotorhub.com/news/0310/australia1.jpg

Federal Minister for Defence, Robert Hill says the Seasprite is the most advanced maritime helicopter in the world, boasting sophisticated anti-ship weapons and the delay was caused by the installation of this state of the art technology.

The first of 11 helicopters to eventually be housed at the base, the Seasprite will become fully operational in 2005 and will provide the primary anti-surface weapon system for the ANZAC class frigates.

The helicopters have attracted some criticism from the Federal Opposition who say the refurbished aircraft frames are over 40 years old and Shadow Defence Minister Chris Evans says Senator Hill has exposed tax payers to the risk of accepting helicopters that have not met clear tender requirements.

But Senator Robert Hill says they can still do the job.

"They've been certified for 40 thousand hours, 25 years of operation, they are in effect brand new. You've only got to look at the aircraft or talk to the pilots. You know, there's no question about that at all."

Liberal member for Gilmore, Joanna Gash says the Seasprite Helicopter will bring enormous benefit to the Shoalhaven economy, in the range of 10 million dollars a year.

She says the squadron will bring an additional 110 people to the base plus their families "And also of course the contractors on the base who will be working on the helicopters outside of the base."

Minister for defence, Robert Hill says he can't comment on any plans to expand HMAS Albatross near Nowra to increase both army and air force components effectively making it a super base.

[Bzulu]

Defence
MEDIA RELEASE


05/11/2003 Departmental 321/03



NAVY’S NEWEST HELICOPTER ARRIVES ON DECK


The Defence Materiel Organisation and the Royal Australian Navy today achieved a significant milestone in the Super Seasprite project, with the maritime helicopter successfully making its first ever landing on the deck of an Australian warship.


The Super Seasprite landed onboard the ANZAC class frigate HMAS WARRAMUNGA at Garden Island in Sydney this morning to commence shipboard trials which include landing, lash-down and stowage procedures onboard the ANZAC class warships.


This was a long-anticipated event in the $1,014.6 million project and was an important step forward.


Defence provisionally accepted the first of the 11 Super Seasprite helicopters for testing, evaluation and training at HMAS ALBATROSS in Nowra on the 18th October.


The trials will help ensure that the final product meets the Navy’s requirements making the Super Seasprite one of the most advanced maritime helicopters in the world.


Once accepted into service and fully equipped, the Super Seasprite will provide the primary anti-surface weapon system for Australia’s fleet of eight ANZAC class frigates.


The helicopters will be equipped with a sophisticated suite of sensors and weapons, including the capability to fire the ‘Penguin’ anti-ship missile and to deliver the Mk 46 anti-submarine warfare torpedo.


The Super Seasprite from 805 ‘Checkmates’ Squadron, based at HMAS ALBATROSS, has a crew of two for the trials. The helicopter is expected to return to Nowra on Friday.


805 Squadron currently has a complement of 64 personnel and more personnel will arrive early in the New Year for training.

http://www.defence.gov.au/

[citizen]

I've heard (from the horse's mouth) that the airframe is definitely not an issue, all the airframes have been totally overhauled and there is little metal left that actually came from the old sprites. They have been zero lifed for a guaranteed 10000 hour lifespan.

That said, the few guys from 816 I have spoken to aren't particularly keen on the Seasprite, despite its capability. More Seahawks would have actually been cheaper by avoiding the cost of integrating a totally new helicopter into the works.

The reasoning behind the Seasprite was that the Navy was looking for a small ASuW helo they could fit onto their new fast attack ships they never got (+ more to go onto the ANZACs). When that idea fell through the Navy was already comitted to finishing off their investment with the Seasprite.

However, having looked over the airframe recently it is very hard to not come away with a sh*t-eating grin plastered on your face. The cockpit is something else, four colour LCDs combining all the systems onboard - and there are a sh*tload of them! The only analogue instrument I could find was the standby AI and that was it.

Cheers

[Straight Up Again]

The 816 guys might not to be keen on it, but what about the guys from the Seasprite squadron (805 I believe)?

I've seen pictures of the cockpit, and it does look very pretty, it's just a shame that some of the software doesn't work properly. The best way to damage a sub with one is to crash into it, at least until they fix all the software.

[citizen]

A *few* might not be keen, I'm not speaking for anyone, but overall everyone is fairly happy with the capabilities, or future capabilities, of the airframe. It just seems Navy, as it usually does, took the unorthodox way to provide an airbourne ASuW capability.

[Straight Up Again]

It seems that the Seasprites are coming under fire again (though not literally, they couldn't shoot back) ...
Seasprite a waste of money? (http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/index.php3?daysum=2004-04-28#)
Then select the "Seasprite - The Billion Dollar Blunder" story.

I've heard most of it before, I'm just wondering what people think is going to happen, I can't see any politicians getting sacked over it.

(I wasn't sure wether to put this in Military, Rotorheads or Dununda forums, so I don't mind if it gets moved)

[LLSRC]

Rumours a plenty about RAN Sqn's grinding to a halt due ongoing aircraft/ project issues. Seasprite has been lying low lately though I have heard the aircraft is still a lemon of gigantic proportions. Anyone in the know care to elaborate?

[eagle 86]

Put them in a pile and burn them - use the fire to burn at the stake all the Admirals and Public Servants who went against advice not to procure them!
GAGS
E86

[Squidly]

Why should we burn them? FOr those O/S or who have yet to read The Australian today ....

Grounded helicopters facing axe
Patrick Walters
May 15, 2006
THE navy's trouble-plagued Super Seasprite helicopter fleet has been grounded and the $1 billion program is at risk of being scrapped amid concerns the aircraft is unsafe to fly.
Nearly six years after they were due to enter service, the Seasprites -- a vital anti-submarine and anti-shipping aircraft for the Navy's Anzac-class frigates -- have been banned indefinitely from operational flying.

Defence Minister Brendan Nelson has ordered a review of the project, with options ranging from scrapping the Seasprite and buying an alternative helicopter to persisting with its development.

Dr Nelson told The Australian last night that it was time to look at what was involved in "getting out of the program".

Navy chief Vice-Admiral Russ Shalders and air force chief Air Marshal Geoff Shepherd flew to the navy's aviation base at Nowra, on the NSW south coast, on Friday as part of a high-level review of the program due to be presented to Dr Nelson this week.

They were accompanied by the Defence Department's chief of capability development, Lieutenant General David Hurley, and the head of the Defence Materiel Organisation, Stephen Gumley.

Dr Nelson said that after receiving the report he would take a recommendation on the Seasprite's future to cabinet's national security committee.

If the aircraft was scrapped as a ship-borne war-fighting machine, the Government could turn to the US Seahawk helicopter or the European NH-90, at a replacement cost of more than $1 billion.

Dr Nelson told The Australian last night that software problems associated with the Seasprite's electronic equipment had affected flight safety.

