The Concorde thread (Don't start a separate one!)

[G-ALAN]

Why did BA and AF line the fuel tanks with Kevlar? I mean surely a piece of tyre striking the fuel tank of ANY aircraft would cause the tank to rupture. It was just unfortunate that Concorde, such a high profile aircraft, was the next in line for T/O after the Continental A/C which apparently shed the metal. The same thing would have happened if it was a 737. Would all 73 operaters in the world then ground their fleet of 73's then line the fuel tanks with Kevlar? nah I don't think they would. IMHO it was just a case of Concorde being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[digidave]

DamienB,

As always - superb!

Where did they put you in the end? I've got pictures (still on the 35mm film) of a poor stills photog. up a cherry picker, was that you?

dd

[Buster the Bear]

A good home for the Lotto (Lottery) income should be to keep a British treasure airworthy LONG-TERM!

[Douglas Bader]

Well Gerard old boy if you want to start a reclaim campaign I'm in and so are the rest of my Squadron.

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Looks to me, from the wobbly video, as if the first officer was the handling pilot on the JFK 31L Canarsie departure. No doubt MB would want to do the LHR landing, but what a wonderful thing for that first officer to have done the last ever Concorde Canarsie ... the subject of all the palaver, all those years ago.

[DamienB]

Thanks for the comments peeps. digidave - no, wasn't me - wish it had been, might have had less trees and lamp posts to put up with - media grandstand wasn't nearly high enough (and wasn't the rooftop inside the airport originally promised but don't get me started!).

[ABO944]

Couldn't agree more about the Lottery coughing up the dough!!

Instead of buying new trumpets for brass bands throughout the UK, keep Concorde flying!

After all, its public money and we do own them really!!

No offence to brass bands .. its not your fault !

Seabass xx

[carlos vandango]

if BA don't want to run it anymore, they should at least give it to sombody who will try. There must be enough spares/aircraft to keep at least 2 running?
BA are not acting in the national interest here and that's a disgrace for a what used to be the nation's flag carrier.:(

[hobie]

DB .... great photos ...

many thanks for sharing them ....

cheers ... hobie ....

[Rugz]

Looks like Sky have in cockpit footage of todays takeoff from JFK and arrival at LHR !! Its on the concorde screen on Sky News Active.

Great stuff, but very sad (with a tinge of anger that its come to this to be honest).

Hoping tomorrow that I will wake up and it'll all have just been a bad dream....

[Daifly]

Really sad day, but made a little happier by being able to watch a room full of 40+ year old pilots acting like little kids when someone saw her outbound from OCK...! Good to look up at Farnborough Tower too and see the Controller on a chair with the binoculars! Can't think the same is going to happen when the last 747 retires - and therein lies the whole reason why it didn't really make it as a financial success. The envy of the Yanks...

Entertaining to watch the TV then with said pilots and to hear a hearty laugh when the Beeb's Jon Soper asked if the fact that the landing gear was down meant it was going to land! John Hutchinson - cracking to see him back on TV and good that he had the guts to say what he thought rather than what they'd have liked him to say. Raymond Baxter - the man's a God, nice touch having him there when he reported on the first flight.

And the slight bounce? Well, as John Hutchinson said "Oh, nasty gust of wind" - 10/10 for comedy timing if nothing else!!

Thanks for being the reason I wanted to work in Aviation and I'm going to miss you.

[6000PIC]

Nicely done chaps,
...let`s hope this event will someday be remembered for what it really is , success with failure , failure with success. BA should be commended for their classy exit from the supersonic club , true British style , without the fireworks and hoopla of an American " version ". Great airmanship.
It`s nice to see support for supersonic flight is alive , even if it it`s not well right now. Until cheap , Southwest , Ryanair- like intercontinental travel is available for the masses , I`m afraid this wonderful mode of transport will remain on the hard drives of university aerodynamicist students.

[reverserunlocked]

The Concorde documentary on Discovery Wings channel tonight was quite interesting, and showed up just how mightily shafted the old girl was during her life...shafted by:

- the Yanks and all their whingeing over noise, when really they simply couldn't get over the fact that we built one that worked perfectly and they couldn't..

- a crappily maintained, clapped out Continental DC-10..

- the spineless French who couldn't wait to see the back of her..

and then the final nail

- osama bl**dy bin laden..

We're told that the bloated, ungainly A380 is the future of our skies and that the sleek beauty of Concorde is now the past. To me that sounds rather like Ringo Starr swapping Barbara Bach for Lisa Riley..... :ugh:

[DubTrub]

I thought this might be a thread on the Edinburg Concorde (the first to land) whereby the F/O bounced the landing!

[Stand 22]

You never really know what you've got until its gone do you. I always believed it would be 20 or so years before this day came, so no one was going to stop me being at the end of EGCC's B pier on Wednesday. And although it makes me sad, even angry, that yet another piece of British (and French) aviation genius is consigned to the history books, I can still feel proud that we did it. Proud that for the last quarter of a century, Britain has been at the very top of the aviation tree thanks to one aircraft.

She was conceived ahead of her time, built ahead of her time and retired ahead of her time. There is no other aircraft like her. There never will be again


http://www.flightsimnetwork.com/dcforum/User_files/3f997dd67a8a81a9.jpg

http://www.flightsimnetwork.com/dcforum/User_files/3f997de17a92c4e4.jpg

[APG]

G-BOAE
http://mysite.freeserve.com/apglarger/Conc/g-boaf-egll-241003lhr.jpg
G-BOAF
http://mysite.freeserve.com/apglarger/Conc/g-boaf-egll-2410003-1lhr.jpg
G-BOAF and G-BOAG
http://mysite.freeserve.com/apglarger/Conc/g-boaf-g-boag-egll-lhr.jpg

Cheers

Paul

[EGCC4284]

My photos at Manchester 22nd October 2003



http://groups.msn.com/LatinFlyersAirportBar/concordesvisittoegcc.msnw

[paulo]

What a day.

I had breakfast with thirty or forty concorde fans.

I sat underneath the Edinburgh departure.

I did the trek, berlimey, to get round for the Bay jolly.

I stood by the grandstand when work phoned "We can see you on telly!"

I answered a million phone calls. Every one about Concorde.

I watched the first one bounce.

I saw the fire salute.

I just missed the crossings. Just.

I stood in the car park by the hangar. And there they were. And that was it.

Except you can swap all of the above.

I?

Tens of thousands of us did some of that.

Gobsmacking.

[yachtpilot]

Can anyone in the advertising world tell us what Concorde was worth to BA ..... BA spend goodness knows how many millions each year on naff ads that we all do our best to ignore yet each time this aircraft flew over, several million pairs of eyes would look skywards and see the BA markings...and enjoy the experience...how did the bean counters rationalise this one ?

[finfly1]

It was a litle emotional on this side of the pond this morning as well. Four of us woke at 4AM and drove the fifty miles to stand by Jamaica Bay and watch the sun rise behind JFK tower and listen to the crew of AG saying farewell to the tower for the last time. Then the sight of that wonderful profile on her way home .... More than a few eyes being wiped over here too.

[SilentHandover]

Daifly said
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really sad day, but made a little happier by being able to watch a room full of 40+ year old pilots acting like little kids when someone saw her outbound from OCK...! Good to look up at Farnborough Tower too and see the Controller on a chair with the binoculars! Can't think the same is going to happen when the last 747 retires - and therein lies the whole reason why it didn't really make it as a financial success. The envy of the Yanks...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That would explain why Farnborough LARS was unavailable all afternoon then!!!!:D

[stagger]

Here's a little video I shot yesterday of BA9021c leaving Edinburgh bound for LHR. 10mb Quicktime format.

Concorde take-off from Edinburgh (24/10/03) (http://www.stir.ac.uk/staff/psychology/np6/pound/vid/DSCN0774.MOV)

Unfortunately, my camera has no mic so there's no sound :{

Anyone have an audio file of a Concorde take-off I can dub in?;)

[Jordan D]

Excellent photos Damien B. Absolutely amazing ... how is you've been there everytime!

I don't think my photos of the departure from EDI match up.... they will be up shortly.

Jordan

[ORAC]

One day children may ask: “Grandad, were you really alive when people flew to New York and landed before they had taken off, and men walked on the Moon?” Supersonic flight. Once we thought it would be the dawn but yesterday we saw it was only a twilight.

Concorde’s last flight was many things: proud, thankful, triumphant, thrilling. But most of all it was sad.

There were lumps in many throats as we coasted towards a big party in a silk-lined tent in a hanger, and Captain Bannister paid a moving tribute to all who had worked for, and aboard,“this fabulous aircraft".

“From now on, tomorrow’s world will be yesterday’s.”

Matthew Parris - The Times.

:{ :{ :{ :{

[Navy_Adversary]

Anyone heard any info about Jeremy Clarkson tipping some Champagne deliberately over the editor of the Daily Mirror Piers Morgan whilst the aircraft was en-route LHR?

[green bean]

What a Machine...:{

[PAXboy]

I'm really glad that I went to EGLL to see the 002 and 001 last Sunday evening, as a prior engagement meant I could not be there on Friday.

The BBC2 coverage was pathetic. They had not footage of the morning departure from JFK!!! The bloke pointed to the empty stand and told us about it and how wonderful the water cannon salute was??? Then standard pics of celebs. Pah!

Then they talked all the way through the landings and missed the water salute, "What's going on here?" asks the anchor man, as we get a distant shot of the salute. Eh??? He should be informing people.

Then they only just got in position for the Droop Salute and there were too many other examples of a truly cr@p show.

Still, I did fly on her!!

[aviate1138]

G-ALAN said....
Why did BA and AF line the fuel tanks with Kevlar? I mean surely a piece of tyre striking the fuel tank of ANY aircraft would cause the tank to rupture. It was just unfortunate that Concorde, such a high profile aircraft, was the next in line for T/O after the Continental A/C which apparently shed the metal. The same thing would have happened if it was a 737. Would all 73 operaters in the world then ground their fleet of 73's then line the fuel tanks with Kevlar? nah I don't think they would. IMHO it was just a case of Concorde being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Aviate1138 says...
When BA had the tyre bursts some 9 or 10? years ago, did they not strengthen the shield/guard/deflectors on the undercarriage to prevent a tyre burst causing the problem that happened to the AF Concorde? And did they not also limit the number of retreads each tyre could have? And did Air France incorporate the same 'minor mods' or whatever happens on big boys aeroplanes? If not, why not?

Aviate 1138

Same gutted feeling as when the TSR2 was scrapped.

[Max Angle]

Managed to watch from the side of the inner taxiway at LHR yesterday. It was wonderfull really, the whole airport ground to a halt for ten minutes. Crews, baggage handlers, fuel truck drivers, caterers and loads of police just downed tools to go and watch a bit of history. Not sure how many flights went out late but I bet a few did. It was hard not to have a lump in your throat, LHR is a less interesting place this morning. I think all of us who work there are feeling the loss of Concorde very keenly.

[Zoom]

Well done to the photographers who have posted such excellent photos on this thread.

And well done to all involved with Concorde herself over the last 40 years, including those who designed and built her, those who operated her, those who swept her aisles, those who cleared her to take off and landing, those who stumped up their hard-earned cash to be carried by her, those who accepted her faults as a price of progress and those who made the special effort yesterday to say farewell. You all have my congratulations. Except for Eddington.

And here's hoping that each of the museums who will be mightily privileged to get a copy soon will own her with pride, care for her with diligence and display her with style, because she deserves no less.

[TwinAisle]

Having had the priviledge to have flown on her twice (AE and AF) - I had to go and see her off at Cardiff on Thursday...... not a dry eye in the house.

My head says that she had to go - noisy, dirty and just not profitable... but my heart says she was the business.

I for one will miss her..... she was the best of the best. In the words of Jeremy Clarkson - yesterday, Britain slid further toward Third World status. For the first time ever, technology has gone backward; yesterday, the US was 3:40 away, now it is 7:40......

Bless her - the reason some of us dream....

TA

[Rollingthunder]

So, at the end, good party at LHR, EGLL, and NO CHAOS?

[invalid entries]

I have a video taken from inside the cabin of G-BOAE, of the landing at LHR. It is 26.6 MB. Anyone know how I can upload it for you (assuming anyones interested)

[Sick Squid]

Am not ashamed to say I was hanging out of the window of the BAW484 at block 54 watching Speedbird AE pass right in front of me, having told the punters what they were seeing already, with me digital camera in hand and waving like a shameless fan. Later found out that Les Brodie was the Captain on that flight, and had the pleasure of flying with him on his brief visit to the 777 a few years ago before he went back on Concorde.

My favourite Concorde memory comes from 1989... sitting at the holding point in the middle of Prestwicks runway 13 as Concorde AA was doing training circuits... training being the word, because the one we were watching was, to be polite, a little unstable; it is after all not a straightforward aircraft to land, and does take practice i am told. Anyway, they threw it away in the flare, and did a full-afterburner go-around, only a few feet from the little Cessna 150 I was in with my instructor (GB, and it was G-BCBY for all the ex-SAF people.) The noise was incredible and we were both yelling with excitement! If you'd told me at the time that a few years later I would be putting in a bid for a command on Concorde (albeit with not a hope in hell!) would I have believed you?

And then the day after, me in the circuit practising glide aproaches, with Concorde lurking in the vicinity, and my favourite ever RT exchange of all-time...

