Qantas admits Arab 'terror' blunder

[Wirraway]

News.com

Qantas admits Arab 'terror' blunder
September 29, 2003

QANTAS admitted Monday that its cabin staff delayed a flight because they thought four Arabs travelling as guests of Australia's national air force might be terrorists.

Flight attendants on a domestic flight from Sydney to Perth raised the alarm after seeing three of the men sit in business class and a fourth in economy, an airline spokeswoman said.

Four flight attendants were concerned the passengers might be a security threat, and refused to allow the aircraft to take off. The airline was forced to replace the cabin crew and the plane left 69 minutes late.

Airline chief executive Geoff Dixon was furious and wanted the attendants dismissed, the Australian Financial Review reported. However, the Qantas spokeswoman said they still had their jobs.

The four men were from the United Arab Emirates. They apparently attracted suspicion because of their looks and the fact they were speaking a foreign language. The incident occurred earlier this month.

A Department of Defence spokeswoman said the four men were air force personnel who were in Australia to discuss air force to air force cooperation. They were travelling with an Australian military official at the time.

"They were here on an official visit at the invitation of the chief of the air force," the spokeswoman said.

Agence France-Presse

============================================

[leemo]

I would have been suspicious also. QF should have informed the crew beforehand they were air force personnel and this misunderstanding would not have happened.

[squire]

Quite bloody right Qantarse everyone speaking anything but english should be made to walk! Except for the Irish they maybe IRA (and its no really english is it).:}

[halas]

Probabaly trying to see what all the fuss was with the comparison between Qantas and Emirates.

At least Emirates don't worry too much about carrying Ozmates.

halas

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Considering the standard of service on Qantas and what the UAE boys would have been used to flying Emirates, maybe they would have been happy to have been offloaded :E

[Cactus Jack]

I understand that the guys were wearing inappropriate shirts which made reference to "pilot training" and "jihad". Apparently there were communications "problems".

Everyone makes their own decision, but in this case the FA's decided to walk. No mention has been made of the replacement crew, or the Tech crew. Wonder what happened there?

[Angle of Attack]

I don't know anything about the incident so I am not making any presumptions but this is at least partly caused by the ridiculous media coverage of terrorism and all the beat-up associated with it. Because of their way in reporting and sensationalism the average westerner is starting to associate any arabs with terrorists or the like. Unfortunately thats what you get with a completely biased media here in Australia especially commercial networks, its a brainwashing of its citizens subvertly. This is just my general opinion, its not speciafically at this incident, although these sorts of things are a result.

[halas]

Maybe the security training that QF flight attendants receive is inappropriate?

Wonder what the skipper had to say about it at the time?

Tshirts that made reference to "Pilot taining AND jihad"?Where do you get them? :confused:

halas

[Deaf]

Where do you get the Tshirts?

Is it too cynical to suggest RAAF?,USAF?,RAF?

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

AoA Spot on:ok:

The state of the western world at the beginning of the millenium "Hypnotised & Hysterical"

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

It does my heart good to hear that this is the sort of quality opposition EK faces in the Oz market.

"They apparently attracted suspicion because of their looks and the fact they were speaking a foreign language."

Fancy that on an international airline! Geez what will we see next. Soon there will be Vietnemese food in Cabramatta and Italians dining out on pasta in Lygon street. It wont be long and the F/A union will be asking George W for a couple of tactical strikes to put all these suspicious foreigners in their place.

I hope they get the same treatment here, should QF ever gather the courage to compete with us over the same routes!

Oh and by the way, it sounds a little bit suspicious that these guys would be wearing evocative motifs on their T-shirts if they were travelling on Military business and accompanied by an Oz airforce official.

If GD can't, or wont, discipline these F/A's then it is a sad indication of where QF is headed.

Cop U Later

The Rev

[marlin]

Well,stereotyping individuals with looks and appearances seems to be the order of the day these 'terrorised' days just like u can spot an OZ dancing barefooted in a London upmarket club

[halas]

It's good though that the QF flight attendant group are privy to identifying any member associated with the (In a forboding voice) "Axis of Evil" !!!!

These sus blokes had obviously sampled QF service before, and maybe the flight attendants didn't get it, as these punters were deliberately hamming it up by being foreign and speaking funny:}

halas

[Nose Wheel]

"Crew Replaced for refusing to fly Arabs"

Sydney (Reuters) Australian airline Qantas replaced four crew who refused to fly because they were suspicious of four Arab passengers who turned out to be VIP guests of the country's air force.
Qantas airways has admitted the incident - which media said enraged chief executive Geoff Dixon - but only said the crew was now being "counselled". Dixon has not commented on the incident publicly.
The goof up happened early this month when four Gulf Citizens boarded a flight from Sydney to Perth - three in business class and one in economy.
"They were in Australia on an official visit at the invitation of chief of the air force," a spokeswoman for the Australian defence department said. Despite being accompanied by a Royal Australian Air Force officer, the delegation alarmed the four crew members.
The plane finally departed more than an hour behind schedule after a new crew was called up, an Australian newspaper said.

[Mainframe]

Given that every successful act of terrorism seems to have been committed by a male or males of middle eastern appearance and in the 30 to 40 yr age group, going back as far as PanAm , Lockerbie, and that airport security targets little old ladies and any one not of male, 30/40 yr middle eastern appearance, I don't see any problem with the F/A's being concerned with having a group of them on their flight.

Wasn't this the scenario on Sept 11 ?

Personally, I would have had serious concerns and would have eliminated my personal risk factor by opting out of that flight for a later one.

In this life we all make our own calls, and I have no problem with that of the crew on this flight.

perhaps the gentlemen concerned may have been a bit more sensitive to the image and fears that their neighbours have engendered over the years.