"You could not have 100 per cent confidence in the software program that supports the pilot flying the helicopter to 100 per cent safety," he said. "It has required the chief of naval aviation to have it grounded."

Dr Nelson said it was unlikely the aircraft would resume flying, other than for test-pilot evaluations, before the end of the year.

Defence has estimated it would cost a further $100million to $200 million and take another two years to make the planned 11-strong fleet operational and fully equipped for maritime warfare.

Ten of the contracted aircraft have been delivered to the navy's HMAS Albatross base at Nowra but none has been accepted into full operational service. A senior Defence source said last night that the cheapest solution was to finish the Seasprite program.

"The choice is between spending an extra $100 million to $150 million or paying up to $1.5 billion for a new capability which won't be delivered for three or four years," the source said. About $950 million has been spent on the project so far.

Nearly a decade after the contract was signed with US firm Kaman Aerospace, in 1997, the Seasprite project has been dogged by software problems and the failure of earlier sub-contractors to provide the aircraft's sophisticated avionics package.

Dr Nelson said he believed problems with the Seasprite were having a "significant and detrimental effect" on morale at Nowra, particularly in the wake of the 2004 Sea King crash, which killed nine military personnel and led to the temporary grounding of the Sea King fleet.

The Seasprites are regarded as the most troublesome of Defence's so-called "legacy projects", which started before the Howard Government took office and have run years late and failed to meet original specifications.

The grounding of the Seasprites is a particular blow for the navy's 805 squadron, which has been working to train aircrew and ready the aircraft for service on the Anzac frigates. Defence sources say the squadron will now almost certainly have to be downsized.
:eek:

[eagle 86]

Squidly,
The news was what prompted me to start the post - burning represents a way to permanently dispose of them so there is no possible avenue for resurrection!
GAGS
E86

[R22DRIVER]

Anybody got a picture of one of these Seasprites?

[Squidly]

Eagle86 - Understood. Just thought I'd paste in the article to put your comments in context for those who had not heard the latest in the Seasprite saga.:}
R22 - Here's a link to a photo of the erstwhile SH-2G(A):

http://www.navy.gov.au/gallery/?c=1&id=29

[imabell]

a lot has been said about the age of the sea king fleet. 35.

these sea sprites are made from 40+ year old airframes and are now and always have been pieces of crap.

the australian taxpayer handed over more than a billion dollars to its greatest ally for 10 aircraft, can you believe it. our military is the laughing stock of the world. a disgrace.

to add to all of this is the problems with the tiger that are also becoming an embarrassment as we fall well behind schedule on delivery. they don't work very well either.:yuk: :yuk: :ugh: :yuk:

[MPT]

G'day imabell,

That'll be $1b for 11 aircraft !!! That'd buy a lot of (any) civil aircraft. I can never see the value(??) in what we pay for military helicopters.

Cheers,

MPT

[R22DRIVER]

Sorry guys but that is one ugly heli! And i fly the ugliest!!!:ouch:

[Squidly]

Imabell said "... sea sprites are made from 40+ year old airframes and are now and always have been pieces of crap"

40 years old, in USN service for over 35 of them and active in Vietnam (as a single-engine SAR bird) and every stoush the U.S. has been involved in since.

Interestingly the UH-2A was the mount of the first naval aviator to be awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour in Vietnam (LT Clyde Everett Lassen - Google the name, makes for interesting reading).

The USN didn't seem to think they were crap (in their time). Obviously you had less fortune when you flew the H-2, to have come away with such feelings. How about sharing your experiences?:E

Squidly.

p.s. This post in no way endorses the performance, or otherwise, of the SH-2G(A) That's (A) for Australia.

[maxeemum]

Spare a thought for the boys in the RAN at the moment. Shark 02, Sea sprite, problems with OFT's. It would be an interseting place to be a "birdy" at the moment.

Max


:ugh:

[Screwed™]

our military is the laughing stock of the world.
...again. :(

[imabell]

your right squidly, i was a bit over the top there. i am sure they served the usn well.

why do we need them?, we have nothing to protect, no aircraft carriers, no battleships, no cruisers. just a few destroyers and a couple of other boats. not much in the scheme of things. just toys for the boys to play with. and they are already broken.

now the tigers we are getting are suffering from major operational problems like, "it wont start sir", "the tv's not working sir",
the first one we had (demonstrator) was written off during a demonstration, because it wouldn't do what the pilot asked it to. they are months behind delivery at a million dollars a week i am told.

and what are we going to do with them if they ever do work properly???:D :D :ugh: :ugh:

[bellfest]

At least in Australia when they make a huge ^%$#up like this you know it is just because they are incompetent, not because George Bush's or Dick Cheneys' second cousin's company makes the after market torpedo pods that fit the machine.
Why the ^%$# is our planet so intent on spending so much money on **** to kill people? If the money were spent on poverty there would be no need for a "defence" force.:confused:
I am not sure why I bothered throwing that in, I would say that there is more chance of Muhamid Ali shoving a pound of butter up a wild cats ass with a red hot skewer then that ever happening. Can only hope.
"Seasprite" It even sounds like a lemon.:8

[Squidly]

Imabell - no probs. I tell myself at least a million times a day not to go over the top (and still do).:)

As to "Why do we need them?" that's a question I would hope gets a really good airing - before we spend/spent 1 billion dollars. All I do know is, they obviously didn't ask you, me or bellfast.

Regardless of the saga behind the Seasprite (and Tiger for that matter), I'm very much with Maxeemum - You've got to wonder how our fellow aviators at Nowra are feeling at the moment and sympathise with them - They've had a crap year (or 2, 3, .....):(

Squidly.

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

Good call

"Sea-Sprite", like regular sprite but now with a dash of Lemon.

(Hey over in NZ they can only dream of having a budget big enough for Tigers, RNZAF still flying the Bell 47)

Everyone wondered why it seemed to be only Egypt and other easily bribed countries that had bought the Seasprites..
Just buy what the States operates at least it wil have proven itself somewhere.

[22clipper]

Its a bid of a sad tale of an overly ambitious 'wish list' it would seem. The new Zealanders are using off-the-shelf sprites no probs, the trouble with ours is the one off, all singing all dancing avionics they tried to shoe horn into the machines.

[grenade]

Got to love those side doors. Ive always wanted a bedford van like the posties used to have. Lets strip em out and go mustering.

[Ian Corrigible]

I hesitate to come to the Tiger's defense, but I thought the Townsville crash in '98 (an EC-owned machine, not an ADF bird) was attributed to the pilot losing situational awareness at night ? That aside, the ADF found itself trapped in the position of being the first user of the Tiger when the French and German programs were delayed - keep in mind that, at the time the ADF selected the type in August 2001, initial deliveries to the ALAT were still planned for mid-2003, 18 months before the ADF was due to receive its first aircraft.

