degree in ac maintenance engineering

[Pilot16]

Hi,

I been reading this forum...i hear that to be an 'actual' engineer you need a degree.

Can anyone tell me how i can persue a degree qualification in Aircraft maintenance engineering?
How long does it take? Can someone very briefly explain the route/s...

thanks in advance :ok:

[Blacksheep]

To be recognised as a 'professional engineer' it is generally necessary to be an engineering graduate. There are other paths for experienced technicians. The traditional apprenticeship entry routes have all but disappeared and many people in the business think there is now an over emphasis on academic knowledge. There may be some merit in this opinion. The real problem though, is the lowly status of 'Technicians' in modern society.

I don't know of any degrees that are specifically directed towards aircraft maintenance engineering and in any case a degree won't qualify the holder for a licence to certify maintenance work. I suggest you get a degree in engineering then find work in aircraft maintenance and work towards obtaining a JAR 66 B1 or B2 licence first, then go for the C licence. According to another thread in this forum, Big Airways will then place you in charge of a Hangar and pay you around 60 thousand pounds a year.

Good Luck!

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Through difficulties to the cinema

[Tempsford]

For information on a Degree in Aircraft Maintenance contact Kingston University. I believe the degree is combined with B1, B2.
For those who are tempted to relight the fire of Engineers/Technicians and who should be called what, please don't.

Regards,

Tempsford

[STC]

I suggest you get a degree in engineering then find work in aircraft maintenance and work towards obtaining a JAR 66 B1 or B2 licence first, then go for the C licence.

A degree in engineering won't help you when it comes to maintenance. I would skip this advice.

[Krystal n chips]

This reply is directed at both yourself and Spinningtop so please read carefully. If you both wish to enter Aviation as a career, fine and the best of luck to you both. However, before you do so think carefully. Do you wish to enter the maintenance or manufacturing sectors?. Think long term here. I can appreciate that at your ages the "hands on" aspect may seem very appealing and the Licence the obvious route to take. BUT, and it is a big BUT, this will prove to be very restrictive in years to come. I would suggest you both persue the Degree route and gain a qualification that will offer you greater scope in the future--not to mention a better working environment as well as personal and intellectual development. Once you have this qualification, you could possibly explore areas such as the PFA and the BGA for hands on involvement to compliment your Degree training. If you pursue the Licence route however,you will encounter quite a few tabloid reading luddites who have yet to understand that a Licence is purely a vocational qualification to satisfy the regulatory requirements. To many, the Licence is the "holy grail" and they cannot see beyond the limitations it imposes. If you have a Degree as well, you can expect to encounter an awful lot of insularity and downright hostility from a significant number of LAE's who feel that you have not done a "proper apprenticeship" and therefore have to be treated like an idiot So, I suggest you both think very carefully about the long term and the benefits you will obtain from going down the Degree route. And if you want another option, consider the RAF. It may not be the organisation it once was, but all organisations change ( well some don't I know ! ) and you will gain a lot of invaluable experience in both Aviation and life. Best of luck to you both.

[STC]

Fill me in on something here. Is there even such a thing as a degree in Aircraft Maintenance Engineering? I say no.

A degree in Engineering does nothing for an AME. Much like a diploma in any aircraft maintenance course does nothing for an engineer. (P. Eng)

As "Krystal and Chips" mentioned, it never hurts to keep your options open. But who can afford to go to school for that long with no income? I say stick to one thing and evolve as you see fit.

[Blacksheep]

Krystal n chips says it perfectly. Aircraft maintenance people are hostile to graduates. Manufacturing and design people look askance at graduates who work in maintenance. That is however no reason to avoid graduating then going into maintenance; all work places have similar internal clashes and you cannot avoid conflict in the working world. Do what you want to do and take no notice of backbiters.

You looked for opinions, here's mine; you should get the degree first then if you really wish to work in maintenance rather than manufacturing, do the hands on and get the vocational qualifications. You won't need the degree for maintenance activities, but intellectual development produces the well rounded individual who is generally better fitted for higher positions later in the career path. I do stress that intellectual development is never a handicap.

