Sad, but not surprising..

[Radar Muppet]

Itty-bitty Centre friend tells me Typhoon/EF2000 is officially delayed. Again. A year this time. Come on Hoon, admit you screwed Dr Kelly and admit we screwed Typhoon; then cancel it and buy something that works and is needed.

[rivetjoint]

Isn't is cos of the brakes?

[flyboy007]

AAAAAHHHHHHH. The great British procurement system; A pleasure to see it at work.

[Grimweasel]

I bet the UK will see a REAL Typhoon by the time the aircraft under the same name is ready for service!! (Just don't ask Micheal Fish to predict it!!!!)

[soddim]

In my experience if you keep wooing her and she still doesn't turn up it's time to kick her into touch. So forget the expensive bitch that obviously does not work and find one that does for less than half the price.

She might have a decent name like F-16 but be unloved and left lying in the desert or one might wait for a cuddly one like JSF to come of age. One thing's for sure, if you keep on throwing money at BWoS, eventually you'll get a real tart.

[Chalkstripe]

Just a quick question.. what sort of delays have been experienced with other aircraft (e.g.F-15, F-16, F-18, F-22 etc).

Is Typhoon really that delayed, or is it pretty much par for the course?

Cheers
CS

[Mr C Hinecap]

The thing is, you are supposed to LEARN from your mistakes.

Always better to learn from others, tho.

[Training Risky]

I think you are all being a little unfair and short-sighted. Stand back and look at the big picture... (mumble, more cliches)

I mean, how is our illustrious deputy PM, (2 Jags, 'Scrapper', 'Steward', Prescott) going to get re-elected if the BwoS factory in his constituency is closed?

(Tongue so far in cheek it hurts)

[soddim]

Maybe it's just a very smart move - keep delaying the orders you've got and you can justify the company by its' order book.

[Echo 5]

Soddim,

I've enjoyed all your Posts in "The Magic Kingdom" and share your views on BWoS management in KSA but I think you are being a bit unfair in painting all of BAe with the same brush.
Let's face it most of the delays appear to have been caused by dithering politicians in at least two of the partner nations and our own MOD who decided at the 11th hour that they wanted a two seater as a well as a single seater. With the best will in the world you just cannot make such radical changes to an aircraft design and maintain the delivery programme.
You must also remember that BAe only produce the finished article and rely on dozens of suppliers worldwide to produce the component bits and pieces that make up the aircraft.

PS. Have you now left the sandpit ?

[Biggus]

Mr C Hinecap

I am sorry to have to correct you, but you are no longer required to learn from your mistakes, at least not in the UK military, or is that just the RAF?

The phrase "lessons learned" in reports, etc, has been replaced by the phrase "lessons identified". Why you may ask? Simple really, if the lesson has been learned then a mistake should not be repeated, but if it has merely been identified it can be repeated again with no comeback. I KID YOU NOT!!!

Luckily for me retirement is not far away, wonder if we will have long hair, a union, be able to smoke pot and have sponsorship logos on the sides of our aircraft by then. The way things are going I would not be surprised!!

[soddim]

Echo 5,

Yes, I probably am being a bit unfair to BWoS - even they on their own could not be so bad as to delay things so much and still deliver systems that do not come up to spec. The military and the politicians must share some of the blame.

They could, in all fairness have delivered an F-16 equivalent into service many years ago if they had been asked to do so and had it funded. In those days they still knew how to do it - sadly we seem have lost that ability and politicians are largely responsible. Nowadays the only way we get a major system through to delivery is multi-national and then we get every other nation's ineptitude too.

Yes, I saw the sense of leaving the sand pit and BWoS at precisely the right time. I would like to think that the parent management is a darned sight better than the sand pit but I have my doubts.

[ORAC]

Just to balance the criticism, the F-22 isn't perfect.

AWST - 13 Oct:

An F/A-22 pilot declared an inflight emergency, causing the Air Force to convene a safety investigation board. Returning one of the fighters from a maintenance site at Palmdale to Edwards AFB, California, Sept 19, the pilot encountered an "unexpected response." The aircraft is said to have lost significant altitude and was barely recovered, but landed successfully.........

[BEagle]

I've just been watching an excellent documentary on the F-15 on the History Channel.

Which makes you wonder why we've wasted quite so much time and money on 't Bungling Baron Waste o' Space's overpriced, underperforming and invariably delayed products..... An off-the shelf purchase of F-15Cs and F-15Es a decade ago would have done us proud!

[ftrplt]

Beagle, exactly what the RAAF should have done also (dont need the C, the E is better!)

A joint RAF / RAAF buy, who woulda thunk it!

[Mr C Hinecap]

Biggus

Ref your point of long hair et al. The Dutch military seem to have a great time wherever they go - pretty efficient, too - apart from the union rules and calling tea breaks - but bl00dy civil way of conducting business.

Echo 5. Your line of defense is not great - ie BWoS relying on suppliers from all over the globe. I am a Supplier who would get kicked if he used that feeble line - they are responsible and takes the money, so they take the hits.

[Jackonicko]

"An off-the shelf purchase of F-15Cs and F-15Es a decade ago would have done us proud!"

With the benefit of 20:20 hindsight, the F-15 would have been a good solution to today's requirement. Though it would have been rather expensive (even with all the inflation and increases, and even counting in R&D EF Typhoon's unit cost is lower than that of an F-15E). Though it would have been almost impossibly costly to operate and support (EF Typhoon has contractually guaranteed low operating and support costs which are a fraction of those of today's combat aircraft).

But who could have predicted that the development of the threat would come to a total, grinding halt overnight? Not the yanks (otherwise they wouldn't have launched the F-22), nor the French, nor Sweden, etc.

And EF Typhoon was developed to meet a developed threat - a baseline aircraft being assumed to be a developed Su-27/35 with parity assumed in pilot training and ability, radar and weapons performance. (With Israeli assistance, who's to say that such a threat aircraft isn't still possible, via upgrade?

And against such an aircraft, today's F-15 would be mincemeat.

Maybe the Yanks are wrong to press on with an aircraft (F-22) which would win 95% of the time against such an aircraft, but the security offered by an aircraft which is cheap, and yet which promises to win about 85% of the time (Typhoon) seems worthwhile to me.

EF Typhoon has had its share of problems, and I have no doubt that more will follow, but I'm unconvinced that its problems go any deeper than those of the F-22 and JSF. Its delays have been (and in my view will continue to be) rather worse, because the Quadrinational nature of the programme (and the fact that the Germans are involved at all) makes delay inevitable.

German procrastination and prevarication has already cost this programme more in slipped timescale than any technical issues, and the bulk of the ongoing delays seem to be the result of German needs to cut costs.

It'll probably be like the DASS all over again. It will be made a customer option, at huge cost and after massive delay, in order to let the Germans opt out, and then the ****ers will opt back in and order it anyway.

Tornado and Typhoon both prove that if you want an on-time, on-budget military aircraft programme then don't let the Germans in as partners.

[Echo 5]

Mr C,

" they are responsible and takes the money, so they takes the hits ".

And quite right too.

The point that I was trying to make, albeit badly, was that with so many Suppliers involved and so many parts to Procure, it is not an overnight job. When you consider that some parts, particularly Avionics,may have a lead time in excess of 12 months then it is no surprise that there are delays. Excuse over.