The power issue was always a clear & present danger, since the Tiger was designed for combat over the Fulda gap, not in 95F temps, and one surely has to believe that the ARH was always eventually intended to use the same upgraded engine being developed for the Spanish HAD variant once it became available (~2008) ?

As for the SH-2A(G) itself, much has been written over the past 9 years, but the original premise of the program (a compact shipboard helo) was lost when the proposed OPV replacement for the Freemantle class was scrapped in 1997 shortly after the selection of the Seasprite itself. Litton's withdrawal, the subsequent scramble to recover the mission suite, obsolescence issues resulting from the associated delays and the fact that 7 of the 11 aircraft were built in 1965-67 simply added to the program's woes.

Of course, Kaman's bid was originally A$200M lower than WHL's new-build Lynx offering, but I suspect that difference has already been eaten-up by the various players (mainly Kaman's shareholders).

The SH-2A(G) also never really fit with the 'consolidation' rationale of Air9000. Let's just hope MRH-90 lives up to expectations.

I/C

[Screwed™]

ADF Chief's:
"..yes, it's very nice, but we want half of that one, and half of that one. Just bolt them togther"
"..errr, you can't do that sir"
"..sure you can, she'll be right"
"Right then, what's for lunch?"
It's the same conversation over, and over and over and......:ugh:

[gadgetguru]

I'm sure the NZ-DF ? is watching closely to pickup another bargain from the incompetant Oz mil hierarchy.

odds on they'll buy them off us for less than half what we paid,
get them working properly on a shoe-string budget (they'll have plenty from the savings in original procurement), then flog them back to us at 3 or 4 times the rate....:bored:

de ja vu the CT4 & A-4s
something about being promoted to your highest level of incompetantcy...;)

[Squidly]

Notwithstanding how the Aussie Seasprite got this far, what's the call then:

1. Burn and bury 'em; or

2. Spend another squillion to see what they can really do?

[helmet fire]

Burn them.
Sell tickets to burning.
Use ticket funds to buy the Huey Gunship recently retired from Army to do the job.
Spend squillions on piss for gunship pilots/gunners.
Everyone wins. Morale problem gone......:ok:

[eagle 86]

Helmet Fire,
You, your mates nor your Huey could hack operations off a small ship out of sight of land!
GAGS
E86

[Ascend Charlie]

Eagle 86, the small ship you operated off was our top War Canoe, HMAS Melbourne, wasn't it? Small by anybody's standards, and barely capable of getting out of sight of land.

Anyway, couldn't we get Macquarie Bank to run the defence forces?

They could buy all those 40-year old F-111s sitting in the Arizona desert, slap a coat of paint on them and sell them to Oz, claiming a $400 million spotter's fee. Then they cancel the F-35 order, pay the cancellation fee, and claim a management fee of $400 million. When Boeing Defence announces bankruptcy over the lost orders, buy them up at a bargain price, reinstate the F35 order, share price goes up again, sell at the peak and cancel the order again. Claim another big fee, pay the managers a bonus.

Sell the RAAF, navy and army bases for real estate. Any RAAF staff still staying in can move to what's left of Bankstown and use their flying pay to pay for some flying in R22s or C152s to keep current. Army HQ can be moved to a really secure top-secret bomb-proof location in the under-utilised Cross-City Tunnel, charge each person $3.37 to get through the toll gates to get to work. MacBank buys the Snowy River scheme and Warragamba Dam with the proceeds, sell the Warragamba sludge water to the Snowy scheme, boosting its share value. Sell at the peak, just before the water runs out. Buy again when the price bottoms out. Give all MacBank directors a performance bonus. Empty dams and dry rivers declared surplus to requirements, sell to Chinese interests for storage of nuclear waste. Another round of bonuses, please...:yuk:

[helmet fire]

Fair cop e86.
There is only one reason you would want to be on a small boat out of sight of land and surrounded by men with beards......:8

AC...you were not in defence procurement by chance were you...sounds like a project blue print!!

[eagle 86]

HF,
Don't knock something you haven't tried - besides it was legal outside the 12 mile limit!
AC,
Haven't heard from you for a while - thought they must have done away with your airwing!
GAGS
E86

[Ascend Charlie]

Yeah, E86, still got a job!

Defence procurement has stood on their d1cks before this when buying helicopters.

1960s, buying Iroquois from the US. Machine comes fitted with ADF and Tacan. Oz intellectuals decide that because Oz is so big and there were only 8 Tacan stations in the whole country at the time, that the choppers wouldn't be able to use it anyway, being out of range. So, having already paid for the Tacan set, they then paid more to have them taken out. Oops, a cg problem arising. No worries, just bolt a slab of lead in the battery bay to make up for it. Fortunately, they left the rest of the aircraft as per the manufacturer, so it is still around today.

1970s, buying the Chinooks. Early teething problems with engines meant that engineless hulls were scattered around Amberley, making the place look like a caravan park. Sell the 12 C models, buy 6 D models, halving the operational capacity. Doesn't save money, though, because the Ds were more than twice the cost of the Cs.

1970s/1980s, looking for a training helo replacement for the grounded B model Hueys. Decide on the AS350 Squirrel, but insist on getting a throttle twist grip - unique in the world. Pay buckets to get it invented and certified, pay more for the fixes needed when the system kept fouling up.

1980s, buying Blackhawks. Remembering that Oz is a big country, insist on getting the wings with fuel tanks. Use them almost continuously, then notice the cracks in the wings. Contact the makers - "Oh, they are just for transit flights, not for continuous use." Or words to that effect.

It is hard to think of a project that hasn't been fouled up by putting unique requirements on Oz aircraft instead of buying it off the shelf, or by not allowing for the extreme climatic environment. Maybe the Caribou was one project we didn't interfere with too much, and it is still going strong.

[imabell]

ascend charlie,

i am glad they got the bugs out of the squirell throttle as i got to fly a couple of machines with it and it had some good points.

those machines were a steal when they went on the public market. the taxpayer took a bath when the government got rid of them.:=

[sprocket]

Clarke, Dawe and defence

Reporter:

KERRY O'BRIEN: Time now for John Clarke and Bryan Dawe on a day in the life of a defence minister.

(John Clarke plays Brendan Nelson and Bryan Dawe plays the interviewer)

INTERVIEWER: Brendan Nelson, thank you for your time.

BRENDAN NELSON: Good evening, Bryan. A great pleasure to be with you.

INTERVIEWER: Minister, can you explain this business with the Sea sprite helicopters?

BRENDAN NELSON: Certainly I can, Bryan. Obviously you're aware of what a helicopter is?

INTERVIEWER: Yes, it flies vertically.

BRENDAN NELSON: Well, no, these are Sea sprites.

INTERVIEWER: It has a propeller up there?

BRENDAN NELSON: It has a propeller, Bryan, but the Sea sprites are not used for flying.

