Bell 407 down off Queensland coast

[Heliport]

ABC News Online One dead, two missing in Qld helicopter crash.

A full-scale search is underway for two missing men after a emergency response helicopter crashed into the sea, off the central coast of Queensland.

A search and rescue spokesman says the body of one man aged in his early-thirties has already been recovered from the water near the wreckage.

The upturned wreckage of the Bell 407 helicopter was found halfway between Mackay and Hamilton Island.

The last contact from the helicopter, which was flying from Mackay to Hamilton Island to pick up a patient, was received just before 11pm AEST on Friday.

A helicopter with infra red equipment is continuing to search for the two other men, who are also aged in their early-thirties.

Another plane is hovering over the area, looking for emergency beacons.

The search involves four helicopters, two light planes, and police divers.


Hamilton Island, the largest inhabited island of the 74 tropical Whitsunday islands, is just off the Queensland Coast and at the edge of the Great Barrier Reef.

http://www.mackay.qld.gov.au/__data/page/288/mackay_map.jpg

[penash]

Chopper crashes off Mackay, 2 dead
October 18, 2003

2 RESCUE workeras are dead and one other is missing after a helicopter on a medical evacuation flight crashed into the ocean off the Queensland coast overnight.

Australian Search and Rescue was notified just after 10.30pm (AEST) last night that the helicopter carrying three men on a 30-minute flight from Mackay to Hamilton Island failed to arrive to collect a man with a broken leg.

Air Services Australia say contact was lost with the helicopter 28km north of Mackay.

A Hamilton Island based rescue helicopter was sent to find the chopper, a Bell 407, and with the aid of a spotlight found it upturned just under the surface of the water.

The body of a man aged in his 30s was found floating in the water near the wreckage. a second body has been recovered


Another helicopter with an infrared camera searched for the other two rescue personnel - also men aged in their 30s - while a fixed-wing aircraft searched above the site.

[deeper]

Hamilton island (the destination) has a fully serviceable airport with most aids.
Mackay (departure point) has a fully servicable airport with most aids.
Why does a single engine night VFR 407 embark on a night flight over water to pick up a person with a broken leg. This was not a rescue it was a transfer flight. surely an aeroplane would have been the logical answer for the task.
It's no wonder that medical staff are becoming more reticent about boarding helicopters with the ammount of single engine helicopter night flights that have ended in fatalities in Australia.
We have a terrible history in this regard.

My sincere condolences to the families of the young pilot and the keen young crewmen who are no longer with us.
RIP

[crusty scab]

Deeper,

As you can't possibly know the specifics of the injury, or the availability of other aircraft, and must be aware that family members may be viewing this forum; perhaps you could have been a little less judgemental?

[trimpot]

Deeper

Pull your head in you fool.:mad:

[Time Out]

Two men are confirmed dead and one is still missing after a rescue helicopter crashed into the sea off Mackay, on the central Queensland coast.

Two bodies have been found floating near the wreckage this morning.

A full scale search is under way for the other missing crew member.

The CQ Rescue chopper had been flying a standard mission to Hamilton Island to pick up an injured person.

The alarm was raised when the three-man crew failed to reach the island at around 10:30pm AEST on Friday.

With the help of air traffic control tapes, a helicopter search found the wreckage of the Bell 407 in the sea north-west of Mackay shortly after it was reported missing.

When first spotted, the helicopter was floating in the water with the aid of emergency floats. It has since sunk.

Police divers will shortly begin searching the wreckage, which is 6.5 metres underwater.

CQ Rescue Helicopter president John Bird says there is no obvious cause for the crash.

"All of the crew were experienced and the night last night was a clear night with very little wind, and there were no adverse weather conditions and the aircraft was shortly out from Mackay," he said.

ABC online (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s969767.htm)

[Autorotate]

I visited the operation in Mackay about a year ago and was very impressed with the operation there. The 407 looked in great order, crew seemed to be very much on the ball and being a CHC Australia operation I wouldnt have expected anything otherwise.

That part of Queensland seems to be a haven for accidents in the EMS world. Just look back over the past couple of years.

Not making any assumptions on what happened but hope they find the cause soon. Sad to see another crew lost in a tragic waste of helicopter industry professionals.

:E

[Bat63]

Firstly, my condolences to the family and friends of those lost in this tragic accident.
This sad occasion may not be the time or the place to bring up this topic but isn't it time that single engine night operations in helicopters came to an end (EMS and marine pilot transfers included)
I'm afraid if this doesn't happen we will be reading about many more friends and collegues perishing in similar circumstances in the future.
If there are other people that think this should end what can we do as a group to put pressure on CASA to stop this lunacy ASAP.

[Arm out the window]

Singles or twins, they can all go in for various reasons, so how about some respect for the crew and wait for investigations.

[Bat63]

I apologise if I offended anyone by posting this subject on this thread.I mean't no disrespect to the crew.

[High Nr]

Dr Deeper, was not being judgemental. read his words not your emotions. the questions he/she asks are relevant, and will be asked again and again in the coming months.

He is very observant.....take the time and review the statistics.

And Yes, lets not allow this thread to droop to the detriment of our Industry, and at the same time, lets not hide from the facts.

[penash]

Mystery over chopper crash
DAVID ENGLISH and MELISSA KETCHELL
19oct03
AIR safety investigators were last night trying to unravel the mystery of why a rescue helicopter crashed at full speed into the sea off Mackay.

There was no distress message, no emergency beacons were activated and weather conditions were "perfect for flying" during the ill-fated mercy flight in which two crewmen died and another is missing feared dead.

The Central Queensland Rescue Service Bell 407 inexplicably crashed north of Mackay, between Cape Hillsborough and Green Island, about 15 minutes after taking off at 9.35pm on Friday.

The helicopter had been on a routine flight to Hamilton Island to pick up a woman who had broken her leg.

Preliminary investigations indicated the helicopter ploughed into the waves at full speed.

It was believed the pilot and two paramedics, all aged 32, died on impact. Their names had not been released last night.

By late yesterday the bodies of two of the three crewmen had been recovered. Searchers were not optimistic about finding the third man alive.

The pilot involved in the latest accident had extensive experience with marine helicopters and was on a flight described as routine.

Rescue Co-ordination Centre spokesman Ben Mitchell said there were several puzzling aspects to the crash. There was no emergency call from the chopper and no distress beacons were triggered, indicating the crash was without warning.

Early indications were the helicopter had hit the water while flying at normal cruising speed, rather than having crashed after an engine failure.

The first sign that something had gone wrong came when the Bell 407 failed to arrive at Hamilton Island on time. Authorities called the Rescue Co-ordination Centre in Canberra when it was 15 minutes late.

The Rescue Centre asked Air Services Australia, which monitors aircraft, to check radar identification tapes. The check revealed contact had been lost with the Bell 407 about 15 minutes into the 30-minute flight.

A helicopter was sent from Hamilton Island and saw wreckage floating just below the surface.

A volunteer vessel from Mackay found the body of one man floating close to the wrecked chopper. There was no sign of the two crew members.