"Prestwick Tower, Speedbird Concorde Alpha Alpha, 12 miles, Runway 13, Touch and go...."

"Roger Alpha Alpha, continue approach, you are number two to the Cessna 150 on short finals...."

Oh, I liked that.........!! Hard to top that.....

Those of us who trained at Prestwick, either as PPL's or if we were later lucky enough at the BAe College there saw Concorde often, but not once did she ever lose her shine, or become routine.... later on, as a regular to JFK from a regional 757/767 base I would often spend more time doing a "walk round" on Concorde on the stand next to me than my own aircraft! Looking at the pictures posted earlier here, where else can you see such elegance encapsulated in a piece of engineering?

Sometimes, but so rarely these days, mankind's artifice becomes artform, and I can think of no more perfect example.

[Jordan D]

Can anyone tell me the best way of uploading my EDI photos, so I can share them?

Jordan

[Wee Jock]

I'll miss the racket of her flying past my house every night, my 4-year-old daughter would shout 'go, Conc, go', even she knew the sound. Very pleased I had a trip in 1996, it was worth every penny to see the navy blue sky and the curve of the earth at 60,000ft. I became an air trafficker the year Concorde entered commercial service, and on Thursday night I stood out on the balcony of the tower at Farnborough when she left for JFK, just so I could hear her one last time. Hard to believe we'll never hear that fabulous, ear-splitting crackle of real engines again. Thanks, Conc. You were the Queen of the Skies.

The Wright Brothers' first flight 1903, Concorde's last flight 2003. A century of boom gone bust.


:ok: :ok: :{

[WeLieInTheShadows]

I got a question.

How come it visits all these airports around the country but doesn't come to LGW?

Just wondering....

[timbo04]

Beagle - I am sorry but your suggestion that as a nation we should be "proud" or Richard Branson is nonsense. Branson wanted to score a cheap point against BA - nothing more, nothing less. He has spent his whole life avoiding British taxes - he was charged with fraud by customs and excise and most of his companies are "owned" by off-shore trusts. So when he expresses his outrage and the alleged favourable treatment BA received from the British taxpayer he should be a little more honest. I admire Branson as a bussinessman, but am amazed at the gullible out there who are still taken in by his patter - he is not a philanthropist, he does very little for charity - he is a sharp businnessman with very little to say.

BA retired Concorde because it was no longer viable - BA is a company with shareholders - what do you expect?

For those who are still taken in by Branson I suggest you look up a copy of a biography by Tom Bower and then contrast it to RB's own work of fiction.

Concorde was fantastic and I do not want to diminish its importance but times change.

[jrbt]

Just a reminder to everyone, from earlier post by Speedbird252 on Non-Airline Forums: Private Flying: A sad week for British aviation - have you all seen the photo by Harm Rutten at http://www.airliners.net/open.file/441886/L/. Check it out.

[BEagle]

"BA retired Concorde because it was no longer viable - BA is a company with shareholders - what do you expect?"

Yes - that's about all one could expect from ba these days. No pride, no idea of the loss that the nation feels.... Now that they're so dull and grey and the 'Dirty Tricksters' are still being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds per annum, their public image will just become ever more tarnished. Skippy was totally uninspiring on TV - I wonder whether it was a 'political' decision to interview him on his own and not to have John and Raymond Baxter in the same room at the time?

If Sir RB said that he could have made Concorde 'viable', at least then he should have been allowed to try. Cancelling a few Airbus orders in favour of more Boeings might have made the point to the OEM as well......

Perhaps the ba callsign should change to "Slowbird" now?

[Rollingthunder]

The withdrawn AF Concordes would have supplied years of spares for BA's aircraft. If Airbus would have released the specs and rights, some other component manufacturers could have carried on with spares at a price. Ditto, RR, if they weren't willing to support the Olympus powerplants. And rotables are called rotables for a reason.

Speedbird is a venerable call sign and should be continued. Afterall, they are still as speedy as anyone else, even if they've just made the biggest mistake in their history.

Would a Rolls Royce be quite right without the Spirit of Ecstasy on top of the rad?

[ojs]

So why did Concorde retire? I think the reasoning goes something like this:

(a) Airbus say "It'll cost £40M for us to carry on supporting Concorde, and BA and AF have to share the cost".

(b) AF (about to be privatised) say, "We can't afford it, BA will have to pay it all".

(c) BA say they can't afford it.

Ergo, Concorde is scrapped.

There was never any chance of Branson getting Concorde:

(a) Because BA would never have sold it (main reason); but

(b) Because VS doesn't have the staff, slots or infrastructure to run it. (It was all very well saying he wanted the Concordes for £1, but what price everything else he'd have needed?).

In addition, I think it's naive to think that VS would have run the service profitably on its own - without another airline company's support. But that's a side issue because I think VS would have run the service as a loss-leader.

So all in all the reasons for the retirement are far more complex than often presented, and for all those members of Joe-Public who say, "BA should have kept it", how many of them actually ever flew on Concorde (very few because it was so expensive); and how many have flown Easyjet or RyanAir because they were cheaper, thereby giving BA less revenue to support an SSC service.

It's all very well complaining from the sidelines, and while I too am not ashamed to have shed a tear last Friday, I can't completely blame BA for what happened.

P.S. If anyone wants to be properly annoyed by something, why not hop over to flyertalk.com where the travel forums includes a topic called "Which do you prefer: the 747 or Concorde". Needless to say, that (majority American) forum prefers the 747. Oh purrlleeaasse !!

[PAXboy]

With regards to the biz pax don't forget that, when Conc was devised and built:
[list=1]
No comfortable large seat in Club to work/sleep in.
No laptop computers to make the time as work where you cannot be 'got' at by anyone.
Telecommunications that makes transatlantic phone calls instant and cheap.
Internet: Email and Web. When Conc operated it's first commercial flight, a one page fax would take six minutes to transmit. The change in technology, changed Concorde's viability.
Biz jets that can cross the Atlantic without stopping.
Part ownership of biz jets to bring down cost.
Shareholders not wanting to see money spent on Concorde just to save three hours.
[/list=1]
There are more along this line of enquiry as well. Also, as has been stated, the financial links between France / America and UK / America are much weaker. With AF not using the machine for the charters and so forth to make up the numbers, then they were always on a losing wicket.

[Rollingthunder]

Telecommunications that makes transatlantic phone calls instant and cheap.

GBP 5 a minute?

My mob has been busily removing the phones from the seat backs/

[Lucifer]

BEagle:

It is all the result of Airbus, nothing to do with BA at all. There is no support for the aircraft, and Virgin could not operate the aircraft if they wanted to since - there are so few spares - bear in mind that 2 were removed from service to support the other 5; none of the corporate customers who had Concorde on their travel requirements before 2001 had it in 2003; the aircraft can only last at today's usage for another couple of years before it runs out of supersonic cycles - there are few left on the highest-used aircraft to reach 8,500 cycles; to extend to 10,000 cycles from 8,500 at the moment requires work from the design authority - Airbus - who refuse to support it.

In essence without the French the aircraft has no future, so don't blame BA.

[Jordan D]

Lucifer - the two BA Aircraft that were removed from service were removed as there was no need to upgrade them post Paris Crash at massive cost, when with the 5 they had in service, the job could be done effectively.

Jordan

[jdaleyppr]

Over the last few months there have been a number of comments along the lines of "Its not BA's decision Airbus are withdrawing the type certificate"

That may be so but BA are not a small Airbus spares customer and are a potential future customer. Its hard to believe they had so little influence.

[Lucifer]

Jordan - no they were not.

[BEagle]

Hmm - and how hard did ba's beancounters plead with Airbus? Jolly convenient scapegoat for the lords, suits and Skippy to blame when it gave them the golden opportunity to discontinue Concorde services they'd been looking for all along.


"Don't blame us - it was Airbus." Methinks they do protest too much........

I note from the Concorde bulletin board that I'm not alone in boycotting ba for business travel.....or for any other form of travel, for that matter.

[point5]

First Concorde due to depart LHR tomorrow. Destination, time and reg unknown.

Cheers!

[flange lubricator]

I flew down from Glasgow to watch my first ever Concorde departure on Friday (as I mentioned in a previous post). Standing in the car park of the Renaissance I happened to get chatting to another fellow Scot who had come down from Leeds. When telling him where we had come from he said "you're not the guy who posted on Pprune saying you were coming from Glasgow are you?" - Yes! was my reply!! - Nice to meet you Ptarmigan!! Oh and by the way, it was well worth the trip... When I watched her take off heading for Edinburgh I nearly wet myself!!!!

[iloveconcorde]

Within BA we have been told that no details of Concorde's final
destinations have been decided. Also, they said we will be given
information prior to the departures so that we can watch them
leave. So, I doubt that there will be one tomorrow.

ILC

[Random Electron]

Here's a thought for you all.

I rekon Airbus, BA & AF may have exceeded their Authority in scrapping Concorde.

This aircraft was designed, built and developed at massive cost, at entirely the British and French taxpayers expense.

The aircraft were then gifted to British Airways for £1 each. The plan to return 80% of it's profits to the Government was quietly ripped up prior to BA's privatisation.

Given the scenes at Heathrow last friday, I would say that, bar a few sad tree huggers, the vast majority of Concorde's true owners (i.e., British taxpayers) want to see the aircraft keep flying.

Given SRB has offered BA £1 million each for aircraft which BA paid £1 each for, WHY DOSEN'T EDDINGTON CALL HIS BLUFF, AND ACCEPT THE OFFER, like we all want him to?

[Jordan D]

Lucifer - care to explain why I'm wrong.

Anyone else - still looking for help uploading those EDI photos.

Jordan

[Flying Lawyer]

jdaleyppr

Shrewd point, well made. :ok:
It's one of the points made by those of my friends in BA who were against the decision. Anyone who thinks Airbus simply 'announced' such a momentous decision to BA without prior consultation is, with great respect, being just a little naive.
That is not what happened.

Someone (on this or another thread) said BA Engineering were in favour of scrapping Concorde. From what I hear, there's truth in that. Maintaining Concorde was always a significant item in the Engineering budget but, until recently, it made an enormous profit which more than justified the cost.
Taking all years from 1982 until the Paris crash, Concorde made an average profit for BA of £40 million per annum. Some years were higher, some lower, that was the audited average net annual profit - after taking into account all operating and support costs. (Figures from Jock Lowe, and quoted with his consent.)

When Concorde started flying again, there were fewer trans-Atlantic flights and no charter flights (which had been an important source of revenue) and Concorde operated at a loss of about £10 million per annum.
When Air France pulled out, Airbus was prepared to continue supporting the BA fleet alone, but it would have cost BA in the region of £10 million per annum. That would have meant Concorde operating at a loss of about £20 million per annum initially, and the announcement was made.

There were those in BA who were confident that, with proper marketing, and gradually reintroducing the profitable charter flights, Concorde could again have been profitable and should have been saved - even if it meant operating at a loss until the high end business market picked up.

Sadly, the cautious group (or pessimistic group, depending upon your point of view) won the day. BA was not prepared to pay the £10 million demanded by Airbus in addition to the current operating loss and Concorde was mothballed.

On a separate point .....
Those who've dismissed Richard Branson's offer as a cheap publicity stunt might be interested to know there are people in a position to express informed opinions who don't share their view.

At BA's Concorde party last Friday evening, television recordings about the day's events were played for those who'd been on the flights and missed them. When one of the former Concorde pilots (commenting in the Sky coverage, I think) said Virgin should have been given the chance to operate Concorde, there was an immediate and very loud cheer of agreement.
Branson had researched the venture and there are informed people who believe it was a viable proposal and, if BA wasn't prepared to continue, that he should have been given the opportunity. (RB's claim that the aircraft were given to BA for nothing is an over-simplification, and not entirely accurate, but that's a different matter.)


There are conflicting but respectable opinions on the various issues. However, the impression I've gained from conversations with various people in a position to hold informed opinions is that BA's decision to stop Concorde operations was not as clear-cut and unavoidable as the official announcements suggest, that current BA personnel toe the offical line without necessarily agreeing with it, and that it would be wrong to dismiss Branson's proposal as a publicity-seeking gesture which couldn't have worked.

I'm obviously not in a position to hold an informed opinion myself, but I know a few people who are and find their views very interesting.

Tudor Owen

[paulo]

I've heard it's in the paint shop - anyone know what's being done?

Hope it's something significant - I can't see why it would be repainted just to send it to a museum.

[Kremmen]

DEVISTATED, as many people who inhabit these boards are, by the premature and uncalled for retirement of Concorde, does anyone know of the best email addresses to let our feelings be known - feelings of gross disappointment - to BA and Tony Blair?

I'm sure even a little of our feelings sent their way would help US, if not the beautiful bird....

[BEagle]

Tudor, mate - that's exactly what I've been told. The premature retirement of Concorde was the direct result of recommendations made by ba's feeble-minded beancounters....

Could you really envisage King or Marshall ever letting Sir Richard acquire the fleet, no matter how much he was prepared to offer for them?

When it had Concorde, ba still had some special status. It no longer has any.....