INTERVIEWER: They don't fly?

BRENDAN NELSON: Well...

INTERVIEWER: I mean, I thought a helicopter was a kind of plane?

BRENDAN NELSON: We're talking about Sea... You want to ask about helicopters, Bryan, or the ones we bought?

INTERVIEWER: The ones we bought. Didn't we buy $1 billion worth of Sea sprite helicopters?

BRENDAN NELSON: No, we didn't do that, Bryan.

INTERVIEWER: It says here we paid $1 billion, minister, for Sea sprite helicopters.

BRENDAN NELSON: Yeah, we did that. I see, Bryan, there's your mistake. You're confusing what we paid for something with its actual value.

INTERVIEWER: What are you saying - they're not worth $1 billion?

BRENDAN NELSON: Bryan, can I just point out at this point I wasn't in the job at the time the purchase went through.

INTERVIEWER: Minister, that's not the point. My question to you was, did these helicopters cost us $1 billion?

BRENDAN NELSON: Yes, they did, they did cost us $1 billion.

INTERVIEWER: Well, my next remark is, why aren't they still worth $1 billion?

BRENDAN NELSON: Well, I don't know what they're worth, Bryan. They might be worth $1 billion. Metal prices are going through the roof.

INTERVIEWER: Metal prices?

BRENDAN NELSON: Yeah, huge demand for metal out of China and India mainly, as I understand it. I don't know what they're worth - they could be worth $1 billion.

INTERVIEWER: What is the matter with the helicopters?

BRENDAN NELSON: There's nothing the matter with the helicopters at all, Bryan. I mean, provided you don't try and fly them I reckon they're probably as safe as a church.

INTERVIEWER: Are they new?

BRENDAN NELSON: No, they're not new, but it was apparently a very sound purchase, Bryan. They'd been used only for light tasks, they'd only been driven a tiny bit.

INTERVIEWER: What, to the shops or something?

BRENDAN NELSON: To the shops, on a Sunday.

INTERVIEWER: Little jobs?

BRENDAN NELSON: Light work, light work, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Where did we get them from?

BRENDAN NELSON: We bought them on eBay, Bryan.

INTERVIEWER: eBay?

BRENDAN NELSON: That's apparently where the ordinance experts are selling stuff and we were quietly confident.

INTERVIEWER: What are they for?

BRENDAN NELSON: Well, they are part of Australia's burgeoning defence capability, Bryan.

INTERVIEWER: On the ground?

BRENDAN NELSON: As it happens, they are used for patrolling the hangars they're stored in.

INTERVIEWER: They keep that hangar safe?

BRENDAN NELSON: They do. You'd have to be an absolute idiot to go in there and try and nick one of those, Bryan.

INTERVIEWER: Why is that?

BRENDAN NELSON: Well, they don't fly. Only a moron would want one, Bryan.

INTERVIEWER: So they're useless, Minister?

BRENDAN NELSON: No, no, I wouldn't say they're useless, Bryan.

INTERVIEWER: They're just not helicopters?

BRENDAN NELSON: That's right, they're just not helicopters.

INTERVIEWER: Well, we might find some other use for them, I assume?

BRENDAN NELSON: We're going to have to, Bryan, we can't put them in the air.

INTERVIEWER: Like what?

BRENDAN NELSON: I mean, let's think about this rationally. Plenty of uses I can think of. You're reading a newspaper on a very windy day for example, the pages keep blowing away.

INTERVIEWER: What, hold them down with a helicopter?

BRENDAN NELSON: Chopper them on the corner, just chopper them lightly, the page will stay where it is, you'll be able to finish the Sudoku. Plenty of tasks. I can think of lots. Have you got a boat? You'll need a mooring.

INTERVIEWER: What, a Sea sprite?

BRENDAN NELSON: Extra reliability in a Sea sprite.

INTERVIEWER: Thanks for your time.

Buy one we'll give you one free, Bryan. Call now, get yourself a Sea sprite, we've got tonnes of them.


http://http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2006/s1642114.htm

[bellsux]

I think that the twist grip throttle should have been standard right from the first AS350, you have an engine that has an emergency overide for the FCU so in the event of a governing failure you take it out of the flight detent and corellate it manually. Has to be a lot easier than swapping one hand from the collective to the throttle. The only trap with the twist grip is if the system is not rigged correctly, the pilot on the LHS can easily set the twist grip in the flight detent but the FCU goes into the low side of the manual control. That design fault and not being able to quickly remove / install the duals can only be blamed on the aeronautical engineers who were given the job of designing or approving it.

[Screwed™]

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200605/r86622_255112.asx
Video link to the above 'tongue in cheek' interview, sadly, almost accurate.

[SawThe Light]

Apart from the obvious training exercises, has anyone had, or does anyone know of a Squirrel governor failure that required the use of the apparently expensive twistgrip?

STL

[Brian Abraham]

7.30 Report also had an item a few days ago about $1billion worth of ammunition being declared "unservicable". Not much bang for the buck there then. Angus looked as though he might have been seriously considering retirement or applying for another job when being grilled about the disc in the QANTAS lounge computer. Have to feel sorry for the man. As for sprite, isnt that a drink?

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

"we bought them on ebay..." - great !

[Magoodotcom]

7.30 Report also had an item a few days ago about $1billion worth of ammunition being declared "unservicable". Not much bang for the buck there then. Angus looked as though he might have been seriously considering retirement or applying for another job when being grilled about the disc in the QANTAS lounge computer. Have to feel sorry for the man. As for sprite, isnt that a drink?

Angus has unfairly taken a bath on the Kovco issue. It's not as if the problems that happened are systemic. I have it on good authority that the repatriation did not follow standing SOPs which were bullet-proof, and someone leaving a CD in a computer, well, that's just a case of $hit happens...nothing more.

I'd love to get my hands on the w@nker who found the CD and then handed it to the human headline, Derryn Hinch! Not only did it cause grief for DEFMIN and CDF, but also for the Kovco family.

As for the Seapsprites...we should tell Kaman to get the things right or we'll ditch them, won't pay another cent, and get something else. It's not like the budget surplus can't cover it and was going to be spent on anything worthwhile anyway (man, I'm getting cynical in my old age!). Anyway, whether we have a legal case or not, it's now in Kaman's interest to get them right and, judging by their media statements in the past couple of days, they seem to think they're this [thumb and forefinger held about 2cm apart] close to it.

In the meantime, file the Seasprite debacle away in the 'what NOT to do next time' draw, and get on with life!

Magoo

[SASless]

Eagle 86,

I guess the UH-1N's the USN and USMC operate out of sight of land don't count?

Or perhaps all the 205's, 212/412's that have operated to seismic survey boats either?