A second search helicopter equipped with an infra-red camera was called in about 2am yesterday.

At daybreak yesterday the task of trying to find crew members continued.

Four helicopters, two planes and three boats went back to the crash area to search for the two missing men. Just before 9am, police divers found a second body in the wreckage.

A team from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau arrived at the crash site late yesterday morning to begin an official investigation.

The US-based company that provided the helicopter, which had been in service since September 2001, is sending representatives to Mackay to conduct its own inquiry.

The injured woman, who had broken her leg in a golf buggy accident, was transferred to Mackay Hospital by boat yesterday morning.

Premier Peter Beattie paid tribute to the crash victims, describing them as heroes.

"These are good people who put their lives at risk every day. They are the real heroes who make this state work," he said.

Mr Beattie said the Government would do everything possible to support the families of the victims.

"My heart goes out to them . . . we are all shocked."

The crash was the third involving rescue helicopters in Queensland in the past three years.

In April 2001, a Capricorn Helicopter Rescue Service Bell 407 crashed into the ocean during a night mission 240km off Rockhampton.

In July 2000, five people died when a Bell LongRanger crashed near Marlborough, north of Rockhampton.

And the Whitsundays was the scene of a tragedy in September last year, when a Piper Cherokee plane crashed soon after takeoff from Hamilton Island, killing all six on board.

[NOtimTAMs]

Very very sad. Condolences to families and friends.

The following is said without *any* intention of disrespect to the dedicated crew who have lost their lives in this tragic accident and is in memory of colleagues that I have lost in the past.

I have been involved in a past life with many medevacs over many years, in acft varying from single heli to jet. One thing that has struck me is that there has been this enthusiasm from medical and lay sources for aerial transport, especially at night, for many injuries/illnesses that could in fact have waited either for daylight, or could have been completed by surface (boat/road/hovercraft...).

I am not for one instant making a judgment on the decision to dispatch in this case, but I have seen cases in the past where there has been a fracture (or two) where the patient has been splinted, is comfortable, has no compromise to circulation/sensation or other risk to the limb, but has been transported by air at great cost, and some increased risk by air, and especially at night in non-IFR acft. The same could be said for many non-trauma cases, as well. It is very dark at night over water and you really are on instruments - even on moonlit nights an orientable horizon can be difficult to discern.

Aeromedical transport can be fast and life-saving (seen that more frequently than the above, I'll admit ), but the risk and cost must be balanced against the benefits, as for any life activity. Even for the unstable patient, not moving, or moving by road/sea can offer benefits if there is no ICU level team trained in aeromedical transfer/retrieval as there is little chance of doing much active medical treatment in flight due to noise/vibration, etc., all of which can make some medical conditions worse. And, yes, many lives have been saved by night VFR flights, that would otherwise have been lost, but the risks and benefits must be clearly balanced.....

Again, condolences for loss of these three fine folk, who were trying to help to the best of their ability.

NOtimTAMs :(

[Time Out]

Sunday, October 19, 2003. 1:43pm (AEST)

Authorities have begun investigations into Friday night's rescue helicopter crash that killed three men off Queensland's central coast.

The CQ rescue helicopter was on a routine medical retrival to Hamilton Island off Queensland's central coast when it crashed into the sea near Mackay killing all three on board.

Experts from Brisbane have arrived in the region to begin identifying the remains that were found near the site of a crash that killed the three crew.

Police have released their names - the pilot was New Zealand-born Andrew Carpenter, the crewman were Stewart Eva and paramedic Craig Liddington, all all aged 31.

Investigators are hoping to salvage the Bell 407 chopper to determine what went wrong during a routine medical evacuation from Hamilton Island.

The chopper is now six-and-a-half metres under water about 15 nautical miles north of Mackay near Cape Hillsborough.

Representatives of Bell and engine manufacturer Rolls Royce are on their way to assist in the investigation.

The salvage is expected to take several days with investigators yet to inspect audio and radar tapes in the lead up to the crash.

Queensland Emergency Services Minister Mike Reynolds says it is a shocking accident.

"Every day of the week our emergency services personnel risk their lives for Queenslanders every day, and our heart must be very much out to those who've lost their lives, their families and colleagues as well," he said.

Queensland Premier Peter Beattie says the State Government will be looking closely at the report into the crash.

But he says his immediate thoughts are with the families of those who lost loved ones in the tragedy.

"Every day the paramedics and the services put their lives at risk," he said.

"They are real heroes and my commiserations and the commiserations of all Queenslanders go to the families of those men who tragically lost their lives."

It is the third rescue helicopter crash in central Queensland in the past three years, claiming eight lives.

Five people were killed three years ago when a Capricorn rescue helicopter ran low on fuel and crashed on a property near Marlborough.

One year later, two men escaped death when their rescue chopper ditched into the ocean near Swains Reef off Rockhampton.

Meanwhile, 240 kilometres off the coast of Gladstone, a search is underway for a man who fell overboard last night.

The alarm was raised around midnight when several passengers saw the man fall off the edge of the charter fishing boat.

ABC Online (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s970006.htm)

The report has a picture and video footage of the recovery etc.

[Steve76]

Can anyone relate the WX conditions for that evening?
Obiously it was CAVOK but was there any moon etc...

NVFR over water without an horizon is IFR.

[Scattercat]

Steve 76,
SAR forcast we recieved that night:
Valid 172000Z to 180800Z
For coast between Mackay & Hamilton Island
Overview:
Very isolated showers sea and coast until 23Z
Winds:
SFC 120/18 1000 100/15 2000 070/15
Cloud:
SCT CUSU 2500/8000
Weather: SHRA
Vis: 4000m in SHRA
24deg
1015

Not a terrible night to fly WX wise??

[Desert Flower]

NOtimTAMs, my thoughts exactly. Over the years I have often questioned the need to move non-urgent patients at night. My thoughts & sympathies are with the families of the crew.

DF.

[trackdirect]

No disrespect for the crew or families
Having done a fair bit of MPT work in the area there are not many nights you would want to fly NVFR over water in the whitsundays... after leaving the coast from mackay to hamilton there are not many visual references on a black night, the approach to hamilton is from the south, the resort is on the northern side.... so not much visible lighting from the south.
this only leaves navigation by reference the instruments.... isn't that IFR????

Brisbane radar track apparently shows a right turn followed by a climbing sharp left turn, then steep descent before lost from radar.

Sadly this is another example that VFR machines should not be doing this off shore work at night especially in EMS where the pressure is high to get the job done or face criticism.

Praise must be given to the crew from Hamilton Island for the fast response and subsequent finding of the downed 407.
This was carried out in an IFR BK117 with two pilots, two crew and nitesun. Good work Garry....

Lets hope that the authorities finally get their act together, there have been too many NVFR EMS accidents in QLD over the past few years.... due to flight in non NVFR conditions.

Condolances to the families involved...:(

Scattercat & steve76


Lowest Safe Between MKY and HTI is 3000.

With a forcast of SCT CU/SC 2500/8000... its not too good seeing as your CRZ LVL VFR should be 4500
Also pilots flying in the area reported no moon that night, makes for a very black night over water.