[ptarmigan]

Hi, John Thompson (Thompson with a 'p'). So glad to have met you and big Dave alongside 27R and to have shared Friday with you. I've been a Pprune watcher (and very infrequent contributor) for a few years, and have never quite felt part of the inner circle until I got off the Hoopa bus at the Renaissance at 9.15am and heard the accents of two Glaswegians standing on a wall outside and decided to ask the question ' are you the Ppruners who posted earlier this week saying you're coming down from Glasgow'.

They were - and for anyone who's interested ( and excuse me for taking the liberty, you two stars), John from Motherwell drives Virgin Trains and Dave makes jewellery in Glasgow. Different people from different backgrounds - but they both loved Concorde for all the reasons I did, still do and always will do. And they both wanted to be there.

The 10.15 and 2.05 departures were magical - and for John they were his first and last. And yes, Scotsmen do cry! In between, and after, we ate, drank, reminisced - and drank again (well, we're Scotsmen, what do you expect?) - and then drank in all three landings. I stood with two French couples who said they had flown over from Paris to be able to pay tribute in a way that AF had not allowed them to do, and then met an Indian family who had interrupted a holiday to Austria to fly in and be part of history.

My contribution, now it's all over?

Is there anything else in history that had the power to stop so many people around the world doing whatever it was they were doing, to rush to doors, windows and gaze skywards? And all to be captivated by what they saw.

Personally, flying into or out of Heathrow so often and being disappointed if it didn't coincide with an SSC departure or arrival time so I could at least get a crink in my neck from seats a or f.

And finally, grateful thanks that, as an aircraft designer, I wasn't offered a pile of money to design Concorde's successor - because I couldn't. It was perfect. And always will be.

Loved all the Tower to a/c chat on Friday, as did everyone standing around me alongside 27. Grateful thanks.

[BEagle]

https://www.britishairways.com/webmail/prep_ukfeedback_en perhaps? You will be required to provide your name, contact number and e-mail address.

[Cathar]

1. I do not believe that Branson wanted to operate concorde or that he would have been able to even if had wanted to.

2. What could the Government do about it?

[BEagle]

"First Concorde due to depart LHR tomorrow. Destination, time and reg unknown."


This smacks of Skippy and the rest of the suits trying to get rid of them quickly before the sway of public opinion makes them think again??

What an awful end to a national icon. I truly don't believe that Eddington can even begin to comprehend the sense of outrage which the majority of the nation feels.

[MerchantVenturer]

There has been speculation in the local Bristol media over the past few days that G-BOAF, which is supposedly bound for Filton and retirement, might be the aircraft to be kept active for air displays etc if, a big if, agreement can be reached for this to happen.

[palmtree]

Yes Flying Lawyer - I agree..

...there is no one left in BA at the top with any guts... all todies because if you dont tow the party line dont expect a free upgrade on you nexct flight!!! Who appart from the Pilots has spoken out?

All of the beautiful birds will quickly dissapear and when they get to their final resting place (Boeing of course will be getting one - they have tried to get their hands on the intake technology for years... now BA will hand it to them... they will be reverse engineering it in Seattle without a doubt..) Engineers on board those final flights from BA will disable the A/C on arrival so they will never fly again... electric drills through the center section? (deny that BA!)

Such is the disregard in an airline that has lost its heart at the top... who of us if we had the authority would have done what they did on Friday?

Will BA deny that the huge maintenance reserves acrued last year on the Concorde fleet ( to make sure a huge Concorde loss would be shown in the accounts and everyone at BA would blame to A/C for no profit related bonus) when brought back in from reserves now that the A/C are 'retired due to the ever increasing maintenance costs' will be used to pay huge increases to those at the top ( now that the staff have signed up to a small annual increase (excluding the bosses ofcourse!) )

Its just a joke... the Alice in wonderland world they live in.... Bitter and twisted?... Yes I am.

On Friday I was in my office near the Southern Runway... Thousands of young and old and babies were there waiting and waiting and what happened? they all landed in front of the VIP area on the Nortern Runway... Ok I understand that for the TV it was great but couldnt one have landed on the Southern runway or a Paralell approach of 2 Concordes? but then these were just ordinary people not premium cabin travellers... people who would never fly on them... but they just came to see them as they were proud of those who designed her - flew her and maintained her....thats why they came ..... so who at the top of BA would care about them....

And by the way I was lucky enough to fly on Concorde 23 times... all at full fare....

So Goodbye beautiful machine... we all love you and allways will.. we didnt have the power to stop them destroying you... All we can hope is that those spineless creatures who took the descision to kill you off will rot in Hell.....


(But your not quite dead yet... cant we all get together to do something? - anyone who wants to start something - I'm in)

[Navy_Adversary]

Nice touch on the RT with 002 and West Drayton when London ATC vectored 002 over West Drayton.

ATC: "Speedbird 002 you're right over the top of us now and everyones run outside"

Quick as anything from 002 came the reply,

"Well don't you go!"

Great stuff

[BahrainLad]

I understand that the reason for dropping the charters post-relaunch was due to the increase in cycles that they placed on the airframes.

At the time (with the assumption of Airbus support till 2007) the decision was made as a way of making the entire operation more 'robust' (i.e. less of a need to conduct heavy maintenance so often to appease beancounters in lean times).

Of course, with the withdrawal announcement, they could have filled all the charters they could offer.....but it was too late to get AA and AB back into working order and ramp up the operations of the other 5.

[BoeingMEL]

Nice sentiment.... but no business whatsoever of the government. BA is a PLC with an obligation to its shareholders! bm

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Tudor - Thanks for a very informative post. BA may rue the day they decided to pull the plug on the magnificent bird. The beancounters may be hoping that these wealthy displaced ex-Concorde passengers will troop obediently into the first class cabins of BA's 74s and 77s, at good profit margins per seat for the airline.

But with the unique differentiator gone, BA is just another 'me too' airline. These passengers may well take their business elsewhere. I rather hope that they do.

SSD

[Kremmen]

Yeah,

Thanks boys/girls for your positive contribution to this thread so far...or not as the case may be.

Since this thread is about contact - for those that wish - I really don't want to take it down the avenue that the government couldn't have done anything, that Branson wouldn't have wanted to fly them etc. That's for the other Concorde thread and their are plenty that disagree with you. Read those replies and comment there.

Some of us believe that it may be too late but it doesn't hurt to voice our displeasure. Live and let live.

[spitfire747]

BM.. maybe.. however it was not BA or te then BOAC who paid for concorde, the governemnt and UK taxpayers stumped up the billions !! so i think it is only right the UK tax payer has a say in the demise of concorde, and by judging by various polls including the sky news poll, 97.65% of people think R Branson should have been given an opportunity to fly her again.

Your local Mp or councillor might be a good start

Could someone with some more HTML knowledge than me setup a website that people could sign an electronic "petition" ??

[Headset starter]

I thought the rumour was that AG would be the one to be kept flying, instead of it being left in Barbados?

HS

[Ernst Blofeld's Cat]

Palmtre, I agree with with you about the concorde being blamed for the lack of profit related bonus, i heard the same rumour from a friend in BA accounts,(allegedly!) should be investigated!

Bitter & twisted? youre not a lemon are you?!:D

[jrbt]

BEagle et al. - I have heard a rumor of Concorde inbound to JFK Monday Oct-27, but not yet confirmed.

Some of the news articles say BA is still looking into whether to keep at least one Concorde flyworthy for special events. I haven't seen any denials of that in the news. But hasn't it been explained in various PPRuNe forums why that is ruled out? Can anyone shed light - is it true BA is still considering it?

Anyway, if there is a possibility of keeping at least one flyworthy (something British engineering could do without Airbus support...right? :) ), then wouldn't it make sense to keep a few in or near Heathrow instead of shipping them to oblivion, er, I mean, museums? Ask a few people whether they'd rather be able to pick among five birds in museums in various places, vs. a single one actually flying on, admittedly, rare occasions, and we all know what the preference is going to be!

If one Concorde flies on special occasions with crew only, then all the engineering and safety parameters are somewhat more lenient, aren't they, since no pax. Correct me if I'm wrong. For air shows, etc., it doesn't even have to be able to fly supersonic or its full range.

[opsmaneurope]

If BA has an obligation to it's shareholders then what right have they got to retire/scrap these aircraft rather than make an attempt to sell them.
Let there be a public auction, I'll start the bidding at £1 !

[donder10]

Given that Concorde's COA will be withdrawn in about 4 days and Airbus have blocked any attempt to extent it,I can't see it happening unfortunately.

[N2000]

Kremmen

Why are you suggesting BA is at fault. Isnt it the manufacturer who is withdrawing support?

[Daifly]

A Concorde is leaving LHR tomorrow morning (Monday) for New York. Not sure of the time, will try and advise when I do.

:mad: Keep em flying!

[eddief]

I have been trying (without much success) to get down to the *real* reasons why BA have decided to cut off their right arm in grounding the Concorde fleet and found Tudor's post (see earlier) to be about the most plausible I have yet seen.

It doesn't take very much imagination to believe that a few faceless suits managed to convince themselves that the Concordes were incapable of being run profitably (something I would hotly contest given their track-record) and that their operational costs could not be at least partially justified by the absolutely unique position that they gave BA worldwide.

The question that nobody seems to ask, is just what 'incentives' Airbus offered BA and HM Govt to roll over and co-operate? Let's just wait and see, but I am sure we'll see the announcement of a few hundred new jobs in Filton over the next few months and BA will no doubt be getting a half-price 321 (or similar) - not that any of us will know about that if and when it happens...

The sums mentioned are not terrifying large for an airline of BA's scale and could have been turned rapidly into profit with just the tiniest application of imagination (the a/c was in profit until they started screwing its schedules and use around after all).

At the end of the day, BA either killed it deliberately or mis-managed it until the bean-counters got their way. I hope that HM remembers this one when the 'normal' knighthood for an outgoing BA Chairman is proposed...(if she grants those to Australians that is?)

[MerchantVenturer]

"I thought the rumour was that AG would be the one to be kept flying, instead of it being left in Barbados?"

That was the rumour in the local news media here last week.

Some of that media has now changed its mind and plumped for AF, presumably on the basis that AG might have gone to Barbados before any final decision is made about flying displays and the like.

I don't know which, if either, of these two would be the a/c that would be kept operational in the event of such a joyous happening.

I suppose it might be the local press just trying to look for a new angle that is not really there.

Visual,

AF was one of the three Concordes that did the final arrival at LHR on Friday (the Biscay flight I think).

[ThermalUndies]

If a Concorde is taking off under its own steam from Heathrow instead of in bits in the back of cargo then that rather makes a joke out of friday?

Its nice to think that we may see a Concorde zooming about at the odd airshow but remember that they have been trying to do that with the Vulcan for years without success.

[nicecsd]

BA did a favour to the Governament in accepting a commercial disaster and in doing so ultimately had to promote and invest a great deal of money and resources to make it financially viable.
No one wanted to buy it ...due to political, enviromental and plain economics...the beautiful machine drinks too much ...it is noisy...pollutes is not that confortable to fly on and doesn t stay in the air long enough for a viable non stop service.
It was a nice, expensive extravaganza and lessons should be learned by its demise not to make another huge mistake.

[Hand Solo]

Because Airbus-bashing isn't a national sport. BA bashing is. Why let the facts get in the way of a good story? Branson doesn't and look where it got him!

Perhaps letters of complaint would be better addressed to Air France and Airbus for making supersonic flight an economically unviable operation?

[Rugz]

Try:

www.saveconcorde.co.uk/sign

for the petition (2200 or so at the moment and climbing fast)

and

http://pub13.ezboard.com/fconcordesstfrm2

for a forum dedicated to concorde - where there are a number of interesting threads about keeping her flying

[paulo]

Yes. Landing order was:

Alpha Echo: Edinburgh Return, Round Britain Tour Flight
Alpha Foxtrot: LHR-Bay of Biscay
Alpha Golf: JFK Return.

[Taildragger]

I believe that it is the lowest hours aircraft that is going to Filton.
It would make sense, if it is to be kept flying as a Heritage aircraft.

[woodpecker]

AG was the aircraft that had water contamination in the hydraulic lines some years ago. The damaged pipes were inaccessible within the wing and the aircraft was grounded

It was used as a "static spares package" for some considerable time before a complete overhaul. Hence it is now the "lowest houred" aircraft.

[woodpecker]

It seems to be changing by the hour, but what is the latest on their planned final resting places?

The one that I find most objectionable is the rusting aircraft carrier moored at downtown manhattan!

Are they really planning to sit it on the flight deck with a few American fighters? What guarantees will they get that it will be looked after?

[nomdeplume]

Very interesting and informative post Flying Lawyer.
I hope you won't mind me quoting part of a previous post by you in a Concorde discussion on another thread a few weeks ago. I think it helps to complete the picture.
It shouldn't be forgotten that, from the very beginning, there have always been two strong bodies of opinion about Concorde within BA: one for, one against. I'm told by a number of reliable sources, whom I have no reason to doubt, that an anti lobby existed at Board/management level to the end and this final problem swung the 'middle ground'.
Concorde has always had to contend with opposition within the company. Some were convinced it couldn't survive BA's financial streamlining in preparation for privatisation and, but for the foresight and wisdom of Lord King who became Chairman in 1981, it may not have. King was pro Concorde, created the Concorde Division and gave Captain Brian Walpole (appointed General Manager Concorde) and Captain Jock Lowe (then a Senior FO) two years to turn it to profit. They did so. I declare a bias because he's become a friend, but I consider Jock Lowe to be one of the 'all round' cleverest men it's been my privilege to meet in aviation. He was Commercial Director Concorde until 1999.