[eagle 86]

SASless
Personal dig at HF - nothing more.
GAGS
E86

[Blackhawk9]

The AS350's were bought as a training helo in the early 80's to replace the UH1-B's, the AS 350 was selected to apease the french as the RAAF was about to choose the F/A 18 to replace the Mirage 111 and the Blackhawk to replace the UH1-H, with no french a/c being chosen the french said if we didn't buy something off them spares parts supply for the remaining years of the Mirage would be a problem!!!!, (sound familiar with french company's!!), so the AS350 was chosen (I was told the RAAF wanted MD500E's, training ,spec ops etc ie: Little birds). So the AS350 was modified to suit the Australian requirement, the twist grip , was designed by a RAAF Engineer to be incorperated onto the AS350 as the UH1-H was still the primary utility Helo in Australian and as it had a twistgrip as well the B206B-1 Kiowa it was easier to train a pilot to suit several types in emergency procedures , the twist grip was then patended by the french (the RAAF forgot to!!!) and was used as the throttle design in latter AS350's (if you see a twist grip from a AS350 B3 in pieces its a very close copy of the Australian designed one in the old ex RAAF machines).
The stories with ineptitude and interferiance in Australian helicopter selection criteria you could fill a book with,
eg, useless sideways facing seating in the Blackhawks, only Blackhawks in world with that seating -makes getting to injured pilots hard as pilots seats will not drop right back, guns will not swing in as they hit gunners seat, no access to cargo hook in cabin, and all this for $1 M extra per a/c for development , design and manufacture , UH60's don't have these problems, the S70A-9 was the forerunner of the UH60-L as the A-9 was the first to run the -701A engine and uprated Xmissn, all at Australias cost for the R&D.
I was on Blackhawks from day one , when we wanted to get rid of the sideways seating and replace with fore/aft UH60 seating we were told no as to much time and money had been spent on them despite the fact the sideways facing seating degrades the operational capabilities of the A/C (if you see a S70 A-9 now they run a mix of both seats but they will never get full UH60 setup. We had 5 of the first 6 a/c delivered to Amberly in the late 80's fitted with UH60 seats before being told to revert back to the inadequate side seats.)

[eagle 86]

B9,
Re the choice of AS350 to replace UH-1B - you talk crap son - myself and an Air Force Squadron Leader were hauled before a high level RAAF/RAN committee to fend off a late bid by Bell with Kiowas to replace the Huey - 500's were never in the hunt - AS 350 was a mile in front! Having done two out of three tours at 5 Sqn and ADF Helo School instructing on AS350 there is yet to be produced a better basic trainer (except for the UH1B!).
GAGS
E86

[Blackhawk9]

E86
The tale of the AS350 selection was a story I heard at 5 in the early 80's and also from guys in the fighter world at willitown.
And true the AS350 was a good trainer, if too easy to fly, when pilots going onto the Huey and Kiowa had to relearn to fly 2 bladed/underpowered machines, I always believed pilots who learned on the B model then went to H models then Blackhawks etc had much less difficulty flying and flew the aircraft better (not the auto pilot) than pilots who went from AS350 to Blackhawk then the Huey's or 206's.

[eagle 86]

B9,
Mate, not to belabour a point - but I learnt to fly on a TH13M/H34 then went on to fly:
uh1b/d/h
wessex
sk50
kiowa
as350
ww7/9
as355
sa365c/n
jet/long ranger
a119/109
Never had to really unlearn anything nor, in my experience, did any of the studs I taught to fly machines after they'd learnt on the uh1b or as350.
gags
E86

[Ascend Charlie]

Eagle 86 said "Never had to really unlearn anything nor, in my experience, did any of the studs I taught to fly machines after they'd learnt on the uh1b or as350."

Probably because of the superb training you gave us, 86.

UNLEARN training? Urban myth. You step into a different helo, and the checks for that particular type slot into their respective brain cells, and away you go. Unless you are flying 5 different types in a day, not a problem. In one day, I strap on an S76, a UH-1H, and a B47 and back into the 76 and there is never any mental conflict with types or techniques or critical speeds or such.

Only time I almost made a mistake between types was going from a Chieftain to a Baron - cockpits almost identical, but the flaps and gear levers were interposed. Went to raise the flaps of the Baron after landing, and stopped when the feel of the round wheel-thing on the lever wasn't the same as the square thing on the flap lever. But that's planky stuff...:yuk:

[helmet fire]

B9 said:I always believed pilots who learned on the B model then went to H models then Blackhawks etc had much less difficulty flying and flew the aircraft better (not the auto pilot) than pilots who went from AS350 to Blackhawk then the Huey's or 206's.
What makes you believe this thesis B9?

As for the collective mounted throttle (of which I am a big fan), it is of most benefit when there is a decent arc between idle and fully open - as per the Huey 212 and 412. Having a tiny arc such as the Aussie mil AS350, the B206 and the EC120 is good, but misses the full potential of the system by being too sensitive to easliy play with in emergency scenarios.

SASless, personal digs aside, the US forces hardly operated the UH-1 series off "small boats". A marinized, large shoal aircraft they aint.

And can you imagine trying to overcome the urges aroused by finding a small boat full of bearded rivet examiners pass through your gunsight when returning for the day?
No, E86 is right. We couldn't hack it for a day. The toss up between having to ditch at sea with no fuel versus letting such a rich and irresistable target go unmolested would send any Huey gunship crew crazy in the first week.
:8

[Cyclic Hotline]

Always remember - there is nothing safer than a parked aircraft! :8

Kaman Issues Statement Regarding Its Australian SH-2GA Helicopter Program

(Space Daily Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge)Kaman has issued a statement regarding its Australian SH-2G(A) helicopter program. Over the past several years, the company has reported extensively on its SH-2G(A) helicopter program for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN), a USD 611 million fixed-price contract for 11 aircraft featuring a new technology- advancing Integrated Tactical Avionics System (ITAS).

While the basic aircraft have been completed for several years and nine have been provisionally accepted by the Commonwealth, they have lacked the full ITAS system. The company has reported on the substantial charges it has taken to provide the funding to complete the program, and has reported its progress toward the ITAS completion in its quarterly releases and public filings.

Kaman has been working closely with the RAN and believes the program is close to completion. In May 2006, the company finished the last of approximately 400 pre-qualification software tests of the ITAS software, and is in preparation for the final qualification testing to be witnessed by the Commonwealth. This process is expected to be followed by acceptance of the fully capable helicopters.

In its press release of May 2, 2006, the company reported that the Royal Australian Navy had encountered an anomalous flight condition on one of its training aircraft that was attributed to the aircraft's airspeed sensor. This anomaly, involving a small component from a supplier, is not impacting the development process for the ITAS. The company also reported that the Australian Navy's Operations Airworthiness Authority had suspended flying operations pending resolution and that final acceptance of the aircraft would not occur until the issue had been resolved. The company believes that it has determined the cause of the anomaly and has a plan for resolution of the issue.

