Jet Pilots Are Real Professionals

[Prop's ????]

Last week I had witnessed some of the best airmanship ever displayed from a QF 737-400.

It was dark, they where holding at the B2 holding point RWY 16R.

It was great to see they kept the nose wheel taxi light on while holding. It must help the guys on short final find the runway while trying to land.

They where cleared to line-up behind a B767 on final, given 15 seconds before the B767 had passed them; they turned on their LANDING and STROBE lights while holding.

They are really looking after their mates, the B767 would have never found the runway if it weren’t for their 737 mates holding with all the lights on.

GOOD JOB BOYS.
:8 :8 :8

[Z Force]

You mean to say you haven't seen other airlines do this??

[Hugh Jarse]

Hey Props, are you sure it wasn't a QF 767? They usually taxi with everything switched on at night, and are completely oblivious to how this effects other users at the airport.....

I've found a simple solution: Approach and Flare lights on usually gets the message across.

Airmanship? What's that? They earn enough to pay somebody else to worry about it.

Sorry Keg :E

[Capt Fathom]

Maybe they just see you comin' Jarse and give you a blast!;)

[Hugh Jarse]

I never thought about it that way C.F.:}

Must be the red hair:E

[DJ737]

A QF 767 not being able to find 16R because it was dark:rolleyes:

DJ737
The Roo Rooter:E

[Waste Gate]

I usually turn off the taxi /landing / turnoff lights at the holding point, especially if there is another A/C facing me on the opposite side of the runway, but I do forget occasionally. . .

I don't have an issue with taxi lights on at the holding point when I'm landing because I find they get lost in the runway lighting anyway, and all going well I'm looking 1000ft further down the runway.

Jarse, the dash is really difficult to see in the dark, especially when approaching from behind. Also, on several occasions I've been holding at the northern end of twy B, short of the domestic apron, stopped head-on to a Dash taxiing from the pond, and I didn't see it till it flashed me! Maybe it's better if you
do turn your headlights on!:eek: :eek:

WG.

[Kaptin M]

C'mon girls, let's not get too excited now. Have a bit of think about things, particularly the geometry :confused: of the beam angle required for aircraft.

Q What is the usual anu (aircraft nose up) attitude during approach, of a landing jet aircraft?
Who said -3 degrees?? Wrrrong!
0 degrees? Wrrrong!
A Try +2.5 to +3 degrees (nose UP).

Next question.
Q Where is the beam of the landing lights during this 3 degree anu approach?
A If they're correctly adjusted - it will be slightly DOWN, or at in the worst case scenario straight ahead.

So in the example that Prop's ???? has thrown up:- QWith an aircraft on the ground, (and 0 degrees body angle) where would one expect the lights to be focused?
Who said DOWN, and about 50 metres ahead for the inboard and outboard lights, and about 1/2 that distance for the nose wheel light? Sounds as though you'd be pretty much in the ball park, if you did.

Sure the strobes might have been a tad distracting, but not enough to cause any problem(s) to the approaching aircraft...............unless they were inadvertently lined up on the parallel taxiway. In which case they would have averted - at least - a major embarassment for the landing aircraft.

Had it been a low cloud, low vis/foggy situation, then the use of the strobes might then have been a "consideration" factor for the landing aircraft, by the departing one.

[Wizofoz]

I remember being nose to nose with a Compass A300 across rwy 23 at Perth one dark night. Highly professtional gentlemen put all their landing lights on and sat there with them in our faces for about 5 minutes, effectivley destroying our night vision.

Real pros...

[Kaptin M]

And so being the "proffestional sic gentlemen" responsible for those you had on board, you delayed your take-off for 20 minutes or so!

[helldog]

Props. Maybe your could have asked as to why they could have had their strobes on rather than attacking their professionalism. Maybe they turned them on for a reason and were distracted by something far more important at the time. Just a thought.

[Sheep Guts]

Props,,
I totally agree with Helldog, you cant criticise from the outside. If you do, your only telling one half of the story. Props Slandering the crew with "unprofessionalism", without their right of reply to the occurence, is cheap and nasty. Any distraction in the cockpit could have caused this. Its the old story, you really dont know unless you are in the" Driver in the Seat". Thats why I hate accident and incident post analysis, without waiting until the Authorities and Investigative bodies have had their say. Misshaps in aviation do happen, we need to understand why they happen, to educate and prevent further occurences. Simple sledging and bantering without all the facts is a Kangaroo Court Mentality.


Regards
Sheep

[hoss]

Hey Kaptin M, you forgot to mention that if it was 16R with an westerly blowing and it was the FO's leg (assuming the FO uses a wing down technique) then that could be another consideration :p :ok: .

[Chocks Away]

Yep, AIRMANSHIP certainly HAS disappeared.

Don't give us that, about Dash 8s being hard to see... especially from the flood lit "pond".

I've had no trouble seeing them, in all types of wx... looks like you've gotta turn down your newspaper-reading light ... AND actively LISTEN to ground also... oh I forgot... thats airmanship.

:}

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Strobes on are a signal that the other aircraft has a conditional clearance to move on to the active. So are landing lights on.

KapM is correct. At B2, strobes and landing lights on pose no hazard to a 767 pilot on 16r whose eye height over the threshold is 45 feet or so and touching down 1100 feet past that particular taxiway.

While I personally turn the strobes on (company policy)but not the landing lights, I see no problem with people doing this.

Taxing towards each other is another matter.