Their challenging task had only been under way for a few months when Concorde's future was threatened by a different and very serious crisis: the government gave notice it wouldn't fund Concorde's support costs beyond 1983 (later extended to 1984.) Many in BA thought (and the anti lobby hoped) that really was the end of Concorde and when King told the government BA would consider taking over the support costs, the anti-Concorde body thought he was barking mad. However, King and his team negotiated new contracts with the relevant companies and Concorde was saved again. The anti lobby forecast financial disaster but the BA Concorde fleet was making a profit 20 years later when the retirement was announced.

We're all entitled to our views. I understand, and don't underestimate, the serious problems created by the Air France decision. I merely believe, rightly or wrongly, that if a man with the genius and courage of Lord King was still Chairman, a way would have been found around the latest problem.

[Kremmen]

Fantastic Rugz thanks

[paulo]

The first delivery flight is apparently delayed (i.e. not Monday), but assuming Seattle is a destination then JFK could be a possibility for a stopover. G-BOAF is in the paintshop, so I'm told, so I have big fingers crossed... for something more...

[jrbt]

Aha, over on Other Aircrew Forums: Airlines, Airports & Routes: Concorde Memories & Related Threads, PPRuNer BAe 146-100 on 14 October posted the info, derived from http://www.concordesst.com/home.html:

*Concorde G-BOAD will [be] retired to the Intrepid Air and Space museum in New York. It will fly to New York on Monday October 27th , where work will begin to transport it onto a barge where it will be berthed next to the Intrepid Aircraft carrier. The museum have plans to protect it from the elements, but if their track record is anything to go by the aircraft could be in for a rough ride, as some of the aircraft on the actual carrier deck have seen better days. New York was seen as important to the success of Concorde within BA, and they feel strongly that one should go on display in the city.

*On 31st Oct Concorde G-BOAC is retired to the Manchester Airport viewing park. It will initially go on display next to the BAE Systems RJX100, currently the final ever passenger jet built in the UK. The Airport have grand plans, that will see the aircraft put on display inside a purpose built facility.

*G-BOAE will fly to Seattle (with a Tech stop possibly in Gander or Maine) on November 3rd. It will go on display in one of the world’s leading aircraft museums – The Museum of Flight, which included exhibits such as the worlds first ever Boeing 747 and a De Havilland Comet 4.

*The most controversial decision appears to be to send Concorde Alpha-Golf to Barbados on Nov 10th. Although Barbados was important to the aircraft with [its] scheduled winter services, the island does not even [have] an aviation museum. A local businessman has offered to construct a facility at Grantley Adams Airport. Although with people going to Barbados to relax and enjoy the sun, rather than going to see Concorde, the decision seems flawed, especially when there are a number of aviation museums or attractions in the UK that have missed out.

*The world’s final ever Concorde flight will be on Nov 17th [when] Concorde G-BOAF is retired to Filton. Concorde 216 was the final ever Concorde constructed and will initially be stored in the West Bay of the Brabazon hanger at the Airbus site. Eventually it will go on display when the Bristol Aviation heritage museum opens. Plans are afoot to display the aircraft at the Bristol Aviation Collection's new museum at Filton during the Summer of 2004.

There are presently no plans for a heritage aircraft to fly at special flypasts or at airshows, although if a last minute deal was struck with Airbus, G-BOAG would likely carry out this role rather than going straight away to Barbados.

----

So the question is, if the "last minute deal" is still a possibility, why the rush to ship out the rest of the flock rather than retain at least some of them for parts etc.?

[Tenminutes]

Paint one in BOAC colours :=

[Onan the Clumsy]

Half BA and half Singapore Airlines

[ICT_SLB]

Onan,
Why not half BOAC, half Braniff? At least they were the only American airline to fly the bird commercially.

[PAXboy]

So the question is, if the "last minute deal" is still a possibility, why the rush to ship out the rest of the flock rather than retain at least some of them for parts etc.? Starter for ten: [list=1]
Storage: The cost of having non-operational machines taking up hanger space at EGLL that could be used by BA or rented to others.
The crews are going to other jobs and retiring.
The air-worthiness certificates and other paperwork is going to be withdrawn.
If the machines are sitting around - people will ask why they are not still flying and reopen the whole debate.
[/list=1]

[BRISTOLRE]

BA should be making formal announcement on all of this today including disposal program. If anyone has news of this please report....

FYI No flightplans in the system for ANY CONC flights today ex-LHR.

Did anyone see the line up of 6x Concordes Friday night under spotlamps infront of the adjancent A30 hangar?
Very impressive. Anyone with digital pics of this please post....

[Wycombe]

Was in the LHR area Saturday pm, so took the kids (well, I wanted a look aswell) for a drive around the back of the BA Hangars, telling them on the way that "we should be able to see all 7 today"!

From what could be seen (where the bloody screens didn't obscure the view, there were actually only 2 (AC and AG I think), so where were all the rest (apart from AF which I have no learnt from this thread is in the paintshop :confused: )??

My last visual sighting was on Thurs eve when BA002 blasted over my W Berks abode (still and crisp night, so the Olympus crackle lasted for ages!) at about 1920L - 3 hours later she was on the telly landing at JFK - says it all.

[Evanelpus]

The one in the paintshop now sports the 'Pause to Remember' titles for Rememberance Day and very nice she looks too.

[paulo]

Picture, for those that are interested...


http://www.concordesst.com/poppy.jpg

[noisy]

I saw the whole thing from Primrose Hill in North London on friday evening. The spectacle was enjoyed by several hundred people from this vantage point. I know that certain ATCOs and aircrew read these forums and, politics aside, I just want to say thank you for a memory which I will have till the end of my days; It was a magnificent piece of airmanship. These people are a credit to their respective organisations. Well Done.

[point5]

Hi all!

BAW9180P was due out at 10:15 this morning but was canx due to engine troubles. Was destined for JFK. Now due to depart on Friday.

Cheers!

P5

[BRISTOLRE]

Thanks Point5
Was this AlphaDelta due out today destined for JFK? I checked and no flightplans filed for today.
Still I hear of no official statement release from BA, could be as late as this week now.

Why repaint AF if its going to a new home?

[BEagle]

Nearly 2500 names on the 'Save Concorde' petiton now ( www.saveconcorde.co.uk/sign ) - including a few celebs, ex-Concorde pilots and others! Good work - I just hope that Skippy is losing some sleep over this number of people saying that they'll be choosing airlines other than ba in future! This is what signing the petition means:

"The purpose of this petition is not intended to make us feel guilty if we have to fly with British Airways, but that we acknowledge we will spend a little extra time looking for an alternative when we travel. If an alternative is available, then we choose to fly with that other airline.

By signing this petition, you agree to look for flights with airlines other than British Airways where possible, until October 2004. Beyond this date, Concorde will be difficult to return to flying condition, so please do let your family, friends, colleagues and associates know about this urgent call for help. To send this to a friend, simply cut and paste the website address into your e-mail.

You also recognise that as a consumer, you have the ability to vote with your money, and can influence the decisions of British Airways by showing its shareholders that you choose to fly anyone BUT British Airways until they offer the nation the opportunity to keep Concorde flying!

Further information about Concorde and her plight for flight can be found on the Save Concorde homepage (www.saveconcorde.co.uk) "

[Stockpicker]

I was on the Biscay flight - my first Concorde flight, and of course, one of her last. There were few dry eyes when we landed, and it was awe-inspiring to see the ground crew lining the circumference of the airport. A high point of the day for me, too, was disembarking - having been prompted by my brother on my mob phone to "wave for the cameras" so that he and my kids would see me on TV, I provoked a completely unexpected cheer from the assembled crowd on the other side of the barrier - a great fellow-feeling at what was otherwise a pretty lowering moment. Will miss the beautiful girl terribly.

[Jordan D]

Why has AF been painted with the "Pause to Remember" if she isn't flying? This doesn't quite make sense.

Jordan

[BEagle]

Neither does much else about ba's mis-management right now....

[WOK]

This is thoroughly tedious.

If you wish to organise petitions, why not direct them at Airbus and AF?

There is NO WAY that BA can cause Concorde to continue beyond 31st October, only Airbus can permit that. Why the hell do you think it's being grounded just ahead of the (sold out 'til xmas) Barbados season?

Jeez, the information has been promulgated enough times.

[BEagle]

Well, the petition is now over 2500 strong.......

That's a fair few pounds lost to Skippy's airline if they're all as good as their word.

I am sorry that you feel the national outrage following ba's actions to be 'thoroughly tedious', WOK - but you're entitled to your opinion as much as everyone else is.

[PAXboy]

Why has AF been painted with the "Pause to Remember" if she isn't flying? This doesn't quite make sense. Because they might be decals and easily removable?
Because she might be flying to her retirement home on Remembrance Sunday?

[Jordan D]

Fair enough Paxboy ... what are decals btw?

Jordan

[cargosales]

Well, I was there and freely admit to having a big lump in my throat as they came in to land.

My twopennyworth on the big question emerging here: In my humble opinion, the beancounters have won out over the marketeers at BA. In a stroke, BA has become 'just another airline' and has removed itself from any aspect of 'aspiration' which it used to possess. I.e. whenever I saw Concorde I automatically thought of BA. [If I was French I guess I would have thought of Air France] I often dreamed of flying on Concorde but sadly never did. But it was an aspiration, and a reason to fly BA. Now there is none.

Branson reckons that the £2 million or so he is investing in Steve Fossett's round the world attempt will yield £60 million or so of free publicity for Virgin. Well, GOOD ON HIM for recognising the value of marketing. And SHAME on BA for ignoring the same.

I've not been a fan of BA for some time [ever since they became 'graffiti airways' with those silly tailschemes whilst still retaining the old BA arrogance as it happens but that's another story] but do they seriously expect me to now have the same loyalty to my 'national airline' as when they flew Concorde. I have news for them: "NO CHANCE MATE" as they might say Downunder. Sir Richard has the Union Jacks on his aircraft and that's where my money's going in future!

Incidentally, a question: whenever people see a Boeing 747 or Airbus A340 they say " there's a 747" or "there's an A340". Why, on seeing the Queen of the Skies did they say "there's Concorde" i.e. singular? [given 14 or so were built]?

CS

[shuttlebus]

Will be heading over to sign the petition after I log out here.

WOK... Sorry, but I feel that some blame can be laid at BA's door.

Unfortuantely, I know of another example were creative accounting has taken place. Up until about 2 years ago BA flew (as part of the UK shuttle service) a very successful LHR-BFS-LHR service. However, post 9/11 a claim that the route had lost x million pounds over the previous 4 years was cited as the reason for closure. BA was "sorry" that it was pulling out but in the economic climate... blah blah management buzzword buzzword buzzword... blah etc.

It later turned out that the route had always beeen profitable, only some beancounter (with a bean for a brain) decided that for people travelling to onward destinations ONLY £1, yes £1 would be allocated to the BFS-LHR sector!!!

Now I admit, the planes weren't always full but I can't seriously believe that they needed to be, IF the full fare had always been allocated to the correct sector. Needless to say BMI are now doing an absolute bomb (Sorry :-) on this sector and you need to book well in advance to get an economy fare...

So now I see all these "economic reasons" quotes from BA about Concorde and I begin to wonder, just wonder if they don't completely ring true. (Or maybe I am just too cynical :-)

Discuss.....


Regards,

Shuttlebus

P.S. If anyone owuld like to step in with any data on BFS-LHR (Not BA propaganda) please feel free.

P.S.S. I am not BA bashing or anti-BA, just putting out some facts :-)

[palmtree]

Have a look at the ba website www.ba.com they have a really good video clip of Concorde taking off....just to rub it in that they are the ones that decided to kill concorde off... customers... who needs them or their oppinions.... I bet in their alice in wonderland world they think its a really great clip just to keep reminding us all of what they have taken away from the world ... how about replacing it with a video of Skippy hopping back to Oz.... now thats something that would really make us all smile ......

[eddief]

What's *really* sad is not whether BA mis-judged the effect of their decision upon their own business - I couldn't give two hoots about what happens to them from now on - just another ex-state airline in a deep stall (Air France, watch this space).

No, what's really tragic, is that they have actively prevented anyone else from at least having a go at operating the Concorde fleet or trying to negotiate with Airbus, either for them to extend the Type Cert or to sell it on.

A year ago, this was a profitable aircraft with many years to run and the underlying facts and commercial opportunities have not changed in the meantime.

Commercially, it is only proper that BA has the freedom to choose what aircraft it operates and how, but what they have done here goes well beyond that.

[M.Mouse]

A year ago, this was a profitable aircraft with many years to run

Errr....no.

It was an icon, a wonderful but very old and increasingly difficult to maintain aircarft.

Do all the posters here, if they can manage to put aside their rose tinted spectacles and misconceptions influenced by pure romanticism, really believe that BA would have grounded the aircraft if it was such a surefire moneyspinner?

That is also ignoring the fact that AF/Airbus were intent on it ceasing operations.

[Unwell_Raptor]

I was talking to a Judge today at Isleworth Crown Court, and I was told that on Friday all of the court users and staff (except the ones in the cells!) were outside watching the birds come over.