There is nothing in the on-line prospectus for Kingston's aeronautical engineering courses that seems to lead to B1 or B2 licence qualifications. The various course contents do appear to produce a suitable foundation though. Go for it and Good Luck to you.

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Through difficulties to the cinema

[eng123]

Krystal n chips,

You are correct in questioning this guy as to whether he wants to work in maintenance or manufacturing.A degree is of little use in maintenance so if you want to work in maintenance then forget the degree.For what it's worth,I work in maintenance and do not possess a degree but thoroughly enjoy my job.I don't regret any choices I have made in my career path so far.I read in the paper today that less than 1 in 3 people can say that so we can't be that bad in maintenance!

HOWEVER!!

Can you please define 'Tabloid reading Luddites'??!! What the **** is a luddite? Oh,by the way,I read The Sun.Maybe that explains it.Thinking about it,maybe if I had a degree then I would know what a 'luddite' is [obviously my 'o' level grade 'A' [honest guv] does not qualify me in English Language.Ho Humm!!

By the way,my 'purely vocational qualification' earns me 46K basic plus overtime.I'm sure that your degree must earn you more so please don't embarass me by stating how much you earn.Oh ok,you can if you like.....

Personal and intellectual development???!! As I have said,I thoroughly enjoy my job,every day is different,learning more and more about the aircraft all the time.AOG aircraft down-route is often a challenging and rewarding experience.Especially when a night stop is involved..........!!!

I would like to mention my true feelings about your envious,condescending attitude,but having already engaged the likeable Genghis in similar confrontations and been awarded a yellow card,I feel I can't for fear of being banned!

All the best,
technician123.

[Krystal n chips]

ENG 123,
Thank you for exemplifying my sentiments. I earn considerably less than £46k actually. I do not intend to commence a facile debate on this forum, but please feel free to PM me and we can continue from there. As for the vocational qualification, can you offer an alternative definition at all?. As I say, the Licence is precisely that and nothing else. It has very little transferablity to other sectors, unlike for example DipSW, and the sole reason it exists is to satisfy the legislation. Next ?.

[mono]

If you take the JAA route then there is a route to the C licence via a degree.

A look at the UK CAA web site explains it, but the jist is that as the SMI CRS signatory is in essence carrying out a administrative/managerial role, it is not necessary to be a B1/B2 engineer. The current situation is that most C engineers are also B1 or B2 however as time progresses this will change (especially when the companies realise that they don't have to pay the C licenced guy as much as the B1/B2 guys!!)

As for engineer or tech? It says engineer on my licence (albeit my CAA one) and I have the letters I.Eng after my name (for what they're worth) courtesy of the Engineering council and the RAeS. So I consider myself an engineer!

[Tempsford]

