Royal Nepal 757

[himalaya]

Right after the take off from Kathmandu bound for Hongkong. The Royal Nepal B757-200 experienced HSI failure followed by ADI, FMC, DME, RMI, Autothrottle and ultimately Autopilot.

For almost 1 hour the aircraft was flown manually with megnetic heading Indicator and some guidance from the Radar control Kathmandu.

The weather was marginal, raining in some places. Initially the crew headed the Aircraft towards New Delhi as it was the take off departure alternate Airport. However when the weather improved at Kathmandu, the crew were able to Land the aircraft back to Kathmandu Airport safely with the help from ATC.

A classic example of Good Crew co-ordination. :O

[jtstream]

Well, maybe you nevere dealt with Nepalese pilots. Unfortunately I had on training matters, and too many things can be said...
Anyway good work!

[mono]

They lost all those systems? On both sides? What on earth caused that?

Still glad they got it down safely. used to work for them many moons ago (about 5 1/2 yrs ago) and must say I did enjoy myself.

It is hard to describe the beauty of a Himalayan sunrise or sunset, especially when the light refracts off the shimmer of a typical Kathmandu smog!! Sigh!! ;)

[drive a bus]

@ himalaya:

"A classic example of Good Crew co-ordination"

Maybe good crew coordination while flying, but what about decision making. They had a Take Off Alternate, why they didn´t us it? What I understand is, that they lost nearly all avionics. Radar in this part of the world in not very helpful. So they did a visual approach RWY 02? Of course it´s their homebase, but be honest, do you think it´s a good idea to shoot an approach there? I had been in KTM several times, I wouldn´t like to do an approach with more than 6 degree angle in marginal weather.

Maybe you have another opinion, but that´s mine.

[himalaya]

They lost the instruments on the both sides. Visual approach was made on RWY 20. I don't know how serious it was as I do not fly B757 but the first hand information from the crew made it sound pretty scary to me, I definitely feel a disaster was avoided. A Safe landing was made.
A night before the same aircraft had experienced left engine vibration.

cheers !

himalaya.

[middlepath]

Looks like they need to improve maitenance standard. Avionics they have lost made them fly like c150 as we did during PPL.As a pilot we are paid and trained for it.

jetstream-
By the way I had similar experience like yours with CH and UK pilots while I was teaching them bush flying in Africa.

[himalaya]

To jetstream:

Being a Nepalese Pilot, I would like to know What is it that you know about the Nepalese pilots which I do not know. Had this happened to Any europian or western crew Bet you would have as many things to say !?!
When ever I put the aircraft down at lukla or Simikot airport (1600-1800 ft RWY, one way approach, upslope and no missed approach possible), during 15 kts cross wind, I see the looks on the faces of some of the foreign pilots who come to visit these places.

To drive a bus:


The thing I have learnt over the years is, during an emergency, the hell with every thing, First thing Just fly the aircraft ,get it under your control. Second thing, if the problem can't be fixed in the air, get it down safely. I think the crew did exactly that.
I did not know there was an alternative to a safe landing. And what would that be ?
Maybe you have another opinion, but that´s mine.

To mono:

That is exactly the reason why I am stucked out here ! Getting paid to see the himalayas everyday. Bet you do miss it !!

[OVERTALK]

Is this a recent incident or one that actually occurred quite some time ago?

Date? Flight No?

Seems fairly similar to that Martinair 767 incident of 28 May 96

[middlepath]

this is just couple days ago. Strangely in this company, Operation Director happened to be
a F/O and he has ordered to suspend the crew involved including engineers.

[duir]

I have flown to Kathmandu twice, once with Royal Nepal and once with Biman Bangledesh. The scenery as you approach is unreal. but by far the best flights I have ever been on were the flights to and from Lukla and the flight from Jomson to Pockhara.
Its true what Himalaya says about passengers faces as you see the tiny spot on the side of a mountain that these guys land on at altitude and no second chances. It really is the most awesome bit of flying. The guy that taught me to fly who has in excess of 16000 flying hours when shown the photos of my trip to Lukla said "thats real flying that is!!!"
By the way Himalaya which airline do you fly for?

[himalaya]

To Overtalk:

The incident took place on the 9th Oct '03. Flight No: RA409, B757-200.

To Middle path:

I must admit that you are well informed about the maintainance not being too good in RA Jets, and about the Operation Director Being a F/O who ordered the crew grounded.

To Duir:

Its true about the satisfaction and chill people experience going to these places. The approaches and landings are equally exciting every time we go there. I fly for one of the Twinotter operators out here.