[No comment]

Ok, albeit a few years ago, but this passage was in the back of an inflight publication given to me by someone who flew on Concorde. Its perhaps 6 years old and I know a lot has changed but its rather ironic reading now...

"In an era where the contours of the world map are changing and high-technology is taken for granted, Concorde remains, the indispensible link between Europe and North America, interpreted in a style and affording a service which are essentially British. Concorde's continuing success is assured.

British Airways looks forward to welcoming you on board in the future."

[BA@LHR]

Hi all,

I was at the end of 27R on Friday to see the 3 beautiful concordes land but also the Bay of Biscay take off, and was trying to listen on my scanner but (sod's law!!!!) batteries ran low! I have downloaded off of you fantastically generous people the transmitions for the 3 inbounds but not for the Biscay flight.

I was hoping that someone possibly recorded it as my sound was muffled but it sounded something along the lines of:

ATC: Speedbird Concorde 9020??, I was going to say that you look great out there today, but instead you look superb!

SST: Thank you etc......

If anyone could respond with a link etc. it would be hugely appreciated by me and others I imagine!

Kind regards

Oli

[eddief]

I thank M.Mouse for the feedback on my statement that Concordes were profitable and would respectfully point out that I would not consider myself to be in the rose-tinted spectacle camp ;o)

Certainly, there is no question that the aircraft are increasingly maintenance-intensive (particularly when compared with the newer breeds in service).

However, whilst I do not believe that BA would knowlingly throw away something that they considered to be profitable, the emphasis would be on the word 'knowingly'. BA has hardly dazzled me with its marketing wizardry and foresight over the past few years (trendy tail-art, obsession with business travellers whilst Easyjet et al take the low cost market away from them, etc).

At the end of the day, if these really were such a white elephant, why didn't they realise it before the expensive (and heavily publicised) refit and why aren't they being more candid about it in public - surely a bit of transparency would help get them out of the PR mess they're now in?

Regardless of all of the above, I think my main point remains valid - the type certificate may well have been up for grabs and somebody else may well have been able to keep them flying profitably (even just using up the remaining airframe life on experience flights if it had to come to that).

To their ever-lasting shame, BA (and AF) removed any chance of this even being a possibility.

[Porky Speedpig]

The BEagle seems obsessed with chasing the kangaroo but he and all the others who rant on about selling Concorde to Virgin seem to overlook the fac that a whole fleet of them have been available in France for 6 months now. Never once have we seen the beard offering 1 Euro, 1M Euro or whatever to M Spinetta and co. One can only draw the conclusion that he was more concerned with BA bashing than seriously operating the beast.

[ThermalUndies]

Jordan

"what are decals btw?"

Transfers - like you stick on your model concorde. :)

[Flying Lawyer]

Although I'm very disappointed by BA's decision to stop operating Concorde, and I think the refusal to allow Virgin to have the aircraft was wrong, I won't be signing the petition. It goes too far for me. I'm an admirer of both BA and Virgin, and fly both carriers - my choice based simply upon routes/schedules. I won't try to avoid flying BA because of my opinions on the two Concorde issue.

M. Mouse
I'm hesitant to question what you say because although I work closely with the industry, I'm not in it. I just wonder if you think anything I've said earlier in this thread is incorrect and, if so, what? I'm always prepared to learn.

Although the poster who said Concorde was profitable a year ago was wrong, he wasn't far out. The BA Concorde fleet was making a net profit of about £3 million a month before the Paris crash. It's been losing money since. If you were disagreeing with his assertion it had "many years to run", I suppose it depends what each of you mean by "many". I don't under-estimate the cost implications of the aircraft getting older.

I don't think anyone has gone as far as saying Concorde would have been a "surefire moneyspinner" if it had continued. However, there are people in your company who aren't looking through 'rose tinted spectacles', and aren't basing their opinions on 'misconceptions influenced by pure romanticism', who believe it could have been turned into a financial success again - either by BA or by Virgin.

It's not difficult to see why Air France wanted to cease operations. The AF Concorde fleet was never run as profitably as BA's, and was losing money. AF is in difficulty. The French government owns just over 50% of AF, and wants to reduce that to less than 25%. Watch what happens in the next few months. AF will either privatise or be forced to form an alliance with another European carrier - KLM, also in difficulty, is a strong possibility. Whichever solution AF pursues, it has to strip its loss-making elements. Many thought BA would have to drop Concorde when it was preparing to privatise but, instead, it was transformed in just two years into a highly profitable fleet which made enormous profits for BA for almost 20 years.

I've no doubt AF would have hated BA carrying on - we remember what happened when BA kept flying after the French Concorde was grounded - but that would not have been a determining factor.
However, your assertion that Airbus was also determined that BA should cease operations is an over-statement, if what I've been told by informed sources within BA is correct. I posted my understanding of the negotiations earlier and won't repeat them here. Is your understanding differerent? And, if so, on what basis?

I hope you won't find my questions/points irritating. I stress I'm anxious to learn and, if you've got time to read what I posted earlier, I'd be very interested to know where you say I've got it wrong.

[Hand Solo]

This has got to be becoming one of the most tedious, circular and outright ill-informed threads on PPRuNe in recent history!

I am sorry that you feel the national outrage following ba's actions
There is no national outrage BEagle. Just yours, a few other ill-informed individuals and Bransons faux-outrage. Child murders cause national outrage. Aircraft retirements cause upset. As for the petition, 'I promise to look at other airlines to BA'!? Yeah right, unless they're more expensive, or inconvenient. or third world, but thats OK because I don't actually have to feel guilty when I do fly BA. Can't see the City being worried.


Cargosales:
Well, GOOD ON HIM for recognising the value of marketing. And SHAME on BA for ignoring the same
Do you think BA supported Concorde during its many loss making years out of ineptitude. Do you think the Concorde model outside LHR just appeared by magic? And on the subject of those tailfins, that decision was reversed in 2001 and 80% of the fleet bear the union flag design. What do you want, blood? And don't forget to check out how many of your 'national flag carrier's aircraft are Icelandic registered.

shuttlebus:
Your info on the BFS route is wrong. Revenue for onward flights was allocated according to the percentage of total mileage flown, just like every other BA shorthaul route. Not fair, but thats the way it goes. If you want creative accounting then remember that for years Concordes entire fuel bill was tagged onto the 737 fleet at LGW. 120000 tonnes of fuel costs per year would make Concordes profits less impressive.


eddief:
if these really were such a white elephant, why didn't they realise it before the expensive (and heavily publicised) refit

Because Sept 11th, the stock market crash and Foot and Mouth all happened after the refit began. Along with most of the other things which have decimated the premium travel market.

I think my main point remains valid - the type certificate may well have been up for grabs
With all due respect, your main point was never valid in any way. The CAA said no to non-BA Concorde operations. Airbus said non to BA operations. The type certificate was never up for grabs in any way. How often does this need to be repeated? Branson would never have operated a commercial flight on Concorde. He would simply have been handed a superb PR coup - a Concorde dressed up in Virgin colours, for £1, which he would never fly. There are people who say BA should have called his bluff. For what purpose? It was never going to fly, so why grant him yet more free PR opportunities?

[shuttlebus]

Hand Solo et al,

I can only apolgise... I posted what I believed to be correct. (And based my comments on that info) The info was passed to me when BA stopped flying.

Like flying lawyer I am always prepared to learn.... the truth is out there!

I hope no offence was taken.

Regards,

Shuttlebus

Came back to edit this, as I had a look over in the "Concorde fleet rebellion" thread. Some good reasons for retirement...

[Heliport]

Hand Solo

Not taking sides in the discussion, just a request for information:

You say "The CAA said no to non-BA Concorde operations."

I haven't heard or read that before. What's your source?

[eddief]

Like everyone on this forum, I certainly don't want to fuel any angst or frustration but I am desparately keen to find out the *facts* so that I can try to understand what has happened - God knows, I'm going to be a whole lot happier if somebody can convince me that this was actually necessary.

I too had not heard that the CAA had stated that they would only support operation of Concordes by BA and find that to be very interesting indeed - surely a point that BA would have done well to shout loudly about?

I'm certainly not at all convinced that Airbus is in a position to 'pull' their support of a Type Cert without a major battle but then, that's probably a different thread altogether.

Anyway, if anyone knows more, please post it here - I'll try to keep my head down for a while so that others can have their say.

Thanks to those who have contributed so far and best wishes to all.

[Hand Solo]

Heliport - the sources were within BA from a department that has very close links with the CAA. To be honest, their position looks pretty clear-cut even without that info. To issue the CofA and add the type to Virgins AOC they'd need to prove, amongst other things:

1) They had pilots, currently qualified, and a training and checking infrastructure. This would mean poaching current active BA or AF pilots. Highly unlikely.

2) They had Flight Engineers, qualified as above. Virgin may have had some success with this, but whether they'd find enough?

3) They had sufficient engineering support and qualified engineers and technicians, with the knowledge and expertise to operate an aircraft which is far more complex and labour intensive than any commercial aircraft flying today. Again, they'd need to poach pretty much the entire BA engineeering team to achieve this. Thats unlikely, and if they couldn't achieve this then the only other way would be to start afresh with intensive manufacturer support, which Airbus weren't willing to provide.

Those are three massive obstacles to Virgin ever flying the aircraft. Concorde was the most heavily scrutinised aircraft within BA, and many people seriously underestimate the level of knowledge, expertise and labour required to keep it flying. Virgin could never achieve that level, and the CAA knew it.

[Heliport]

Hand Solo

Thanks. It seems a pity neither BA nor the CAA made the CAA's position public when, if true, it would have been a complete answer to people criticising BA for not allowing Virgin to operate Concorde. :confused:

On your first point, do BA and Virgin have the same retirement age for pilots?

Interesting discussion - more information seems to be emerging on this thread than in some previous threads.

[Jordan D]

Thanks for the info on what decals are ....

I have to agree with some of what's been said about Virgin, BA, AF, Airbus & Concorde.

I think now is the time to stop, remember, and let the old bird rest in peace.

Jordan

[Heliport]

Bye Jordan, see you on another thread.

[Unwell_Raptor]

Couldn't Branson just buy the plastic Concorde from the end of the tunnel?

By the way, what's going to happen to Speedbird One/ It's one helluva callsign.

[priscilla]

Don't forget to sign the petition on
www.saveconcord.co.uk !

[CaptainFillosan]

Hand Solo

I cannot agree with all you say - you show too much dogma. Bit like showing a sock with holes in it.

I am certain it WOULD have been possible for Virgin to operate Concorde.

Why could Virgin NOT do it when BA had to demonstrate that they could - right at the beginning? It was a fresh AOC then and much has been learned since. Poaching would probably have not have been an issue. I think pilots and engineers would have been more than willing to leave BA. The estimate that Concorde could have flown on for another, what was it, 10 or more years would have suited many of them rather than stay with BA.

I personally know two Concorde pilots who are disgusted with the treatment they have received by BA management. A classically bad management over the past 20/30 years! I can re-call one very senior manager who was pushed - only to get himself a job running the London Underground. He was sacked from that job too. Sort of proves he couldn't run anything below ground let alone above ground.

The AOC and all other situations could easily have been resolved if BA had been willing to hand over the operation to Virgin. If all matters per the relevant CAP were in place the CAA are not very well placed to object are they. Their function is to ensure that the operation is properly conducted in all areas of operation. Virgin are well placed. They have a superb infrastructure, and they know how to operate aeroplanes and have a brilliant record doing it - AND they are profitable. The CAA would not, and could not, ignore that. You seem to suggest they could. Not true!

There WAS a way, in spite of Airbus, who would have had a mighty sword with RB inscribed on it hanging over them if a deal had been struck. AF was just an excuse. They are so poorly run that their demise was almost a certainty, and I would take a bet that they engineered an altruistic deal to kill Concorde. The link with KLM was their only way out but Concorde was in the way.

However, what was needed, and was never a runner, was BA to have binned it's absolute dislike of RB and Virgin and let RB get on with it - even with their assistance. They would have made some money too. But............while Marshall and King are pulling the puppet's strings it was NEVER an option. They could not be seen to help RB after their exposed "Dirty Tricks" campaign against Virgin yet they were the villains of the act. Pity the two of them couldn't show some remorse and got together with RB who has always been willing to do that.

It isn't too late now but leopards spots and all that..............

[PAXboy]

By the way, what's going to happen to Speedbird One/ It's one helluva callsign. This refers to the flight, not the operating a/c. So, if BA reuse the flight number, one can presume that they will use the call sign. I doubt it.

[palmtree]

Thanks, Priscilla, for the save concorde web address.... but I think it should have had an "e" on the end of the word Concord... so the adress is www.saveconcorde.co.uk

Clearly you must be very old and remember the days before Concorde was called Concorde and just called Concord!!! (you may even remember Millibars before the Frogs insisted they were called Hectopascales after the Great Frog of the same name.)

As everyone knows, the UK designed it and its engines, but in order to get the Frogs in we had to agree that the name would be spelt the French way.....with an E. And of course we gave them all the technology etc etc ....

So nothing changed in all those years ... They don't fly it, we don't fly it... they say NON, we agree.....

:p

[Budgie69]

Could Concorde's untimely demise be caused by the fact that 4 engines in reheat are a much more tempting SAM target than the comparatively cool exhaust of a modern large fan?

