DH Trident question?

[Roc]

Just read an interesting article about the Trident. I think its a real classic! As a 727 pilot, I'm interested about the controversy surrounding the alleged copying of the trident design by Boeing. Also any comments concerning why the Trident didn't do well commercially, how it was to fly etc....

[exeng]

Apparently it was designed as a 727 size A/C but B.E.A. (British European Aiways) decided it was too big and insisted it was re-designed to their specifications. The result was non too successfull, great at coming down but required the curvature of the earth to get airborne and had a poor range.

Many of the folk I have flown with still shed a tear at the mention of the word 'Trident', it was B.E.A. you see.


Regards
Exeng

[411A]

Can remember 6 days straight in November 1975
when nothing (well almost) in the A.M. operated at LHR except Trident. Superb autopilot. Ah....Smiths. Had one on the F.27 years ago, never failed.

[twistedenginestarter]

It's a bit like why did the Tristar not do as well as the DC10.

I think one downer for the Trident was a lack of an engine of the right size at the right time.

[daft fader]

The Trident 3 struck me as being a classic example of bodging things. When they needed more power for it and failing suitable engines they stuck a vertical lift engine (mounted on its side) into the tail above the centre engine for assisting take off. Many times in a tower somewhere I offered immediate take off only to be told that they needed to light up number 4.

[GotTheTshirt]

As has been said the Trident was a good aircraft screwd up by BEA. In those days BEA and BOAC WERE the UK aircraft design authority.
Everything was related to their airport/ field/ passenger requirements and they were great on standardisation. In fact everything was supposed to be the same.
A very good example of this is when they later took BAC 1-11 ( fortunately designed without their help) they wanted the APU changed from Garrett, (average 3,500 hrs between all removals at that time) to Turbomeca(less than 1,000 hr BTR) because thats what they had on Trident !
The Vanguard and Ambassador are a couple of other names to conjure with.
The Trident nose gear retracted sidways so it was off center. We used to tell our 727 friends that the reason for this was the Autopilot was so accurate it was to prevent passenger discomfort from the nosewheel running over all the centerline lights !

[virgo]

In 1975, the Trident fleet had more successful auto-lands under their belts than the rest of the world put together. A world leader in cat 3 auto-land operation.

[wrecker]

Flew the Trident ( all models for about 18 years 10000 hours) A great pilots a/c only trouble with the Trident1c was it started of very under powered with Spey 505-510 of about 9850 lbs thrust eventually upgraded to 505-5f about 12000 lbs thrust It came down very well with reverse on the out board engines full speed brake and speed at MMO/VMO which initially was .88/385 15000fpm down could be achieved. Max range for a T1 was LHR-FCO and for a T2 TLV-LHR T3 was LHR-ATH. Great fun to fly but the bean counters hated it.

[exeng]

Hi Wrecker,

Did we by chance have a few units together at the 'Tipsy Toad' about 4 - 5 years ago? Just wondering...


Regards
Exeng

[Roc]

It seems the achilles heel of the Trident was the underpowered engines coupled with the smaller capacity vis a vis the 727. Was there any thought to slapping on some JT8D's ? I seem to remember that Douglas tried to co-sell the Caravelle, before they built the DC-9 and it had the Pratts. While completely understandable that DH would chose a RR engine, was any consideration given to different engines? The auto-pilot sounds great, I fly a 727-100 and it has the original auto-pilot in it, its more work to watch the auto-pilot, making sure it doesn't screw up, than if I hand fly it myself!!!

[Trident Sim]

May I please ask that those of you who were associated with the Trident spare a moment to take a look at my posting TRIDENT FLIGHT MANUALS in the QUESTIONS forum, asking for any old Trident manuals that you may care to donate?

wrecker

Come on now, up in the loft with you, and let's see what you've got that's dark green and dusty! :)

PS. For full marks, you have to have flown the HS121-1E with a real Flight Engineer! :) :)

Thanks in advance,

Trident Sim

[wrecker]

Exeng.... In Answer to your question could be!

Yes I did fly the DH 121-1E with a proper FE
the letters BKS come to mind.

Also did some deliveries to China, Pakistan and Kuwait for HS on a cash basis.

Trident Sim will have a look through the loft for any old manuals

[exeng]

Wrecker,

I was thinking more recently than BKS, like on a mainline 737 LHR - JSY? The 'Tipsy Toad' being a favorite watering hole on the island.


Regards
Exeng

[idlewild]

I believe that another problem with the Trident was its very poor field performance - hence its nickname "Gripper".

From what I understand this is due to a combonation of underpower engines and its high crz speed aerofoil.

Also, is it true that the six abreast seating in the Trident featured seat 'b' and 'e' facing aft???

