Nimrod vs C130 or B707

[Navaleye]

The RAF fitted AIM 9s on the Nimrod presumably in case they came across enemy mariitime patrol a/c such the Argentine 707 or C130. I've often wondered about the practicality of this. Somehow I just can't see a Nimrod being able to stay on the tail of 707 or Herc. They were certainly not built for aerobatics or dog fights. Were the AIM9s just for show?

[bluetail]

AIM9,s were definately not fitted to the Nimrod just for show, there is good video of one actually firing one as part of the trials. and we did so many a MISSILE LOADEX,s throughout the 80,s & 90,s it had to be serious.

The best bit about the MOD was the sight, definately Heath & Robinson inspired, but apparently it worked, Two bits of Clear Plastic with a Cross on one, line up the hole with the cross and bobs your uncle, and only fitted to one side (P1), with the Tone fed in through a redundant intercom circuit.

I doubt the Nimrod could keep behind a Herc because of its pretty decent STOL performance but I reckon it could sort out a 707 no problem.

I,ve been in the back of a Nimrod on more than one occasion when its done a bit of dissimilar against Tornado & F-16 and basically as long as its a reasonably slow tight turning affair it usually doesn't fair to badly particularly against a Tornado, F-16 not so good because of its agility. A bit false I know because either of these would just use a longer range weapon and just pick it off.

I reckon it would easily do a 707 but it would be nice to know if any of our Kipper Fleet breathren have been in the situation.

[FJJP]

The Nimrod would stay with the C130 and give it a hard time - the aerodynamics are similar - but it would easily outclass a 707, which has higher performance aerodynamics. But bear in mind that the vast majority of kills in any war are first pass, not through dogfighting.

[ORAC]

Most aircraft are shot down without even knowing they're under attack. The intention was to sneak up and shoot them in the back when they weren't looking. The biggest asset in that regard was the radar, not turning performance.

[noisy]

What about when the missile ends it's journey? Is a dogfight missile like the AIM-9 really capable of knocking down such a big target?

[Didntdoit]

But ORAC, if the radar is on, you can forget about the sneak up and **** over the head approach.

Noisy, as with any missile, it depends were it hits. An AIM-9 doesn't have to blow a jet to bits, but I reckon that a solid hit on an engine would have a good chance of leading to engine pylon failure which could damage the integrity of the wing which could turn things into a very bad day for the heavy pilot. etc, etc.

Size doesn't always matter.

[ENG]

I suggest a Nimrod could drop an AWACS but would be really struggling to do the same to a 707 unless it could get to Mach .89 without all the aerials et al.. falling off!

[Didntdoit]

but the Mighty Hunter wouldn't need to stay on the tail of a 707, it would just need to crack the angles. What is the speed of an AIM9?;)

[noisy]

Does the AIM-9 pepper the target with shrapnel, which might upset the hydraulics/electrics? Or is it just a big loud bang?

[Didntdoit]

is there a Plumber in the house?

It has, as I understand, an HE Annular blast fragmentation warhead; a direct hit will ruin your day. I'm not sure on the proximity fusing bit, but I reckon a detenation close by will ruin your day. I think peppering with shrapnel is a bit of an understatement........

If you really want to know, try this:

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/aim9.html

[noisy]

mmm.. That'll be a big loud bang then.

[Navaleye]

Interesting article. This was not used in the Falklands. There were no successful head on interceptions. Argentine Mirage IIIs were encountered head on just once but AIM 9L could not acquire. The FAA stopped using the Scissors manouevre for this reason.

[Runaway Gun]

Generally proximity fusing will blow an annular (har har) ring of titanium rods at very high speed, cutting through anything hard like it was soft butter. It will at least hurt !!