Paul Kuhn, Chairman, President and CEO said, "Early this week, articles appeared in the Australian media that are critical of the program. At least one article questioned the safety of the aircraft. In fact, there is a significant history of safe operations for this aircraft type with the U.S. Navy and currently with several other naval services including the Royal New Zealand Navy. We are confident that the same will be the case for the Australian aircraft, and believe that working through the remaining technical issues is the most timely and cost-effective route to fulfilling the RAN's mission requirements. We look forward to the introduction of the fully- capable SH-2G(A) helicopters into service with the Royal Australian Navy.

[Squidly]

Paul Kuhn, Chairman, President and CEO said, "... In fact, there is a significant history of safe operations for this aircraft type with the U.S. Navy and currently with several other naval services including the Royal New Zealand Navy."

Now that's just plain naughty. The USN, RNZN (and Egyptian & Polish) SH-2s are distinctly different machines to the SH-2G(A). :=

Among other things, the SH-2G(A) has a digital flight stabalisation system where all the others were analogue ie. software has a significantly greater flight critical role.

Happy with drawing the 'rich heritage' bow, provided significant differences are given their due weight.

[pomonaman43]

1964 purchase UH-1B Up to date avonics replaced by world war 2 radios.WHY?

1969/70 Wessex 31A upgraded to 31B.A Royal Navy based unit was fitted with USN based Sonar plus HUDAT. NO AVONICS UP GRADE.Did it work to the required standard .NO. WHY?

1973/75 Wessex to be replaced by the Seaking.A model was specially developed for the RAN. Used no where else in the world.WHY?

1973/74 Kiowa introduced into service for survey ship Moresby.Avonics modified as a retrograde step.WHY?

These are a few examples of the public service Dept. of Defence planning. Generally overriding the uniform serviceman that still is a major problem today as seen by the Seasprite $1 billion mess.

Why should the serviceman and taxpayer be made to pay for this waste.Sack the public servants and replace them with people ability, practicable experience and a desire to help the country and Services.

POMONAMAN43

[Brian Abraham]

pomonaman43,
Can answer a couple
UH-1B Commonality - thats what every thing else was fitted with (public service "we got shelves and shelves of these, we can save a bundle". 5 channel crystal tuned a pain in the proverbial) - just a pity they chopped the wiring looms with bolt cutters so it would be difficult to rewire.
Kiowa - When I took delivery of the first one it was bog standard - up to date and a joy. No mods, at least on the first one, had left prior to delivery of the others.

helmet fire, not sure if youre aware the Italians operate 212's off the back of small ships (destroyer/frigates I think) with sonar for the anti sub role.

[Squidly]

Helmet Fire, et al.

Steel skids on steel decks - what a blast!

R.A.N. AS350Bs deploying in Frigates as the interim FFG helicopter from 1984 until 1989. Continued embarking even after the Seahawks were introduced and even saw service with the Fleet in the first Gulf War (The FFGs took both a Squirrel and Seahawk).

There's nothing like that sliding feeling when you've just landed on and the ship takes an unexpected 22 degree roll before the Team can lash you down!:eek:

The R.A.N. also flew Scouts and Kiowas (B206) from the survey ship Moresby for many years. A real challenge as the ship was not stabalised and rolled on wet grass.

All I can say is thank goodness for wheels (and the second engine is nice during blue water ops).

Squidly

p.s. East Timor has certainly kicked the Seasprite and Tiger and Munitions and AWB .... from the front page. Anybody heard anything new?

[SASless]

http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/Vietnam/riverine/images/f20.jpg

http://134.198.33.115/atav/a32.jpg

Helmet Fire,


UH-1's routinely landed on top of LCM's and LCU's with flat tops over the well decks.

Also, Bell 212's and 412's have operated off survey/seismic boats for years.

[7balja01]

i dont know what to say? personally, i think that the military isnt much good for anything. they can't even get militia off the streets in dili. i totally agree with bellfest and imabell. yous have got good ideology.

but all this wouldnt stop me from joining up???!!! there's good money to be got, and im starting to understand why.

bally.:D

[eagle 86]

I say again - I was only taking the piss out of HF!!
GAGS
E86

[OziOziOzi]

i dont know what to say? personally, i think that the military isnt much good for anything. they can't even get militia off the streets in dili.

Don't know what to say? It's better to be quiet and have people think you're stupid than open your mouth and dispel any doubt. Perhaps the situation in East Timor is a little more complex than you would understand.

[eagle 86]

Took the words right out of my mouth!!
GAGS
E86

[maxeemum]

i dont know what to say? personally, i think that the military isnt much good for anything. they can't even get militia off the streets in dili. i totally agree with bellfest and imabell. yous have got good ideology.

but all this wouldnt stop me from joining up???!!! there's good money to be got, and im starting to understand why.

bally.:D

Bally,

Mate aren't you the same critter that wants to know who flys up and down the SE QLD strip? Happy smiling faces squawking code 1200? You are somewhat foolish bagging the Mil then stating that you would'nt mind singing up. No system is perfect, the Mil cetrtainly has its problems, however best not to comment if you have never been part of the system.

Any how back to the thread!!!!!!


:=

[bellfest]

i dont know what to say? personally, i think that the military isnt much good for anything. they can't even get militia off the streets in dili. i totally agree with bellfest and imabell. yous have got good ideology

I would appreciate it if you didn't associate me with your insults of the frontline. My gripe goes way beyond there control and I wouldn't for one minute think I could do a better job:=

[7balja01]

sorry about that.

friday-saturday party too much alcohol. your right though, i did say something stupid. the adf is the best in the world, we even taught the americans how to fight during vietnam. i guess i was just upset after watching the gangs in dili with the aussies not capable of doing much. answered by fire on the abc, backs that up back in 1999. notice the gov't didnt help the timorese for 25 yrs until they realised timor was just a stepping stone for the indonesians.

my apologies, but the seasprite is still crap.

bally.

[SASless]

we even taught the americans how to fight during vietnam.

Perhaps I missed something during my two tours in Vietnam, Shag!

I remember it being a collaorative effort with your Lads and Lasses at Nui Dat.

We formed close relationships with those folks as we worked together.

Perhaps the 135th EMU's were not really a joint effort.

Have another beer Bally....then carry on telling us all about Vietnam would you?:ugh:

[maxeemum]

I was waiting for you to latch on to this one SAS. I think our friend knows nothing of 9 SQN, EMU Flight or any of the FAC work that was done "collaboratively" by the combined forces effort.

I can only assume that Bally is attempting a wind up, which means its the perfect time for a perfect quote: "The easiest way to look like a D - - K head is to argue with one, and so I am out when it comes to posts from old mate.

Good luck son enjoy. Punter or Player you decide!!!