[Autorotate]

Didnt know the other crew members but knew Andy Carpenter. As well as being a subscriber to my magazine since it started he was a very nice guy and a competent pilot. He spent about three years flying for Heli Pro at Wellington in New Zealand before moving to instruct on 300Cs in Melbourne.

Then he got a job with Marine Helicopters in Gladstone flying marine pilot transfers etc. He got a break only a few weeks ago flying the 407. For what its worth he died doing what he loved. Funeral is probably going to be in his hometown of Blenheim here in Kiwiland.

Will post any further details re funeral when I hear them.

Autorotate.

[S76Heavy]

Another sad accident.

Without commenting on this specific tragdy, I would like to respond to the quote:
"Everyday the paramedics and the services put their lives at risk".
Why not reduce those risks by making the proper tools for the job available then?
Worldwide, HEMS aircraft seem to be at the bottom end of performance, equipment and last but not least, funding. Either recognise the limitations of those aircraft and stop tasking them for situations that they are not designed nor equipped for, or spend proper money and buy decent all weather equipment.:* and do the required training on it.

It's not fair to ask people to put their lives on the line to save somebody else when the community or operator or whoever is to skint to pay for proper transport, and then to call them heroes if the inevitable accident occurs:yuk:

Sorry for the rant, this is touching a nerve.

[High Nr]

I happen to agree totally with your observation, but have received a number of decenting PM's for my seemingly innocent comments.

There are a number of world class HEMS operations around Australia. These are all Multi Engine IFR Operations.

Then there is the next level down, which is operated by a group of Professional Pilots flying substandard equipment for the tasks that are sent their way [and the reason I am aware of this? I left, before I was to a statistic].

I am not casting doubts on any of the crews, or that engineer who signed the machine servicable, but rather the faceless individuals that are behind the scence, that allow, promote and legislate to permit such pressures to be placed on the crew.

You think this may be rubbing a raw nerve, then just wait until the team of Barristers gets their day in court, and watch these faceless individuals duck and weave.

Unfortuantely it won't assist this crew, but hopefully we will see something positive eventuate for me losing another collegue.

[Garry M]

No doubt the how and why will come out in the wash.
My thoughts are with the families of the deceased.
Andy was a nice young man who was too young to die.

RIP:(

[Scattercat]

S76Heavy
Totally agree with your "rant". Lots of us are hurting.
All to often the tasking agencies don't fully apreciate the limitations of particular equipment / operations and therefore the "go/no-go" decision comes back to the crew. How many times have we all looked back on a particular flight and in the light of day realised that we probably made the wrong call. (Just because we didn't have an accident didn't make it right!)
Unfortunatley the high level of skill & professionalism amongst most operators often masks the limitations of the equipment they are given to do the job with.
My 2 cents worth.

[Steve76]

I bumped into Andy a long time ago. Very sad.

It strikes me that there is very little wrong with the flying a single engine machine on this type of work. Nick can provide us with the stats....

No doubt it was equiped for NVFR/IFR work but was the pilot.

NO DISRESPECT here....don't go blasting me for this. Like I said.....I knew Andy as an associate as most pilots out of NZ do.
There are very few of us that haven't bumped into each other. The list of pilots I have met that now rest below our land is starting to become scary.

I fly with a lot of guys who have brand new IFR tickets. I used to be one of them. Very few of these guys would survive minutes in an IFR environment without someone to show them the ropes. Fortunately I had a bunch of very experienced lads teach me a thing or two...cheers Bakes, DC, BM, SD.
It is one thing to have bombed around on the sim and the heli simulating this but entirely another to be out doing it. As we all know the ticket is a licence to learn IFR. Do I hear a round of "Amens...."?

The reason I asked the question regarding the WX was obviously to accertain whether this was a time when more of the IFR skills were needed as opposed to the NVFR. If you haven't got a lot of time up on the clocks in cloud then offshore at night without a horizon is paramount to dangerous.

We have a bunch of Northern bases up here in CA that we service 24/7. It is so black without moonlight that once you lift off from the lit area it is like flying in outer space. You have to be on the clocks or you are dead. Technically it is planned as VFR but it is 100% IFR. I take my hat off to the pilots at these bases. I certainly notice the intensity of the workload when I am asked to fill in for a night shift up there. You cannot do this work with only a NVFR rating or a basic IFR without experience.

The trend in Queensland is testimony to this.

RIP Andy Carpenter.

[M/V]

Steve76,

I realise this is a `rumour' network but arn't you a little premature in saying the accident in Qld was pilot error? The gist of your post made it pretty obvious that you believe this accident was pilot error, none of us know what happened that night and it's pretty poor taste to speculate and discredit someone who recently died.

[Autorotate]

M/V - From the info I got it would seem, and I only say SEEM, that it was CFIT, or in this case CFIW.

Part of the info I received was that there was no maday call, according to ATC, and that according to those on the scene it hit very hard and very shallow. Bodies had to be identified by DNA and dental records because of the force of the impact.

Now I am not an accident investigator and have no desire to say if it was Andy's fault or mechanical failure. He was a really nice guy, good at his job but the only person that can really tell us 100% what happened is not alive to do so.

Finding the cause will allow all minds to be put at rest. The one thing that surprises me though is that Andy had just been working for Marine Helicopters doing marine pilot transfers over the same piece of ocean so was up to speed on night VFR but close friends of his said he didnt have an IFR rating. Does this make a difference, I dont honestly know as I am not a commercial pilot. Only those on this forum that fly that patch can answer that with accuracy.

I do know that this is yet another sad loss for the Aussie industry. Young, dedicated pilots with a passion for this industry are few and far between, without losing them like this.

Andy will be sorely missed, will he be the last, I doubt it.

Autorotate.

[Bat63]

I think what we need to do is not speculate on this particular accident because at present we don't know exactly what went wrong.
What we should be discussing is why in this day and age there are non-IFR pilots flying around Australia (and the world) in single engine, non-IFR aircraft, single pilot in IFR conditions.
They are flying in NGT VMC conditions but without ground or celestial illumination.
Flying off the coast of Australia with no moon is IFR.

[Autorotate]

Just another rumour that I got via text message from friends in QLD. Apparently, according to Brisbane ATC, the 407 lost height very abdruptly from its cruising alt of 1500 ft to just above sea level in very very quick time, estimates of about five to six seconds.

Those that know the aircraft and its performance capabilties might be able explain what might have caused this. This throws doubts on the pilot error scenario in my opinion.

Autorotate.

[Russ Reilly]

Having flown and trained many pilots in a single engine helicopter over water, at night for the last 7 years. I need to quash the whole "it wouldn't happen in a twin" cr@p. Read the crash comics on the super puma with check and training captains at the wheel? It still hit the water!

From current IFR Twin Captains to guys just obtaining their night ratings, there has been no real difference in how they fly once we get out to the "black" and approach the ship. Evetyone makes the same mistakes.

It all comes down to currency/training. Not the size or number of engines.

RIP Andy & crew.