[scroggs]

I was very much a participant in the Falklands punch-up, and spent most of the war airborne south of Ascension in the C130. As I remember, the Nimrod AIM-9 fit was a self-defence measure which was felt necessary because some of their missions went well within range of Argentinian fast-jet operations. While it was unlikely that the Nimrod would score a successful engagement against an A4, Mirage or Etendard, the fact that they had something to shoot back with would hopefully dissuade the Argentinians from attempting a target-of-opportunity kill.

There was little chance of a Nimrod 'happening across' the Argentinian 707 or even the C130, and the idea of using the Nimrod as some kind of ad-hoc interceptor is laughable!

As for aerodynamic performance in a turning situation at low-level, while it's totally hypothetical and faintly ridiculous to envisage such a comparison, the C130 is very much more capable than either of the other two in this environment. Its extremely low stall speed coupled with its relatively high 'G' capability and the fact that it creates its own airflow make it a formidable turning machine - ask any FJ pilot who's tried to turn with it! Both the 707 and, to a lesser extent, the Nimrod have wings optimised for high-level, relatively high-mach cruise. These wings, even with lots of high-lift devices, will not generate the same manoeuvre capability as the C130's wing.

[Grimweasel]

Just think, by the time the 'newrod' comes into service the airborne lazer will be operative thus rendering missiles obsolete!!

With the 'other' use of the mighty hunter, why not equip with Brimstone rather than task a FJ. If the Spyrod spots a tgt why not take it out there and then?

[ENG]

All 4 engined aircraft are capable of doing one thing, going in straight lines carrying load; this includes Nimrod, C130, B707, AWACS, C-17 etc

The aim of any heavy under attack is to buy time by either driving around in circles or retrograding as quickly as possible into the CAP or MEZ (Mode 4) until the 'threat' runs to bingo fuel or gets bored with whole event. The success of this depends on alot of luck on both sides.

Aim 9's will do little damage to a heavy as most of the destructive force will be directed into the engine, on the C130 and B707 this will leave the fuselage intact and the aircraft as a whole flyable. I suspect a Nimrod would not be so undamaged.

The question of Nimrod being an offensive AD aircraft is a non starter. Stand-off weapons is the future for this ageing airliner.

[Jackonicko]

Anyone who doubts what an AIM-9 can do should think back. Though heavy, the AA-3 'Anab's warhead was primitive, and look what a mess one of those did to a KAL 747. The aircraft was already doomed when the second hit, I'm told.

And what did our Israeli chums use against that Libyan 727? And how about the airliner which went down after being hit by a stray AIM-9 somewhere in the Med, or am I dreaming that one?

Incidentally, the OR blokes at the time intended the Nimrod/AIM-9 fit as being a deterrent to the snooping Argie 707 and L-188 maritime patrol aircraft.

[Runaway Gun]

Of course, even if the Nimrod couldn't stay in the Herc's turning radius, what's to stop it converting it's speed to height, getting out of plane, and shooting dwn at it?

[Didntdoit]

ENG

Aim 9's will do little damage to a heavy as most of the destructive force will be directed into the engine, on the C130 and B707 this will leave the fuselage intact and the aircraft as a whole flyable.
For how long? The catastrophic loss of an engine in violent circumstances, when the host aircraft will probably be in more than sedate manoeuvre, will surely lead, in most circumstances, to stress damage to the wing and possible structural failure. In my book, a direct AIM9 hit taking out an engine of a 707 type would most probably lead to a kill.

If what you say is correct, airliners have little to worry about from the HH SAM threat, as all the little popsicle would cause is irritation. I think not.

[Pimp Daddy]

What about when the missile ends it's journey? Is a dogfight missile like the AIM-9 really capable of knocking down such a big target?

Doesn't have to knock it down, if it makes it unable to continue it's mission the the aim would have been achieved.