[Prop's ????]

HELLDOG – As a matter of fact, they called READY five minutes before they where cleared to line-up. Most would have to assume they were ready for takeoff. Placing the strobes lights on adjacent the runway on the holding point is an indication that you intend to enter the runway. The 767 on final must have seen the strobes.

To avoid distractions, maybe we should turn on our transponder, strobe & landing lights when we call ready? Gives us time to put the coffee down when cleared to line up.

KAPTIN M– Have to say, you always contribute great technical stuff. But occasionally miss the point.
:ok:

[Eurocap]

Bit like the QF Captain giving an excuse to the punters for a bad landing being the result of being given the wrong QNH, prior to landing.

[Kaptin M]

You're quite right, jake, I did miss the point. I had assumed that you were indicating that the actual lights were central to this issue, whereas I now think that you were more concerned that the crew of the 76 on finals might have been led to believe that the 73 was going to pull out in front of him during his approach. Correct (or, not?)?

It is USUAL for crews to turn on the strobes prior to entering an active runway - whether crossing, or lining up for t/o.
However, it is also the habit (and quite possibly SOPS) for some pilots to turn them on, having received a clearance to line up, eg, "Behind the landing aircraft, line up behind." (what was wrong with the old "Line up behind the landing aircraft", btw?). So is it possible that this may have been the 73's instruction?
I don't know what the Big Q's sops say wrt that - perhaps a QF pilot might like to quote us his/her O.M. But if IS the case (that QANTAS crew turn on their ll's and strobes upon receipt of a line-up clearance), and the crew read that clearance back, then surely the QF76 crew would have been aware of what their company aircraft was doing?

As I've said before, a major concern of mine is that pilots are being "dumbed down", ie. robotic like actions as standard response to certain situations at the expense of airmanship.
This may WELL be another example of pilots being trained to complete a certain action EVERY TIME without thinking (read airmanship/common sense), regardless of the ambient conditions.:confused:

[The Enema Bandit]

PROPS???? You wouldn't be related to Brett Godfrey would you?

[scud_runner]

On the issue of jet pilot professionalism I think that some of the QF 737 guys really need to work on their radio skills, some of them are absolutely apalling. I've seen student pilots who have had better command of a radio than some of the gibberish I've heard from QF 737s. This is not isolated instances these are reoccuring problems.

[ftrplt]

and the name 'scud runner' brings such a professional image as well

[Capt Fathom]

Just an observation...
QF radio calls can be pretty ordinary at times. But Virgin! Center can call them half a dozen times before they recognise their own callsign!!!

[sedgie]

scud_runner,

At least they use the radio. The Dash-8's at Horn Island go in stealth mode. Than they get the ****s when you get close too them. And coastwatch chopper pilots, I am sure they don't have VHF radios.

[compressor stall]

Yep we're a real professional [sic] lot sitting round like little kids dobbing and whinging about each other. :mad:

Those in glass houses. :ugh:

[OpsNormal]

Shouldn't throw parties!!!!! ;) :):O :p :D :) :} :ok:

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Must have been a bit of a sit around. Boredom does amazing things.

[Keg]

Learnt my airmanship from the best Jarse!! :D :E :} :ok:

[Waste Gate]

Don't give us that, about Dash 8s being hard to see... especially from the flood lit "pond".

I've had no trouble seeing them, in all types of wx... looks like you've gotta turn down your newspaper-reading light ... AND actively LISTEN to ground also... oh I forgot... thats airmanship.

Nice try chocks . . .

It's also really hard to read a newspaper and hold the NWS tiller at the same time. :zzz: :zzz:

Can't see the tail of a Dash 8 from behind at night. The only prominent lighting is the prop discs illuminated by its landing lights. Try it for yourself one night.

WG.

[mr hanky]

It mightn't have been how I work the lights myself - but had it been me in the jet on approach, I can't say I would've been overly upset. Landing/taxi lights shining directly in my face? No - doesn't bother me then. Strobes on? Again, doesn't bother me, as long as the jet isn't moving past the holding point when it shouldn't.

While this job can have its moments, for the most part it's a relatively easy and pleasant way to make a living. What a shame that some people feel the need to make a bloody drama out of absolutely everything.

[OzExpat]

Somebody asked why the phraseology of the "line up" clearance changed. I'm not an ATCO but it seems to me that the reason is pretty obvious - hence probably why nobody answered it before I decided to state the (probably) bleeding obvious.

If the Tower says "Line up behind the landing...", there is a risk that the crew only hears the "line up" part. So now the emphasis is on drawing the crew's attention to the aircraft on final, or short final, or whatever. Thus, the first thing they hear is "behind the...".

I confess that, at times, I've had to request confirmation of the instruction - usually because I'm distracted by something of an operational nature - but I believe that this phraseology is better than the former phraseology. It might even have its' genesis in a rather well known prang some years ago involving a Dutch airline and a US airline... but that's strictly personal conjecture, of course.

As to when I activate strobe and landing lights, our SOPs are to do so only after we actually receive clearance to enter the runway to line up. I have no real problem with anyone else who does it differently because I'm looking beyond those lights. Can't say that I've ever even SEEN strobe and/or landing lights in use by an aircraft at the holding point - I'm sure there MUST have been times when that happened, but it has never bothered me at all.

Nose to nose on opposing sides of the active runway? I have been known to ask the relevant question on the frequency. The reply has always been most apologetic. No problem.