Here is the Latest about the Incident:

At the KTM ground, before depature for Hongkong, the B757/200 Flight NO: RA 409 had an IRS problem where by one of the IRS was not working. The Commander had asked the Engineers to fix the problem before the flight as they thought they would need it during an approach to Hongkong Airport. God knows what the Engineers did, all the 3 IRS were gone. BTW I agree 100% with middle path regarding the maintenance not being too good on the RA Jets. (The engineers seem to be more interested in flying allowances than keeping the Aircraft Airworthy. That is the reason why the RA B757 Jet Engineers have more flight hours than the RA B757 Captains and co-pilots. So, you can guess the qualifications of the Engineers youself). Later, after fiddling with the problem (I wouldn't call it fixing the problem) for 30 minutes the Engineers were able to recover 2 out of the 3 IRS. At that ,point the Commander asked them to replace the unserviceable IRS. Although the company had a brand new IRS in their stuck, the Engineers told the Commander that the couldn't do it (Your guess is as good as mine) because they didn't have the qualification to do it !?! So, what the Engineers did was release the flight under MEL.

Right after the T/O on IGRIS 1A departure while the aircraft was turing right to intercept the 4 DME ARC, The aircraft lost both the remaining IRS. Followed by all the navigation equipments failure, Ex. all auto pilots gone, HSI gone, ADI gone, Auto Throttle Gone, No vor, No dme no RMI as well as Yaw Damper failure.

Condition was marginal VFR at the time of departure. The crew had with them the magnetic (Ball) compass, standby Artificial Horizon to control the Aircraft and all manual flying. For about 45-50 minutes the Aircraft was trying to fly VFR under cloudy condition and the Aircraft was headed towards New Delhi. But Later as the WX at KTM Airport improved the crew decided to Land back at KTM Airport.

The factor that contributed to the safe Landing of B757 was crew's knowledge about the local terrain and that KTM is their home base. Had this happended (I hope and pray that it doesn't happen again to anyone else) to some other Foreign Airline, I feel it would have been Very Very Difficult (but not impossible) to come out of the Kathmandu valley which is sorrounded by mountains.

For your kind information, There has been a number of Aircrashes around the mountains surrounding the KTM Valley mostly during their approach to KTM and some during the departure from KTM Airport.

1. PIA (A310)- on sierra approach, 8 DME south of KTM
2. Lufthansa Cargo(B727) - South West departure at 6 DME South west
3. Skyline Airways(DHc-6/300)- on approach from at 15 Dme south.
4. Necon Air(HS 748) - on approach to KTM at 7 DME west.
5. Thai Airways (A310) - on approach to KTM at 20 DME North.
6. DC-3 : During approach 9 Dme east of KTM
7 DC-3 : during approach 11 Dme south of KTM
8. Royal Nepal DHC-6/300: During Departure at 2 DME North.
9. Royal nepal PC-6 : During Departure at 4 Miles North.

Have a good day and happy landings everybody.

Himalaya.

[middlepath]

It is very serious when you loose all irs in this type of aeroplane. By the way you will loose antiskid too, if you are returning to KTM with heavy weight LDG.

[Dagger Dirk]

Suspect faulty (Murphied) IRS triplex reconnection/re-racking by grndcrew following attempts to isolate a faulty centre IRS for MEL. #One hooked incorrectly to centre (dead), #two hooked up to #one etc - and circumstance enabled by one IRS being MEL'd out of the picture. (but the one thus disabled by the MEL attempt was probably a functioning one). The perils of inadvertent interchange of units or their connections....

Fault probably set off by TOGA press (for IRS reset) on runway line-up....and real conflict started once aircraft turned for SID ( IGRIS 1A departure) and corrective voltages (to precess gyros etc) were being applied (but all of these now being to the wrong place, i.e. wrong corrector coils). Systems failures followed because all the required input data-feeds were either not forthcoming or were being actively rejected, not crc-checking or wrong polarity.

If it is possible to murphy an installation, sooner or later someone will do it. Having all the leads off and being in a rush to replace two and MEL the third sounds like a classic "departure rush" setup.

[himalaya]

Middle Path :

You are right, there was no autobrake (antiskid) during the landing.

Dagger Dirk !

BINGO !!!