I'm quite sure that El Al management may have been more supportive of the intuition of their cabin staff.

Perhaps the gentlemen may have dressed as Air Force officers instead of emulating the classic terrorist profile and avoided the concern they caused.

I'm not from Sydney or Melbourne, just live in an Anglo Saxon part of Australia, and perhaps that influences me a little as well.

[Deaf]

The public knowlwdge of this incident is:

4 pax, 3 business, 1 ecomony of the dreadedME appearance
They know one another
Tshirts with nasty things on them

Good reason for questions which shows initially

They are accompaned by a RAAF Officer

Next it is established, (and assume very quickly) who they are and who paid for the tickets

But the trolly dollys know best and behave as normally thinkings that the real checks don't mean anything. and they can be even more offensive

[steamchicken]

Baltic Exchange...
Canary Wharf...
Warrington...
Omagh...
Sundry incidents in the Basque country..

Yeah, loads of Arabs involved in those....

[Wizofoz]

And don't forget that very "Arabic" Timothy McVey!!

[Bubbette]

Sounds like the Qantas mistake was in not backing up the pilot.

[max AB]

Mainframe are you serious? Sure we make our own calls in life, and the crew did just that. They decided that being cabin crew for a national carrier was not for them.. Qantas advertises all around the world for people to visit Oz and fly on their crap airline. It is not good enough for crew to then decide not to fly with them. Be security aware indeed, voice your concerns, have the checks done then get on with it. I they can't handle that then open a coffee shop in Paddo.

[Capt Claret]

and let's not forget the Arab members of the IRA, BAder Meinhoff and JI, just to name a few other exceptions. :yuk: :yuk:

[Wizofoz]

Errr, I think Steamchicken kind of did CC!

[max AB]

Or how about Tim Anderson...or did he get aquitted?

[Gnadenburg]

I agree that, once again, highly strung emotion has come to play in the decision making process of some F/A's. Would be foolish to underestimate the possibility of emotion and intuition in reports to the Flight Deck coming from the Cabin. Have seen it myself on occassion and a good lesson.

Crew Resource Management may have given CabinCrew a bit too much power in walking off flights-have seen it myself-despite reassurances from from operating pilots.

CRM a powerful tool but maybe the Cabin Crew need some cold and hard lessons in decision making, and the responsibility and accountability that comes with it, before flippantly taking their emotional feelings as professionalism, under the guise and protection of CRM.

And in a very Australian way some of the above have dismissed the threat we are possibly engaged with. Don't think for one minute that money from a oil rich and spiritual homeland,doesn't finds it's way to the places of worship on the sub-continent and then onto similar right on our doorstep. And to hundreds of millions of these devout people Australia is at war with them. Or so is the poisoned words coming from some of their places of worship. And slowly they are learning to fight the West.

.

[halas]

Whats the "sub-continent" got to do with Australia?

halas

[Sheep Guts]

QANTAS admitted Monday that its cabin staff delayed a flight because they thought four Arabs travelling as guests of Australia's national air force might be terrorists.


Australias national airforce? Is this another body I havent heard of? Bloody Journos need to go back to school. Or they are very carefully sidesteping me thinks....


Regards
Sheep

[Roller Merlin]

To clarify the facts:

Members in question were wearing caps that were Australian gifts, with non-offensive flying related motif imprinted only.

[max AB]

Must have been Trash Hauler caps..in that case the crew were right!

[Eddington the Rodger]

Any Arabian person flying on an airline in this day and age, regardless of how they are dressed should be ready to be questioned and scrutinised.........paranoia by the airlines? yes ,perhaps, but Arab nationals only have themselves to blame .

[Bigkev]

What Mainframe says makes absolute sense.

It seems people are having a go at the crew for playing it safe!
I would venture to say people might have felt differently about it if they were passengers on the plane!

A lot of people are scared to say this so I will:
Yes, there is quite a bit of non-arab terrorism in the world. But the fact is:

The VAST majority of modern day terrorists are arabs.

(Note: I did not say all arabs, as most are decent people like you and me)

Steamchicken mentions terrorism such as:
Baltic Exchange...
Canary Wharf...
Warrington...
Omagh...
Sundry incidents in the Basque country..

but fails to mention the THOUSANDS of israelis (including arabs) killed every year, week after week by palestinians, not to mention, the thousands killed in Sept 11,(also including many arabs) or the hundreds of christians killed every year in Pakistan by arab terrorist attacks. (Also don't forget the various other airline terroist attacks by arabs)

What is so "disgraceful" of being suspicious of these men because of their ethnicity? If the situation was reversed and Australians were known as terrorists, I may be annoyed by it, but would understand people being suspicious of me, if I flew on a foreign airline.

[The Enema Bandit]

Reminds me how the IRA sent their best female assassin to go and kill Osama Bin Laden except she got her anthrax mixed up with her tampax and killed the wrong ---t..... Doh! OOPS!

[max AB]

Big Kev Nothing is disgraceful about being suspicious of passengers, infact it is good security. What is disgraceful is the crew then refusing to fly...You have a concern you voice it, you are at the gate so you have the bonafides checked. Are... travelling in a group.... booked by the Government of Australia...OK, these guys are clean now get on with your job and thanks for the concern. If this sort of procedure or similar was followed and they still refused to fly then that is disgraceful. If QF don't have a procedure to follow in cases such as these then they are way behind in not just service.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

You say the Palestinians commit terrorist acts on the Israelis?? Yeh they have a few kids with bombs strapped to their bodies on buses. Thats terrorism I agree, but so is a gunship firing missiles into a crowded marketplace and killing countless innocent civilians along with the one hamas leader they were after.

