Use of Checklists

[Continental-520]

What is the general opinion out there on use of checklists? I'm an avid user of the standard flight school/POH bred paper checklist laminated and stuck to the sun visor, but I've recently noticed that there are actually quite a lot of us who rely on 'memory'.

Can't see how they can justify that, myself, but am willing to accept any feasible explanations.

What are your thoughts?


520.

[druglord]

Continental,
Please don't get into the habit of memory checklists. I know I do it sometimes even though I shouldn't, but even in the big ones, when I've been up front, they have cardboard checklists which they read off even after 20 years of flying.

It's not proffesional, can be unsafe, and frowned upon by check airmen, feds etc

[Planned Root]

There are a few around who 'thought' they checked the gear was down using their memory check list only to discover too late that this was not so.

Use your memory checklist but confirm it all by finally using a paper checklist.

[cjam]

Do you think all pilots should use written checklists all the time?
I would be interested to hear what ag pilots think, surely they don't use them with a take off and landing every five minutes or so. Any ag pilots want to tell us how you ensure everything is done, is it just a list off the top of your head or a scan from left to right or a combo of both?

[fruitbatflyer]

Some written checklists still assume that you will do some things from memory. Boeing in particular, keeps the checklist short and expects the pilots to follow set 'scans' and use a bit of common sense. The Poms on the other hand, write bloody great epistles that even tell you to put on your seatbelt and activate the starter switches.

I guess in any relatively complex machine, e.g. retractable gear, you should be using a written checklist, but I confess to resorting to simple memonics for Tiger Moth, Cub etc. on the rare ccasions I get to have a bit of fun in these things. I don't think it is illegal to use a memonic (that's how basic flying used to be taught anyway) and bet no ag pilot reads a checklist at 50 feet! Or at any other time. In fact I have yet to see a written checklist for Tiger Moths and Cubs but they still get issued with a C of A.

Presumably the legal position is covered by what the operator dictates and flying clubs etc would almost certainly cover themselves by requiring use of written material.

[Transition Layer]

:confused:

Does this mean I'm the only person out there who doesn't whip out the checklist on downwind or outbound in the approach to conduct my pre-landing checks?

Whatever happened to BUMFISH on downwind then a PUFL on short finals?

The only time I was taught to refer to a written checklist is for the Pre-Take Off checks, and this is only AFTER I had conducted them from memory.

By the way, I am referring to single pilot ops in single and multi-engine aircraft < 5700kg.

Am I doing something wrong?

TL

[Dale Harris]

Hey TL, how goes it? The answer to your question, given the a/c you are talking about is actually another question. "Have you F*cked Up yet?" If not, then I guess the answer to your question is no! P.S. I don't use them much either, but maybe I should...........

[Continental-520]

Interesting feedback.

I would be interested to hear what ag pilots think, surely they don't use them with a take off and landing every five minutes or so.

Yeah, I suspect this is amongst several things that some ag pilots overlook...(!)

Well, I'm relieved to see it's not only me who relies on them. I was recently criticised for making use of them as it "looks unprofessional and amateur in front of passengers". I would've thought that it would be more reassuring to them, but you can't really answer back to someone who has 20 + years experience over you, even if they're not working for the same company as yourself.


520.

[404 Titan]

Continental-520

I think that there is some confusion as to what a Checklist really is. It isn’t a “To Do List”. A Checklist is a final confirmation that a certain action or actions have been completed for a particular phase of the flight. It isn’t a reminder to do it now. The company that I currently work for “CX” uses laminated paper checklists. My previous employer in Cairns where I use to fly piston twins, used flip-flop checklists mounted on the instrument shroud and the company prior to that in PNG used the same. In all cases it was made clear to me either verbally or in company SOP’s that they were not to be used as a “To Do List”. Checks were to be done from memory, i.e. “BUMFOH”, “PUFF” etc, and then confirmed through a written “Checklist” at the appropriate time using a read and response technique. As a good show of airmanship and professionalism and if you ever aspire to flying for a airline, I would suggest to you that it may be a good time to start using a written checklist in the way that I have described as you will find it is the only way that it is done once you are flying for the majors.
:)
PS: As a matter of safety I wouldn’t be using a written checklist if I were an AG pilot. Common safety would tell you that your attention should be outside the aircraft. As to the so-called pilot with 20 years GA experience who said that it doesn’t look professional in front of passengers. He obviously doesn’t know what he is talking about. I would suggest landing without your wheels down would look even less professional.
:ok:

[Islander Jock]

Continental 520,
I had the same thing about told to me by a certain CP about checklists during a flight check. "looks unprofessional and amateur in front of passengers".
Wonder if we are talking about the same person. Seeing as we seem to be from the same patch of dirt (sand) there's a good chance it is.

pvt email me.

[Dawn Raid]

Hi Cont

How goes it. Still coastal?

[druglord]

Yeah that's how we do it too. You have 'flows' which is where you do everything...ie gear up, flaps up, etc. and then back it up with written checklist.

Unproffessional in front of passengers? well that's just stupid. I never had any pax comment on using a checklist.