There is such a thing as a Degree in Aircraft Maintenance and it is geared to obtaining B1/2 whilst doing the degree. A number of Companies who used to run Apprenticeship Schemes are going down this route as an alternative to Apprenticeships.
I have visited the Kingston University Students at KLM Norwich who will have a Degree in Aircraft Maintenance when they finish and the required modules for their B1/2. They were keen, enthusiastic and bright. They do the usual classroom work and workshop practical the same as any Apprentice does.
None of the students I spoke to were in the slightest way phased by having a degree and banked JAR 66 modules and having to start at the bottom and to work up the ladder when they first join a Company. They just wanted to work on aircraft. To the people in Maintenance who have a problem with working with graduates, I suggest that you look again as they are on their way to you in numbers and you will be coming across these folks very soon. The Instructors at NWI are mainly ex-forces NCO's who have a wealth of experience and have very good instructional and people skills. The students will have lived away from home and had to fend for themselves which again cannot be a bad thing.
What they have to do after finshing University is to satisfy the requirements of hands on experience in order to obtain their JAR 66 . A number of Companies are looking at taking them on with a view to working through the required experience levels and hopefully obtaining their Licences.
This is a new perspective and in my humble opinion worth a try. It is now time to put the attitudes of the past behind us. The Company I work for employs a number of Aircraft Engineering Graduates. The dealings that I have had with them have shown that they are capable and can offer a great deal. One of them is now considering taking his JAR 66 Licences.
I would suggest that we all recognise the fact that our skill base is declining due to folks leaving the industry due to retirement and career change and they are not being replenished by the numbers being trained. From the projections I have seen this situation is only going to worsen. This initiative should be commended and supported by us all. These folks are our future Aircraft Maintenance Engineers and I for one welcome this initiative.
A number of folks on here are mssing the point and the evident discord could lead to a decline in our industry. We should be looking to enhance and promote it. The future Aircraft Maintenance Engineers of our industry are being trained by such places as Kinsgston University and they are coming onto the job marketplace now. Be supportive of these graduates. Give them the help they need and make them feel welcome. They have a great attitude which could be changed by the negativity and prejudice that exists amongst some members of our profession. Please do not allow this to happen.

Regards

Tempsford

[eng123]

I certainly wouldn't have any problems working alongside a graduate at any time in the future.I would lend them the experience I have gained over the years and would enjoy learning from them.
I do,however,have a problem with people like Krystal who are running down my hard earned maintenance licence,as though it is akin to something you would pick up having worked in a Kwik Fit garage for a few weeks.It's not.

[Krystal n chips]

ENG 123,
For your information, I went through the exam / oral process for my Licence and frankly there is no comparison between obtaining a vocational qualification to support the legislation ( and that is precisely what a Licence is ) and reading for a Degree--which I did and thus have. Enrol at your local University, fund the course yourself, take and pass ALL the exams and the essay to accompany each module, carry on working while you are doing so and then come back in say 5 years time when you have graduated and contrast and compare. It's called life long learning and I am a passionate advocate of such. As Tempsford so correctly states, times are changing and the sooner the better in the maintenance world.

[eng123]

Krystal,
Did you pass your licence then?
Assuming you did then it's true that you are probably in a better position to compare the difficulties of gaining one or the other.I have never had the desire to get a degree as I enjoy what I do and can probably earn more doing so.You must also remember that it isn't just passing an exam to get the basic licence,it's also all the years of learning and perfecting your skills on the job.
This normally involves a four year apprenticeship with day release study at college.Once you have completed that then you have a period of working under and learning from licenced engineers.That process can easily take as long and as much effort as anyone spending afew years at university.Sure,it's a different sort of learning but I would put it to you that it requires the same amount of effort.Then,once you have your basic licence,you need to undergo specific type training,then carry out enough work on the type to be able to submit worksheets to the required standard to enable you to sit and pass a board by the quality department.Once you have successfully done all this you are in the position to certify your first aircraft.Hardly what you would call a vocational qualification.
You keep banging on that the licence is there 'just to satisfy the legislation'.What reason do you think there is that need? Are you suggesting it would be alright to have anyone just turning up and certifying the maintenance work on your aircraft before you board to go away on holiday? Of course not.
Oh,by the way.I'm still waiting for you to tell me what a 'Luddite' is.

[Blacksheep]

The French seem to have managed without licences for long enough eng123. I wouldn't describe their system as having aircraft maintenance people "just turning up and certifying the maintenance work" though.

The reason why a licence is a vocational qualification is that it qualifies one for only a single job. Some years ago, in a fit of madness I applied to migrate to Australia. They needed 'electricians' and as I had quite a lot of experience working at a second job re-wiring houses to try and make ends meet, I applied as an electrician. The Aussie labour department decided that I wasn't really an electrician but an aircraft maintenance engineer and as they already had a surfeit of avionics chaps down under, they turned me down. Its an occupational thing - my vocation as it were. So, until you can get a job in a different occupation with it, the licence remains a vocational qualification.