[PPRuNe Dispatcher]

On April 25th 2001, three PPRuNers were fortunate enough to have a close look at G-BOAF and G-BOAG. I took photographs which are now up on my website.

Concorde pics (http://www.vampireparrot.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=Concorde)

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

This Friday, G-BOAC was due to fly to Manchester for permanent display. Anyone know if this is still planned to happen, and what time?

SSD

[Flying Lawyer]

After my rather serious posts on this topic, the least I could do was post something I hope will make you smile.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2003/10/25/matt.gif

In 'anorak' mode. http://www.vampireparrot.com/albums/Concorde/scan0033.thumb.jpg
I tried hard to get that stupid grin off my face but for some reason it wouldn't go. :D

[BahrainLad]

Thanks for those wonderful photos of Alpha Golf (my personal fave ;) ) in the hangar.

From every angle she looks perfect: the ultimate embodiment of form and function. "If it looks right, it'll fly right."

Tony Benn on the Last Day:

"If you showed it to someone who knew no better and told them that it was the latest thing........they'd believe you."

[BEagle]

FL - I have a picture of a rather younger Tudor at RAF Newton pre-flighting hs Chippie about 31 years ago. With the same familiar grin on his face.....

Donations to the PPRuNe fund might prevent its publication....

[Unwell_Raptor]

Put me down for a tenner to see it.

[Daifly]

A friend of a friend with (and you'll have to trust me on this one) excellent contacts says that the one thing BA never mentioned, and if it's true good on them, that on Sept 11th as the Twin Towers fell over 50% of BA's top pre-2000 100 Concorde travellers lost their lives.

If I was reading this I'd go "yeah, right, BA propoganda", but this came from a far more "regulatory" source and I'm inclined to believe it when one thinks of the likes of Cantor Fitzgerald with their World HQ in NYC and their International HQ in London. I think I'm right in that they were the main employers of the Brits there?

In the face of that, combined with the spectre of the 2000 crash, it's easy to see, to those with no long term financial view, that the prospects were difficult.

Though I think they should have given it more of a shot than they all have.

[Hand Solo]

CaptainFillosan, allow me to point out the rather large holes in your sock, errrr, I mean argument.

Why could Virgin NOT do it when BA had to demonstrate that they could - right at the beginning? It was a fresh AOC then and much has been learned since

Indeed it was a fresh AOC then, and the AOC was earned off the back of tens of millions (in old money) of government funding. Funding that is not available today. Furthermore, much of what has been learned since then will be lost unless Airbus play ball, and they've clearly stated they won't.

I think pilots and engineers would have been more than willing to leave BA. The estimate that Concorde could have flown on for another, what was it, 10 or more years

Flight Engineers, yes. Senior Captains close to retirement, maybe. FOs, no way. 10 or more years? The oldest aircraft are due some very heavy maintenance from 2007 I think. Virgin certainly can't afford that.

I personally know two Concorde pilots who are disgusted with the treatment they have received by BA management
Well they'll be in good company with the hordes of subsonic BA pilots who feel the same way. Never seen one resign yet.

The AOC and all other situations could easily have been resolved if BA had been willing to hand over the operation to Virgin

What, you mean all the maintenance assets we've developed and paid for ourselves? What about the engineers and mechanics? Do you think they might have something to say about being transferred to Virgin (unless you expect BA to continue paying them whilst they work for VS). How do we then work with the shortfall of engineers who worked on Concorde and other BA aircraft?

Virgin are well placed. They have a superb infrastructure

Yes, its a third party contractor and Dublin is a lovely place.

There WAS a way, in spite of Airbus, who would have had a mighty sword with RB inscribed on it hanging over them if a deal had been struck.

A mighty sword with RB inscribed on it? Please, lets keep some sense of perspective here. Virgin have , what, about 14 long haul Airbuses, and 5 or 6 A380s on order? They hardly constititute a mighty customer compared to Emirates, Cathay, Air France, Gulf Air, Northwest, Air Canada, Lufthansa, FedEx, ILFC etc. etc.. BA themselves have 60 A320 series with a significant requirement for 767 replacements, not to mention the Concorde fleet and they couldn't sway Airbus.

However, what was needed, and was never a runner, was BA to have binned it's absolute dislike of RB and Virgin and let RB get on with it

Do you think that could, or indeed should, happen when RB uses practically every breathe of oxygen he gets to knock BA? This is business after all.

You say I show too much dogma, I beg to differ. If RB, and a willing consortium, can find the funds to keep a Concorde flying in a heritage role then I'm all for it. As a real enthusiast I'll even stump up a healthy donation myself. But if you believe that there was ever any prospect of any other operator running commercial Concorde operations then you are just deluding yourself. Concorde has always been an expensive political beast. BA have been defeated by a combination of economic and political hurdles, and even if somebody could overcome those you can be sure that new hurdles would mysteriously appear. Sadly the old birds been done for by politics, and no amount of goodwill, TV bleating or cynical self-promotion will overcome that.

[digidave]

PPrune Dispatcher,

Many thanks for posting your pics.

Views of the bird I'd never seen before - what a work of art!

To say I think you and your cohorts are lucky bar stewards would be an understatement - but thanks again :ok:

dd

[Max Angle]

that on Sept 11th as the Twin Towers fell over 50% of BA's top pre-2000 100 Concorde travellers lost their lives. Ex BA Ops. Director Jock Lowe made this point during a TV interview last week, he said that 40 (I think that was the number) of Concorde's most frequent flyers lost their lives in the twin towers.

[Polly Gnome]

He also said that the 40 people who sadly lost their lives were senior executives who could give approval for others to fly on Concorde. The knock-on effect is therefore greater.

[Alty Meter]

Interesting you mention Jock Lowe. He was on the Concorde fleet for 25 years, ended up as Chief Pilot of BA and Commercial Director Concorde before he retired.
Nobody knows more about the financial challenges of operating Concorde profitably and he doesn't agree with BA's decision.

[BahrainLad]

But for christ's sake, for the nth time, it's not BA's decision!

Airbus have pulled the plug. Why else would BA have already sold this winter's BGI services? They were surprised, that's why.

The decision was sprung upon them. There was no "plan to get rid of Concorde" within BA as some of you claim.

[eddief]

I think it unlikely that we (or anyone) will ever be able to get one, definitive version of what really happened but the reason we're so interested and so passionate is because we love the old girl and can't bear to let her go.

Let's try to affect the things that still might be affected by public opinion and common sense (the two do occasionally coincide) and focus on ways of keeping at least one flying in (at least) a heritage role.

Over on www.concordesst.com (http://pub13.ezboard.com/bconcordesst) they have come to much the same conclusion and seem to be progressing well (some threads are still dragging over the coals but there are quite a few that are moving forward).

The odds are that pretty much everyone here who's *really* into Concorde will already know about their efforts (they're probably not alone either) but I have shared the information here in case anyone was not aware.

[Alty Meter]

I don't think there was a "plan to get rid of Concorde" within BA. Agree.

"The decision was sprung upon them." No. Suddenly being forced to make a decision one way or the other was sprung on BA.

"Airbus pulled the plug." No. BA made a commercial decision not to pay the £10m a year Airbus wanted for support due Concorde losing money for the last couple of years.

Maybe right or maybe shortsighted, but that was BA's decision!

[BahrainLad]

Sorry Alty Meter, your post is absolute rubbish.

Retiring Concorde has resulted in £84 million write-off costs for the year ending March 2003. According to your good self, that would have paid for at least 6 years of continued Concorde operation. I don't think so...............

The figure Airbus wanted was pitched at the level as to make it unachieveable. The French bottled it, Air France is being privatised, Airbus is a French company (no matter what BAE think) and there was no way that Airbus was going to allow BA to become the only supersonic airline in the world. After all, in 5 years the economy would have picked up and BA holding out would have been seen as a prudent decision whilst making Air France look extremely stupid.

What you are essentially arguing is that BA spent more money on cancelling her than would have taken to keep her alive. Not a tenable position methinks!

[George Tower]

Listening to the argument put forward by BA for the withdrawl of Concorde from service it appears to be very much a case of "blame Airbus".

Were BAE systems approached about keeping Concorde flying directly without the input of Airbus? I mean I'm sure that BAE would be open to negotiation given that we have virtually ceased manufacturing our own aircraft in this country. John Hutchinson actually made this point as part of the BBCs coverage but other than that I have heard no other suggestions about over coming this probelm.

[EGCC4284]

It has been confirmed that one of British Airways Concorde
will be returning to Manchester to be eventually displayed
in the aviation viewing park area as a museum piece.

Rumour has it that it may be returning on Friday the 31st October.

Does anyone know what date and if possible what time the aircraft may be intending to return to her retirement home
as the chance to see this piece of history land one final time
is something that should be experienced.

Can I also ask the moderators to consider possibly leaving
this post on the Rumours and News forum so as to have
more chance being seen by someone in the know who can
shed light on this question.

Regards EGCC 4284.

[Heliport]

What you are essentially arguing is that BA spent more money on cancelling her than would have taken to keep her alive. Not a tenable position methinks!

BahrainLad
Isn't that one of the points the pro-Concorde lobby in BA made?

[qwerty2]

Planned arrival about 1100 on Friday.
BA to make an announcement tomorrow.

[BahrainLad]

No. That point has never been made because it's incorrect. What's important to remember is that the numbers that Airbus discussed were not even unrealistic, they were impossible. The numbers that they wanted were designed to make sure that BA could never accept them....also, they kept changing........always in the upwards direction.

Pro-Concorde people in BA have lamented the fact that a successful operation with many years of life left to run has been prematurely brought to an end becuase 50% of the required total to run the operation have removed themselves.

Why have the French removed themselves? Lack of will after Paris; lack of business following that ludicrous "Freedom Fries" boycott; shedding of unprofitable units prior to privatisation/KLM-takeover; historical contrast of US corporate offices in Paris as opposed to London......the reasons go on and on.

But the fact remains that BA wanted to operate to 2007 (the planned Re-Life date), this was substantially reduced in April......Airbus wanted to cancel all Concorde services (of both airlines) there and then....Air France were in the middle of a C check and BA were about to order the mod parts for AA and AB. BA fought tooth and nail to be allowed to fly until October.

To me that doesn't sound like an airline that wanted to get rid of their flagship.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I was out of the UK at the time of the last flights so I was pretty disappointed to miss them. I've seen an ad in the papers for Concorde prints signed by Jock Lowe but is there anything similar available through PPrune like the TSR2 prints? I'd rather donate my pension money to a deserving cause.

Thanks

[Evening Star]

I've seen an ad in the papers for Concorde prints signed by Jock Lowe but is there anything similar available through PPrune like the TSR2 prints?

Seconded.

Ditched work last Friday to get home to watch the telly. I know it is not the done thing for a grown man, and an Englishman stiff upper lip and all that, to cry, but allowed myself a tear for the finale.:{ :{

[zygote]

Does anyone know where all the AF and BA Concordes will end up including GBOAA and GBOAB which I understand are no longer airworthy.

[BRISTOLRE]

NEWS EXPECTED FROM BA TODAY, A BIG ANNOUNCEMENT on where aircraft will go.
BBC News suggested at 5pm yesterday that BA had made up their minds already and that it was definite no Concorde would be kept flying. All to Museums etc.

So far it looks like..
AA- Poss retain at LHR for T5
AB- Poss To East Fortune, Scotland
AC- Manchester viewing park
AD- New York City "Intrepid" floating barge
AE- Seattle Boeing Musuem Flight
AF- Bristol, Filton "Pause to Remember" titles added recently
AG- private Collector / Consortium Barbados BGI

This will ALL be confirmed by a British Airways press announcement TODAY.

[DamienB]

BRISTOLRE - 'AF has had the poppy logo etc. stripped off already.

[Jordan D]

Why were the titles added then? Was it for publicity shots?

Jordan

[gordonroxburgh]

Just a few deatils

I think AA and AB will be the other way round

G-BOAA- Poss To East Fortune, Scotland
G-BOAB- Poss retain at LHR for T5

BA have put AB back together so would not be doing this if it was going to be taken apart again!

[EGCC4284]

Due to land at 10:45am @ EGCC ???????

[BRISTOLRE]

Thks for the update folks.
Thats the reason why I put "poss" as possibly...
Didnt know status of reassembly AA/AB - would make good sense not to tear it down again.

Strange to have those "Pause to remember" titles on then off again... wierd. Maybe it was only for photos & publicity.

1245z and still no announcement from BA.... waiting....

[gordonroxburgh]

Announcement is expected at 15:00Z from BA

[Seloco]

BA Press release now available here: http://www.britishairways.com/press/?source=RHG_press_en

sadly confirms no Concorde will be kept flying.

[Krystal n chips]

Am I alone, ( probably I am ) in being aware of the irony of a Concorde being located at Manchester ------next to a Hangar that was formerly occupied by BA Engineering--not to mention the people that were made redundant from the facility. Still, another PR coup for all those concerned no doubt.

[no sponsor]

Seems a little ironic to me that two should be located in the US.

[NineEighteen]

“We have chosen the final homes based a number of criteria: their ability to properly exhibit and preserve the aircraft, their geographical location and accessibility to the public.

