Fatal P2 Air Tanker Crash Southern California

[av8boy]

I don't see that anyone has mentioned this yet. Because I find ANY air tanker crew deaths worth mentioning, I'm posting...

Note: If I were a guessing man, I'd guess this was roughly a 7 or 8 mile final to runway 24 at SBD (10001 x 180 ft. / 3048 x 55 m). SBD is the former Norton Air Force Base. I, myself, spent some four years flying out of there while in the USAF (in its later years this base was almost 100% C141). Terrain to the east-northeast: last 3.5 miles or so on final=flat (field elevation 1156 at 26 aprch end). Beyond four mile final for 26 terrain rises rapidly (or descends rapidly if you're on final). Within 15 miles of the end of the runway the terrain is above 10,000 feet...

I fully expect to be corrected by folks with careers or locations closer to this accident. Just mentioned the above to put it in geographic context.


Dave

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Firefighting Air Tanker Crash Kills Two
Fri Oct 3,10:38 PM ET Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!



REDLANDS, Calif. - A firefighting air tanker crashed Friday in the San Bernardino National Forest, bursting into flames and killing both people aboard, authorities said.


AP Photo



The plane, contracted to the U.S. Forest Service, was flying to San Bernardino when it went down late Friday morning about four miles outside Redlands, Donn Walker of the Federal Aviation Administration (news - web sites) said.


Wreckage was spotted in the foothills at about the 3,500-foot level, said Chip Patterson of the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department.


The tanker, owned by Minden Aircorps, was one of two heading to the San Bernardino Air Tanker Base after firefighting duty in Arizona, said Matt Mathes, a Forest Service spokesman.


One plane landed safely but the other was reported 30 minutes overdue, he said. Shortly afterward, authorities received a report of wreckage in the national forest.


"I don't want to say anything until I learn more. We have never had an accident in the 14-year history of our company," said Len Parker, Minden's chief executive officer.


It was the eighth air tanker crash in the United States in the last decade, according to the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho.


The crash occurred about eight miles from the airport in a remote, brushy area about 70 miles east of Los Angeles, said Ruth Wenstrom, a San Bernardino National Forest spokeswoman. She said it was unclear whether fog reported at the base extended into the mountains.


National Transportation Safety Board (news - web sites) members were en route to determine the cause of the crash.


The nation's fleet of air tankers are owned and flown by private companies under contract with the Forest Service. Many are retired military or commercial transport planes built decades ago.


The aircraft that crashed Friday was a twin-engine P2-V, said Jedd Kinzie of the Sierra Front Interagency Dispatch Center in Minden, Nev. The planes, known as Neptunes, were built in the 1940s and 1950s as intelligence-gathering and anti-submarine aircraft, then re-equipped as firefighters.

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IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 299MA Make/Model: P2 Description: P-2D TO H, SP-2, P2V NEPTUNE (L-426/726/
Date: 10/03/2003 Time: 1830

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed

LOCATION
City: REDLANDS State: CA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
N299MA, P2 TANKER, OPERATED BY THE US FORESTRY SERVICE, FLYING FROM
PRESCOTT AZ TO SAN BERNADINO, CA CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES IN THE
MOUNTAINOUS TERRAIN 4 MI NE OF REDLANDS, CA. ACFT WAS DESTROYED AND THE TWO
PERSONS ON BOARD SUSTAINED FATAL INJURIES. REDLANDS, CA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 2
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: NOT REPORTED



OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Unknown Operation: General Aviation

Departed: PRESCOTT, AZ PRC Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: SAN BERNADINO, CA S Flt Plan: NONE Wx Briefing: N
Last Radio Cont: HDF360025
Last Clearance: UNKN

FAA FSDO: RIVERSIDE, CA (WP21) Entry date: 10/06/2003
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N-number : N299MA
Aircraft Serial Number : 147961
Aircraft Manufacturer : LOCKHEED
Model : P2V-7
Engine Manufacturer : WRIGHT
Model : R3350-42
Aircraft Year : 1955
Owner Name : MINDEN AIR CORP
Owner Address : 1390 CREEK DR
GARDNERVILLE, NV, 89410-6626
Type of Owner : Corporation
Registration Date : 11-Apr-1991
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Restricted
Approved Operations : Forest


[Note: Apparently one of two P2s owned by Minden Air]
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Photo of aircraft pre-accident:

http://www.rob.clubkawasaki.com/jas3922.jpg

[hobie]

did anyone notice the year of manufacture ??? .....

almost 50 years ago !

hobie .....