[Heliport]

ABC News online Scanners to help with helicopter search

High-tech scanning equipment is to be used in the search for vital components of the Rescue helicopter which crashed off the central Queensland coast on Saturday, killing all people three on board.

Investigators are still trying to locate the rotor transmission and engine which separated from the helicopter on impact.

Air Transport Safety Bureau spokesman Alan Stray says an American investigator with extensive underwater recovery experience has flown to Mackay to assist with the salvage operation.

"Our team has been looking at the currents trying to establish where the floating path or the track of the helicopter from the initial impact so between the Australian expert and the American investigator we do hope to locate those components within the next 24 to 48 hours," Mr Stray said.

The bodies of two of the men have been found and a search is continuing for the third man.

[High Nr]

You certainly know how to stop a discussion...............

We in Oz pride ourselves on taking the hard hits, even when we loose our friends under such circumstances.

If you divert this thread, then you will loose the vital input that may save the next crew from the same fate.

In case you are unaware, in this area of Oz, there has been eight fatalities, and the loss of at least five airframes in the last four years.

There is a lot of expertise and information that has yet to surface here..........

Leave it alone, we are all big enough to read and accept the facts [assuming it is fact]...

But I do agree....its far to early to look at pilot error....perhaps we should look at why BHT has despatched their expert on tailrotor failures to the area.

[Heliport]

Never been accused of that before. :eek: I was actually trying to bring more people into the discussion.
I know from experience that many people are very reluctant, out of respect for a deceased pilot, to join in a discussion about possible causes on a thread which reports a crash when the facts aren't known. That's a perfectly reasonable approach, and is why I posted a link to a recent discussion on s/e night VFR which wasn't related to a particular incident.
ie If it turns out to be mechanical failure, it's a bit rough on the memory of the pilot if people assume it was pilot error, even in difficult conditions.

I appreciate your input, will assume it reflects the majority view and delete the link.

Heliport

[Devil 49]

First, I have no idea what happened in this case. In response to the posts touting heavy metal as the answer, I have to agree with Russ Reilly. As long as the aircraft is properly equipped, the pilot is prepared and a realistic plan to accomplish the flight is in place, the number of engines is not material. A good autopilot is a significant advantage over a second engine.

I'm less enthusiastic at the idea of night, over water, single engine. Forced landings to the water are problematic in the day time-I'd hate to try it at night.

Offshore is different. The weather is different, less convective-except when it's more so. The "look" is different. It's hard to explain, but not having a positive visual altitude reference seems to make down an imprecise term- you could be inches or tens of feet up. Look down on your next flight, you'll see the surface whizzing by with a rate of closure difference fore and aft, and as it moves by laterally. That's not as definite a data source over water, at least not with the precision your mark-1 eyeballs are used to interpretting.
Lose your "down" and a horizon, you're IFR. Some days, it could be a thousand feet and it looks like inches until you sight something to reference by scale. If you don't have a well defined horizon, you'll find yourself hunting in pitch before you realise conditions aren't what the numbers present.

[Heliport]

ABC News Online Review urged for helicopter rescue missions

There has been a call for a review into the use of in-flight medical missions in the wake of last Friday's rescue helicopter crash off Mackay which claimed the lives of three men.

Doctors and medical specialists have questioned what they feel is the over use of Air Rescue helicopters and small planes for relatively minor emergencies.

Australian Doctors Fund Queensland chairman, Dr Chris Alroe, says a better risk assessment plan must be implemented to avoid the senseless loss of life.

"It's not good procedure to take single engine helicopters across large bodies of water," he said.

"Alternative means of ground or sea transport should be employed before we take these risks. All of this is causing a degrading of regional health services, what we need to do is rethink the whole process."

[High Nr]

Wait until you know the facts Doc.

What if wasn't an engine failure???? whats your view then Doc?

In all these accidents, not one has been caused by a mechanical Engine Failure.

Lets not get medical people telling aviation people whats required in our aircraft fit.

One, two or three engines arn't going to help if your tail falls off Doc, and sure you are now going to put a person with a broken leg [and yes a fractured leg with Haemodynamic deteriotion can indeed be life threatening], in a bumpy old boat.

Don't change the system, Improve the existing system!

[Scattercat]

And just how exactly do you assess the relative risk between using a modern helicopter (either S/E or M/E) operated by experienced crews, to other forms of transport. Boat / road ambulance etc? Surely they all come to grief at one time or another. Statistics don't tell the whole story.

High Nr
You're correct about the accidents (not commenting on this current one) not being caused by engine failures ... however in some way were't the capabilities of the particular A/C exceeded for the particular task being undertaken? If so this then comes back to a systemic problem and you're right ... we must "improve the system". From appropriate use (tasking) of all assets to providing the appropriate equipment for the job.

[deeper]

Heliport,

Any discussion on night vfr by single pilots should be welcomed, especially those over water.

Maybe then sanity will prevail if all the information is made known.

My personal records are a pretty good indication that standard operating procedures for such flights are in need of major reinforcing.

The defenition of night vfr used to be navigation under visual flight rules with reference to the ground or water. i can't find that defenition anywhere anymore.

Flying into black holes without adequate instruments is flying blind. No matter how good a pilot you may be.

I was once given the opportunity to participate in an FAA demo on vertigo or loss of spatial awareness at John Wayne Airport in Orange County. I died in about thirty seconds with minimum instruments once the work load was increased on me.

These pilots and crew who are no longer with us might still be here if the aircraft they were in were better instrumented and proper training of crew kept up to date. I'm not saying it wasn't in this recent case, nor do i intimate that the pilot was not the most professional.

The recent Central Queensland accident causes have yet to be determined but a long descending left turn into water (the radar track) has all the hallmarks of spatial disorientation.

We have a right to comment as the reputation of our industry is at risk, doctors and nurses are worried, next the patient might refuse to get in.

[Heliport]

deeper

I agree entirely. Far from trying to stop discussion, I was trying to encourage it. The link I deleted, at High Nr's request, was to a discussion we had a few months ago:
Reasons not to fly a VFR only, Single-engined helicopter offshore at night.

It was an excellent discussion with many superb posts. Members who joined after June may not have seen it.
If anyone wants to read it, the link is here. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=91725&referrerid=30158)

[High Nr]

Those words that used to guide pilots in making the harder decisions have indeed been withdrawn from the CASA and Air Services Documents:

But for those of us that fly the B206 series, look on Page One of the Limitations Section of your Flight Manual, under Night Flight Limitations. And remember this is a limitation by the Manufacture.

[NOtimTAMs]

High Nr

"and yes a fractured leg with Haemodynamic deteriotion [sic] can indeed be life threatening" - fine, but a stabilised tibia/fibula fracture in a good splint in an otherwise well young adult is *not* an emergency - I've personally been involved in taking folk out with fractured femurs from remote islands in "bumpy old boats" (yes in traction, yes with IV line in, yes with a nerve block in for the pain) because there was no other way. It's not a no-no.....

There are fractures and there are fractures (....many fractures can wait for a week or so and be still set/treated quite successfully (true!)) and I for one do not pretend to know what type the one in this case was.