Max

:D

[topendtorque]

I’ve been informed that Mr Bally is in fact Master Bally, so I’ll not ball him out too much. I notice he uses the oz slang yous, usually spelt youse. Someone recently asked me to clarify some of the oz slang seen in certain posts. I found this site which might help.
http://www.anu.edu.au/andc/res/LambertonAND.php (http://www.anu.edu.au/andc/res/LambertonAND.php)
A dictionary of 400 or so strine words / phrases. It doesn’t give the localities of the speech origins.

The origin locality of the word ‘youse’ is hinted at via the ref to Steele Rudd who wrote in hilarious vein about a farmer turned politician back in the 1800’s in SE Queensland. ‘Youse’ is now usually only an idiom of the backblocks.

Here is a class quote from young Bally;
“we even taught the americans how to fight during vietnam”

Perhaps Master Bally could read a recent new release, ‘18 Hours’ by Sandra Lee – Harper Collins publishing. A story about Charlie Company of the 1st Batt, 87 Inf Reg at the US 10th mountain Div and two OZ signallers, where the supreme courage of fresh faced youngsters, all of whom were born after Vietnam finished, one only seventeen, gained for themselves a presidential citation amongst many other decorations during one very unpleasant day in Afghanistan.

Collaboration between themselves and the OZ SAS signals types seconded to the unit was also well noted.

A tone of reverance to the ‘frontliners’ from one so young could be welcome. I am happy to display mine by repeating a quote from a certain Geoge Orwell in the books’ preface.

‘We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us’.

Meanwhile back to the thread, yes the list of useless oz military hardware is endless, one outfit who took the piss out of the latest seasprite debacle with satire and humour was the ABC TV show ‘Chasers war on everything’.

[7balja01]

very good!:D

master ball.

[Cyclic Hotline]

The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21201454-601,00.html)

What a sorry affair this has been.

The Australian people were sold a worthless machine, repackaged and modernised into something even more worthless than the original.

I hope they are successful in getting a refund!:eek:

[NickLappos]

Says a bunch for the procurement team that chose a retreaded 1960's helo over the entire field of more modern machines!

[eagle 86]

Typical of the ineptitude of the Australian Labor Party re Defence matters!
Navy wanted more Seahawks but government was committed to Offshore Patrol Vessels (subsequently cancelled) in which SH would supposedly not fit.
GAGS
E86

[noooby]

Excellent!!!! Hopefully the New Zealand Govt will buy them, chuck all the crap that the Aussies tried to run them with, and have more great helicopters for the Navy :)
A great little helo, which has been serving very well on the Eastern side of the Tasman Sea. Pity the Aussie Govt stuffed up what should have been a relatively straight forward purchase. Nice work team!!! :ok:

[Delta Torque]

Well,

If it's anything like the Skyhawk deal a couple of decades ago, the government will pay billions for the retrofit, then give them to the Kiwis gratis. After a year or so, someone will identify the strategic requirement for the Seasprites, then lease the fleet, complete with pilots from the Kiwis....

:ugh:

[sunnywa]

E86,

As much as I don't like the Aust Labour Party, the procurement decision for the Sea Sprite lies squarely with the Navy Procurement team led by a CAPT Engineer. The Patrol Boat option (muted with Malaysia) fell through well before the final deal but the project team fell in love (lust?) with the idea of this small airframe packing all of the goodies. Too many inexperienced people with too much pull on the D.

For those of us who were at the frontline when the final deliberations were being undertaken, we were assured that the aircraft was a working model and we wouldn't fall into the trap of the Sea Hawk (S70B2) integration problems. Lo and behold, only a month or so late, we were stuck with this pig with four different major weapons system and a new thing called ITAS to make it all work. Yes we were assured, we can get a P3 into an airframe that size. What a waste and all those at Nowra knew it.:ugh:

Its only money so lets do it properly the next time. Poor old 805 Sqn - over sea and sand (in what exactly).

[Little Fish]

I suppose scrapping the seasprite will help achieve the rationalisation of aircraft types that the Navy keep talking about, but then again arent they now getting 3 x A109's to keep guys hands in why they wait for an operational type.

The sooner the Army and Navy go to a light twin for training and NH90's all round, as well as CH47's and Tigers the better. Take the short term loss of capability for a huge gain in the future. At least navy guys wont then have to go to AS350, then A109, and then an operational type.

[Heli-kiwi]

The scrapping of the fleet could be NZs saviour considering they can't even get a spare rotorblade out of Kaman at the moment. NZ may have got new airframes but finding some components to go in them is still a struggle and if this deal between ADF and Kaman goes belly up it will be interesting to see if Kaman defence folds.
It would be nice to have access to spares just across the ditch though........

[noexcessivecranking]

RAN Seasprite: Hear Our Case, Kaman Execs Tell Defence Minister

http://www.shephard.co.uk/Rotorhub/Default.aspx?Action=745115149&ID=7d1f94ec-0ae9-438a-855f-8980c220673c

Linking to story to avoid breaking copyright laws. Those with less scruples (or those who believe scruples is money in Russia), feel free to copy and paste the article. :=

[evilroy]

The decision has been made - and it looks like Brendon Nelson got over-ruled.

The Seasprite programme continues....

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Govt-to-continue-Seasprite-contract/2007/05/25/1179601623568.html

[havick]

Looks like all us JOUT's or boggies will have to implement plan B once off course, eat our way in to a Seahawk or NH90 (when they get here).

[evilroy]

Just remember you have to be the right size / shape to go to the Sprite. If, however, you fit the bill.... well, you know where you are going after 723.

[havick]

hence my previous post.

[Trojan1981]

Just heard that the seasprite program has been cancelled. I can't find a news link at the moment.

[John Eacott]

Cancelled: ABC News. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/05/2180394.htm)

Labor cleans up Seasprite 'mess'

Billion-dollar dud: A Navy Seasprite goes through its paces (www.navy.gov.au)

The Federal Government has cancelled Australia's $1 billion commitment to the Royal Australian Navy's controversial Seasprite helicopter project.

Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon made the announcement at a visit to a Newcastle engineering firm this morning.

The $1 billion Seasprite fleet was due to enter service in 2001 but was indefinitely grounded in 2006.

An upgrade of a 1960s airframe with 21st century avionics, the helicopters are unable to be operated reliably in poor visibility conditions and at night.

A statement from the Defence Department said discussions with the contractor would start immediately.

"Today's announcement demonstrates our determination to make tough decisions whenever required for the security of the nation and the safety and capability of our Defence Force," Mr Fitzgibbon said.

"The decision taken by the Rudd Labor Government is one that should have been taken by the Leader of the Opposition, Brendan Nelson, when he had the opportunity last year.

"But his Government decided to put its own political interests ahead of the national interest. Consequently, the responsibility of cleaning up the mess they created falls to us."

Coalition defence spokesman Nick Minchin says Mr Fitzgibbon must explain what it will cost to drop the Seasprite contract, and what legal action the contractor Kaman will take.