[Seloco]

Idlewild,
My recollection was that the Trident originally had rows 1 and 3 facing backwards, with a fixed table in between, rather like a train. Since the climb angle was so gentle it wasn't too uncomfortable facing backwards, unlike a 757 out of Orange County I experienced a few years' back, but that's another story.
A further interesting feature of the Trident was that for a (short) while BEA operated it in seven abreast configuration (3+4). The marketing literature at the time proclaimed that the row of four was "particularly popular with families", whilst failing to point out that this popularity was limited to families of extreme ectomorphs that could fit into a seat little more than a foot wide.....
On the other hand, the early Smiths Autoland and the 600mph cruise were pretty awesome!

[Deeko01]

Are their any Tridents around these days, I look at the fire aircaft based at Glasgow and I think it is such a shame the state it is in now and if I had the money I would love to restore and fly it but as it's last flight was in February 6 1982 as Shuttle 6E I think that it is probably a bit too lat

[Blacksheep]

That "Trident" autoland system started life in the Shorts Belfast CMk.1. Some of the Belfasts are still flying. (Lord knows how?) Do they still have the autoland?

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[daft fader]

Does anybody know if the Cyprus airways Trident is still where it was marooned when the Turks invaded in the 1970s?

[DCDriver]

Are you referring to T2 'FB? I have a photo of it at LHR in '77 after a ferry back from Cyprus, which I believe was unpressurised due to bullet holes!

[GotTheTshirt]

Deecko01

There is a flyable Trident outside the BA hanger at LHR.

[Hew Jampton]

"There is a flyable Trident outside the BA hanger(sic) at LHR."

Not unless they put back the outer wing sections!


[This message has been edited by Hew Jampton (edited 27 January 2001).]

[Speedbird48]

The De-Havilland ( Ah De-Havilland!) DH-121 was originally designed as a large airplane and would have been powered with Rolls-Royce Medway engines. The "experts" at BEA said it was too large and the ground gripper was born. So after three tries they arrived at the final model which was almost the same size as the original DH design. In the meantime the Medway engines were not produced so it had no suitable engines which led to the fitting of the plastic boost engine.
Another good design screwed up by the BEA/BOAC "experts"! The latest VC_10 book shows what could have been without the "experts" and politicians!!
The Ambassador was another one, a beautiful airplane that also flew very well but it had a very small fuel capacity. The BEA "experts" only wanted it to go to Paris so it got very little fuel tankage.

[twistedenginestarter]

I think it's a bit facile to say the plane was the wrong size. Planes can be any size. The Embraer sells. So does the A380.

The question is why did the BAC 111 and Trident not succeed whilst the 727 and 737 did.

I suspect this was more to do with politics and national jealousies than merits of the planes themselves.

Just to correct this impression that the Trident was a dog - I remember it going up like a rocket on occasions.

[GotTheTshirt]

Hew
Is that Trident a BA a dead duck ??

The last I heard (Yonks back!)was that they were going to get if flying ???

[Hew Jampton]

GotTheTshirt, the outer wing sections have been sawn off and the airframe has been used for towing/deicing training. I understand it is actually privately owned but lent to BA for said training. Although it is mostly all there (wings excepted), it hasn't been mothballed or maintained, so would be difficult, but not impossible I suppose, to fly it. The last time I looked at it the tyres were flat. Imagine the noise complaints if it flew!

[Roc]

Twistedenginestarter,

I'll disagree with your theory about national jealousy's, American, Braniff, and Mohawk flew 1-11's United flew Caravelles as well. I've seen comparisons between the DC-9 and 1-11's and Caravelle's and the operating economics were much better in the DC-9's case. Obviously having the opportunity to assess the competition was to the US builders advantage. The problem I see was that the English designs were tailored to the narrow specs of BEA BA etc and they suffered for it in the marketplace. So what was the cause of the VC-10's limited sales sucess, since Vickers could out-design the 707 and DC-8 with a newer, better design. I know she is a beautiful jet, saw many RAF models during the Gulf War.

[BEagle]

Roc- basically in the short term the operating costs of the '10 were higher than the 707 or DC8; BOAC/BA were obliged to buy them due to nationalistic jingoism rather than on pur economic grounds. But in the long term it needed less maintenance, being built like a brick $hithouse, and could have worked out cheaper overall! A proposed Super Super VC10 was still-born as the 747 came in with its superior seat-mile economics.

Glad that you like our dear old jet; still one of the prettiest shapes in the sky. But VERY NOISY, I'm afraid!!

[Roc]

I have a question, Often I hear pilots saying the plane was built like a Brick Sh#@house. I understand the sentiment, but on what criteria are we basing this on? For ex, My airline flies alot of 727-100's built in the mid 60's thay never break!! and seem to be rugged, however we also fly DC-8's and they are said to have "No airframe time Limits" because Douglas had overbuilt them. The DC-8's are indeed built like tanks!! But what jets weren't? Is it just perceptions or are their hard facts to prove these claims? just a fun subject to talk about.

[twistedenginestarter]

If it's British, it's built like a tank. Any other nationality - not so. Mind you probably they say the same about us.

Jetstream - there's a plane you could stick a turret on the front and take on the Iraqi's.

[411A]

Speaking of the JetStream, over 50 of them are parked at KIGM and Airline Services are starting to b/u many. Its day is long past, i'm afraid.