The involved cockpit crew are still grounded. The hot rumor in Aviation circle in Nepal is that, the present F/O operations director and his dy. director, flight operations (international sector) have been trying set up the cockpit crew, for personal reasons. The reason ? The cockpit crew are disliked by the f/o operations director and his dy. director flight operations-international. btw these directors (lets not name them here) have had their own history, one had gone to the jail in the past and the other have had series of incidents being drunk while on flight duty being the latest. But that's royal nepal airlines. if you can catch a politician, even if you are a trainee pilot, u can become an operations director.

btw unlike royal nepal, the private operators in nepal are very professional and have been maintaining their aircraft very well.

[mono]

Dagger Dirk,

Have you ever been in a 757 e&e bay or even a 757 come to that! The utter tosh you wrote there is typical of the uninformed bull***t written by people who do not know.

757 IRS's are hard wired through their back plates there are no connectors to swap. It is only possible to swap units not individual connectors. TOGA press does not reset the IRU's, it acts as a mark, a start point for the IRU (runway threashold is usually the datum for IRS PPOS).

I personally, without all the facts, have no idea what caused the multiple system failure (and I have 17 yrs B757 avionc experience) I do know from personal experience that the internal politics within RNAC makes it very difficult to do the simplest things (like getting spares from the store).

For me I'm glad they got it down safely, and will wait for more info before I speculate.

[Bus429]

Mono,

Have a look at your private messages.

[LatviaCalling]

Himalaya,

My father-in-law was a U.S. communications officer stationed in New Delhi and he also covered Nepal. He's dead now, but we used to have some interesting conversations about his air travels in Asia when I was a young student pilot.

One of the places he mentioned, I believe, was Simikot, where he said the runway ended and that was it -- a 1,000 or 2,000 drop to the nearest ground and mountains on the other end. It could have been somewhere else, but the message is clear. No missed approaches.

At the time he said most of the flights in and out of Nepal (this being in the late 1950s) were piloted mainly by ex-pats from Britain and the U.S. The Burma hump warriors who stayed behind for whatever reasons. He said a lot took to the bottle. He had one flight out on a DC-3 where the pilot stood beside the plane with a bottle of Scotch waiting for the sunrise and as soon as it had crested, took two big swigs and said, "Let's go."

My father-in-law died peacefully in Virginia at the age of 84, although he told me a number of hair-raising flying incidents while based in New Delhi in the 1950s.

[middlepath]

Most unusual things happening is uasual in this country.

It is unusual to appoint a F/O as operations director. But it is usual in Nepal, when relations with minister is strengthened by donation.The said ops director was jailed on charges of forgery for smugling ilegal immigrants to Japan.
Second in line in ops for international ,landed at Delhi without landing clearence on wrong runway. Doctors should monitor more seriously this guys health since he is overweight,suspected of sugar problem besides alcohol. I think this is the begining of the end for this company. Professionals are overrun by unprofesionals.It is duty of Every responsible person to protect life of innocents on board and ground. Passengers will think twice before buying tickets.

[Faire d'income]

As someone unfimiliar with the type and the territory this thread makes incredible reading. Scandalous statements about the senior staff aside it would appear to me that the crew did a good job.

On the tech side could I ask 757 jockeys would a triple IRS failure take out RDMI ( or its 757 equivalent ) as well as the EHSI?

[OVERTALK]

Faire d'income

Perhaps a more illuminating question might be: "what could cause a triple INS failure? (albeit one of them was disconnected after being identified as failed and the a/c released under MEL). Is it all about the voting integrity of a triple INS compared to the disputational contention of only having two INS/IRS in service.... and those two being incorrectly racked, connected or otherwise hooked up.

What does this incident/near accident tell us about MEL?

Maybe Mono (the Mouth) could elucidate on the likely possibilities - if he wasn't so busy being highly sanctimonious.... and actually knows what he's talking about. But I fear that he's hiding behind that non-speculative stance - as his ilk often do when equally frustrated about such an event (yet allegedly highly qualified enough to be supposedly able to analyze it).

Without some knowledgeable speculation, given the nature of Royal Nepal's culture and Boeing's propensity for concealing bad PR, the incident will otherwise be lost as a learning experience.

[Bus429]

Faire d'income
Triple IRS failure will cause loss of both EADIs, EHSIs, RMDIs, IVSIs and all equipment fed by IRS. (FCCs, TMC etc). All alternate flight instrument selections, other than alternate air data, would also be useless. You are down to standby instruments.
It would be interesting to know how all three failed (if indeed they did).

[QAVION]

I would recommend reposting some of these messages on the Tech Forum, but be prepared for more "utter tosh" comments. I'd especially like to hear the reaction to Dagger Dirk's message :E

Re RDMI...
The DME, at least, should have been working on the RDMI's (with manual VOR tuning).