When the non-Western countries fight against oppression its terrorism, when the Western countries bomb Arab citys and invade their borders, its liberation.

As the guys earlier said, if the crew is jumpy due to the stereotypes imprinted on them due to the western media, then sure make all the usual checks, but once they are done, stop being drama queens and do your job of giving food poisoning to your passengers.

[one ball]

Re the "national air force" line, it was written by the frogs who probably have no idea what the RAAF is really known as.:rolleyes:

[Gnadenburg]

Halas

"What has the sub-continent have to do with Australia?"

The sub-continent contains around seven nations. The most problematic Pakistan.

Pakistan has been the logistical and spiritual home for some unsavoury fundamentalist groups. The war in Afganistan was won by tribesman pitted against the former Soviet war machine; no thanks political and religious backing in Pakistan. And a warm round of applause to the CIA and their provision of Stinger missiles.

The Taliban in Afganistan was pretty much bankrolled by the Pakistan military junta but the lasting efffect may be the religious guise it was done under.

Halas, ask around discretely, on the inspiration and funding of some mosques (and the US) , many lost their lives in Afganistan in Jihad! Even from temperate MidEast nations such as the UAE. You can not turn that fervour off especially in light of contradictory Foreign Policy from the West.

Pakistan is not a rich country and a fair guess as to what is not available to the public in the recent Congress report on Sept 11! Oil money from the spiritual home of Islam bankrolled the Taliban and similar within Pakistan.

How does all this affect Australia? I would suggest it already has with Bali.

Much MidEast money makes it's way to Pakistan and onto groups such as Indonesia's JI.

That is the threat and that is on the doorstep.

Bob Hawke shed a tear for Israel in the 80s. We have recently been involved in an un-popular bombing campaign and "liberation" of Iraq. Not even Bob's emotions could align us as close to US policy on Israel as the position we are in today!

The price of this alignment has been paid by thousands of US victims of terrorism. It surprises me that in threads such as this, the flippant dismissal of what we are now involved in.

It surprises me even more, a budget surplus, a government hinting at tax cuts and not an investment in security.

[ApocalypseThen]

If all you flippant smart arse twenty- twenty hindsight arseholes had been highjacked as I have been , you might be a bit paranoid as well . It wasn’t your life on the line
in this incident , it was theirs , and they made the call . In aviation safety issues , the
most conservative judgement is supposed to prevail .

[SydGirl]

Damned if you do.. damned if you don't.

Had something suspicious have turned up about these men, the crew would have been labelled heroes.

The cabin crew on this occassion were astute without just cause. So Geoff wants them fired.

Safety First.... or is it?
SG
:)

[Capt Claret]

Quotes:
I understand that the guys were wearing inappropriate shirts which made reference to "pilot training" and "jihad". Apparently there were communications "problems".
Given that every successful act of terrorism seems to have been committed by a male or males of middle eastern appearance ....
Tshirts with nasty things on them
Apparently in addition to the shirts, they were also giving nasty looks to the crew, were seated throughout the cabin and after further investigation were booked under "House of Jihad" or something of that nature.


There doesn't seem to be one post on this thread from anyone who was there! How then can quotes such as those above be taken seriously? :rolleyes:

I find it almost incredulous to believe that an Australian Defence Force officer would allow his charges to travel in the alleged manner, given the hype of the past two years.

ANSA agree wholeheartedly. While both sides simply blame the other side there will be no resolution. It interesting how it seems the majority of the WASP/Anglo community simply side against the Arabs without looking at both sides.

ApocalypseThen if

the most conservative judgement is supposed to prevail

does this mean the Captain should decline to depart into turbulence and challenging weather when the conservative F/O says, "I don't think we should go skipper"?

[Gnadenburg]

Agree. Somebody must know.

What was written on their shirts/caps etc?

I find it hard to believe they were booked under "House of Jihad". Even if in the sometimes liberal expression and translation of Jihad ie: Muslim struggle and recognition. Not Holy War.

Claret

The Murdoch press would never let it's view on Israel be influenced by outside lobby groups and associated business pressure. Surely we get a balanced view in Australia of MidEast issues?

[Manwell]

Gentlemen,.... and Ladies,

The thing about the T-shirts and the other inflammatory remarks need to be recognised in the context of the person making the post.

I think we can accept as fact that "Cactus Jack" is a person who delights in spreading fertiliser and seeing what pops up. I'm actually surprised that the statement would have been given any credibility at all given the situation. Hardly likely that guests of the RAAF would be dressing in that manner. Really...

Please, don't lose your minds just because others around you are losing theirs. It's an obvious windup. And if anyone can verify that Cactus actually does fly an aircraft, then I'll be surprised.
But only if they can be verified too.

Gotta agree with a lot of the sentiments of posters expressing moderation though. Remember that we are at WAR!!!! Remember? The "WAR on TERROR"? A contradiction in terms if ever there was... And remember that the first casualty of war is the truth.

You know, propaganda, lies, spies, and all that mind screwing stuff.


Life's a Bitch, then you Fly. :ugh:

(Unfortunately, even flying is losing it's appeal with all this madness about terrorists gripping the gullible masses)

[Bigkev]

AirNoServicesAustralia, In reply to your comments

The difference between Israeli gunship attacks, and Palestinian suicide attacks is The Israelis don't target innocent people!

When you speak of "non-Western countries fight against oppression" if you are suggesting Israel "oppresses" the palestinian people please explain how?

Many Palestinians live in Israel, and are free to do as they please. They are not persecuted in any way, however, if an Israeli even tries to walk down a local street in the palestinian teritory, they are often violently murdered. School's in Israel promote racial tolerance, where as many schools in the Palestinian territory promote violence towards Israelis.