[Conc]

As with any accident a tragedy. I was in Prescott at the time and watched the aircraft take off. Condolensces to the crew's families and friends.

[B Sousa]

Hobie writes:"did anyone notice the year of manufacture ??? .....

almost 50 years ago !

hobie ....."

The history of Aerial Firefighting in the U.S. is very interesting. When I started out as a seasonal worker while in College many years ago, I started out as a ground person actually out cutting fire line in Northern California. Steep, Rugged country. We were bombarded by B-17s, B-24s, TBMs, F7Fs, PBYs and other thing I didnt even know what they were. Then came Helicopter support which saved a lot of hiking for us as ground crews.
A lot of those old aircraft flew up until a few years ago. That coupled with the fact they ALL flew on Government Contract. It took a few accidents to phase out the oldest of them. The Government today still uses the Heavies on a Contract basis , but its now into newer aircraft and lots of Helicopters. Many of the Helicopters are also surplus military. All the Skycranes that you see had there roots with the CH-54. which was built for the Army by Sikorsky. Its now being built by Erickson and extremely popular. Many of the MIL aircraft were former Military and the Russians wrote the book on Heavy Helicopters..
California is the only state that I know of that uses their own aircraft besides contracting. They use the old Grumman S-2, although they have spent a ton to refurbish them. The UH-1 that they have for their helicopter work is really a fine machine. http://www.fire.ca.gov/fireemergencyresponse/aviation/aviation.asp
Rumor control has it that some private companies may be coming out with an aerial tanker that will amaze the world. Im certain it will happen soon.
Either way, the old militarys will be flying for some time, they just will be newer than the ones I used to see....
As to this sad accident, I have seen no information as to what caused it. When its said and done Im sure the answer will be obvious, but I doubt that it will be because the Aircraft was over 50 years old.

[hobie]

BS .... many thanks for taking the time out to reply in such an informative way .....

I have the greatest admiration for the guys flying these tankers (and of course, on the ground) and would feel greatly disturbed if very old aircraft were being used simply for cost reduction reasons ..... 50 years is such a long, long time !!!! .....

certainly all the guys involved deserve the very best and most suitable equipment

cheers .... hobie .....

[411A]

Used to fly into Redlands on a regular basis on a Lockheed contract, and the terrain rises rapidly to the east northeast.
Suspect that the folks in the P2V were trying to scud run into SBD, as the weather was low stratus at the time.
ILS has always been available for rny06. NDB/GPS as well.
Very bad news indeed.

The folks that fly these aircraft are not paid enough, IMHO.:(

[B Sousa]

Hobie writes: "feel greatly disturbed if very old aircraft were being used simply for cost reduction reasons "

Well I hate to pop your bubble, but that is a factor. BUT not one that jeopardizes safety. Common sense says that a Company can get an old airframe, cheaper than buying a brand new C-130 or Bombardier.
The contracts let by the Government would not pay enough for companies to buy new toys and still make a profit. The Only time you will see Aircraft that have been refurbished with a deep Pocket is such as the case in California where the State has gotten the S-2, OV-10 or the UH-1 from mothball to great shape. I doubt if any civilian company could afford that. Also consider as California is a Government agency the airframes and spares are "surplus" therefore no cost to them.
Not to make this a competition thing as I think the Aviation Management at California Dept. of Forestry has made California the leader in the world of Aviation Fire Management.
It would be nice to get one of their Pilots in here to comment.....

[hobie]

BS ..... had a feeling I was going to be let down ......

conceptually speaking, sending brave guys out on just about as dangerous a mission as you can get (bar warfare) and expecting them to do it in 50 year old aircraft because thats all that fee's for fire fighting will support, makes me feel sick !!!!

fighting fires with a 50 year old airframes is far from ideal but as you say .... its the pilots involved that can only really give a view beyond dispute


cheers ... hobie ....