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200803/r229657_915754.jpg

[turboshaft]

Seasprite cancelled (http://www2.skynews.com.au/news/article.aspx?id=220555).

Don't think I've ever seen a carcass that had to be backed over so many times before it finally died... :hmm:

[bladebanger]

Turboshaft,
Well said. Just think of the dickheads in this country who are still employed by the goverment who made these decisions are still in the same jobs making the same decisions. I still cannot believe that the price tag is 1 BILLION dollars. Hope all you tax payers in Australia raise hell over this.

Banger

[topendtorque]

Don't think I've ever seen a carcass that had to be backed over so many times before it finally died


like that, but please not in front of the animal libbers.

and

I still cannot believe that the price tag is 1 BILLION dollars. Hope all you tax payers in Australia raise hell over this.



I guess that if we weren't sorry
well now we're proper sorry

[Screwed™]

"Just think of the dickheads in this country who are still employed by the goverment who made these decisions are still in the same jobs making the same decisions."

Couldn't agree more. And we keep doing it! :ugh:

"I'll take half of that one, and half of that one and we'll bolt them together"
"...ahh sir, you can't do that".
"...well, that's what we're doing. Make it happen. Now, what's for lunch?" :sad:

The Super Hornet is up next.....

[Heli-kiwi]

The safety and security of Australia is in the hands of these overpaid monkeys..... thats another project butchered - the blood has been hosed away.....bring in the Super Hornets that the yanks don't want :rolleyes: :ugh:

[Trojan1981]

"I'll take half of that one, and half of that one and we'll bolt them together"
"...ahh sir, you can't do that".
"...well, that's what we're doing. Make it happen. Now, what's for lunch?"

:D Classic! It's so true.

this quote, from another site set up by some good soldiers, sums it up well:
(SIC)
"These tasks will require a through knowledge of nuclear physics, the physical ability of an average grown person and the thought process of a young child. The army has the innate if not magical ability to take what would be the smallest of simple tasks, and break down these tasks, into what would be the same level of a nuclear physics lesson. This is done for some unusual reason, but it is thought that this is done to make a task last longer, and make everyone think 'Why are we doing this'. There is also a school of thought, that persons in command, just do it because they can, why not make the job harder than it has to be, they are not doing it."

[Senior Pilot]

Kaman must be laughing all the way to the bank. They keep and sell the aircraft, keep half the sale figure, and the Australian taxpayers just cop the loss :ooh:

ABC News: (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/20/2195901.htm?section=justin)

Govt to receive $40m for scrapped Seasprites

The Federal Government says it will receive just under $40 million as part of the agreement to scrap the Seasprites helicopter project.

The Government announced earlier this month it was scrapping the $1.3 billion contract because of safety concerns.

Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon says the Government has now agreed on the terms of the cancellation with the contractor Kaman.

The helicopters, training equipment and other spare parts will be sold, and the Government will receive a guaranteed financial return of just under $40 million

[John Eacott]

Kaman press release:

Kaman Corp. (Nasdaq: KAMN) reported today that its subsidiary, Kaman Aerospace International Corporation (Kaman), has reached an agreement with the Commonwealth of Australia that establishes mutually agreed terms for conclusion of the SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite program.

Under the terms of the Agreement, ownership of the 11 SH-2G(A) Super Seasprite helicopters will be transferred to Kaman along with spare parts and associated equipment. The transfer is subject to US government approval and the Commonwealth will carry out that process, which could take several months. Thereafter, Kaman will seek to sell the aircraft to another customer or customers and will share the proceeds of each sale with the Commonwealth under a pre-established formula. Kaman has agreed that at least $37 million (US) of such payments will be made to the Commonwealth regardless of sales, with at least $25 million (US) to be paid by March 2011, and $6 million (US) each in years 2012 and 2013. Under the agreement, Kaman will forego payment on approximately $35 million (US) in net unbilled receivables in exchange for the helicopters, spare parts and equipment, which will be recorded as inventory. The value of this inventory is expected to exceed the amount of the net unbilled receivables and the guaranteed payments.

In commenting on the agreement, Neal J. Keating, chairman, president and chief executive officer of Kaman Corporation, said, "We appreciate the Australian government's willingness to work with us to develop a mutually satisfactory path to conclude their Super Seasprite program. We are also pleased to have the opportunity to sell these highly capable aircraft to another customer."

The Kaman Super Seasprite is currently serving with the governments of Egypt, New Zealand and Poland. The aircraft also served with distinction as a front-line U.S. Navy helicopter, where its reliability and durability were well respected.

Kaman Corp. conducts business in the aerospace and industrial distribution markets.

Australian Government statement:

On 5 March 2008 the Government announced its intention to cancel the Seasprite helicopter project.

A satisfactory conclusion to the Seasprite project has now been agreed with the contractor, Kaman, to cancel the project on mutually agreed terms. An agreement has today been signed between the Australian Government and the contractor setting out the agreed terms. The agreement has some confidential aspects, however I can say that, subject to US Government approval, the project deliverables including the aircraft, training equipment and spare parts would be returned to Kaman for sale on the open market. The Australian Government and Kaman would share in the profits of subsequent sales.

Under the agreement, the Australian Government will receive at least 50 per cent of the proceeds from any sale of the helicopters by Kaman with a guaranteed financial return from Kaman of $39.5 million. In addition a further $30 million worth of spares will be retained for use on the Seahawk and Black Hawk helicopter fleets.

Further, the Australian Government has saved $150 million that would otherwise have been spent on the Seasprite project that will now be available for use on other capability.

Minister for Defence Joel Fitzgibbon said that he was pleased that the early resolution that had been achieved by the Australian negotiating team removes the uncertainty surrounding the Seasprite project.

This is considered the best outcome for the Government as well as the personnel affected by the decision. The Government is assisting Kaman with the transition of their personnel in a sector that is short of qualified and experienced people.

Mr Fitzgibbon said, “The Government has taken the tough decision and acted decisively to achieve the necessary outcome without a protracted legal dispute, to ensure the nation’s security.

“A legal and financial framework to facilitate the agreement is in place that provides a reasonable return for the Australian taxpayer. We are determined to ensure that the Defence Force receives the capability it needs. We have learned some valuable lessons from this project that we can apply to better ensure the success of future projects, and make sure that taxpayers receive value for their money,” Mr Fitzgibbon said.

[Ian Corrigible]

This might meet the RAN's requirements: there's a company mentioned here (http://www.shephard.co.uk/Rotorhub/Default.aspx?Action=745115149&ID=8176761d-be5e-4359-aa0a-0a566cab6d1e) which is offering a dozen or so 'rapid response delivery' maritime helicopters, available off-the-shelf.

From what I hear, they also have some experience of working in Aus. I'll see if I can dig out a contact number... :E

I/C

[Brian Abraham]

Why don't we order, say 50. I bet they're cheap. :sad: