Station Closures, Your Choice

[Gainesy]

OK troops, this could be fun, if you were the Boss of your particular Service which station/base/camp would you close and why?
And which would you re-open and why?

[AllTrimDoubt]

Easy - Tri-Service answer...MOD Main Building! You don't have to ask why!

:yuk:

[Mightycrewseven]

CLOSE = Kinloss

Y? Because it's location is the single most, and probably only, reason why we can't recruit and keep WSOps in the RAF. :hmm:

Where to put the Nimrods then?

St. Mawgan ;) (Newquay is 'UK Ibiza' playground)

Y? Because it's location is the single most, and probably only, reason how we can recruit and keep many happy WSOps in the RAF.

M7 :ok:

[Mr C Hinecap]

Take Chivenor back from the RMs and let the RAF have it all back again.

Cos we had it when I was trying to join and they got rid before I could get posted somewhere as perfect.

Surf. Mmmmmm.

[Jackonicko]

Once closed, stations can seldom be brought back into operation, unless retained under MoD ownership and maintained under Care and Maintenance. Stations represent the only long term route to expansion, if it is ever required in a century's time.

If forced to consolidate, I'd withdraw everything from North of the border, since we'll lose it all anyway when the Jockistanis get independence. Ditto Valley, St Athan, etc.

[Gainesy]

:rolleyes:
S'only a game Jacko.
Para 2, concur.

[Matelot B'stard]

Put all crabs on Diego Garcia.. Tally ho chaps :p

[StopStart]

Was this inspired by the article in the news about the RAF closing for a month in January?

My choices for closure would be:

RAF Brize Norton, RAF Basra.

And reopening:

RAF Gan, RAF Changi, RAF Sek Kong, RAF Seletar, RAF Tengah
RAF Butterworth, RAF Kuala Lumpur, RAF Kai Tak, RAF Muhurraq, Bangkok, Saigon, Belize etc etc.

And anywhere else hot and sunny.

[soddim]

Please don't put us on Diego Garcia - far too dangerous - much too close to fish 'eads - ships run aground too often!

[Gainesy]

Stoppers you've gone all Oriental on us; fed up with Ginsters & Kebabs?
Muhurraq?!? Like Marham without grass.:yuk:

[Matelot B'stard]

you crabs are such drama queens, whats a measley £42m worth of damage??? It was a mere dent, don't know what all the fuss was about.. we kept a load of shipyard contractors in work didn't we?? :ok:

[BEagle]

Close:

Valley
Kinloss
Valley
Kinloss
Valley..

Return:

Chivenor
Abingdon
Thorney Island
Wattisham

Keep open:

Lyneham - with A400M when the C130s are finally retired
St Mawgan - with Nimrod

..and close Valley and Kinloss, in case I forgot to mention them!

[StopStart]

Marham without grass????
Dear god - I didn't know Gulf Air hosties were quite so prevalent in Norwich.....

PS. You can never get fed up of kebabs....you just have to make sure that you imbibe enough village wine/red paraffin such that you don't remember the experience. Thus every kebab is a whole new experience......
That said, I would rather stagger about the fleshpots of Bangkok than those of Limassol.

:yuk:

[BEagle]

To my 'close' list, add:

1. Anywhere with 'al' in the name. Including Valley. Excluding Coltishall!

2. :mad: Base Aerea Gringo, Islas Malvinas.

[Gainesy]

Hosties???
Last time I went through there they didn't have Gulf Air, well if they did it had DH Doves or something.

Village wine?? Ah, cute. Does it still make yer teeth turn purple? Still, you were weaned on it IIRC.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Close:

Valley
Marham
Coningsby
Kinloss
Northolt
MPA

Reopen:

Chivenor
Brawdy
Gutersloh
Finningley
Binbrook

Edited 'cos I got a D for spelling:O

[Yellow Sun]

Kinloss

But, why do you need to ask?

YS

[bluetail]

Eh cum on, Kinloss isn,t that bad, just because you young growbags just want (scam) to get flying pay to bop around the clock all the time.

They (Growbags) moan when they fly and then moan when they don,t.

The place they should shut is Lossy, there's never anyone there anyway, 'cos of detacments.

Camps to re-open, most definately GAN, and RAF holiday camp Chivenor.

Why.......never went to either, but just allways heard bloody good stories,

Tin hat on and ducking:cool: :cool: :cool: :mad:

[Jobza Guddun]

Close:-
Kintoss(Deadloss)
Tossiemouth (Lousymouth)
Valley

Re-open:-
Finningley
Binbrook
Chivenor

Ideal world:-
civvies do all the op stuff and deployments, we all move into the sleepy hollows (as were).....Cranwell,Fenton,Finningley,Linton etc aaah, easy life,happy days
:ooh:

[DummyRun]

SS et al,

I take it the closure of Cranditz was an an oversight and how could you possibly not re-open Church Funtown!!. Heard a rumour that 30 Sqn is being moved to LCRA next Spring!!!.

Load Moving......

P.S. Stoppers,

Last route was a complete be-atch, darn it, fancy having to put up with the French doing a topless swimwear fashion photo shoot on the beach in the Seychelles when a chap is trying to have a kip!!

[StopStart]

DR

A move to LCRA would be ideal especially as our Mediterranean bastion is soon to revert to the operating hours of old. Ah, happy days.... Aircraft circling overhead waiting for the place to open... Fabulous departure times from the UK just to make the most of their meagre opening hours...

Anyway, I assume that the sqn you refer to would have to work to LCRA's hours? In that case, I'm looking foward to the 0700 start and the stack in time for a late morning gin frenzy at 1130. Fabulous.

PS. As for the trouble you've been experiencing on route I do hope that you a) Route Staged the place b) took a 24hr delay due to disturbed sleep and c) got lucky.
I suspect, however, that none of that happened. especially c).

[whowhenwhy]

What's wrong with Colt Beags? It's a great place! Concur on las malvinas though. Oh and sorry guys but Chivenor aint going to happen. The windfarm at the end of the runway would make life a little too entertaining for you flying chaps. Course you wouldn't want to go there for the flying I suppose....:ok:

[BEagle]

"To my 'close' list, add:

1. Anywhere with 'al' in the name. Including Valley. Excluding Coltishall!"


Err, that means don't close Coltishall!

[Jackonicko]

Too late for Colt, surely, BEags.....?

I'd move everything down from Lossie, myself......

[Jordan D]

What's everyone's big probs with Kinloss & Lossie?

Jordan

[DC10RealMan]

Talking of opening and closing of bases, has anyone heard about the possibility of reopening Scampton properly ie: Domestic and Technical site as well as airfield. I drove around it recently and to see a station with such an illustrious history in a state of semi dereliction brought a tear to my eye.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hell, I'm Welsh and only ever had to spend a few weeks in Valley but I'd still cheer (on your behalf) were it to close.

The attitude of the locals made my teeth itch plus the pure desolateness of the place is enough to drive you to drink.

It must be the biggest economic asset to Anglesey and thus one of the biggest assets to North&Mid-Wales. Yet you never saw an utterance of the fact in any local press. Close it and watch them wail I say. I'd laugh in their faces.

What is it I recall about some local MP and an enquiry about pre-Christmas beer runs out of Kinloss/Lossie..? Something about putting local shop keepers out of business. I'd close both bases on the same day with no notice and then laugh in their ungrateful faces as well.

Toodle pip!

WWW

[Krystal n chips]

Dream on !

Close : Coningsby
Wattisham
St Athan

Reopen:
Tern Hill
South Cerney
Little Riss.
Colerne
Bruggen
Gutersloh

Recycle / obliterate Brawdy :mad: !!!!!

Or use the above as a nuclear waste tip, asylum centre---- unless Ryanair decide it will become Cardiff (St.Davids ) International of course. The absolute a$$e end of the world. As for Valley, great place :ok: I am surprised that you don't like the place BEagle, I would have thought it was perfect for you--after all you could live in Imperial splendour at the top of the hill, the SNCO's have their own site and the great unwashed a nice compound ! . Other than work, no need to have any contact with each other and plenty of social elite in Beaumaris and Menai Bridge :p It was a nice quiet posting when it was wholly RAF operated and I spent reasonably happy years there after all. :ok: :

[Brakes...beer]

Drove around Laarbruch the other day - very strange. Parts of it on care and maintenance, parts abandoned - the married patch is a fenced-off jungle. My old office was littered with beer cans - no change there then. The HASs are being broken up and there is a brand spanking new terminal where 1 Hangar used to be - at least Ryanair are using the airfield.

The Sergeants' Mess is now the "Royal Officers' Club - Available for Conferences and Meetings".

[Gainesy]

I thought that HMP & Stalagluft Valley would be top for closure, but I'm slightly bemused that Coningsby gets a few mentions; it used to be fairly popular what happened?

As for me I'd move the Kinloss stuff to St Mawgan, Lossie to Honington, Leuchars to (Da! Da!) Tangmere and Valley to Chiv. The Bootnecks can blow up the wind farm as they leave. St Athan assets to Abingdon.

Akrotiri to be returned to H24 and have some AT, AD assets based.

Oh, and buy some more aircraft.

[BEagle]

Huh? Pembrokeshire was infinitely friendlier than Angelsey and I had a splendid time at Brawdy in 1975-6. Apart from the local Taffia who ran the Officers' Mess pulling union action now and again...

The OM at Valley was quite pleasant back in the 1970s. Especially when Mary with the long legs used to run the 'Dragon room' - where a couple of bratties and a pint or two would finish off many an enjoyable evening's revelry. But all gone now and there's just the one big soulless place. You are right though, the oiks were kept well away. There was a fair bit of socialising with the local expats (non-Welsh) - often centreing around the 'Sandymount' in the nearby beach village of Rhosneigr. Anglesey was 'dry' then on Sundays, so to to get a drink on Sunday you had to be a member of a club - as all the Officers Mess were.....

Only one bridge across the Menai and no dual carriageways meant that excursions back to England were rare, so we had to make the most of the place despite the rudeness of the locals. They once made the mistake of mouthing off about a group of u/t Gnat students in a local shop in Llangefni - big mistake for them as one of the group was fluent in Welsh and gave them the full benefit of his linguistic ability!

The only thing which spoiled Coningsby when I was there was that Ba$tard Bill was Stn Cdr - otherwise a very reasonable spot. But not as nice as rural Wattisham down in sunny Suffolk- and at neither of which was life anything like as truly excellent as it was at Scampton was in the late V-force era of 1977-79!

[Jordan D]

At the risk of sounding repetive (and seeing we're on a new page), what's the problem with Lossie/Kinloss?

Jordan

[Mr C Hinecap]

Coningsby is currently a building site, but methinks many many people will find it the centre of their world again. It is going to be the home of Eurofighter after all! Tee hee. You will all soon discover the gloom of the Near East Air Force again - the sinking feeling of driving through - well - not many places really - to get there, passed the boarded up pub, the locals, the illegal immigrant field picking teams all the way to the front gate. At least the SuperBlocks will be built for the lads by then.

Abandon hope all ye tarred with the Eurofighter brush.

[Training Risky]

Stopstart, you want "anywhere else hot and sunny" to be reopened, doesn't RAF Basra fall into that category?
:D

Jordan D, I'll answer you. Lossie and Kinloss are at the ar*e end of nowhere (Scotland) and the nearest decent place to shop is Inverness - a bit of a drive away. Does that answer your question? I've paxed on a 6 hr Grimrod trg sortie over Stavanger, and I have no intention of doing it again!

Gainsey, good choices - with you there.

My own choices for CLOSURE:

1. Benson.

a) Why? As an SH operator, I can see no practical use for the place. Its full of plastic Pumas that are taking up countless resources that a few more Chinooks could be using.
b) And as for the Freak Sqn... What a waste of R&D money. Again, more Chinooks or off-the-shelf Black/Pave Hawks for the JPR role. (Which is supposed to be the Merlin's best use? ha ha ha.)
c) I'm bl**dy fed up with having to catch MT to the place to use the sim, because Odiham is too bl**dy small to have one!

2 and 3: Lossie and Kinloss (See above) (Send their assets to Honington and St Mawgan.)

4. Valley. (Do you need to ask why?)

5. Shawbury. Too bl**dy close to Wales. Decentralise DHFS to Yeovilton, Middle Wallop and Manston.

REOPEN:

1. Manston.

a) Claim back the airfield from MK Airlines, et al.
b) Put Wattasham's SAR flt back here where it should be: on the SOUTH COAST. (doh, Its not rocket science!) (Put SKOCU here as well, to make more room at St Mawgan for all the Grimrods.)
c) Farm out DHFS functions to Yeovs, Wallop and here. Ie, Navy and RAF SAR studes get more access to the sea. Navy, Army and RAF SH studes could go to the other two for closer access to Salisbury Plain.

2. Honington.

If there is room, the Regt can stay. If not, I'm sure they would rather be back at Catterick, closer to Otterburn and Spadeadam.
Put Lossie air wing here.


What a master plan eh?

[ZH875]

Close everything except Waddington and Conningsby.

Then perhaps we could look forward to having some money spent on brand new bases with brand new facilities.

I would bet that even Annington wouldn't buy Lyneham.

Close: Lossiemouth Lyneham
Odiham
Aldergrove
Cranwell
Halton
Kinloss
Reopen: Honington Church Fenton Kemble
Wattisham Chivenor Little Rissington
Binbrook Manby Thorney Island
Hemswell Strubby Gaydon
Scampton Greenham Common All RAFG
Topcliffe mountbatten

[STANDTO]

Said it once
Said it Many times
Say it again.............

Re open Jurby before they build a prison there, and move EFTS and BFTS to it (and a SAR flight). And let everyone pay local tax for the duration of their tour.

We'd all be pleased to see you - and grateful for the extra cash in the local economy.

At a push, reopen the range whilst were at it

[smartman]

BEagle

And the Course dining-outs, the Staff dining-ins, the fire-eater, Langroid's lilting, the Lightning/Hunter banter - and, sadly, too many wakes ---------------

[SALAD DODGER]

Fairford is looking quite slick at the moment after its multi-million pound refit, looks better than any RAF runway that I have seen. If you put the hercs there they would only take up a fraction of the pan space, and the Spams could still launch WWIII!

Close Brize in my opinion, it has become bland, run down and lacks everything that makes a good RAF base, except the location.

[BEagle]

It's also the only place I served at which doesn't have a gate guard. Even Binnsworth had a Meteor 7.

Or maybe that 'Home of AR and Air Transport' sign:yuk: is supposed to count?

[Mad_Mark]

Jordan,

In answer to your question, the biggest problem with Kinloss and Lossie are those moaning people up here. No, not the locals, those few vociferous RAF types that always put the place down.

Yes, Moray is a long way north and the nearest decent big town for shopping is 30-45 minutes drive away. However the area is lovely and the locals (if you take the time to get to know them, without slagging them off all the time) are very friendly.

The majority of people I talk to, that are based up here, are very happy. If you come here with a positive attitude you won't spend all your time feeling depressed and longing for the high cost of living, high crime rates and traffic jams of the south. Take a look at how many ex-Forces (RAF and RN) have stayed in the area after handing in the uniform!

You will probably find most of those wanting RAF Moray closed are those that had the attitude that they wouldn't like it before they ever got here, or those that have never even been here (or only spent a couple of days here).

Standing by for a barrage of anti-Jockland rants :D


MadMark!!! :mad:

[covec]

Jordan

In the case of Kinloss, it's the inability to have a life when on a maritime sqn. that's the killer to being "up here". Not easy to escape that bl**dy Ops 'phone call....

Move Sentry/Sentinel to Kinloss. Move Kipper fleet to Waddington.

And if any Sentry/Sentinel types complain...what's wrong with Kinloss?

[Hummingfrog]

I agree with MM

The Lossie/Kinloss area is one of the nicest places to live in the UK. The weather factor is good, the people are friendly and where else in the UK can you let your kids roam free in the knowledge that the are perfectly safe as at least 200 hundred villagers, who you know and talk to, are keeping an eye on them as they play in the gorse and fields.

Housing is not expensive and traffic jams are unheard of (Elgins's rush hour lasts 15 mins). I have been based at Gutersloh, Brawdy, Chivenor, Benson and Odiham and think that overall the quality of life up here (yes I retired here with a Scottish wife and daughter but a very english son who speaks with a scottish accent!!) is the best of all with Chivenor coming a near second and Brawdy - well enough said the Welsh are a funny lot and my Mum was Welsh!!

HF

:D

[Phoney Tony]

The Ministry of Defence is searching for a publicly acceptable solution for disposing of 27 highly radioactive submarine reactors, each twice as high as a double decker bus.

In a clear acknowledgment that it is running out of time and space to moor the redundant submarines, the MoD consulted the residents of two dockyard towns about what to do with the rusting hulks that were once the pride of the Royal Navy.

Seven hulks are at Rosyth dockyard in Fife and four at Devonport in Plymouth. They have had the nuclear fuel rods taken out but remain potentially dangerous and everyone accepts that they cannot be left to rot.

The urgency is that more of the 16 nuclear submarines still at sea are coming to the end of their lives and by 2012 there will be no mooring space left.

The answer.........................Put all this junk at Kinloss

The radiation may mutate the locals back to humans.

[Lukeafb1]

875,

It'd be a bit difficult to reopen Greenham Common - there's damn all of it left, unless you count the Elementary School and very cleverly, the LEA didn't grab that when they could. It was probably the best maintained school in Berkshire!

[Jordan D]

I've been upto Kinloss on camp once, and liked the place .... seems nice enough ... keep it open.

Jordan

[difar69]

Well said Mad Mark, Hummingfrog. The majority of open minded people up here at Kinloss do love the place......trouble is you will only hear from:

a. The whingeing minoirty (who will generally whinge wherever they are)
b. Those who have been here once (for a day) or not at all, and are incidentally experts about all the Nimrod fleet does, and don't understand why anybody would want to go there.

You can stick St Mawgan thanks very much. I like my clean air, low house prices, open spaces and good whisky.

Why wasn't his thread started as a "who is happy where they are?" If you don't like where you are then do something about it (other than whinge).

Rant over.

Oh, i do hate Valley though.:ok:

[ZH875]

Luke...

I meant reopen it as a cruise missile base. Lets give the CND monstrosities somewhere else to have a holiday besides Faslane.

[Cattivo]

I agree with you Difar69. What pisses me off are the people who slag off Kinloss (cos its a RAF cliche) having never been based there! I mean, Training Risky slagging the place off because he pax'd on a boring Ops/CT... get a life.

[FFP]

It's true.

Tell people you live in Oxfordshire and they'll say ' Oxford, nice, better than Valley/ Kinloss etc '. To be honest, I find Oxford very overrated and dirty as well as boring, overpriced and hard to park in.

There's a lot of " Thought Inertia " these days (like that ?! It's a new management phrase I've coined !!) " People repeating what they hear as they have neither the inclination or strength of character to say what they actually think. Annoying.

[BEagle]

Yes - Oxford is full of aggressive beggars, dribbling winos, crocodiles of foreign pickpockets masquerading as schoolkids on language exchange visits, it has expensive car parking and a frankly bizarre road system - and they still haven't managed to sort out the Cornmarket after wasting millions on lunatic resurfacing schemes..... We're run by a nanny county council which hates cars and inflicts speed limits everywhere, choosing to waste copious amounts of money instead on absurd bicycle schemes.......

So it's a good job that the rest of Oxfordshire and the Cotswolds is so much nicer than the so-called 'dreaming spires'!

[Gainesy]

Right then, that's Oxford on the Closed list.

[Training Risky]

FYI Cattivo, I actually took that pax trip while I was holding at Lossie for a 7 week stint. Not a long time I think you will agree, but long enough to get to know a little of the area.... and while the natural scenery was suberb, the only thing the Lossie/Kinloss area had going for it was Inverness airport and the A9 southbound.

I don't see the value of keeping open a single-issue station like Kinloss when it's raison d'etre consists of the rotting shells of Russian submarines, tied up at Murmansk. (And are they a threat now?)

(Oh alright then, long-range SAR cover as well.)

[Stan Bydike]

Training Risky,

I suggest you do some research on the employment of the Nimrod fleet

[BEagle]

Getting a bit close to the wind, chaps...........

[noisy]

Re-open Hendon.
Not that I'm desperate to have an airfield on my doorstep-it's just that a runway would be architecturally more pleasing than the monstrosity of Grahame Park.
:rolleyes:

PS what is the purpose of Bentley Priory?
(The lightning gate guard would look nice in my garden)

[aw ditor]

Re-open Oakington, just had a £4M re-fit for Asylum Seekers!

[Stan Bydike]

Beagle,

For example, continuous SAR standby for the UK:)

[maniac55]

To which, most of our business is West of Ireland or in the South West approaches, should be at St Mawgan :D :D :D

[Biggus]

Using that logic most of the RAF's business today is east of Akrotiri, so why don't we close all UK bases and re-open all the ones we abandoned in the Middle East!!

[teeteringhead]

Noisy

Bentley P is the location for the monthly dinners of the Air Force Board! Cracking Mess old chep, very handy for town dontcher know! Can't possibly close it! :rolleyes:

[noisy]

teeteringhead,

...and there I was thinking it was some sort of admin centre.

[Regie Mental]

I'd re-open:

Gaydon - centrally located, great countryside, M40 next door
Thorney Island - on the sunny south coast, nuff said
Tarrant Rushton - see above

Reg

[Flatus Veteranus]

How about this for a "Phantasy Air Force", based on a time in the "thirties" when Les Grenouillles were the nominal threat and flying was fun.

ITS/IOT South Cerney (Chippies)

FTS/CFS Little Rissington (Gnats)

OCU Chivenor (Hunters)

Operational Squadrons (Hunters) - Tarrant Rushton, W Zoyland, Hullavington, Thorney Island, Tangmere, W Malling.

Exchange Slots - Nellis (F86) and Ohakea (A4)


What was Bentley Priory for? I seem to recall that Nelson used it for rogering Lady Hamilton.

[noisy]

what a fantastic story! is it true?!
I fly over bentley priory every so often on my flying lessons.

:D

[BATS]

Bentley Priory houses the DASC, formerly known as IFS, the Air Historical Branch and a few other lost souls.

The house itself belonged to Lady Hamiltom's family and was indeed where Nelson spent some of his leisure time. The house is a Grade 1 listed building upon which the MOD has has to lavish significant sums of money merely keeping the facade in one piece. As for the interior, I leave that to your imagination.......

BP is one of the finest pieces of real estate in London that the MOD actually owns. In an area that boasts houses with price tags similar to a Typhoon, it can't be too long before we sell it.....

[Argus]

Once upon a time in the north, in the halcyon days of the 60s/70s - when RNAS Lossiemouth was the jewel in the Fleet Air Arm's crown; where the flying had a distinct 'sharp end' focus; where the weather, sailing, skiing, 'apres ski', climbing, golf, shooting and fishing were world class yet affordable even on a 'subbies' pay; when rugby union ruled before Elgin and Inverness boasted league soccer teams; where the countryside was full of both colourful yet tragic history and unpolluted/unspoilt natural beauty; where forming a life long attachment to good malt, especially Glen Morangie was a rite of passage; where local folk - including landowners, schoolteachers, fishermen, coastguards, landlords of 'Gordon Arms' and sundry Moray and Nairn hostelries whose names have unfortunately receded into the mists of time past, police officers, distillery managers, especially at Tain - forgave the excesses of the Duke of Cumberland and went out of their way to be friendly and helpful, often forging life long friendships stretching to the Antipodes; when a long weekend in the big smoke travelling by sleeper train was temporally achievable; when the Officers' Messes at Fort George, RAF Kinloss and RAF Buchan were but mere pale moons in orbit around the HMS FULMAR Wardroom's sun, especially at Winter Balls and Mess Dinners; when God was in his heaven and all was right with the world ...

Lest we forget!

[EESDL]

Please shut Crandlitz!
Why?
Everyone here has lost the plot!

[Jordan D]

I'd say shut RAF Buchan, and transfer the big golf ball elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the place when I went there 2 years ago, but there is nothing there. At all.

Jordan

[Biggus]

Jordan D

Buchan is closing, or at least shrinking down to care and maintenance with 2 men and a dog there. Nice to see you have your finger on the pulse!!!!

EESDL

I met you when you were on the same Sqn as Stop Start. What are you doing at Cranditz? Not your sort of place, posting or course?

[Jordan D]

Biggus - fingers not on the pulse, because I'm a simple ex-CCF cadet!

Jordan

[Zlin526]

Talking of opening/closing, what on earth goes on at RAF Digby these days? Drove past there a few nights ago and it was lit up like a Christmas tree!

Z

[moggie]

It's also the only place I served at which doesn't have a gate guard. Even Binnsworth had a Meteor 7.

What would you put in there? A VC10 (lovely as it would be) might be a tad large - although most of them seem to be on static display, anyway.

Fully concur on the Oxford thing - never liked it (even though I was born there). Those who love it have only ever seen it in Inspector Morse!

It's dirty, smelly, ugly, inconvenient and too expensive. Privatise the city and sell it to the Yanks as a theme park.

[BEagle]

One of the old VC10K2s....or a Brittania?

But no money, no interest, no heritage......

[SOMAT]

Moggie and BEagle,

Wholeheartedly agree your comments re Oxford; What a hole!!
I live close to it and I avoid it like the plague except when we get the occasional visitors from the USA, Oz etc, then I drive them in, pay the usual fortune for a parking slot, put them on the tour bus and I go off to the pub (now the place does have one or 2 good watering holes, even if one has to step over the winos).

Let's pretend it's a RAF station and close it!!

[BEagle]

Once rang the city council to advise them that a 'Ban the Bomb' CND flag was flying over their building. "Presumably some student prank", I said. But no - it was actually a deliberate political act by the huggy-fluffy idiots who misruled the dribbling spires at that time!

[attackattackattack]

I'm surprised at how many of you said that Wattisham should be reopened.

It is open.

And the home to a race of sky gods.

:p

[BEagle]

Presumably because we meant real Wattisham. Late home of the famous 56F 'Firebirds'...and another, lesser bunch (23) known as 'The Crows', both of whom flew the F4 back in the 1980s.

Whereas now there are just a few dung-eaters in horrid clattering things bumbling about Suffolk........

[Man-on-the-fence]

It's dirty, smelly, ugly, inconvenient and too expensive.

As one who works each day in the City Of Oxford I must take umbridge with you on this. It is also full of Beggars, Students (cant really tell the difference) Drunks and Whores. It is still run by a bunch of Incompetant fools who wouldnt know there arse from a hole in the ground. And dont get me started about the Cornmarket fiasco or their Anti-car policies or Cyclists for that matter.

You were far too nice about it :mad:

[TheSeeFarShadow]

No surprises from me..

Ice Station Kilo - and all that it stands for :yuk:

[lez]

Id say reopen RAF Finningley,wot a airbase that use to be,im just so glad its gonna be used again for aviation.

too close:
id say leeming (plz don't ask why!!"

[Gainesy]

Ah, Finningley. It's really quite nice up there now, I am told, that the filthy coalite plant upwind at Rossington has closed down.

If I can't ask why ref. Leeming closing then...
Why not keep Leeming.:)

[Bill O'Average]

Beags, you really have become terribly dull since becoming civpop. I thought it was just me, but your a dullard in the A1 bracket.

Get out more, start enjoying your cpls's pension!

[BEagle]

Such a useful contribution from one of the 'race of sky gods':yuk:.

[moggie]

Wattisham may be open but it onlty counts as an airbase if stuff actually flies!

Lynx and Apache make great static displays, though!

[MadsDad]

Since Valley seems to crop up quite a lot on this thread the following description of Anglesey in a book I am reading may be of interest:-

'A miserable tract, composed of a succession of circuitous and craggy inequalities'.

The description is from the late 1700s but from the comments nothing much seems to have changed.

[Chinese Vic]

:( Marham....please don't make me go back.....!

[propulike]

Close :
Lyneham
Brize Norton
Cranwell
Odiham
Leeming
Coltishall
Coningsby
Akrotiri

Re-Open :
Scampton
Finningley
Church Fenton
Chivenor
Manston
Oh, and
Lyneham
Brize Norton
Odiham
Leeming
Coltishall
Coningsby
Akrotiri

I'll get promoted for suggesting a fab waste of cash.

Except leave Cranditz shut. All that happens there is Adminers ponce around trying to convince each other that Flt Lt is a really important rank.

[Gainesy]

Prop,
Splendid idea. Take a long week end (remember them?) and a couple of OBEs.

[Ali Barber]

Close Valley, drop the Menai Bridge with a well paced Paveway and give the whole sodding island a shove towards the north-west!

What's the gripe with all the other places compared to the carbuncle on the backside of the RAF. Get with the programme people!

[aluminium persuader]

Wattisham played host to a det of harriers from 4Sqn the other week - are things on the change?

Not that I'd be one to start a rumour...! ;)

[Roland Pulfrew]

Well if the article in yesterday's Grauniad is anything to go by may I suggest the following:

Bentley Priory
Uxbridge
Colt
Leeming
Lyneham
Wittering - as a flying base
and one of the "Northern" out posts.

Reopen? Nothing - except may be RAF Basra.

Defence is up the creek and the paddle was taken as a savings measure last year.:{ :\ :ugh:

[Gainesy]

Roland,
Do you have a link to this article please?

[Maple 01]

Close

RAF Mount Pleasant

Do you need to ask?

Re-open

RAF Gatow

Formation drinking in down-town Berlin

Regards

-Nick

[Busta]

Didn't mention the "Tigers" Beags, shame on you!

Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all.

[BEagle]

Ah yes, sorry - forgot about 74! Actually it was only the Firebirds and the crows when I was at Wattisham - but tanking the F4Js back from Miramar and North Island was fun! If memory serves, my 'IRT' on the VC10K was completed on a trip flown from Dayton, RV'ing with a couple of the Tigers' 'new' F4Js from Wright-Patt, then tanking them to Goose for a 3-e ILS.

I like FV's fantasy air force idea - but could we move the Weston Zoyland Hunters to Merryfield and base some Javelins at WZ?? Even better - have a DH Hornet OCU at Merryfield as well?

Plus the non-embarked Sea Venoms and Sea Hawks at Yeovilton, of course!

I think that the last RAF aircraft I saw at Merryfield were a gaggle of Pioneers and a single Twin-Pin which were refuelling on the way to somewhere further west? Must have been in the early 1960s.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Ahhh! Valley!

Its not the end of the world
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
but you can see it from there!

[Airbedane]

Close?....Brize Norton, of course - if you've ever tried calling them for a radar service as a GA operator, you'd know why - they were bad enough when trying to get a zone crossing in a military transport or fast jet, but I didn't know I was born then. Also, their Zone is spreading like a cancer into the (what used to be) free southern English airspace.

Open?.....Abingdon and Thorney Island - had some great times at both places.

A

[MadsDad]

BBeags. Please don't forget I've already got Westonzoyland earmarked for my squadron of ex-Nigerian Jaguars.

Negotiations are proceeding and a mate of mine in the local constabulary has agreed to pop along to stop the traffic on the road across the runway when required, so that will help operations.

[BEagle]

Airbedoo-doo, close the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome? Shame on you for suggesting such a thing...

There is a new Chirp form out now, 'Pilot/Flight Crew report - Access/Crossing Difficulties in Class D Airspace'. So if any Twatco gives you a hard time, fill it out and fire it off. Perhaps the status of certain CTRs might then be reviewed? Why does Brize merit a huge Class D CTR when Exeter and Humberside, for example, cope with just an ATZ? Why not just a double-ended Class G MATZ centred around a 2.5 mile ATZ?

Madsdad - OK, bin the Javelins - you can base the African Cats at Weston Zoyland. The Zum'zett Wetlands wouldn't challenge their initial climb rate after all!

[Gainesy]

Nah,
Put the Jags at Sedgemoor Services on the M5, they'd probably unstick somewhere abeam Taunton.:cool:

[MadsDad]

G. Sorry, must veto that idea.

The problem with that is that MadsMum uses the M5 to and from work. The afterburner glow would wreck the paintwork on her car even more than it is already and would cost me too much dosh to get it mended.

[rej]

BEagle

Don't you ever let up re Class D crossings. If it's a problem going through, and I can't believe it is (the mil very rarely, if ever, refuse crossings) go over the top or around the BZN zone.

An intrepid aviator like you should be able to cope!!!

[Airbedane]

I know it's your home, Beags, but I'm afraid BZN has to go. I learnt at a very early age that it was better (more fuel efficient) to take my military jet over or round than through, and now as a civilian driver, even going round can cause unbelieveable heartache - Benson and Lyneham, on the other hand, have always given a good service.

On another subject, why are we still knocking the Jag. I know I used to, even as a driver of said machines, but it wasn't until I had the pleasure of several other (so-called superior) fast jets, both French and British that I realised how good (relatively) the Jaguar was. Now with the -106 engine ( I remember watching in awe as Bob Mason got one of our -102 engined jets off the Coltishall runway in 1970 something in just 4500ft with 8 x 1000 pounders on board) and the new avionic suit, what's the problem?

A

[BEagle]

rej - The main problem is the general lack of understanding of the right of passage for aircraft flying under VFR in Class D airspace. For example, instead of just providing departing IFR traffic with information about any VFR traffic in Class D airspace and avoidance information from that traffic on request, certain controllers will actively vector VFR GA aircraft about the sky in order to provide the same separation standard as would apply to IFR-from-IFR. Also, the manner in which certain controllers at certain aerodromes (not necessarily Brize) treat requests from GA aircraft to enter their Class D airspace is often quite abrupt. "Aircraft calling, remain outside controlled airspace" isn't much help. Particularly when the controller won't respond because he/she's too busy with traffic in wall-to-wall VMC asking for a LARS radar service. Surely there should be some priority to aircraft requesting crossing clearance? Going round or over a Class D zone will often add many miles to the transit distance - and may not be an option in any case if the cloudbase is below the top of the zone or the aircraft is not equipped to fly in IMC. And yes, I can usually cope because I’m reasonably aware of my rights – but I cringe when I hear others being air trafficked to death!

I understand that, in some other countries, merely advising the agency that you wish to transit Class D airspace is considered an adequate R/T contact (after establishing initial comms) - and you can proceed without waiting for a specific clearance?


Airbedane – fully agree about the Jag actually!

[rej]

BEagle and Airbedane

I don't want to diverge from the real topic of this thread too much but I think you might like to know that the reason why at BZN VFR zone transits are vectored and climbed/descended to allow VFR passage. It is not at the whim of ATC but the airfield users (pseudo-airliners) do not want VFR traffic co-altitude, even if they are VFR. The stn-based aircrews are the ones who have "requested" that ATC separation is built in - and you know the old addage "no brevet - no vote". However, we at the other Clas D airspace, with tac crews willing to accept co-altitude traffic, apply Class D rules as they should be.

On the subject of "remain clear of CAS, standby" that is invariably to prevent ac straying into CAS without a clearance whilst one is being arranged/higher priority trafic being controlled. Unfortunately a number of GA pilots need that prompt otherwise they will continue into the Class D without a clearance (I know of a few local airspace users who have such a habit of trekking on). Why don't you come over to the southern class D tower to see what happens at the "dark side" when you want a crossing clearance (a certain amount of co-ordination takes place that you do not need to know about up there in the sky).


An on the subject of airfield closures/openings, they can reopen anywhere but Wyton (I know it's not strictly closed.... UAS). The thouight of another 3 years in Huntingdon is enough to drive anyone crazy.


Finally, thanks Airdedane for the ack that Lyneham ATC are pretty good - we aim to please.

[Proletarian]

Beagle,

We seem to have gone bit off topic, however, as you kicked it off, I shall respond. I was one of the, what you so kindly refer to as, 'TWATCOs' at Brize Radar in the mid-1990s - I believe you were there at the same time - and my views of yourself and a number of other 'aircrew' there at that time are completely reciprocated. Sadly, the majority of the 'problems' in the Brize Zone during my time there were caused by the pilots lack of understanding of the rules that had to be applied in the airspace in and around the Zone, despite the fact that some of those rules were introduced at their instigation. In my time there as one of the flt cdrs I don't recall ever seeing any pilot sitting in the ops room for a couple of hours to get an understanding of the 'problems' from the Brize Radar position - and yes I did fly with 10 and 216 on more than one occasion.

I really had to laugh, because you were probably one of those who whined about being given avoiding action, when your own procedural approach took you outside the lateral dimensions of the Zone, now you whine that the Zone is too big - some things never change. I'm afraid that your attitude and views illustrate all too clearly why the 'problems' at Brize are unlikely to ever change.

I suspect that the only way anything will change for the better is when those that effectively make the rules, insist that they're changed. Then the Brize pilots really need to understand how the rules have to be applied on a daily basis and stop whining when that happens.

Perhaps I should add that I normally enjoy your posts Beagle, but on this occasion I'll make an exception.

By the way, like you I'm retired now too, but I still like to rise to the bait when its dangled.

Proletarian

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Beagle, I too was one of those sad individuals in Air Tragic at BZN. Like Prole, I remember more than the odd conversation where you extolled the virtues of the BZN CTR, only to reverse the arguement when you were being held at Burford in a Club PA28.

However, you do make some interesting and valid points. The key aspect is understanding the rules and regulations (both aircrew and air traffikers). Unfortunately, we in the UK hang our hats on type of service and not Flight Rules. As long as we play RAS/RIS/FIS, we will always confuse each other and, ultimately, be less effective.

Myself, if you're VFR within Class D airspace and visual with the IFR traffic, then fill your boots. If you're not visual with the IFR traffic, I'm sorry but that's not good enough and I will endeavour to provide some sort of separation regardless of the defined responsibilities. Otherwise, we will ultimately have the another TSA 727 meeting a Cessna as happened in the mid 70s.

FlY Safely


PS. I would still close BZN; it's a dump.

[BEagle]

Ahh - now then. A 'Twatco' is an individual Atco who behaves like a, well, ****. NOT a generic term for all our Air Traffickers!

"The stn-based aircrews are the ones who have "requested" that ATC separation is built in - and you know the old addage "no brevet - no vote". However, we at the other Class D airspace, with tac crews willing to accept co-altitude traffic, apply Class D rules as they should be. "

Game, set and match. So it appears that the Class D rules at some aerodromes are being 'modified' to suit individual aerodrome users? No wonder there's so much stress for zone crossers. I agree that Lyneham offers a very good service (although I did once object to my request for a Zone crossing in a military aeroplane being refused due to ac which were still taxiing!) - I'm sure that some will be most interested in that statement of yours.

Extolled the virtues of the Brize CTR? No way, not me!!

Edited to add - actually, it was a couple of civil Class D ATSUs at whom I was aiming my invective. But if the cap fits....

[Vage Rot]

:p

Why not close each Stationin turn? In that way, the govt would upgrade the accommodation to a standard suitable for prisoners/asylum seekers.

We could then take the Station back when our crappy accommodation has been brought up to a standard fit for a prisoner but obviously too good for those of us that pay to ive in it!!!

Rant Over!

[Gainesy]

VR!
Classic.
Please accept the Sir Humphrey Award for Outstandingly Devious Civil Service Policy.

Hmm, ddn't they do that in reverse? Acklington, Stradishall etc?:(