Possible ATR 42 and 72 sales in OZ

[FL CH]

It appears ATR may finally crack the Australian regional market (again). Their last sales in OZ were in the early 80's with Air Queensland ordering 4 ATR42's. In the end only 2 arrived and they were only here for a short time.

There are four airlines who are currently looking at new types. The airlines are Qantaslink (Easten and Sunstate),Mac-air, REX and Sunshine Express. Although Qantaslink are looking at the ATR72 they may also take a few ATR42's. Mac-air and REX are looking at the ATR72 while Sunshine Express are looking at the ATR42. The Qantaslink aircraft would be a mix of new and old aircaft, while the other three airlines are looking at older second hand aircraft ie ATR72-210's and ATR42-300's.

The biggest hurdle ATR have faced to date has been the Australian regulations regarding HCRPT and LCRPT, with anyone operating aircraft seating 38 or more requiring an HC AOC. With the new CASR's this will not be the case so regionals such as Mac-air and REX plus large charter companies ie Skippers will be able to operate aircraft larger than Dash8-100/200's.

[Pimp Daddy]

Qantaslink ain't going to roll over the entire Dash fleet for the plastic fantastic.

They will be staying with the Dash 8.

[apacau]

And Rex will probably opt for the Saab 2000. Why go for the even larger ATR72?

[Balanced Moment]

If REX is looking at the ATR is hasn't moved any further than looking at a brochure.

[Byjingo]

If they're going to look at older 42's at least go for the 320, much better than the 300 in hot conditions, better payload and more importantly better aircon.
If I was the bean counter I'd look very closely at the benefits of getting a 500, either 42 or 72, they may cost more to lease however the increased payload, speed and passenger appeal and decreased operating costs, ie fuel consumption and maintainance, would make the 500 very appealing.

I don't know how many seats the Saab 2000 has, but I know the 72 with 66 seats is very comfortable and has great short feild performance even up to 40'c.

[Eurocap]

The 72-500 will make money, the 42-500 may make money, but anything else will have to be subsidised.
:ok: :ok:

[Chris Higgins]

Having flown both, I can say, without a doubt that the ATR is the Piper Tomahawk of the regional airliners. It was the biggest piece of junk I've ever flown in my life! Always broken down and it had terrible second segment in hot weather.

Admittedly, these were early models, but buy putting on larger engines, there's goes any cost benefit. Stay with the Dash-8s!

[Eurocap]

Dash 8's break down just as much as ATR's. Fact of life, modern avionics are the source of most breakdowns due to light construction of electrical circuits to keep weight to a minimum. Doesn't matter which type, they all have the same problem.

[Hugh Jarse]

The fleet replacement program for Qantaslink has been approved and it won't be ATR's, as Pimp Daddy wrote.

[kiwipilot02]

Mount Cook Airlines ATR72 ZK-MCB has the nick name of M C Broken Noticed more broken ATRs over the last couple weeks (propbrake, engine start problems), but I suppose all a/c breakdown at some stage.

[Chris Higgins]

Inadequate airconditioning systems, inadequate reliability of all cabin and galley items, too slow in this age, plastic mainspar is too rigid, inadequate second stage performance, baggage floor is constructed of material that is too thin, no APU, prop brake eventually burns up right engine, spare parts are expensive and sometimes hard to get when you're AOG.....apart from that it's fine.

[kiwilad]

kiwipilot02 interesting to hear that about MCB the atr is very reliable, like all aircraft it goes thru stages where we have a run of breakdowns. Things were going great in sept, just the last week or two things have been happening. Saying the igniters are unreliable is a bit rich they have two and won't go for ever. I wouldn't of thought that was a huge unreliability problem. dispatch is in the high 90's it carries a good load 66pax full bags still able to carry fuel for 2hour sector and a decent alt, 270-280tas burning around 650-750kgs hr.
Haven't flown the dash but I wouldn't think that the dash in any version gets close to the running cost of the atr72-500, with all things considered.

[apacau]

Hugh, would you care to elaborate?? Are we talking DH4s?

I tried emailing you but you have obviously changed your address.

[The Stooge]

Kiwilad, 270-280 kts on the lower end is only about 4 kts on a
A model SAAB and and the B model is on parr with the upper end:ok:

[kiwilad]

stooge I don't disagree, but the saab only carries 33, with it blocked out on some routes (nz) to 29 due to restrictions, temp, rwy length. The atr also gets restricted but when the temp gets up round the high 20's, it normally takes quite a restriction 500-1000kgs before that affects the ability to carry payload, this can usually be circumnavigated by not carrying return gas.
stooge what is the power to weight ratio of the saab a and b? and its average burn for 1hrs sector??

[The Stooge]

Kiwiland

The Saab A is about is about 1700shp and the B is about 1900shp and TOW's are 12700kg for the A and 13155kg for the B and they both block at 1000lbs per hour.

[Walf]

Prey that you don't get the ATR72-212. Yes it is efficient and carries 64 pax...

But it handles like an absolute pig...

The ailerons are heavy with a lot of slop in the central position

The constant act of trimming with differing speeds, angles of bank and power settings is tedious ( The yaw damper is a piece o'crud that delays any input from the trim tab making trimming a waiting/guessing game)

There is quite some lag in the torque leading to a little over controlling

It is not enjoyable.

(All our crew lovingly remember the Dash8... many a wish sigh is heard whenever one passes)

Handling aside, they do have huge problems with gremlins... everyday is something new and annoying

On the plus, they have a good FMS and auto torque system ( Cant remember the proper name for it) These make it bearable...

This is just my opinion of course... maybe I need to practice my handling?:ugh:

[kiwilad]

thank you stooge
the saab has a better power to weight ratio than the atr.
walf
the atr is designed in the airbus concept to fly a to b most cost effectively. i hear all the time how good the dash was, and the 146 they may of been great aircraft but not the right aircraft for these conditions. i.e 146 vs 737, dash 2/3/400 vs atr.
With regards to the controlability of the atr I think it is great, the only thing I know but it certaintly is a versatile machine. It seems to handle wellington well, even at its worst.
cheers

[Eurocap]

Walf,

Being efficient and carrying, in your case, 64 pax is whats keeping you in a job. Alas the Dash 8 couldn't do that for you.
:rolleyes: :D :O