But, the fact seems to be that the Hamilton Island pt was evac'd the next morning, and furthermore there was no use that night of other possibly available fixed wing acft from TVL, RK or BUD into a long strip with lights and a GPS and VOR/DME appch on a night that wasn't too crappy for IFR flight. To me that implies that they were were perhaps not dealing with a life/limb threatening event, as the other available agencies would have picked up and filled that tragic gap, as they have done in the past.

Whenever I had to assess a call for assistance in the dark hours, the one of the first questions was - can it wait until daylight? Aircrew are more alert, aeromedical crew are more alert, and the receiving hospital is more likely to have it's "A" team on...all has to be balanced against the pain being suffered and the likelihood of an adverse outcome if there is any delay. On top of this the possible medevac modalities have to be considered, along with their costs and risks, especially added risks of night travel, wheter by air, sea or land. It's not straightforward, there is scant statistical analysis of the relative risks available, but doctors/nurses (and others) who often have to go along on the serious flights have a right to say how their lives are risked or otherwise.

Again, in aeromedical work, sometimes things are done because they can be done, not because they should be done.....yes it's faster, yes it's more exciting, yes it's sexier, yes it has saved lives... and yes it can have grave risks and has a higher cost per life saved than virtually any other medical modality.

Safe flying :ok:

NOtimTAMs

PS And in case you think I'm arguing for twin engine, twin pilot ops for all circumstances-- I'm happy in my private flying time to fly single pilot, single engine IFR at night in an aircraft I know the maintenance history of - but that's my choice, knowing the risks - I wouldn't force that on anyone else.

[High Nr]

Oh Doc, please don't be wise after the event.

This crew were responding to a request for assistance....they normally have no way to verify the judgement or decision to request them.....but we must fix that indeed.

If in fact the Medical Staff called for help without due judgement, then there will be a time for them to justify that call in the future....the more of these faceless people that are vilified [like the pilots always are] in front of the 6 O'Clock news cameras and Coroners Court, then the better our EMS will be.

If this patient was not requiring immeadiate second level care, then there will be more questions asked in the courts in the coming months.

And you can [sic] all you like....your friends arn't dead because of someone else's call....and by your inference, perhaps not justified.

Great. [I will indeed restrain myself]

[NOtimTAMs]

High Nr:confused:

You seem to be making a few assumptions here, too:

a. That I know who made the call (do you? - EMS systems vary)

b. That I'm a medico!

c. That I'm in some way blaming the aircrew!

It's the system, stupid.

All inquiries (coronial and otherwise) into accidents are about being "wise after the event". The *observation* made about the non-dispatch of fixed-wing has nothing to do with hindsight, however.

Read my first posts on this - you're not the only one to lose friends and colleagues, although it's understandably hard to keep emotion in check at times like these. Cool it - there are others who share in your sorrow and don't want to see events repeated.:(

NOTAM'ed

[Avnx EO]

All... I don't want to speculate on this particular accident... but the discussion about VFR night flight with little visual reference is very relevant. I don't think a lot of people appreciate the illusions that come into play during night VFR flying. Over DFW, and other highly populated areas, it's fairly easy to distinguish sky from ground at night. Same is true over completely unpopulated, dry ground, on a clear, starlit night. But I did my flight training in eastern Canada. Canada requires 5 hours of hood training to gain a night rating - for good reason. I was surprised, even when just outside the Ottawa area, how easy it is to lose your horizon. Reflections of stars from lakes and rivers, sparsely distributed ground lights that look like stars, combined with some cloud cover that can make areas of the sky look like ground, can easily conspire to turn the world up-side-down. I was lucky my instructor was one of the top Human Factors people in the business (Bob K.) and he gave me some great lessons on this.

I also don't think people understand how the current certification regulations stack against giving helicopters a better chance in these circumstances. There has been a lot of work in the FAR Part 23 (light airplane) world to lower the barriers to allow better technology in the cockpit. The Part 23 folks have recognized that "loss of situational awareness" kills way more pilots than misleading equipment and displays, yet the certification requirements for equipment and software keep going up, and the overall safety record keeps going down. Raising the bar on equipment is just not working.

For the most part, "complex" systems (ie: those with processors, software, and complex architectures) have to be certified via the air transport regs (AC25-1309 which leads to ARP4760, ARP-4754 and DO-178B for methods of compliance) Other directorates have simply adopted the Part 25 practice for complex systems, and so for primary flight instruments, the requirements look more like what you'd need in a 747 rather than a 407. That's why steam gauges live on.

The Part 23 folks (light fixed-wing aircraft) were the first to depart from air transport standards with AC23-1309-1C. They have proved their theory through the CAPSTONE project where new the technology (intuitive, synthetic vision displays, that don’t require the continuous currency training and mental gymnastics to interpret) were put in VFR aircraft. The result over the first two years of the study in Alaska (lots of water, lots of night, lots of VFR in near IMC, lots of stuff to run in to) was a 40% reduction in fatal accidents.

As a result of this Part 23 work we are seeing the new MFD flight screens from Avidyne, Garmin, Chelton(ex Sierra), Universal and the like that cost 1/4 of the heavy iron stuff. It's now going into the basic, fixed wing aircraft such as the Cessna 182, Mustang, Cirrus, etc.

Yet the technology barriers for Helicopters remain high. The big issue for Helicopter IFR is stability. Fixed wing aircraft tend to right themselves, most helicopters don’t. So in near IMC conditions, the helicopter pilot cannot afford to momentarily divert his attention (to retrieve a chart or similar) for fear to find the dirty side is no longer pointing down. The specific requirements for helicopter stability for IFR certification are detailed in Appendix B of FAR Part 27. Other than a few models (e.g. some Bell 206 models) few helicopters can meet the requirements without SAS or SCAS. With today’s technology, SAS or SCAS could be made cheaply. But now come the regulations.... Appendix B goes on to say that if a SAS is used to achieve that performance, then failure of the SAS has to be “extremely improbable”. The AC25-1309 interpretation of “extremely improbable” drives you to a triplex system and “level-A” software. For the most part, the certification authorities have accepted a dual system with “level-A” software, but that is because “they have cut us a break.” The DGAC noted in a recent meeting that they have been taking the more stringent interpretation of “extremely improbable” on recent certifications, and I suspect that is what led to the almost triplex implementation in the EC-135. So per the regulation, you either require nothing – if your aircraft is inherently stable, or you require duplex or triplex, level-A SAS (with dual hydraulics, etc). There’s no in between.

The point is that VFR helicopters would be safer in near IMC conditions if they were made more stable. They could be more stable if they had SAS. The bean counters don’t want to pay for SAS unless they get some kind of credit (i.e. IFR capable aircraft). For IFR credit, the regs require you meet “extremely improbable”, which means a high cost /redundant system. And so, the market for low-cost, VFR-only, SAS is soft. As a result, nothing gets done for light VFR helicopters. And accidents, such as possibly this one, continue to happen.

We need the same kind of thinking that went into the new Part 23 to be applied to Part 27. In the mean time, hold on... and good luck keeping the dirty side down.