[cjam]

I don't think that the ag pilots "overlook" the checklist issue, rather it would be more hinderance than help (not that I've ever done any ag flying). What are the several other things they overlook? From what I've seen so far they seem to be more in touch with the things that really matter than most , in that they go by what works and what keeps them alive rather than what is written in a book.

[TopperHarley]

The ADF aviation safety people did a study on checklists published in a copy of "Spotlight" recently.

Correct me if Im wrong but their experience was that in a lot (majority?) of cases where people had fuked up (gear up etc), the appropriate checklist was either not called or it was called and in the case of multi-crew, the published response was given even though the action hadnd been completed.

[Pinky the pilot]

Having done somewhat in excess of 13,000 glider launches with over 52 in one day several times, nearly all flown in Pa-25s I have only used a written checklist when there was one stuck just above the instrument panel and that was only to confirm the mental checklist. And this was only pre-take off! When you've got numerous gliders in the circuit area you don't want to be reading checklists in flight!
The few times I've flown Pa 31s the printed checklists are always used but as Planned Root points out, only as confirmation of the memory checks.
Also agree with the comments re using written checklists being 'unproffessional....what Rubbish!!!!!!


You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[Continental-520]

404 Titan,

Sounds fair. Point taken. Starting to wonder why this method isn't instilled in flight schools from day one, though. Well, at least the one I went to.

Islander Jock, yep, I'll PM ya later on.

Greetings, Dawn Raid. Things are good. Yes I am. Heading south for a few days later in the month though.


520.

[Ross Joy]

The NTSB accident/incident database for 300 accidents thave sited 44 accidents directly related to the CHECKLIST.
5% in pre-flight, 16% before start, 20% before takeoff, 5% in cruise, 52% BEFORE LANDING and 2% after landing.

After 30+ years of professional flying one of the most difficult things to do is use the Checklist properly, especially in a time of high stress or work load, the first thing to go out the window is the checklist.

NASA and the FAA have both produced volumes on checklists and human behavior in using them.


Safe Flying

[hoss]

"Scan Flows", I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet :confused: . These days its the way to go, done correctly and followed up with the checklist(flip,card,whatever) makes for a pretty slick operation. I would recommend to pilots early on in their training to start doing this and get away from those 'shopping trolley' Read and Do Checklists :ok:

Safe flying, hoss :)

[currawong]

My my, how things must have changed.

When I soloed it was "checklist to be word perfect or no solo for you"

Logic - One hand full of stick, the other full of throttle, better remember everything and be good at mental calculation as well.

So, many hours learning checklist and sitting in cockpit after hours memorizing controls/switches etc.

That was the military philosophy.

Ag is much the same.

Many operators do their checks/runups on the taxi. If you are single pilot and need a checklist you might bump into something.

Low level/single engine reaching for a checklist is probably not the way to solve a problem.

40,000 ft/multi engine/multi crew reaching for a checklist probably is the way to solve a problem.

But, if you need to have a read to remember "dead foot - dead engine" or similar it will probably be all over before you can find the right page, if you catch my drift.

Got to have them. Not for everybody, everywhere or all the time though.

[404 Titan]

hoss

Agree 100%.

Have a look at my post on the 3rd October. I have said basically the same thing. The sooner flying schools stop teaching the use of checklists as “To Do Lists” the better. All checks should be done from memory, i.e. flows, and then backed up with a checklist. This is the only way it is done in the airlines and the only way it has been done at all the places I have worked since learning to fly in the mid 80’s.

:)

[Poto]

Big Fan of the Flip flop type stuck on the dash for single pilot IFR
Head always up and on the 'Job':ok:
For Multi crew 'no shopping lists' please
Challenge and Response!:p

[druglord]

dittos what hoss said. Flows and scans...yeah I dont' know of anybody teaching this in flight schools, of course it's been a while since I've been.
Hey I couldn't open your pm hoss, don't know what happened there. I'll probably be in groundschool anyway. Just got a new job, should be on the RJ. Talk soon

[Continental-520]

Yep,

Since this thread has been running I've 'tried on' a few of the suggested methods here, which make sense.

Still using the list clipped to the sunshade (to help prevent taxiing into things), but rather as a reference instead of a to do list. :ok: ... 404 Titan.

By gosh, I wonder sometimes how some checklists make the Ops Manual, cause I'm looking at one now that overlooks some pretty critical stuff.


520.

P.S. Islander Jock, as it turns out, we're not talking about the same person in regards to the comment in reference.

[Hudson]

Funniest thing I ever saw was the damage to a wing of a C402 or similar type which was caused by the pilot when taxying out at night in rain was using a company checklist of the scroll down type. It had so many superflous items on it including the very first checklist item which read. "Gooday" The final checklist 120 items later was "See You Later". Loved it. Very professional airline style.

Unfortunately the pilot was so engrossed in winding the scroll checklist that he failed to look outside and see a parked aircraft which he clobbered with his wing tip.

I also once saw a Cessna 150 checklist which a PPL was using which had PPUFF on it. That was for final approach, apparently and it stood for Pitch, (it was fixed) Power Poles, Undercarriage (it was fixed!) and Feathered Friends. Checklists written by some flying schools can cause lots of laughs at times, but they shouldn't be taken seriously. Most GA checklists are simply crutches for the lazy flyer.