Further, when Jerusalem was under palestinian control, all Jews were forbidden to enter the Temple Mount / Dome of the Rock areas, where as under Israeli rule all religions are free to see all sights in the city.

Considering their military power, I often shudder to think what would happen if the Israelis hated the Palestinians as much as the Palestinians hate the Israelis. (and America, for that matter.)

Who's oppressing who?

[Gnadenburg]

Big Kev

Stern Gang?

Irgun?

USS Liberty?

Sabra and Chatila refugee camps?

Egyptian POWs and the Six Day War?

Assasination of Count Bernadotte?

Bombing of the King David hotel?

Israel was founded by terrorism no matter which side of the fence you sit. I don't hold a view one way or another, the situation is beyond comprehension. In fact, many of Israel's former ruling elite were active terrorists involved in killing British soldiers-aswell as brutal ethnic cleansing!

No answers and not pretending to understand or take sides.

[Ibol]

Hey Capt Claret,

If the weather is such my F/O says " I don't think we should go Skipper".

I am going to consider not departing!!

Or.... We could just ignore the little weed and scowl at him for being so 'conservative'.

Silly, silly F/O! Being so.......conservative!

Bad Analogy!

[max AB]

SydGirl, you're not dammed if you do,at least you shouldn't be. The important thing for crew is to speak up if they have doubts. Those doubts should then be acted apon by the Captain through QF security or whoever is incharge of the loading. When you get a reply that says every thing checks out then you have a duty to go, you are paid to go. You need to have confidence in the companies processes and checks that they have in place. If you don't have that confidence then why fly in their jets every day? If you still don't want to go then thats fine, its your choice, but expect a Don't Come Monday letter. Claret if you had quotes from people who were actually there then it wouldn't be a rumour network would it?

[SydGirl]

You're right max AB, doubt is positive. All crew should express when they have doubt, this is constantly addressed every time a crewmember attends CRM.

However, I've read these posts several times, and can't see anywhere that the crew still refused to fly even after they were informed these people checked out OK. All I have read is some comments by other PPruner's suggesting this may be the case. I've also read other tripe suggesting these men were wearing Jihad t-shirts and giving nasty looks to the crew! For goodness sakes, let's seperate fact from fiction here.

It is unfair for us to sit back and judge then condemn a crew when really we do not know all of the facts. Personally, I am proud of the crew for expressing their personal concern - this is exactly what CRM is about.

SG
:)

[Bigkev]

Hey Gnadenburg,

"Israel was founded by terrorism no matter which side of the fence you sit."

Incorrect.

Israel was founded because of a United Nations resolution in 1947, in wake of the 6 million Jews killed in WW2,
which recognised the rights of all people regardless of race to live in peace.

Land was bought from the Arabs. (A fact conveniently forgotten nowdays by many leftists)

Arabs were offered instant citizenship, with benefits such as:

The right to vote
The right to free speech
The right to run for political office
The right to run a business without having to pay protection money
The right to not have to join the military
Arab women having equal rights to Arab men
The right to marry whomever they want
The right to full economic, social, and civil liberty

All of which they could not do in any other middle eastern country.

The day after it it's foundation, it was attacked by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq.

And yes, there has been some Israeli terrorism, such as the Stern Gang, and they should be treated exactly the same way as any other terrorist. (In my opinion, eliminated)

P.S. sorry to turn this forum into a bit of a socio-political debate, I'd much rather talk about flying!

[Swingwing]

Here are the facts (I felt obliged, as so far we've got a four page thread without any):

1)Relatively high level military delegation from an Arab country which provided significant support to Australia during recent Gulf deployments.

2)Having visited an Australian flying school, one member of the delegation was wearing a baseball cap advertising same. Additionally, he was a very nervous flyer, and spoke little English. Compounding the problem, he was separated from the rest of his delegation, and the RAAF escort officer. Accordingly, the cabin crew were presented with a nervous, sweating Arab male, wearing a hat advertising a flying school. They made what seems like an understandable leap, and called security, who removed the gentleman from the aircraft.

3)So far, seems reasonable, I think you'd agree. It's what happened next that has caused the problems.

4)After some difficulties related to the language barrier, the Australian escort officer was found with the rest of the delegation and explained the situation to security. He then undertook to brief the Captain and cabin crew on who the individual was - ie an invited official guest of the Australian Government , and a military officer of an allied country.

5)At the completion of the brief, the skipper was satisfied, and decided to depart. At this point, four of the cabin crew indicated that they were still unprepared to fly with this individual on board, and a delay of nearly an hour ensued whilst replacement crew were found.

6)Significant diplomatic fallout has since ensued, which I can't go into here. Suffice to say that the delegation indicated on arrival at their destination that they were considering returning home, as they did not feel welcome in Australia. Representations at the highest level have been made, and (my reading only, I hasten to add), long term damage to our relations seems likely to have occurred.

I find it absolutely appalling that such a situation could be allowed to take place. Certainly, the original circumstances could well have given rise to anxiety on the part of the cabin crew. Indeed, they should probably be commended for their vigilance.
However, what I find mystifying is that once the situation had been explained at great length by an Australian military officer, some members of the crew still refused to get on with doing their jobs. This just reinforces the (no doubt unfair) stereotype of lazy self absorbed QANTAS cabin crew. After all, if the Captain and other senior members of the crew (eg the CSM) were now prepared to get on with it, what further reassurances were considered necessary to convince the others?

A bizarre situation, and a great disappointment to people like me who would like to be able to be proud of the national flag carrier...

Now you can all debate away in full possession of the facts.