[200psi]

The whole situation makes me wonder about the training and protocols used by the tasking authority when it comes to these retrievals. What are the checks and balances in place for the medical authority responsible? The EMS community have their own go/no go requirements but as they are not told of the circumstances regarding the patient they rely implicitly on the sound judgement and risk assessment procedures in place at the requesting/tasking end of the process. If these processes are not sound or non existent then the EMS crew is being set up.

EMS operators do great work and have on many occasions been able to carryout tasks beyond what is generally required by the supported service. Perhaps this high level of success leads to a level of complacency within the tasking authority and they begin to think along the lines of its been done before it can be done again, and task the EMS agency beyond what it is technically able to perform. Perhaps tasking agencies get lazy and just opt for the admministratively/operationaly easiest option for them. This is why they need ironclad risk assessment procedures in place and people trained with detailed knowledge and understanding of the capabilities of the asset they are about to task.

Only the Medical service responsible for the callout really knows if they rigidly adhered to their procedures, but on face value and with the luxury of hindsight a lower risk alternative should have been utilised.

[Shawn Coyle]

It's actually slightly worse than we may realize.
First is there is no requirement in the certification rules for an attitude indicator in a Part 27 helicopter for even night flying. (Read Part 27 if you don't believe me), and check what the baseline, absolute bare bones equipment is that comes with most light helicopters - attitude indicator is an optional extra.
How can we allow this?
Second is the definition of VFR- it probably has been hammered at before, but it states something about navigation and orientation of the aircraft by use of visual references. At night, regardless of the visibility, if you're over the water or unpopulated territory, you can't really orient the aircraft by use of visual reference.
What do the insurance companies think about this? Might be good to have them consider an attitude indicator minimum equipment, and night flying as IFR, unless you are going to be staying over downtown.

[Mark Slade]

R.I.P. Andy Carpenter

[Mars]

Shawn:

Where there is a defficiency in the Certification Standard, it is for the Operational Rules to prescribe. We cannot rely upon our Airworthiness colleagues as their world is dominated by the manufacturers.

This is clearly dealt with in most Operational Codes (ICAO and JARs both require the appropriate Standards for Night - FAR 135.159 does not require it for helicopter below 6000lbs (why?)). It is also rumoured that the US would like to revise the International Standards (ICAO) in line with FARs (why?).

For the requirement for flying in Night VFR, the FARs deal with this much better than other codes - they at least require suitable references135.207 VFR: Helicopter surface reference requirements.

No person may operate a helicopter under VFR unless that person has visual surface reference or, at night, visual surface light reference, sufficient to safely control the helicopter.Why rely upon the insurance companies - can't we regulate our own industry?

[High Nr]

Has the Tail Rotor Assembly been found??

And if it has, has it been established as to its location in reference to the point of impact?

[zalt]

Mars wrote: "We cannot rely upon our Airworthiness colleagues as their world is dominated by the manufacturers."

I do find the attitude of helicopter manufacturers deplorable (eg "the 'men in grey suits' will do as they are told and issue a TC"). F/JAR29 is meanwhile an incredibly archaic code, that is probably worse than UK (say) had 10 years ago (and its gut wrenching to hear manufacturers crowing that they meet the latest requirement when they 'negotiated' the F/JAR standard to the lowest common denominator).

The ops community however has is faults. In the helicopter world they are far too keen to follow on the coat tails of the oil companies with requirements that apply to oil and gas operations, while avoiding the onshore market that doesn't have that influence.

The JAR-OPS Flight Safety & Accident Prevention Programme is a joke - most authorities only apply it as rule that gives an excuse to employ a nearly-retired pilot to learn how file safety reports. Its not a patch on the SMS approach that most of the oil comapany majors now require and still doesn't include even basic things like health monitoring programmes.

You only have to look at a recent CAA Flight Ops missive to show how confused regulators can be. That document had three sets of 'recommendations' following 2 recent helicopter accidents. One just suggests operators should 'consider' doing something. One suggests that though certain operators are not required to do something they should discharge a 'duty of care' over the issue and effectively do it some of the time, and the third says operators should 'review' an issue by a specific date.

[S76Heavy]

It is my understanding that in the UK a company and its CEO can be held responsible for corporate manslaughter if an accident occurs and it can be proven that the company did not take enough action to reduce the risks as much as is reasonably practical. The company will apparently have to produce evidence that states that it did consider the risks and the cost of reducing the risk and the residual risk and danger.

That seems quite a large stick to get companies moving in the direction of safer operations, as the CEO can actually end up in jail after an accident with a company helicopter. That will help against the grey suit syndrome.

[zalt]

S76Heavy There have been difficulties with actually applying this in practice (eg Herald of Free Enterprise). And certainly all the cases in the UK have been against 'operators' or 'maintainers' never against an OEM.

Even when a problem is known about, compliance times for any necessary AD are agreed with CAA/FAA etc, so if another accident occurs before the fleet is fixed the OEM can point at the aviation authority and claim the timescales were government approved.

But I hope you are right!

[deeper]

Any speculation into the 407 accident near Mackay may be put to rest very soon.

Don't be surprised to hear the words " massive component failure" from the ATSB by monday.

Most of the aircraft has been recovered less the engine and tail rotor so far. The main rotor system and trannie have been found.

[Autorotate]

Dont be so sure. I spoke to my sources and they said that their opinion is that is a case of Spatial Disorientation and that Andy got a case of the "leans".

ATC tracking seems to back up their theories from what I am told but time will tell. I knew Andy and would be the last to say its pilot error, but I also trust my sources and they do accident investigation as a business.

I hope your theory is right but lets wait and see. One of us should be on the right track.



:E

[John Eacott]

Autorotate,

It may be a good time to remove the "evil grin" as your signature. It isn't always a good/relevant response to some of the threads/posts that you make.

Just MHO.

[crusty scab]

DEEPER, the quotation in your latest post dosen't quite match your initial assesment of the cause - made whilst a search was still underway. What is it mate, you just like to be first with the gossip?

CS

[trimpot]

John and crusty,

I couldn't agree more. It would seem that this type of thing brings out the worst in people and I think these ghouls need to take a long, hard look at themselves.

[M/V]

Autorotate, Don't you think it's a tad un-ethical for your `sources' to be disclosing their `hunch' to you so you can blurt out it out on the www?
Until the report is complete (when all the components are located & inspected), it is pure speculation that the pilot suffered the `leans'. How would your source really know that Spatial Disorientation' was the case?
You astound me, your posts tell us how good a fellow this Andy Carpenter was and yet you are very willing to speculate and discredit a dead man. Nice one, friends like you, who needs enemies? Get a life. Let the investigation run its course, I'm sure your text-message buddy will let you know the outcome as soon as he can.

[Autorotate]

Deeper can say that something could be announced about major component failure and you say nothing. I make my comment and you insult me, certainly double standards there sunshine. First off I mentioned to my contact I was going to post his Opinion, not facts, but opinion, and he was happy with that.