“We are working closely with each of the new homes to make sure they show off each Concorde at her best.”
I'm glad to see that in the press release. I don't really mind where they stand, as long as they're looked after. :(

[Seloco]

Having missed last Friday's excitement and emotion by being out of the country, I do hope that BA will give due notice of the departures of the airworthy aircraft.

That absolutely last, final take-off will be a real moment to savour, and a good reason to bring LHR to a brief but respectful halt.

I rather hope that it will be in the dark, so that we can see those four reheated Olympuses in all their full and final glory!

[Zoom]

Cargosales (from page 25)

Why Concorde without any definite or indefinite articles? Probably because it adds to the mystique and the uniqueness, etc, etc. 'I fly Concorde' sounds cool, whereas 'I fly Jumbo'.................hmmm!

But the RAF went all daft a while back when they stopped talking about the Lightning, or Lightnings, the Phantom, or Phantoms, etc, and introduced Jaguar, and then Tornado, and now Typhoon. Pompous or what? :yuk:

[Anti-ice]

Concorde retirement homes announced

British Airways today announced the locations where it intends to retire its fleet of Concordes after commercial services ended at London Heathrow last Friday afternoon.

Final negotiations are under way to house the seven Concordes in the British Airways’ fleet at the following locations:

· Airbus UK, Filton Bristol
· Manchester Airport
· Museum of Flight, near Edinburgh
· Heathrow Airport
· The Museum of Flight, Seattle, US
· The Intrepid Sea, Air and Space Museum, New York, US
· Grantley Adams Airport, Bridgetown, Barbados

Well its good to see 4 remain in the UK, but access???

East Fortune? - Bristol? , and (no doubt) airside at LHR and MAN ?

I really would have hoped that such a formidable machine would have been placed better - and with good access for all- than these locations.
I hope the one at LHR at least is well placed , as this was her rightful home where she was much loved and looked after.

As for one going to Barbados , really , although she flew there, how many will have the opprtunity to see her??

Also , technically , once they are there , they are there for life.

Again , sad that one can't remain flying.

Though this may shut a certain persons mouth at last (after jumping on the publicity wagon again ), with Airbus' announcement : "Airbus has said that they are unable to support such a project, whether it be for British Airways or anyone else.":p

[MerchantVenturer]

Anti-ice

The plan is for the Filton Concorde to be exhibited with the Bristol Aero Collection.

The site is accessible being near a main line railway station (Bristol Parkway) and within a couple of miles of the junctions of the M 4 and M 5 motorways.

You say the one at LHR is well placed because this is her rightful home.

Well the British Concordes were all born at Filton, so I cannot think this location has any less claim to be being Concorde's rightful home than LHR.

If you don't like some of the UK locations where would you have sent them?

[BRISTOLRE]

Sad indeed to hear that one will NOT be kept flying.

Lets hope there is just as much support, photographers, enthusiasts and local congestion at LHR when the final one departs LHR for its "new home" whenever that may be.

That will be the VERY LAST CHANCE EVER to savour this delight slipping away as we speak. So god damn sad.

The LHR home will probably be inside T5 as construction of the final building gets underway. 'tween now and then it will probably be in on of the LHR Eastside blocks where nobody except can staff can get to see it.

[timbo04]

Anti-ice - what are you talking about?

What is wrong with East Fortune? Is it because it is in Scotland?

East Fortune is an excellent museum located 3-5 minutes drive from the A1 (which if you are not familiar with it is the main route to Scotland) and 20 minutes drive from the capital and within easy reach of Glasgow.

I am really pleased East Fortune has been selected - it is a disused airbase with loads of atmosphere and excellent facilities. I only wish Concorde could have flown in - I still rememeber the Vulcan coming in which was some sight.

[HZ123]

09.55 Friday 31 October

G-BOAC will depart from T/1 LHR to MAN

[mainecoon]

plan i understand includes low approach and go around into the circuit at manchester which would be nice

[shuttlebus]

SO far, I haven't heard anything about Concorde going into T5. (And I can guarantee it won't be going on the roof !!!)

Regards,

Shuttlebus

[Headset starter]

Can anyone actually confirm a time when le Conc is due to arrive tomorrow - need to organise my aircraft boardings (yawn) around it.

Cheers

HS

[david.porter9]

I'd like to see Concorde depart LHR tomorrow morning - any advice on the best place to view?

Thanks, Dave.

[Max Angle]

plan i understand includes low approach and go around into the circuit at manchester which would be nice Of course what it really should include is a balls out, re-heats on beat up down 24R at 100ft, what a sight and what a noise that would be. Come on boys, they can only sack you!.

[EGCC4284]

If the winds are easterly and Manchester are using 06 right, will they switch to 06 left for the landing or stick with 06 right?????

[stormin norman]

Come on boys, they can only sack you!.

Heard that a crew were admonished for standing on the wing for a photo last week, So what chance a low flypast ? .....none!

[BRISTOLRE]

Folks, the follwing planned as follows for today :-
***************************************

BA9020 etd LHR 1011z eta MAN 1035z G-BOAC
LHR currently on Westerlies departing 27R until 1500z.
Best place the northern perimeter rd, Bath Road or Colnbrook bridge over the M25.

Monday 03 NOV should see AE departing for Seattle via JFK.
Planned departure is 1500z ex-LHR on Monday 03NOV.

[Basil]

Just gone over the top of Marlow @ 1030

[no sponsor]

Looks like AD will be completely knackered after a few years sitting on a barge:

http://www.intrepidmuseum.org/programs_concorde.html

Can't quite see how this would meet BA's claims of 'being properly preserved'.

[ThermalUndies]

Apologies if this has been asked before but what are the French doing with theirs? Holding back and then announcing their own private Concorde airline by any chance. :)

Of course they could always merge with Virgin. Now that would be fun. :D

[davethelimey]

Air France stopped flying Concorde on May 10th (correct me if I'm wrong someone).

As to what happened to the rest of them, I leave it to another knowledgeable member.

(tee hee... member)

Sorry.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I watched the arrival of G-BOAC at Manch this morning. Realising they were on 06, I cycled the few miles from home to adjacent 06R, near the Bollin Valley. There's an embankment there by a footpath that overlooks the entire airfield. She came on frequency using Concorce AC call sign. We got a splendid view of the entire approach, though her touch down was past where we were standing, it was all in view. Very dissapointed in no go-around - but they landed her on 06L, and quite a queue of departures had built up. If they'd landed her on 06R, maybe she could have done a low approach and go-around, right turnout, and re-position for a 06L (or R) touchdown without holding up the outbounds any more than she did with her simple landing today.

Anyone know what they are going to do with her in the immediate future? I heard rumours that they are going to remove the engines. Why? They are no good for anything else.

SSD

[no sponsor]

All the Frech Concordes have had similar fates to those prescribed for BAs. One went to Airbus France, another across the pond, one to a German Museum, one at Le Bourget, the other at Charles de Gaulle. I'm not sure where the others went, but none have flown since their final positioning flights.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/388080/M/

The BBC indicated that this afternoon, engineers on the BA conc at Manchester would begin to dismantle her engines, and she would no longer be airworthy by the end of today.

I presume BA will keep all the engines just to make sure no-one else could get their hands on them.

[Curious Pax]

Shaggy,
I also saw it land today - sad to think I'll never see it fly again. I think the queue of outbounds at the hold for 06L were largely there at their own request, as the KLM 737 at the head of the queue thanked ATC for allowing them to wait! A bit like its visit last week when several aircraft were unwilling to cross 06L having landed on 06R until after the old girl had landed past them.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I'd have though they could ensure she never flys again without resorting to engine removal.

I expect there may be few bits BA want back - the radios, for instance, are presumably usable elswhere. But it will be a pity if they strip her and we end up with a shell with perhaps one or two set of cabin seats in, some of the cockpit fittings gone, and daylight shining through from intakes to tail pipes where the engines should be. Just wouldn't be the same as having her in 'operational' (if disabled) condition.

SSD

[Mark139]

Just got an email inviting me to the auction of Concorde bits on Dec 1st. See
www.bonhams.com/concorde

An engine would be nice :)

Cheers

[BahrainLad]

Bizarrely, I understand that under some ridiculous law, the engine intake control computers are still classified as a UK State Secret......and therefore have to be removed to prevent those devious Russkies getting their hands on them!

[Crepello]

There was a French Concorde at IAD on Aug 31st. (Together with a DC3 and the prototype 707 - three generations of aviation firsts).

I hope at least one will be kept intact with engines, avionics etc.

Gutting to see these fine aircraft on barges. Part of me wishes they'd been cremated with dignity.

[Tony_EM]

I watched the take off today from the North Perimeter.
Having seen so many from airside over the years, I wasn't expecting to get such a lump in the throat this time...

The conditions were ideal (apart from night-time TOs which are something else), but the humidity was perfect for seeing the huge overwing vortices. The fence I was clinging onto vibrated along with my chest.

How I'll miss that feeling.

[bagpuss lives]

There were no signs of any work being carried out on 'AC as I left work a little while ago - indeed the aircraft was still parked nicely at the bottom of the cul-de-sac surrounded by amazed MAPLc employees and bollards :)

My understanding is that the aircraft will be towed along to reside on taxiway Bravo for the weekend (it may already be there as I type as I'm not sure how long apron control could do without stands 16 - 1).

After that 'AC will, it is rumoured, by moved into one of the hangars for what has officially been called "component recovery" and whilst it awaits the creation of its new home - a glass hangar construction connected to the Engine Test Bay.

It's been a great day today - but as I've said before - a sad one too. There will surely never be an aircraft again that will command such respect and awe - and one that can bring a major international airport to a complete and utter, silent standstill.

RIP Concorde.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I was listening to a recording of the RT of Concorde 2 coming into Heathrow last Friday. Captain Bannister was asking Air Traffic for the preferred landing times for the 3 Concordes, and said that company had asked that none landed 'on the hour'. Before the hour, or after, was OK, but not on the hour.

Why was that?

SSD

[refplus20]

Anybody else heard the latest conspiracy theory from inside 'Rod Airways'? Apparently in retaliation for Britain’s non-compliance with the French over the invasion of Iraq, they were to make sure that there was no chance of their (i.e. BAs) Concordes ever flying again, the French having made their decision already. This came from an insider very close to Concorde and the dates seem to fit and it worked!!!!

I think it would have stopped commercial flying anyway, but maybe just one could have been kept airworthy if there would have been component manufacturer’s support.

RIP good buddy.

:* :* :*

[bagpuss lives]

Shaggy Sheep Driver - was it something to do with the BBC TV coverage of the event? Perhaps the news was due then as it normally is - or something along those lines.

[Crepello]

Pure conjecture, but I wondered if:

- A Conc lands precisely on the hour - onlookers applaud with rapture.
- A Conc lands seconds off the hour - onlookers assume it was aiming for the hour but missed the target.
- All Concs land several minutes from the hour - the issue doesn't arise.

[ID90]

Does anyone know if the G-BOAC's positioning flight to MAN carried any passengers - staff or press perhaps?

[racasanman]

Lots of people in brand new , shiny, hi-vis tabards milling around Concorde this afternoon but B A staff not allowed near (except to tow it away).The shuttle captain taking capt. Bannister back to
Heathrow told us that he was not allowed to take a look but we watched other airline staff and maplc staff hanging about the aircraft .BA organised nothing for BA staff at Manchester today.We felt like we weren't invited to the party,typical BA.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

niteflite01 - nothing to do with Beeb coverage.

ID90 - yes, according to http://www.concordesst.com/home.html, 82 passengers were on the flight. They were members of the BA Concorde family who are being carried on the ferry flights to thank them and their families for the commitment to the aircraft since its entry into service with the airline.

Nice to be aboard, but nicer if you get to be on one of the transatlantic deliveries, rather than a 30 minute sub-sonic lob into Manch...

SSD

[Tony_EM]

Heard a rumour that it was full of BA staff, but source was a fellow gawper with a tranny.

It was certainly light as it rotated about halfway down the Novembers and was airborne before the mail shed. Certainly light fuel of course, but really no idea on pax.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

BA organised nothing for BA staff at Manchester today.We felt like we weren't invited to the party,typical BA.

Yeah, know how you feel. My invite to the festivities must have got delayed by the postal strike.... :)

Still, I'm sure there were plenty of Aldermen, Councillors, public worthies, and other hangers-on to sup my share of the champers:(

SSD

[HZ123]

So there was hardly anyone of the BA staff at LHR invited in fact they were excluded in the main.

The sponsor was MACH 111 from Gillete the SSC could have provided billions of razor blades.

[GrantT]

I didn't realise it was Mike Bannister who flew her into EGCC, when she parked up opposite the viewing area i couldn't get a good view, all the parents with their bratty kids were in the way.

[ECWK]

My children thoroughly enjoyed the event - and are the future air travellers who will help pay GrantT's pension or wages. Try not to discourage them might be a good idea, or are you too short to look over their heads ?

Pity no flyby.

[GrantT]

My children thoroughly enjoyed the event

Good.

and are the future air travellers who will help pay GrantT's pension or wages.

Hopefully.

Try not to discourage them might be a good idea, or are you too short to look over their heads?

No, i am actually taller than 3ft.

What annoyed me were people who generally don't give a toss came to see it and in doing so took up all the parking spaces, got all the best viewing areas and when she went out of sight just pissed off. I heard a woman behind me say "I didn't know it was coming until i heard it on the breakfast news". :rolleyes:

I know it's a selfish attitude, but it's true.