In contrast, the degree that I earned after the abortive attempt to transport myself to Oz [and more than twenty three years as an LAE] is a fully transportable qualification. I wouldn't waste it on the Aussies though ;)

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Through difficulties to the cinema

[Krystal n chips]

ENG 123,
May I suggest you read the excellent response from Blacksheep who has summated the matters perfectly.

To answer your two questions however:
1. Yes I did pass and my Licence is still current.

2. ISBN - 0 - 19 - 861308 - 3.

I feel that the original theme of this topic has now been covered in enough detail to warrant no further discussion. However, I do have one question for you please.
Would you be kind enough to offer us a breakdown of how you achieve your much vaunted £46k pa as I am sure there are others, as well as myself, who are intrigued as to how this figure is achieved.

[asheng]

Krystal n chips.

Like eng123 I also hold an aircraft engineering licence and like eng123 I would have no problems and in fact have had no problems working and teaching graduate engineers in the past.

Mostly these lads come from an educational enviroment and suddenly they are allowed to work on live aircraft but then they realise what a daunting experiance it can sometimes be and to help and assist them is now part of the job in todays day and age. I do the job because I enjoy it and it gives me satisfaction,even more so when you are supervising young people who want to learn and progress within our industry. Obviously there is a financial element to the job as well as its keeps me in a comfortable standard of living and I earn approximately the same as eng123 for my experiance,toils and "vocational Qualifacations" (just don't let the 185+ passengers know that these licences are just a vocational qualifacation as they might not want to fly. Not good for the companies business!).

One thing I cant quite get my Luddite brain around though and it puzzles me.

What makes you such an arrogant S**T and on what basis can you try and demean anyones qualifacations. By virtue of the fact that "wow" you hold a current licence and now you have elevated yourself to a higher being you now hold a degree. Many people have held views on the virtues of holding degrees/licences and I among them. The majority of these views can be gauged on these threads but by and large (even Ghegis included) we all accept that we all have a fundemental role to play in the aviation industry,but you seem to take arrogance to a new unfound level. Congratulations are due here.

Please when you fly with any airline again just remember that your aircraft is maintained by "Sun reading Luddites" and will be flown by someone holding another Vocational Qualifacation because you cant transfer a pilots licence to any other job either (Its not a prerequisite to becoming a brain surgeon yet) and the chances of you having a mishap are pretty remote because of these two types of professional people.

On the other hand you may wish to bring your offensive attitude
along to the company where I work and perhaps I myself could give you some instuction into the virtues of aircraft engineering that you may not have seen before. Let me know,send a PM if you wish. I would be more than happy to instruct/supervise you,a pleasure I am sure.

PS. I read the Telegraph and inside it I will leave you my payslip,It would be quite an experiance for you.We could invite Eng123 along if you!:ok:

[mono]

Krystal,

Just a quickie, not wishing to get too involved in this thread which seems to be getting quite angry.

I work for a UK charter airline, and my before tax salary is about 46k. It would seem to be about the norm for a senior licenced engineer (or tech whatever takes your fancy). A senior eng being one with the relevant type ratings and around 5-6 yrs type experience.

It comprises around 42k basic, a little overtime (never more than 2-4 hours a week) and the odd jolly. The shift pattern is 4 on 4 off, comprising 2 days then 2 nights. This I can assure you is a fairly standard package in the industry.

Several of my collegues are on considerably more than this on account of the vast overtime they do. One took HOME more than £3500 the other month. This from a permenant job with the usual benefits one would expect, not a contract.

[Krystal n chips]

Mono,
Thank you for a balanced reply. I am aware of the salary scales, but am also aware that much is dependent on the Operator, the extent and discipline of the type cover held, the location and the length of service as well as the work area ie Line or Base. I am sure you will agree these variables can, and do, make a signiificant difference. As you say though, some people are getting a little angry about this thread. Which would only confirm some of the views expressed here.