[scroggs]

Absolutely right. The fighter's aim in such circumstances must be to disrupt the truckies' mission, wheras the truckies' intention is to survive by making the kill too time (and fuel)-consuming and difficult. It's interesting to speculate, given the current discussion on this forum, what the result of 'Sharky' Ward's engagement of the Argentinian C130 would have been had the 130 pilot received RAF (or Israeli) DAC training. My own understanding of the event is that the C130 tried to run away in a straight line - bad move! Had he used the tactics we were taught at the time, and which were subsequently refined in the light of experience elsewhere, that C130 should have survived against a limited-endurance heat-seeker and gun-equipped light fighter that wasn't specifically tasked to engage that target.

Hindsight (and a lot of practice) is great, isn't it!?

[BEagle]

In the Vulcan it was certainly possible to make the task of an attacking fighter very difficult but only if you were aware of its missile parameters.

Mixing it in the visual doggers environment ws also quite possible. Once upon a time, the CF decided to re-invent ACM. We had a play with a CF-101 from Chatham. He won the BVR kill - hardly surprising with a nuclear-tipped (did the tree huggers know about that?) missile which would vapourise a few cubic miles of sky and anything in it.... But at the merge, the Voodoo needed a V-sub-C of something like 550 KIAS, whereas the Vulcan would happily turn at 45-60 deg AoB, FL430 and M0.86 all at the same time. A few turns and we were happily tracking the Voodoo inside his enormous turn radius. Listening to the tapes aterwards was hilarious "Where'd he go, where'd he go...sheehit, he's behind us trackin'.....howd'ya let somethin' that big get behind us, hope no-one hears aboooot this!":ok:

[Mightycrewseven]

QUOTE]With the 'other' use of the mighty hunter, why not equip with Brimstone rather than task a FJ[/QUOTE]

Might be a while before 'Newrod' enters service, but watch this space.........:cool:

M7

[Fox3snapshot]

Great stuff Beagle, love the warries mate.

:ok:

[Flap62]

Runaway Gun

This really is into the realms of "it couldn't happen" but if you converted speed to height in something without an off boresite facility, you haven't really solved your problems. You still need to get nose on to the tgt to aquire and with something as "cold" as a Herc you need to get pretty close (this also prevents the Herc with its good rate and radius of turn from getting nose on). This leaves you in your Mighty Hunter with a good bit of nose down against a target at very low altitude - best you get your LSJ on!
The Herc is not the easiest of beasts to shoot down with a 9L, radar laid guns is a different matter.

[doubledolphins]

Wouldn't the best way to protect a Nimbat be an escort of shars?

[keithl]

Anybody else here actually flown a Nimrod in DACT? I got on the tail of a Harrier once. Sure, he'd made a c*ck-up, but it did happen.

[I was Lucky_B*]

Flew against two lightenings once off Flanborough Head, apart from the bit where they sneakily came at us from behind before we were ready:O we held our own pretty well! All we did was turn towards the a/c that was trying to get on our tail, held them off for all of ten minutes then they had to go home.

there was another time out of Gib on Autumn train, targetting the carrier, if you can call it that:D Cheated and used the friendly frequencies to listen to the Awacs guide a SHAR onto us, started to jam it by transmitting the pilot singing very badly:) The SHAR pilot was so annoyed he followed us while we were running away well beyond the FEZ and even wanted to come into the cloud we were hiding in :} Luckily for us the AWACs ordered him home since he was bingo and only had enough juice to return at FL350 and straight onto the deck. we did offer to escort him back, you know, just in case;)

[DummyRun]

Scroggs,
Hear, hear.... as always.

FJJP,
If you actually drive the Mighty Hunter then name the time and place where you want to shoot the ass off my C-130, anytime baby!!!

Flap 62,
Fair one,I think you got me in the end, or was it your wingman?. 1vs 1 next time please!!! oh and this time I'll have 50% more engine power and the G meter and a V stall carot in the HUD.

Load Moving...............

[Blacksheep]

Worrit reely needs is a Phoenix... Hic!

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[rivets]

Nimrod Vs B707 documented in Modern Combat Aircraft #24, BAe Nimrod, by John Chartres.

End of speculation. (& BS)