SW

[Bubbette]

.Gnadenburg NOt sure how Israel got dragged into this, but you're wrong here:

Stern Gang? Not part of Israeli army

Irgun? Ditto

USS Liberty? An accident.

Sabra and Chatila refugee camps? Murders committed by Christians against Muslims.

Egyptian POWs and the Six Day War? Um does the Damascus chair mean anything to you? Trust me, it wasn't used on the Egyptians, and their treatment far exceeded int'l standards

Assasination of Count Bernadotte?

Bombing of the King David hotel? A military target, and all were warned to vacate the building.

Israel was founded by terrorism no matter which side of the fence you sit. I don't hold a view one way or another, the situation is beyond comprehension. In fact, many of Israel's former ruling elite were active terrorists involved in killing British soldiers-aswell as brutal ethnic cleansing!No answers and not pretending to understand or take sides.

You ARE taking sides, as evidence by your complete omission of the facts.

[Xplicit]

There are too many 'do-gooder' Aussies out there. These rag heads are going to use this all against you.
Good on the hosties for thinking that something was up. Imagine the papers the next day if something HAD happened... "Hosties critisised over not taking action when they thought something was up" And if they survived whatever the terrorists where going to do, What then? They would never hear the end of it. Nope, good on them!!![!!

[max AB]

Swingwing thanks for the facts, and I agree totally with your point, they should have got on with it. The fact is who they were was determined and no threat existed. There was no if Xplicit they were guests of our country, guests who provided support for our military. What a lovely payback given them by the QF crew.

As for the politics of who does what to whom, start another thread boys, try www.politicalbarrowpushers.com

[Capt Claret]

hopefully you'll be one of the rag heads first targets! :mad: :yuk:

To pinch a line from a neighbour of mine, were you born a :mad:wit or did you just pay a lot of money to become one?

--------------------------------
Claret - do-gooder and father of two rag heads

[Gnadenburg]

SwingWing

Thanks for that info.

May be time to reign in the CRM for Cabin Crew-or perhaps remind them of where they are in the decision making process.

The crew in this case made a call and will now have to account for their decision. The seriousness of the embarrassment to Australia and Qantas should be sobering.

The crew is on the world stage and I hope their decision making process, to walk off the flight, a little more evolved than I didn't like the look of them. Or did they just want to go home?

Big Kev & Bubbette

In 1947 Australia did not know which way to vote on the original UN partition plan. The issues confusing and possibly not even solvable. And Bubbette, like Australia then, not taking sides now.

So....

Stern Gang & Irun-integrated into the IDF post 48! Big Kev former Prime Ministers Begin and Shamir were members of this group you, by your own admission, label as guilty of terrorist ops.

USS Liberty-benefit of the doubt but a few years later IDF Air Defence units were monitored as ordering the shootdown of U2s collecting intelligence along the Sinia.

The slaughter in Lebanon(Sabra & Catila)-OK the Germans overseeing Jewish camps in the Ukraine during WW2 weren't responsible for the actions of foreign camp guards?

The execution on mass of Egyptian officers-it didn't happen Bubbette? Like the Holocaust? And for your info what the hell is the Damascus Chair? I assume you mean the German Chair used in Damascus.

The bombing of the King David Hotel-justifying terrorism are we Bubbette? How would the families of the recent tragedy in Haifa feel if your flippant "military target" sentiments applied to that incident in 20 years or so, by the Arab terrorists?

Count Bernadotte -a UN representitive with a vision of Jerusalem for all, not just an Israeli capital, and was assasinated by either Stern or Irgun.

The populaton of Palestine was about 700,000 in 1922 Big Kev. Most were Arab and a small part-83,000- Jewish. The exodus from Europe to Palestine began in this period-100,000. Countering your suggestion that the Holocaust was the justifiable reason for the mass immigration of European jews to Palestine.

The region a distasteful mess. Not taking sides and my only reservation being Australia has no reason to align itself closely to American-Israeli foreign policy and paying the price that brings.

And to suggest Israel a beacon of Western good manners in the MidEast fanciful.

[Bubbette]

Gnadenburg --what are you talking about? Israel is a democracy; Arabs have their only free elections in the whole mid-east and there is due process for all. What exactly is not Western about this?
And yes G:
there was no slaughter of Egyptians
King David hotel: A military HQ, where they were warned to leave.
Sabra and Shatilla--can't fathom Arabs murdering Arabs? Why not?

The Jews built up the land--the Arabs then moved there.* The land has always been historically Jewish---not Arab.

You ought to stop getting your history from revisionists Gnad.

*It is not surprising then that the British census data produce an Arab Palestinian population growth for 1922-31 that turns out to be generated by natural increase and legal migrations alone. Applying a 2.5 per annum growth rate[30] to a population stock of 589,177 for 1922 generates a 1931 population estimate of 735,799 or 97.6 percent of the 753,822 recorded in the 1931 census. Does the imputation model then "prove" that illegal immigration into Palestine was inconsequential during 1922-31? Not at all. A footnote accompanying the census's population time series acknowledges the presence in Palestine of illegal Arab immigration. But because it could not be recorded, no estimate of its numbers was included in the census count.[31] Ignoring illegal migrants does not mean they don't exist.

Setting illegal immigration into Palestine aside, the imputation model does generate substantial migrations of Arab Palestinians within Palestine itself and confirms what many demographers, historians, government administrators, and economists have alluded to: the migration of Arab Palestinians from villages, towns, and cities of low economic opportunity to villages, towns, and cities of higher economic opportunity.