Asheng. Thank you for your polemic. Please take some time to read the messages carefully. At no point do I denigrate the Licence, I simply quantify the status. I, and others, have also indicated to those seeking information that a Degree plus a Licence ( in that order ) offers a better career path and options. Being a Torygraph reader however, one could never accuse you of bias or supporting constructive debate now could one? :hmm: Yes, I would like to fly in a certified Aircraft---isn't that a legal requirement after all ?. However, for your information, I have a life long habit of flying in any aircraft I have maintained ranging from FJ's, Helo's, Gliders, Light A/C and Commercial types. To me this is non negotiable and I will fly in virtually anything given the opportunity. However, I have lost count of the number of "Engineers" who utter the mantra, " I only fix it, I don't fly in it". I am sure you do show ab-initio graduates around the types you maintain and with the best will in the world. However, I have also witnessed numerous LAE's who try to impress with their type knowledge, are openly hostile to those under their care and also ensure that any repetitive task is allocated to these people. The interpersonal and communication skills being more relevant to a Schoolyard at times. Yes, a live aircraft can be daunting and even more so when it has a live seat and some interesting munitions. As for arrogance, far from it. All I have done is offer an opinion which many may share and which you have duly exemplified. Please check your PM's. I have to say that I am rather amazed at the ferocity of some of the responses, but not overly concerned either.

[Tempsford]

I have been away for a few days and was disappointed to see that this thread has been reduced to a level reminiscent of previous discussions on the subject of degree/licence and engineer/technician.
There is more than a slight suspicion that a bit of 'baiting' is being introduced by those who should know better.
It was interesting to see that a mention has been made of our friends across the Channel and how they have operated without Licences. We may be under JAR, but how various countries set the requirements for the issuance of a JAR 66 Licence is a slightly more interesting and relevant subject than a limited number of people on this forum who have a relentless intent on seeing how far they can go to 'wind' each other up.
The use of the words 'vocational qualification' for an Aircraft Engineers Licence are of course true (and in the case of this thread intimidatory) as the qualification is only good for working on aircraft. However, a number of Licenced Engineers that I know have moved on to work in the Oil Industry, F1 Racing Teams, OEM's, Insurance Companies, Marine Engineering, Senior Management/Directorship, Commercial Pilot etc, etc. For them the Aircraft Engineers Licence has been the catalyst to them progressing in their careers. They have shown that they have achieved a high standard in their field, are capable of retaining and using the knowledge they have learnt, are analytical and are lateral thinkers. This may seem familiar to those degree holders amongst us as this is exactly what a degree does as well. And before the degree holders amongst you start, how many people do you know who did a degree in one field and actually started off in their working career in another field. I know quite a few.
'I only work in and don't fly in it' was an accutely offensive remark made by another person in this thread to gain the optimum intimidatory impact. I am amazed that someone is trying to create the impression that there are a significant number of Aircraft Maintenence Engineers who have that mind set. There is no doubt that there are some, but by far the vast majority would be deeply offended by such remarks. Many staff who work in the Department I manage spend hundreds of hours in the air each year working with the aircraft on Long Haul/ETOPS support. They fly on the aircraft that they also maintain and certify.
Can we please stop this infighting. It serves no purpose. Those seeking to 'wind' up a number of people on this thread have succeeded, again! I do trust that you feel suitably proud of yourselves.