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=175266

RIP :(

[BahrainLad]

Oh come on, that's not really fair.

Concorde's ultimate appeal is that it appeals to everyone; especially those who have absolutely no interest whatsover in any other aspect of aviation.

So what if they only heard about it on the morning news? I only heard about it yesterday......and I'm a PPruner! And when you say that they ******ed off immediately that it had gone from sight, what did you expect them to do?

Or are you upset they didn't ask you how to disassemble an Olympus 593?

:mad:

[ECWK]

I understand your frustration but some of those kids will remember the lucky half-term day (when Dad/Mum ran out of other ideas) for many years, and tell their children about Concorde. With any luck they will also see your magnificent photograph (and DamienB's) and wish there had been another way to continue the story.

My story will relate to GA days and the time I was cleared in 'No 2 to Concorde' while right base for 24 , in someone else's Piper.

This time, we were out alongside 06R, an older couple lent my son their digital binoculars and kept us informed of progress. It was cold and windswept but an excellent vantage point for approach and touchdown. I must admit I wanted to avoid the crowd indoors.

[dh108]

Went to see G-BOAC yesterday. Doesn't look right, all these podgy widebodies waddling past this grounded sleek white swan. Anyway, a harassed mum with an excited brood passed by - her daughter, about 10, took one look and said : 'Concorde's wicked!' I'm pretty cold about planes in general, but I thought she summed it up better than I ever could.

[EGCC4284]

Just before she goes to sleep for good.




http://groups.msn.com/LatinFlyersAirportBar/concordegboac.msnw

[BRISTOLRE]

LHR-JFK supersonic positioner due out this afternoon, slot given currently 1516z ex-LHR on a WOD/CPT dept eta JFK 1904z.
This will be the one of the two last EVER EVER supersonic transatlantic CONC flights.
What I am told this is AE going to SEATTLE via JFK.

[jrbt]

Thanks for your report Bristolre. Do you have yet an ETD for Seattle? In any event it's not today, is that correct?

[supersonicteddy]

Can anybody confirm that the take-off runway will be the same as other departures for today? In the past BA001 has had priority on the landing runway - and I've positioned myself at the end of the wrong runway as a result.
I guess my radio scanner for ATC should help, but I'm not sure of what frequency I should be locking onto...

[DamienB]

Seems pretty likely to be the Northern runway judging by repeated comments on the ConcordeSST forum - and looking at the wind, heading westbound.

[BRISTOLRE]

No news regarding SEA. It is planned that this will be the one to go to Boeing museum in Seattle via JFK as techstop as LHR-SEA to long a sector for Conc.
Once I hear something, I'll let ya awl know.

At 1500z LHR should change to 27R for deps due daily rwy alternations. LHR currently on 27L deps but this changes to 27R at 1500z (in theory,.,.,.) stron westerlies so no chance or 09 deps today.

IF IN DOUBT, TAKE A SCANNER!

BREAKING NEWS
The flight plan now gone out as G-BOAG (no flight number) to fly amended routing LHR-JFK etd 1516z eta JFK 1905z.

[NineEighteen]

BREAKING NEWS
The flight plan now gone out as G-BOAG (no flight number) to fly amended routing LHR-JFK etd 1516z eta JFK 1905z. The LHR-MAN delivery changed callsigns half way through the flight at the request of (I think) Captain Bannister. I assume because Speedbird Concorde AC was more personal than Speedbird Concorde 9020C.

[John Wintergreen]

jrbt,

Thanks for your report Bristolre. Do you have yet an ETD for Seattle? In any event it's not today, is that correct?

Latest info I have says departure from JFK is on the 5th November at 18.00hrs, arrival at KBFI at 23.00hrs. Subsonic all the way.

Don't know if times are local or GMT though.

Big J.

[TopBunk]

JW is correct. The plan is for Concorde to depart JFK at 1800 GMT on 5th November, ariving BFI (Boeing Field I guess) at 2300 GMT same day.

Just got back from LHR having watched her depart into a lovely setting sun at about 1535 GMT.:D :cool: :sad: :{

[darrenmorris]

Captain Bannister was asking Air Traffic for the preferred landing times for the 3 Concordes, and said that company had asked that none landed 'on the hour'. Before the hour, or after, was OK, but not on the hour.

Why was that?


To maximise live TV coverage (read "free publicity") I guess.

Not so much with the BBC as they were live throughout; but many TV networks worldwide were taking feeds from LHR on syndication and would have been away at bulletins at the top of the hour.

[Red Spitfire Driver]

Hi Everyone,


For those of you that are interested, here are the true last flights of the BA Concorde Fleet.

03 Nov - BAW9093C EGLL1500, arrive KJFK 1855, Supersonic.
05 Nov - BAW9093C KJFK1800, arrive KBFI 2300

10 Nov - BAW9093C EGLL1500, arrive KJFK 1855, Supersonic.

17 Nov - BAW9095C EGLL1120, arrive TBPB 1535, Supersonic. See Note below.

26 Nov - BAW9020C EGLL1120, arrive EGTG 1200.

* If direct TBPB is a problem the aircraft could flight plan
a) EGLL - TAPA, TAPA - TBPB (TAPA, Antigua)
b) EGLL - EINN, EINN - TBPB
c) EGLL - LPAZ, LPAZ - TBPB. (LPAZ, Santa Maria, Azores)

If there are are any spare seats please let me know !!

Cheers RSD

:ok:

[Tony_EM]

Why were the JFK approach controllers calling her "Boeing Alpha Gulf" today?

[paulo]

Was curious myself. Maybe a freudian slip to do with the destinaton? For those that are interested [incomplete transcript]

Approach: "Boeing Alpha Golf is two from [???] turn right heading zero two zero cross assault[?] at 3000 [??] runway 31 left approach."

AG reads back as "Concorde Alpha Golf..."

Approach: "Boeing Alpha, err... [chuckling] Concorde Alpha Golf contact Kennedy tower one one niner point one, you fellas take care"

AG reads back as "Boeing Alpha Golf".

Tower / AG dialogue was simply "Alpha Golf".

then

Tower: "What are you guys doing in that concorde today?"

AG: "What, apart from having fun?"

AG: "Ummm...We're stopping here enroute to Seattle. The aeroplane is going to go live in Bo... well not the Boeing, the museum of flights yeah."

[BRISTOLRE]

Wonderful takeoff roll & departure from LHR yesterday after the rains cleared away.

Lots of people around, a good 300 or so turned out lining the Stanwell Moor Road and Longford roundabouts.

Strange how BAA T5 security came out in Land Rovers 5 mins before her late departure to turf everyone out of kerbside areas around the perimter roads. People were strongly defiant in being asked to move away as Alpha Golf commenced her final LHR take off roll. These heartless people have a job to do but the crowds disperse once Concorde had gone. This Scottish geezer had the cheek to openly admit "I am just doing my job better than being a bloody anorak". He nearly got belted by a "well built" Concorde fan trying to take photos.
Strange thing was all the construction workers and digger drivers stopped work and clambered up on fences & concrete barriers momentarily to have a glimpse... Security team never had a go at them only the innocent bona-fide Concorde supporters.

Thanks for the remainder of the final movements program, we are ALL much obliged. Nice one. Keep us updated if any sked changes.

Another thing..
BBC breakfast news today said that there would be a flight from LHR-SEA leaving LHR today... me thinks they got their days mixed up. Either that or there will be tons of people today lining the roads again for nothing!

[davethelimey]

Is anyone else unsurprised that not only did Auntie get the days wrong, but also doubled Concorde's range?

Will it be gliding the last bit?

[jongar]

sorry to interupt but I was just phoned my a good friend, well placed to know. Apparently the crew are carrying drills and will disable in a very real manner the aircrafts flight systems once landed at boeing field. Apperently they wish to prevent any testing of conrdes sytems by engineers from an other aerospace company. I would have thought all the relevenat data woiuld be in the patent office and be available now, but can anyone else confirm the willful distruction of british taxpayers property

[paulo]

Depends on what they are doing - if they remove some key systems (computer systems would be the easiest & most effective I'd guess) and take them away to lock up then arguably it's disabling not destroying.

Would BA allow anything to be done that would permanently cripple them? Hope not. Can't see anything in it for them.

[simfly]

Why should BA have a problem with a manufacturer investigating Concorde's systems? Are they really that dead set against future supersonic travel????? :mad:

[GlueBall]

We have seen and lived the future. Now it's back to the 7 hours crossing. :{

[willbav8r]

I'm afraid the retirement of Concorde, and the actions of numerous companies involved, not to mention the modern day travel nightmare, incompetent jobsworths running off "anoraks" etc makes me VERY glad that I left the UK.

If we think a bit, the Concorde saga is more than a sign of the general state of affairs.

I hope to see ingenuity, common sense, and technological triumph again someday. For now, it is plainly apparent that we are destined to recede towards the 1700's.

[Hand Solo]

the modern day travel nightmare, incompetent jobsworths

Surely you've gone to the wrong country to escape those? Now take your shoes off and place them in the X-ray machine. Gotta love the TSA.

[jrbt]

So this thread is now in "Aviation History and Hostalgia", huh? In my opinion that's premature. Just two hours ago I saw one take off from JFK runway 31L. Departure at 13:35 local, i.e. 18:35 UT, bound for Seattle.

Due to thick fog/haze and very low ceiling, could only see it for about three seconds in blurry silhouette while it was straight overhead at maybe 500 meters. But the sound was as massive as ever!

All other aircraft were departing on 4L, so Concorde had no competition on 31L.

Of interest: sources tell me Concorde got clearance to take a route over sparsely inhabited sections of Canada, supersonic! Flight continues as I type this! Yay! :D

[jrbt]

In my opinion it's premature to put the Concorde thread in "Aviation History and Nostalgia" - because some actual flights do remain. Respectfully I say, why the rush?

Just two hours ago, from vantage point at north end of Cross Bay Bridge, I saw Concorde take off from JFK runway 31L. Departure at 13:35 local, i.e. 18:35 UT, bound for Seattle.

Due to thick fog/haze and very low ceiling, I and friend Craig could only see it for about three seconds in blurry silhouette while it was straight overhead at maybe 500 meters. But the sound was as massive as ever!

All other aircraft were departing on 4L, so Concorde had no competition on 31L.

Of interest: sources tell me Concorde got clearance to route over sparsely inhabited sections of Canada, supersonic! Flight continues as I type this! Yay! :D

[747FOCAL]

I will be watching the concorde arriving at Boeing Field in 2 hours. :ok:

[jrbt]

747focal,

Suggest double check arrival time since it could be sooner than the originally projected 2300 UT? Because it's flying supersonic not subsonic per earlier announced plan. But maybe route is longer than the originally expected route so it might cancel out? Anyway check.

One thing which makes me think it might get to Seattle early: in flying supersonic today, Concorde, I am told, decided to aim for new North American transcontinental record! Need we say - the old record doesn't have a prayer.

[paulo]

Yep - the asked JFK ATC to officially record the airborne time and then send it in writing for the purpose of the record, err, 'attempt' :)

[the first thread to be moved into "History"was actually moved whilst it was still in commercial service. The next was Flying Lawyer's... the next the 490+ replies one which until then had been a practical catch-all soaking up what would otherwise be new threads in R&N... :rolleyes:]

[downthebay]

G-BOAG has been on frequency with Boeing Tower and anticipates an arrival time of 1433 local, for those of you in Seattle.

[DubTrub]

Im in London...anyone got a spare Concorde so I can get to Seattle in time?

[Air Mail]

Doesn't the Lockheed Martin SR-71 Blackbird hold the record?

If so, I doubt the Concorde can compete with that, but good luck anyway!!

[m&v]

Just witnessed Concord descending into SEA,o'head YVR at 1408.
ATC tried to talk captn into 'Lowand Over',but crew had prior commitments(Shame).Weather clear as a bell,nice contrail.:eek:

[paulo]

Wonder if this Concorde leaves contrails???

http://www.michel-concorde.com/concorde/imflug/index.html

:) :) :)

[cirrus32]

Just got back from Boeing Field. It was a beautiful day in Seattle. Concorde did a fly-over KBFI at approx. 3000' then turned and landed on 31L, taxied back to the Museum of Flight.

Very, very sad to see the end of an era.

[NigelOnDraft]

Yes... judging from the actual Takeoff and Landing times, some Elks or whatever live in N Canada heard a loud boom last night!

From:
http://www.museumofflight.org/visit/concorde.html

Arrival information
Concorde has landed and set a new World's Record for New York to Seattle. Welcome to Seattle G-BOAG!

NoD

[NineEighteen]

simfly wrote:Why should BA have a problem with a manufacturer investigating Concorde's systems? Are they really that dead set against future supersonic travel????? I agree, let Boeing take a look and hopefully, with the shared knowledge, a successor can be produced. Supersonic passenger travel should not be a thing of the past....it's absurd! :*

P.S. My greatest respect goes to Canada for allowing AG a final supersonic journey. Nice one! :ok:

[Freeway]

On Wed Nov 5th 2003, Concorde G-BOAG, set a new record time for a commercial airliner, flying coast to coast between New York JFK and Seattle in 3hrs 55mins 12seconds.
The Canadian authorities permitted the flight to fly supersonically over land on its final flight to Seattle, were it will be retired and put on public display.