Which towns, villages, and cities offered the higher economic opportunity? Analyzing the 1922 and 1931 demographic data by sub-district and separating those sub-districts of Palestine that eventually became 1948 Israel—that is, sub-districts that had relatively large Jewish populations (with accompanying Jewish capital and modern technology)—from those that were not designated as part of 1948 Israel, identified not only the direction of Arab Palestinian migration within Palestine but its magnitude as well.[32] http://www.meforum.org/article/522Gnardenburg

[Gnadenburg]

Bubbette

I opened the Old Testament tonight and noted where you get your borders from.

Back to the main topic and I sure hope the Qantas Crew haven't damaged our live export trade to the MidEast.:O

[Keg]

Saw on CNN a few weeks back that the USS Liberty wasn't an accident. Now I don't believe EVERYTHING I hear or see on CNN but this one seemed to be kosher! ( ;) )

[Spotlight]

One of Nietzsches pronouncements seems relative here. That is that there can be no absolute truth, merely many "truths," which are the tools of various groups, classes or forces.

I think, Gnadenburg that any impartial view of the situation between the Jew and the Arab could only conclude that each is as bad as the other.

[Bigkev]

Gnadenburg, what's your point?

Arafat is a terrorist, and the man he succeeded, the Grand Mufti who led the palestinian arabs had several meetings and a close relationship with Hitler and the Nazis during WW2. (As their goal was and still is one the same: to wipe out the Jews.)

Nothing justifies terrorism, from anyone.

It is no coincidence that Hitler's biography 'Mein Kampf' has been one of the best selling books in the palestinian territory.

"To suggest Israel a beacon of Western good manners in the MidEast fanciful." - I think not, Israel is the only country in the middle east you never see people celebrating on mass, and dancing in the streets after terrorist attacks.

Israel has offered Arafat everything he asked for more than once, and they didn't take it.

Hamas has also officially said that they will continue their suicide attacks even if Israel pulls out of the occupied territory.

Israel and the Palestinians are not "as bad as each other."

If the Palestinians wanted piece, they'd have it.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Israel is the only country in the middle east you never see people celebrating on mass, and dancing in the streets after terrorist attacks.

Big Kev, sorry I've never seen such celebrations in the UAE and last time I checked it's in the Middle East. I did however see the orthodox jews celebrate the incursion into the West Bank 9 years ago, where a number of innocent Palestinian civilians were killed "in the crossfire", by dancing through the Arab Quarter of the old city of Jerusalem, when I was there. I found the majority of the Western Jews in Israel to be interested in peace, but the majority of the predominantly Russian Orthodox Jews are only interested in the complete destruction of the Palestinian state.

I have never said the Palestinian groups such as Hamas are not terrorists and there is no denying Arafats background in terrorism, but to his credit he went along way to solving the crisis along with Rabin, before Israelis against peace assasinated Rabin.

Israel has offered Arafat everything he asked for more than once, and they didn't take it.

Arafat and the Palestinians have always asked for a completely independant Palestinian state that includes the Muslim majority East Jerusalem, and for the complete removal of the illegal Jewish settlements inside the Palestinian borders. This has never been offered, and as such has never been turned down.

If the Palestinians wanted piece, they'd have it.

If the Palestinians wanted peace under the Israelis terms that is, to have to get permission to move within their own territory, to be banned from entering areas within their own territory due to the presence of an illegal Jewish settlement, to live forever in the shadow of Jewish oppression in the form of gunships, tanks and outposts with machine guns pointed at them, then yes they could have that peace. But as any self respecting man would agree, you would prefer to die fighting for freedom, than to live under that regime.

By the way its spelt Hitler

[Gnadenburg]

Big Kev

Where you aware of possible Stern Gang attempts in 1940 to corroborate with Nazi Germany in return for support in the creation of a Jewish State?

You must remember that Jewish freedom fighters (terrorists?) were killing British soldiers and politicians at the time. Were these machinations and each way bet by Stern and Irgun?

What's my point?

I think that our conservative nature quickly aligns us with Israel through what is a western media perspective.

Form an opinion, have a Western bias(I do) but do be aware and not ignorant of the brutal and not so black and white past of Israel.

Death in Jerusalem a good read as is Stern Gang.

And for Bubbette's perspective just open the Old Testament.

Spotlight

I concur but I do have a slight Western bias.

[Bubbette]

Despite the Arabs not being Aryan, they were and have been one of Hitler's great supporters---this is not news--pick up a history book.

I did however see the orthodox jews celebrate the incursion into the West Bank 9 years ago, where a number of innocent Palestinian civilians were killed "in the crossfire", by dancing through the Arab Quarter of the old city of Jerusalem, when I was there. I found the majority of the Western Jews in Israel to be interested in peace, but the majority of the predominantly Russian Orthodox Jews are only interested in the complete destruction of the Palestinian state.

Um, I don't think you saw this at all. Care to elaborate what you actually saw? There are many parades throughout the Muslim quarter, if that's what you are referring to, and all of the Old City of Jerusalem at various holiday times, family celebrations, etc. So who exactly told you that this was in celebration of deaths, which is what you imply, or of an army operation, which happens all the time?

And the vast vast majority of Russian Orthodox Jews could care less about the Palestinians---whose state is Jordan, and they certainly don't want the destruction of that. From what revisionist sources are you gleaning this drivel? How many Russian Orthodox Jews do you think there are in Israel? I'd say less than 20,000, if that.

Re Muslims,though not necessarily Arabs here,

Muslim Students at Penn Sponsor Nazi
By Jonathan Calt Harris
FrontPageMagazine.com | October 9, 2003


This week the University of Pennsylvania’s Muslim Student Association (MSA) is celebrating its “Islam Awareness Week.” For the keynote address on Thursday, October 9, the MSA invited “Reverend” William W. Baker, a former chairman of a racist and anti-Semitic organization, the Populist Party.[1

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10233

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I'm not going to change your views bubbette and you're not going to change mine. I didn't want to get off the topic but when Big Kev said almost all terrorists are arab that rubbed me up the wrong way.

I know their are parades and family celebrations through the old city all the time, but this certainly wasn't. The group of I suppose 40 ultra orthodox jews were aggresively taunting the local arabs and trying to incite a reaction, that was until the security forces arrived. I know what I saw and I know what I was told.

I based what I say from speaking to people from all backgrounds while I was there, and while I wasn't able to visit the ultra orthodox jews let alone talk to them, I spoke to the more liberal western jews who I would meet in coffee shops.

Again you have your opinion and I have mine. I still believe the Palestinians have a right to a homeland as Israelis do, and Jordan certainly is not that homeland. I believe the Palestinians are having state sponsored terrorism committed upon them, you believe these are legitimate army operations. One question why if they are legitimate army operations, are groups of young israeli soldiers refusing to participate.

You blame the Palestinians for being Anti-Semites???? If not before Sharon, surely after they endured the last couple of years it would make anyone hate the people doing what has been done to them.

I guess you support the maintaining of the illegal jewish settlements also.

[Bubbette]

The Palestinians and all the Arabs were huge fans of Hitler way before Sharon came into power. I would like to know who told you what, re the Orthodox Jews---I find it very hard to believe, and it in no way represents the majority in the area, or Judaism. Not that anyone would be upset if the Arabs left the Old City--that's why there are constant negotiations to buy their homes. Because they will be assassinated by the PA if they do so, arrangements have to be made to get them safely out of Israel before the closing.

The Jewish settlements are in no way illegal, any more than the American settlements in the new world are illegal--where do you think they are illegal? Certainly not under any UN law, and no international laws apply as far as I know.

Jordan certainly is the Palestinian homeland. Who exactly do you think composes the majority of Jordanians?

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

As you'll see from what follows everyone in the UN sees what Israel is doing to the Palestinians to be illegal and it is only the U.S veto power that stops any anti-israel resolutions from being passed.

Vetoes: 1972-1982
Subject Date & Meeting US Rep Casting Veto Vote
Palestine: Syrian-Lebanese Complaint. 3 power draft resolution 2/10784 9/10/1972 Bush 13-1, 1
Palestine: Examination of Middle East Situation. 8-power draft resolution (S/10974) 7/2/1973 Scali 13-1, 0 (China not partic.)
Palestine: Egyptian-Lebanese Complaint. 5-power draft power resolution (S/11898) 12/8/1975 Moynihan 13-1, 1
Palestine: Middle East Problem, including Palestinian question. 6-power draft resolution (S/11940) 1/26/1976 Moynihan 9-1,3 (China & Libya not partic.)
Palestine: Situation in Occupied Arab Territories. 5-power draft resolution (S/12022) 3/25/1976 Scranton 14-1,0
Palestine: Report on Committee on Rights of Palestinian People. 4-power draft resolution (S/121119) 6/29/1976 Sherer 10-1,4
Palestine: Palestinian Rights. Tunisian draft resolution. (S/13911) 4/30/1980 McHenry 10-1,4
Palestine: Golan Heights. Jordan draft resolution. (S/14832/Rev. 2) 1/20/1982 Kirkpatrick 9-1,5
Palestine: Situation in Occupied Territories, Jordan draft resolution (S/14943) 4/2/1982 Lichenstein 13-1,1
Palestine: Incident at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. 4-power draft resolution 4/20/1982 Kirpatrick 14-1, 0
Palestine: Conflict in Lebanon. Spain draft resolution. (S/15185) 6/8/1982 Kirpatrick 14-1,0
Palestine: Conflict in Lebanon. France draft resolution. (S/15255/Rev. 2) 6/26/1982 Lichenstein 14-1
Palestine: Conflict in Lebanon. USSR draft resolution. (S/15347/Rev. 1, as orally amended) 8/6/1982 Lichenstein 11-1,3
Palestine: Situation in Occupied Territories, 20-power draft resolution (S/15895) 8/2/1983 Lichenstein 13-1,1