Saying that it could be spatial disorientation is not discrediting Andy, its saying what caused the accident. I have since spoken to guys with many thousands of hours more than Andy who admit they have also had cases of the leans, so it can happen to anyone.

And with regards to your personal insults, simple, shove them up your ass. Have a nice day.

:E

[S76Heavy]

I agree with Autorotate, every pilot has made mistakes and will make more. I certainly had my hairy moments, I'm not too proud to admit. Even birds make mistakes sometimes.

We all try to avoid the fatal one, and we have to put ourselves in a position where we are less likely to make that fatal mistake. For we're all human, and humans will fail.
We should therefore have proper redundancy in either crew, equipment or both for the missions at hand. From what I read about this mission, there was not. Perhaps it did not cause the accident, but it surely contributed to the workload.

[407 Driver]

I certainly see some double standards being displayed here, "Deeper" can go out on a limb with that slanderous statement against Bell, whereas Autorotate can not also offer up his thoughts even with the covering statement "I hope your theory is right but lets wait and see".

Nice bunch here ! , well posted Autorotate.

[Nigel Osborn]

Boy, you guys can sure get heated about a tragic accident such as this one.

Think about it. All accidents are caused by either human failure (pilot or ginger beer) or mechanical failure. By definition very few accidents are deliberately caused. Before trying to outguess from your armchair from miles away, wouldn't it be better to see what the investigators discover?

I did not know Andy as I left that company before he joined. I spent 10 years with that company during which I helped with some check & training and also received plenty. I have no doubt that Andy would not have been let loose if the check pilots had doubts about his ability. Of course the helicopter could have had better equipment such as a sas system or more instruments but you can be sure it met the Australian requirements for that flight. If the Australian requirements should be changed, then that is another arguement.

Pilots can and do get the leans or make mistakes or get taken suddenly ill. Helicopters can develope numerous problems with very little warning and these can be extremely difficult to sort out on a black night.

So let's hang in there and see what is discovered.:confused:

[sprocket]

A major salvage operation is expected to begin today off Cape Hillsborough in north Queensland after divers yesterday found "significant parts" of the crashed Central Queensland Rescue Helicopter.

The wreckage site has been clearly marked in preparation for today's retrieval efforts.

Alan Stray from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau says today could be a "red letter" day for the lengthy salvage operation, which began after the chopper crashed on October 17.

"First thing today they will be working on bringing them to the surface," he said.

"We believe that they are the major components that we've been looking for to determine whether there was a mechanical problem with the helicopter."

LINK (http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/qld/mackay/regmky-31oct2003-4.htm)

Although not mentioned here, local paper has reported that the engine has been recovered.



This from 30th Oct. (2 days ago)
Investigators have found a key part of the Central Queensland Rescue Helicopter that crashed on October 17 off Cape Hillsborough in north Queensland.

The chopper's tail rotor gearbox was retrieved from the sea floor off Cape Hillsborough yesterday afternoon.

Police divers and a trawler will continue to scour the wreckage site today, in renewed hope of locating the engine and remaining parts of the damaged helicopter.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau's Alan Stray says investigators are buoyed by the discovery.

"We are now confident we have the site of the impact," he said.

"Hopefully it's only a matter of time before the team can recover the engine and other major components we're looking for."

LINK (http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/qld/mackay/regmky-30oct2003-2.htm)

[overpitched]

I notice that every time an EMS machine goes down or performs some mirraculous rescue almost anywhere in the world there is always a heated debate on this forum about whether the aircraft actually needed to do the job or was there some other way etc etc ????

Surely nearly every time most of us fly there would be some other way to accomplish the required task ???

I'm sure that it is not very often that when a helicopter lifts off it absolutely positively is the only way to get the job done ??

Sure .. if you don't think its safe don't go. But if we all waited until all other options had been exhausted then we wouldn't do much flying.

[High Nr]

Mate its now Friday......and your newsflash has not arrived?????

[Time Out]

Govt waits results of CASA review into chopper crash
Thursday, 13 November 2003

The Queensland Government will wait for a report from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) before making any decision on Queensland's Air Rescue operations following the fatal crash of a Central Queensland Rescue Helicopter.

An Australian Transport Safety Bureau preliminary report into last month's accident which claimed the lives of emergency service personell off the coast of Mackay has suggested a review of the requirements for visual operations at night.

The exact cause of the accident is still not known but air safety investigators have identified a serious safety deficiency relating to visual contact by pilots during night flights.

State Emergency Services Minister Mike Reynolds says it will be premature to act before CASA has completed its review.

"There would be no hesitation on our part to always be sure to following the CASA guidelines," Mr Reynolds said.

ABC Qld (http://www.abc.net.au/queensland/news/200311/s987944.htm)

The ATSB preliminary report was the subject of a separate thread (407 at mackay - by imabell) - direct link being here (http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=547)

Also noticed:

Rescue choppers back after tragedy
Tuesday, 11 November 2003

It is likely to be some time before the board of the Central Queensland Rescue Helicopter committee decides on its permanent replacement.

The service's back-up chopper conducted its first official medivac mission yesterday, which officials say is a definite milestone for the crew.

Colleagues are still coming to terms with the loss of three men, who were killed in last month's tragedy at Cape Hillsborough off the north Queensland coast.

Tony Shields from CQ Rescue says there was mixed emotions from the crew doing the mission.

"It was the proof that we are back and operating, that we're providing a service to community...the crew is fine, back on-line, hats off to them - they've done a marvellous job," he said.

Source (http://www.abc.net.au/tropic/news/200311/s986770.htm)

[Wallaby]

Its all about acceptable risk. Flying over water at night in an unstabilised single is not acceptable risk. We all want to do the job but there are times when we must consider our limited capabilities and explore all other options.

Wallaby

[Too Cloudy]

SA 365 C1 from Victoria will be winging it's way up there shortly.

[High Nr]

Queensland is far to experienced to accept that 25 year old airframes[s] are not just being dumped on them.

[trimpot]

We'll see won't we :cool:

[trimpot]

I believe they are starting the training on the C models in the next few days:eek:

[Nigel Osborn]

An ex Surf pilot has now been endorsed on the 365.:rolleyes:

[John Eacott]

Here it is, freshly painted and being fuelled ready for ferry as of 19:00 today :ok:

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/365N.jpg

[Sarbe]

High Nr
Seems as though Trimpot has aced you again. :ouch:

[Autorotate]

Amazing that they would accept that recycled dinosaur.

Suppose CHC OZ have to unload their crap somewhere. Love to hear the feedback from those who used to fly the 407 when they get into this thing.

Autorotate.

[SawThe Light]

Cranking up a surplus C1 would appear to be a fine example of living within a budget and getting best out of the bucks available.

STL

[High Nr]

Oh Dung Flung, you have to be joking!!!

The C model Dauphin is a very good SAR/EMS machine

The only reason “They in QLD” are getting this aircraft is that it’s been dumped by every other Operator and Client in Australia. Remember this airframe has been mothballed for many years because it does not conform.

The Victoria Government, South Australian Government and the Western Australian Government have laid down Exacting Specifications for helicopters involved in SAR / EMS.