Re TOGA
Pushing the TOGA switch doesn't do anything to the IRS's. Only the FMC position is affected (where GPS is not a valid FMC input).

Re Antiskid

Antiskid does not equal Autobrake (two different things... although the Autobrake is dependent on a functioning A/S system.... and a functioning IRS system (unless we're talking RTO)).

If the 757 is like the 767, the Antiskid system only needs the IRS's for hydroplane/touchdown protection. I'd wager that the other antiskid functions would be ok (allowing normal manual braking with antiskid protection for the rest of the rollout).

Re triple IRS failure
It's not unheard of, but flight crew error has been the cause on at least one occasion (quick realignment at the threshold + takeoff roll started too early). I wonder if they tried ATTitude mode after they lost their displays? (This would have given them attitude and, if they entered a valid heading, VOR and perhaps a fully functioning ILS display).

Regards.
Q.

[Bus429]

Quavion,

Good points - I should have made it clear that I was referring to those systems, or parts of systems, requiring attitude, heading, acceleration etc.

[middlepath]

Q

IRS:
Agreed to all your tchnical details. The airlines in question never does quick aligning of irs, Boeing taught them to do only full align. Therefore slim chance of crew inadvertently leaving irs in align mode. The 757 of RNAC has no gps backup.

RDMI:
Yes, manual tuning of vor NO 1 gives needle pointing to the staion but without HDG information, since heading info is derived from irs.They do not practice std by (only) instrument approach during PC.Besides, it is a VOR/DME 15mile arc approach for RWY 02 in KTM.

Yes, Auto brake does not function without A/S of Normal brake (R-sys). However, A/S functions normaly on ALT Brake (L-sys) and also RSV Brakes.

[mono]

Well,

Away for a few days and it seems I have a new handle (the mouth), nice ring to it.

For Overtalk,

My qualifications are my concern, but for your info I am a UK qualified licenced engineer, both CAA and JAA with 757 A/B2/C type rating on my licence, which I have held since '87. I am also an incorporated engineer and a member of the RAeS.

From August '97 to March 98, I was employed at RNAC by a western 3rd party maintenance organisation to oversee the line maintenance at KTM on RNAC's B757's (the company had been contracted to carry the maintenance for RNAC, both line and hangar).

When I have more time to write I may say a little more about my experiences at RNAC, Indeed I may speculate a little more about the possible causes of the triple IRS failure.

For now I will say this. I suspect the IRS failure may have been down to poor racking. I recall replacing an IRU at RNAC which required some force to correctly rack. It may be that others were equally difficult to rack resulting in poor pin contact which became apparent as T/O power was applied. This may provide some clue as to why the crew did not, or were not able to, select ATT to restore at least horizontal and directional information to the EHSI and EADI, as I am sure this would be a QRH action (I don't have a QRH to hand to verify)

This scenario may also explain why at first there was only one U/S IRU, then all 3, then back to just one, as some re-racking may have taken place to attempt to restore servicability and perhaps move a U/S IRU from the left side to another position to restore GPWS data (IRU is hard wired not switched into the GPWC, so a U/S IRU can mean certain GPWS terrain envelope modification is not enabled).I cannot say more than this as I don't know enough information as to the current RNAC a/c mod state.

Qavion, You are of course right, TOGA press sets the datum for FMGC PPOS (runway threashold). The 757 anti-skid is identical in operation to the 76 with the exception that the normal a/skid uses the right system not the centre.

Hope this clarifies things.

Cheers,

Mono (the mouth)

:}

[lamjura]

"Most unusual things happening is uasual in this country.

It is unusual to appoint a F/O as operations director. But it is usual in Nepal, when relations with minister is strengthened by donation.The said ops director was jailed on charges of forgery for smugling ilegal immigrants to Japan.
Second in line in ops for international ,landed at Delhi without landing clearence on wrong runway. Doctors should monitor more seriously this guys health since he is overweight,suspected of sugar problem. I think this is the begining of the end for this company. Professionals are overrun by unprofessionals.It is duty of Every responsible person to protect life of innocents on board and ground. Passengers will think twice before buying tickets."

Agree 100% with middle path on "begining of the end for this company". Having known how poor their maintainence is, the qualifications of senior staffs and flight punctuality, I do not prefer travelling with them unless I have no other choice. Thats my personal opinion.