Security Council Vetoes/Negative voting 1983-present
Subject Date Vote
Occupied Arab Territories: Wholesale condemnation of Israeli settlement policies - not adopted 1983
S. Lebanon: Condemns Israeli action in southern Lebanon. S/16732 9/6/1984 Vetoed: 13-1 (U.S.), with 1 abstention (UK)
Occupied Territories: Deplores "repressive measures" by Israel against Arab population. S/19459. 9/13/1985 Vetoed: 10-1 (U.S.), with 4 abstentions (Australia, Denmark, UK, France)
Lebanon: Condemns Israeli practices against civilians in southern Lebanon. S/17000. 3/12/1985 Vetoed: 11-1 (U.S.), with 3 abstentions (Australia, Denmark, UK)
Occupied Territories: Calls upon Israel to respect Muslim holy places. S/17769/Rev. 1 1/30/1986 Vetoed: 13-1 (US), with one abstention (Thailand)
Lebanon: Condemns Israeli practices against civilians in southern Lebanon. S/17730/Rev. 2. 1/17/1986 Vetoed: 11-1 (U.S.), with 3 abstentions (Australia, Denmark, UK)
Libya/Israel: Condemns Israeli interception of Libyan plane. S/17796/Rev. 1. 2/6/1986 Vetoed: 10 -1 (US), with 4 abstentions (Australia, Denmark, France, UK)
Lebanon: Draft strongly deplored repeated Israeli attacks against Lebanese territory and other measures and practices against the civilian population; (S/19434) 1/18/1988 vetoed 13-1 (US), with 1 abstention (UK)
Lebanon: Draft condemned recent invasion by Israeli forces of Southern Lebanon and repeated a call for the immediate withdrawal of all Israeli forces from Lebanese territory; (S/19868) 5/10/1988 vetoed 14-1 (US)
Lebanon: Draft strongly deplored the recent Israeli attack against Lebanese territory on 9 December 1988; (S/20322) 12/14/1988 vetoed 14-1 (US)
Occupied territories: Draft called on Israel to accept de jure applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention; (S/19466) 1988 vetoed 14-1 (US)
Occupied territories: Draft urged Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention, rescind the order to deport Palestinian civilians, and condemned policies and practices of Israel that violate the human rights of the Palestinian people in the occupied territories; (S/19780) 1988 vetoed 14-1 (US)
Occupied territories: Strongly deplored Israeli policies and practices in the occupied territories, and strongly deplored also Israel's continued disregard of relevant Security Council decisions. 2/17/1989 Vetoed 14-1 (US)
Occupied territories: Condemned Israeli policies and practices in the occupied territories. 6/9/1989 Vetoed 14-1 (US)
Occupied territories: Deplored Israel's policies and practices in the occupied territories. 11/7/1989 Vetoed 14-1 (US)
Occupied territories: NAM draft resolution to create a commission and send three security council members to Rishon Lezion, where an Israeli gunmen shot down seven Palestinian workers. 5/31/1990 Vetoed 14-1 (US)
Middle East: Confirms that the expropriation of land by Israel in East Jerusalem is invalid and in violation of relevant Security Council resolutions and provisions of the Fourth Geneva convention; expresses support of peace process, including the Declaration of Principles of 9/13/1993 5/17/1995 Vetoed 14-1 (US)
Middle East: Calls upon Israeli authorities to refrain from all actions or measures, including settlement activities. 3/7/1997 Vetoed 14-1 (US)
Middle East: Demands that Israel cease construction of the settlement in east Jerusalem (called Jabal Abu Ghneim by the Palestinians and Har Homa by Israel), as well as all the other Israeli settlement activity in the occupied territories 3/21/1997 Vetoed 13-1,1 (US)
Call for UN Observers Force in West Bank, Gaza 3/27/2001 Vetoed 9-1 (US),
with four abstentions
(Britain, France, Ireland and Norway)
Condemned acts of terror, demanded an end to violence and the establishment of a monitoring mechanism to bring in observers. 12/15/2001 Vetoed 12-1 (US)
with two abstentions (Britain and Norway)
Demand that Israel halt threats to expel Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat 9/16/03 Vetoed 11-1 (US)
with three abstentions
(Britain, Germany and Bulgaria)

But of course Israel continues to get away literally with murder because of the old golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules. The US has the gold and Israel is only in existance due to the continued support of the US. Or are you going to argue against that as well. Looks pretty clear from these figures why the US veto every anti-Israeli resolution.

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Cost per Israeli
$23,240

By the way there are 1.5 million displaced Palestinians living as refugees in Jordan out of a total population of 5.3 million.

[Bubbette]

The UN, a bastion only of 3rd world dictators has no legal and certainly no moral right to state what is and isn't illegal. I am shocked that with Syria on the counter terrorism commision and Libya on the human rights commission anyone takes the UN seriously now or in the past.

You are confusing Israel, the saviors of the area, with the murdering Palestinian thugs. Last time I checked, the Palestinians were blowing up diners, and shooting 7 month old babies out of their mother's arms.

Re the dollar figures--who cares, when you don't contrast them with the far larger amounts given to the Egyptians, Jordanians etc. In any case, the logistical and intelligence help, as well as the fact that 90% of the grants (not sure where loan guarantees, which are not cash transfers come into play here) have to be spent in the US, ensure that the US gets far more benefit out of this than does Israel.

Again, why do you say Israel "murders"?

[max AB]

How about you guys just email each other and spare us all from your ramblings. Woomera are you getting all this?

[Gnadenburg]

Bubbette

Let's keep our discussion West of the River Jordan! Quite rightly where it belongs.

QF

I really hope the girls and boys who walked of the QF flight realise they have played into the hands of many. Much the same way as Pauline Hanson played into the hands of Mahatir etc.

A little ripple at home but a wave in the Arabian Gulf.

And what about our sheep?:{ :{


Max AB

Head in the sand Australian or are you fogetting how quickly you and your compound can become part of Western foreign policy?

After the first anniversay of Bali people still ask why?

Un-deserving and possibly irrational, but these despots use Israel and Western Policy as the excuse or catalyst.

The F/A's in the worst case ignorant, you shouldn't get off so lightly.

[Woomera]

Yes I am Max, and I really don't have the time to read so many comments that are clearly off topic. I also don't feel comfortable with a debate on Jewish - Arab relations in PPRuNe - it has the ability to either get out of hand or unnecessarily offend someone when a Woomeri is not watching.

The thread topic is:

Qantas admits Arab 'terror' blunder

Can we stick closer to the topic, please?

Ta! :ok:

Woomera

[Bubbette]

How does this tie in with the column by El Al's former security chief that says knowledgeable staff are the key more than technology?

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Sorry got carried away, back onto the topic we go.

As I said if the UAE guys were wearing innocent flying caps, it sounds like a gross over reaction, but considering the over reaction towards arabs recently in the western media I can sort of understand why. Not that that condones there actions, far from it.

[Nearly Man]

Hey, I used to go out with a biscuit chucker .. I never listened to anything she used to say cos it mostly involved shopping and other such nonsense. Why would I listen to her views regarding racial profiling?