Jeppesen docs are a safety hazard!!

[TopperHarley]

Im about to have a rant - would appriecate others thoughts......

Twelve months ago, I joined a company that required me to start using Jepps as opposed to ASA daps.

I initially didnt really like them but decided to give them some time to grow on me.

Twelve months down the track, I have serious safety concerns about their use. Despite what I think of them , they are the standard and I have to use them.

1. The airport directory is crap and quite often omitts important data that is included in ERSA (re CCT ops etc.)

2. Having a different schedule for updates means I could be well flying with different IAL info to the bloke using DAPS.

3. Their reluctance to update their enr CHARTS in synch with AirServices is a joke. I would love to say that I have made every pen ammendment as per the "chart notams", I have a quick look but I know a LARGE MAJORITY of people that dont even look at them.

4. Is there any legislation that dictates the type of docs that must be used in flight (I know Jepps are allowed in exams) ?? What would an FOI say if I just used my own hand drawn app. charts ??

I have found Jeppesen in Australia to be most accomodating with any problems Ive had and I am definately not having a go at them. Its more the system or the 'norm' that im having a go at.

Am I being unreasonable in my critisism ?? Is there an answer ??

[Capt Claret]

As I understand things, Jeppesen are supplied with the raw data for the Aust AIP and DAPs and then produce that information in their own format.

Because they use their format, much information is placed in a different location. For example right hand circuits will often be noted on the Aerodrome Chart, whereas if memory serves me, in AIP/DAP the same info is in the ERSA.

I've used Jepps for about 7 years now. I've found the odd mistake or two in that time and always found Darren Mattingley at Jepps in Melbourne, to be most helpful in passing on errors to the masters in the US. Additionally given that Jepp amendments are issued fortnightly one doesn't end up with pages and pages of manuscript ammendments after each quarterly amendment as happens often with the AIP/DAP.

I don't think there is an answer to your question, mostly it's a case of coming to terms with the different presentation and then learning where to find the info you want.

:ok:

[halas]

Have to agree that when l started to use them 9 years ago, l found them a little bewildering, and having to learn to be an 'icon recognition guru'.

When you start to fly international routes, and unless your company create their own navigation documents, you will be using Jepp's, so get used to it.

Your right about chart notams, and if any international crew went through all the chart notams sign on would be three hours earlier.
With the mob l'm with it's up to navigation department to point out any relevent changes to your flight by using a company notam issued in the briefing package prior to flight.

Now l know that doesn't help the smaller operator, but may l suggest that when the ammendments arrive, have a glance through which ones affect your ops and discount the rest unless you work outside the norm and have to all of them :yuk:

Good luck

halas

[PGH]

I have to agree. The Jep update cycle seems to me to be the worst case of overservicing ever. I might accept that the change processes are less controlled in other regions, however in Australia there is no need for Jep to update more frequently than for the AIP/DAP. If the number of NOTAM issued against the Jep plates is greater than the official plates; then yes; you're entitled to ask - are they safe. And even who approved then & why have they've been approved for use (continue to be approved for use)?

[dogcharlietree]

Having used Jepps ever since they were introduced into Oz (around 1990), I believe they are a far superior product.
As a previous poster said, most (if not all) of the info is there. It's just in a different place or section.
Also, again, when you start international flying, or flying in another country, you will already be familiar with the charts.
Just remember, we are reluctant to change, but sometimes it is for the better. Give it another go.
They are the industry standard around the world!
I concur, the guys at Jepps Oz (Geoff and Darren) are extremely helpful.

[bateman]

If you fly international, you will find the consistency of Jepps to be the main advantage. Although I will admit that the DAPs are superior in a number of aspects.

Your point about the ERSA is noted, but the ERSA is primarily a VFR document. Whereas the Jepps is primarily for IFR.

You should take a look at the crap UK documents the pomms produce (called Aerads). Then you will be begging for Jepps.

[Fred Gassit]

I have known the Jepp ERC to omit a few PRD areas and more seriously a few years ago have the wrong MBZ frequency printed for a particular destination which resulted in an RPT a/c and another aircraft being unaware of each other whilst in the same circuit

[CaptainMidnight]

Unfortunately they regularly make blunders, and can take a while to fix. Whether they are better or worse on that score than the local product is open to debate. Personally I prefer my $$$ to stay local where possible.

They missed an update to the ARBEY STAR that came into effect on 2 OCT. Their plates (and probably FMS data) still have ARBEY NINE, whereas it is now ARBEY ONE as a result of a new transition and other changes. The transition won't be assigned because the Jeppesen users may or may not have the correct data.

[duke of duchess]

with the change to the arbey arrival in ML i think it was a department stuff up more so than jepps, the ATC guys said they hadn't got the new arrival info till late afternoon on the day that it was suppose to come into effect, so the controllers were running for most of the day without the new star.

Maybe the department forgot to send the info to jepps until the afternoon of the 2nd also????

jepps are good, once you get use to them, all products have the occasional problem, but with the 2 week ammendment cycle you don't have to worry about alot of notams as if they affect a charts for an airport they are incorperated in the next ammendment, no more scribbled freq, notes on plates for the next 6 months waiting for the next airservices amend.

stop complaining about everything and start enjoying life, why do so many pilots look at the negative in everything, we have a very easy job, giving us heaps of benifits, start enjoying life or you will waste it complaining.

duke:ok: :ok:

[apache]

Personally, I find Jepps to be better than the AsA doc's. I MUCH prefer the two week amendment cycle as opposed to having to sit down for hours on end and amend the DAP's.

I also agree that the guys(and gals) at JEPPS Aust are very helpful.

I also , personally, prefer the layout of things such as DME/GPS arrivals. I LIKE having ALL my charts in one book... especially when you are flying on the boundary of DAPS EAST and DAPS WEST!

I HATED having to lift the cover on the DAPS documents inflight, as they are a REALLY REALLY bad way to have a folder, in my opinion.

Let's face it.... NEW or AMENDED procedures normally come out at the same time. IF for some reason you DON'T have the new procedure, then what is the harm in doing an OLDER procedure which, for years was considered safe? ( UNLESS of course they have built a building, erected a crane,etc etc in the way[which is probably notam'd anyway!])

I don't know if it's true, but apparently JEPPS will offer you a year free if you can pick them up on a mistake (NOT typo's) that is in a chart of theirs. once again, unsubstantiated.

Let's face it... multi crew op's: you MUSt have the same doc's as the other chap/chapette, it reduces confusion. Of course, there is no harm in having BOTH I suppose except to the hip pocket!

My vote goes to JEPPS :ok:

[sedgie]

Here is a mistake, Jepp chart 18-1 Sabai island QLD.
The chart has the 974 foot tower on the wrong side of the aerodrome.

[Jimmy Neutron]

Jepps are without a doubt a safety hazard. Just ask Brisbane Airport security who almost every day insist I empty my Nav bag and remove my Jepps so they can inspect them and send them through the x-ray machine again. :D

[o1genesis]

I like Jepps but I wish they would publish airport elevations in their airport directory. It would make a big difference in my operation.