[Blacksheep]

This thread is a grand example of uninformed speculation. Some of the posts are outrageous to say the least and many more are downright defamatory, but at no time has there been an accurate statement of the actual symptoms of the original defect, nor of the procedures that were then followed by the RNAC engineers before they raised an ADD on the centre IRS.

Just to keep the pot boiling, perhaps the experts here may wish to discuss among themselves what happens if incorrect longitude coordinates are entered into the IRS.

Bus429 - please check your private messages.

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Bus429]

Blacksheep - nothing in my PM

[mono]

Blacksheep,

A significant positional error entered into the IRU (comared to the last recorded PPOS) will cause the align light to flash, prompting the crew to re-enter the a/c position.

If for some reason the crew were able to enter a wildly erronous position (longitude - I suspect you realise that the entry of a large error in latitude will not allow the IRU(s) to align) then when entering the flight plan, a route continuity (or similar) message will appear as the departure airport will not be the present location.

Even allowing for this, there would be nothing to prevent the crew from selecting ATT on the IRMP, following the system failure, to restore the horizon ball and entering a/c heading to restore the compass rose. It appears from the information we have however that this was not (or could not) be carried out.

P.S. check your pm's

[Blacksheep]

Enter one minute error in Longitude (roughly 67 n.m) and the three IRUs find they are no longer at the last position in which they were shut down. The align lights flash. Re-enter the same coordinates and the IRUs are informed that they have been moved to a new location in the meantime, so they accept that as the new starting position. Now get airborne and the FMS begins position checks and cannot resolve the differences. The FMS shuts down and blanks the Nav displays - NCD.

Nothing to do now but select ATT, enter heading from the standby compass and cry for help from ATC.

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[QAVION]

"Enter one minute error in Longitude (roughly 67 n.m)..."

And speaking of finger trouble... ;)

I think you meant to type in one degree, Blacksheep... otherwise the world would be 1,447,200nm in circumference (unless I've hit the wrong buttons on my calculator :} ).

I'm wondering how long it would take to confuse the IRS's if you only had one minute of error?

Regards.
Q.

P.S. As co-incidence would have it, carrying out a Nav Database load last night on a 767 and experiencing some problems getting the FMC to accept it after a power interrupt half way through... I experienced a Last Position reset to N0000.0/E00000.0. You can bet I was very careful when entering a new position (after reading this message thread). ;)

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~b744er/767/N00000E000000.jpg

[Blacksheep]

So, now you see how easy it is then? ;)

[In the days of the steam driven Carousel N00.00.0 E000.00.0 was known as "The Elephants Graveyard" Legend has it that in the seventies, dozens of 747s could be found circling Zero-Zero until they ran out of fuel or their crews awoke from their slumber and entered the next waypoint in the flight plan...]

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[himalaya]

This in addition to my post regarding the Emergency Landing of Royal Nepal B-757 in kathmandu. Here is the actual copy of the Aircraft Tech. Log book. BTW The crew are still grounded by the F/O Operations Director till date.

Before the Flight (As logged by the Engineer)

1. C IRU INOP & ADD 11001 Raised & Released on MEL 34-21-1 C of C.

After the Emergency ( As Logged by the Cockpit crews)

“Just after Take Off aircraft HSI route went blank with FD, VOR, NDB, A/T, Yaw Damper, FMC, ADF, Autobrk not functioning. Landed back in Kathmandu with the only reference to Magnetic Compass.”

(MCDP Readings):
A/P DISC.
IRU C/FCC C;
A/P DISC
IRU L
A/P DISC
IRU R
A/P CTN
MODE ERR:

After the maintenance work was done (As Logged by Engineers in the Logbook)

1. L FMC replaced due route data not displayed on EHSI in map mode database updated. Ref TLP 108675 for FMS. FMS ops chkd satis. IRU ops chkd, Align lights flashing on all positioins aft present position reinserted 3 times, now satis, L IRU replaced as a precaution, all IRU operation checked satis. RDMI indication normal. Yaw Damper test Satis. Auto brake bit shows L IRU, RE L IRU replaced & Autobrake satis.
MCDP test shows L & R IRU/FCC test 01, satis. FMC test 10 Satis. test 30 Satis.

2. Over diffected Nav system’s indication & test normal.

3. CTR IRU SWAPPED WITH R IRU Defect remains. Returned to original position co-ordinates re entered 3 times, now OK FLT evaluatioin RA 409/410 date satis. cleared.


Any ideas & comments experts ?

[jtstream]

When you force the position several times, wheter it is right or wrong...the system would take it...