And you if you are so experienced, you will immediately realise that the 365C fails miserably in around 80% of these specifications.

Great Stuff boys, lets dump it on those hillbillies in Queensland, they won’t know the difference, after all it has a new paint job which will attach those sponsorship $$$’s.

But yes, it’s better than a VFR 407, but not much, at its very limited with no Flight Director or Approach Capture, very basic IFR [as you would know].

Let’s hope a different culture is injected as well, or this move will also end in another disaster.

[High Nr]

Gee Whiz, Mr. Trimpot, what a vulgar mouth!!!

It’s the same foul mouth that got you sacked [fired] from within a well known Canadian Owned Helicopter Company operating in Australia.

Some things never change!!



Dungflug: If your company can’t keep an EP’s serviceability above that of the 365, then mate you should quickly change companies.
I hope you are not comparing the operational capacity/capability of a 365 verses an EP???

Lismore as you know would dearly love to upgrade to something more modern and capable, but $$$ is tight.
And yes the Vic Ambulance, and the Sydney based EMS operators all dumped their 365’s, wonder where they are now?

[200psi]

I think everyone has missed the most pertinant point here and that is the QLD govt have ruled that there will be no single engine heli ops by night involving govt type contracts which obviously includes health dept personel. CQRESQ had know where to go they either gave up on night work and tried to sell a lesser service to the community or try and comply with new regulations and bring the service upto and a bit beyond what they where doing before, and sell this to the community. I would have thought the latter would be a preferable option.

Remember they have only a finite funding base to work from and quite frankly do a good job given the financial constraints. They are making a tremendous effort to get back on their feet in all facets of the operation. It dissapoints me that individuals in the industry have lost sight of what was really lost up there.

I suggest before you throw stones at CHC or CQRESQ or the Mackay community you think about how your comments may effect the family, friends and work mates who may read the petty squabling and one upmanship that is going on here.

To the moderator I suggest you end this thread.

[Autorotate]

200psi - I merely made my opinion known, same as everyone else here does. If Trimpot has an issue with that, then thats his problem.

Anyway, thats my two cents worth.

Autorotate.

[High Nr]

You may have made your point, but you have totally missed mine.

CQRESQ should have better, not a 25+ year non conforming [elsewhere in OZ] airframe that has been "Sold" to them.

200 PSI, don't go trying to close a thread, just because you don't like what is being debated, grow up.

I rest my case.

[Autorotate]

Flungdung - So obviously according to you I am not allowed to have an opinion. I have been involved in this industry more than some of the posters here and get to see things from all corners of the globe, so why shouldnt I input my two cents worth. I got my PPL in helos some years ago and just because I dont have thousands of hours and a CPL or ATPL doesnt mean my opinion doesnt matter. In fact being in my position where I can watch various operations worldwide actually gives me the advantage of being able to compare apples with apples. Look at some of the other posts on this forum, and you say mine arent worth two cents???.

Secondly I dont see where I threatened to leave the forum. Trimpot wanted to make it personal by making the comments he did, then so be it, but he sure as heck can receive it if he wants to dish it out.

Yes I am arrogant outspoken SOB but thats life and will continue to be so. So bottom line, in my opinion, my opinion matters, if you dont think so then so be it. But if people like Trimpot want to attack me then I sure as heck am going to fight back.

Again just my two cents worth.

Autorotate.

[200psi]

High Nr

You made the point that the Lismore guys would dearly love to move on from the 365 but the $$$ are tight. Don't you think, as I have said, the same applies to CQRESQ. I bet a EC135 would be terriffic but what community based service provider could afford that. Whilst the 365 is dated at least it meets QLD govt specs for night work and was close at hand and affordable by CQRESQ. It wont operate IFR but night VFR as per current requirements.

My reason for concern regarding the direction this thread was heading was due to the level of subjective comment and reactive comment being made which dosn't lend itself to a rational debate based on fact. I have not refered to or been personnaly critical of anyone in particular so I will leave the growing up to those disposed to monosylabic adjectives.

[Autorotate]

So out of all the EMS programs in Australia how many are VFR operations and how many are IFR operations, and that includes the RAAF SAR S-76s.

Everyone has said how important it is that they are getting a twin but can you explain how that relates to the actual cause of the accident if it was some sort of spatial disorientation. Would it still have happened if it had been a twin.

Autorotate.

[maintranschip]

Trimpot, check PM

[trimpot]

I have deleted the offending post.

I'm sure CQRESQ could have had another 407 but they really need a twin and for the money the 365 was a good (and probably the only) choice. Bit of a moot point really as that is what they have got.

Lets hope it leads to a newer machine in the future.

I do love a spirited debate, but maybe 200psi is right about giving it a rest out of respect to the crews and families.

[Autorotate]

Likewise I have deleted my response. Doesnt do much good for the thread.

I got an email from Andy Carpenters parents a couple of weeks ago and out of respect for them and his fellow workmates will let it rest.

Autorotate.

[Red Wine]

I think the salient point here is that 24/7 EMS/SAR operations should be full Dual/SP IFR.

The point in my view is not a multi vs single, but more VFR verses IFR.

And of course IFR will win every time.

[helmet fire]

I posted a while back that when an accident occurs there should be two threads set up - one for those who wish to express their sympathy and concerns, and another to freely debate the accident in order to gain as many possible lessons out of it without offending people connected to the accident.

It looks like this accident could use two threads!

I find it absolutely amazing that, although the cause of the accident has yet to be determined, the QLD government have said that there will no longer be single engine ops on govt contracts at night. Blimey. Is that really true? Who is the expert that they took that advice from? How can a govt department be allowed to react so subjectively and so emotively?

Lastly - I note the complete absence of arguements for NVG. Why do we continue to send out competent pilots like this with one hand tied behind his back? Lets do the maths - NVG upgrade to 407 Vs acquisition and running costs of a multi engine that (unless equiped with an autopilot) does not improve anything about night flying stability/ability. Why not spend the money so he can SEE instead?

Perhaps questions need to be directed to CASA as to why this flight was not equipped with NVG - it has been around for 10 plus years in civilian EMS.

[Red Wine]

Well said....100% behind you.

And with your words of wisdom you have just identified yourself......I spoke to you at the meeting.!!!

Yes, why indeed was this, and other perfectly disciplined operations around the country, not equipped with NVG’s??

Believe it or not, CASA is presently laying out the legislation to allow civil NVG operations……it will be presented in the form of a CAAP, so operators can expand that into their Operations Manual….expect something within six months.

Giving the extreme limitation of IFR operations in EMS / SAR, together with the dangers of undertaking the same in a VMC scenario, NVG’s can be a perfect alternative.

[maintranschip]

Red Wine, Do you mean to say that CASA has actually got their head out of the sand and considered NVG's. Are you sure, how do you know this is the case. I hate to sound like I don't believe you, but that brick wall had seemed almost unpenetrable. I do hope it wasn't someones demise that acted as the smelling salts, that would be one hell of a shame.

[Time Out]

ATSB Interim report here (http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=547)

[Hughesy]

No disrespect meant, but has Andy's body been recovered?