Regards

Tempsford

[Krystal n chips]

Temsford,
How regretable that you have misconstrued my comments. I will say that being definitive does not construe as being intimadatory. Possibly this is one reason, semantics aside, that Engineers are so insular and refuse to accept that progress is a fact of life. Stagnate or die to be honest. Yes, some do leave the profession ( happy now ? ) but the vast majority remain as transference to other sectors is difficult without a recognised qualification eg HNC / Degree etc. Contrast this with DipSW for example, again a vocational qualification, but one which offers the holder considerably more scope to diversify should they so wish. I am aware the CAA state the Licence is comparable to an HNC / D but the fact remains that many employers in other sectors will simply say " Licence--so what ? " As for Engineers not wishing to fly with an Aircraft, well some do under duress, others because it's a perk going down route, some, like myself, who actively enjoy flying in any event--not to mention gaining a better understanding the pressures Crews operate under and fostering better working relationships--again another "nasty" area for those who insist on the "us and them" philosophy and those who flatly refuse to fly unless as a pax because of the reasons I stated. Aircraft Maintenance / Engineering is a closed world to the public as a whole. Why ? Why are Engineers so reluctant to break with so called traditional values and thus develop further in both a personal and professional capacity. How many times have I heard the lament that "we get treated like dirt" etc---and what do the majority do about this state of affairs? Absolutely nothing--just carry on as before and moan to high heaven. Heaven forbid that any outside influences may actually benefit their cause let alone those of us who have tried to change matters---for the good of all please note, not personal satisfaction. And then people get upset when the term Luddite is used.

[Tempsford]

Krystal

I fully understand what you are attempting to say, perhaps you should listen a bit more to what others are saying.

Luddite by definition is for those who are resisitant to change. The industry is changing and there are many people in key areas who have the foresight and imagination to ensure that it is changing to break down what were seen as previously insurmountable barriers and make our industry stronger I am not sure what area you are working in now, but my role is at the 'coal face' of heavy aircraft maintenance. To classify the majority in aircraft maintenance as luddites is doing them a dis-service.

There are trips down route which involve going to sunnier climes I agree, but there are also AOG rescues down route often to less exotic locations which, in the 30 years that I have been working on aircraft we have never failed to get staff to support a requirement for them to fly down route to effect a repair. The work often involves flying back on the aircraft that they have repaired. The have therefore 'fixed them' and 'flown back' on them.

The relationship between Ground Engineers and Aircrew is one of the most unique examples of teamwork and trust that exists anywhere. The Aircrew and the Engineers have a unique bond when it comes to the job in hand. Over the years I have attended the retirement parties of many pilots. In virtually every case they have thanked us for our efforts. A number of Aircrew have also said that the special realtionship is very important to them. Do not underestimate this relationship and do not assume that there is an 'us' and 'them' atttiude with all Ground Engineers and Aircrew. This only happens when we discuss pay scales and allowances and conditions, but that is a different story.

There are more who welcome change than perhaps is being perceived. If my previous mails on this subject are noted it indicates that I have identified that change is required, but a change in attitude must come from all areas of the Aircraft Engineering Profession, whatever their background.

What is not needed is a perceived attitude of superiority from those who have a degree to the Ground Engineers that they are 'under achievers' and for Ground Engineers to intimate that anyone with a degree is not suited to a Maintenance environment. Both are simply not true.

This is a forum and as such a right to express one's opinion should be encouraged, but any input should be objective and not subjective.

Regards

Tempsford

[ragspanner]

K'n chips,
Is there a problem ?, you seem 'very' embittered . I must disagree Licence then degree oldboy, inexperienced graduate engineers are underpaid. Engineers in which ever industry are notoriously undervalued.
I would suggest B1 or B2 ,pick up a few types & a little experience then attend Kingston Uni' part time (2 yrs) for their BEng hons in aircraft engineering. Not only will you have obtained K n C's much vaunted qualification but you will be' industry' experienced.
Money is an issue & it may be difficult to find a graduate post that pays as well as most licenced positions.
After momentarily raising my ape like head from the SUN , i was able to glean from my fellow licenced knuckle draggers ,by means of hand gesture & guttural grunts (those who were not engaged in smashing mechanical devices as:"they be the works of satan") that they to agreed you had managed to both insult & condescend in equal measure, BRAVO !.
I was going to write a longer reposte but due in no small part to the fact that i lack higher cognitive function, i shall instead aggressively beat my chest then take a nap:E .

[Blacksheep]

I started off with a traditional apprenticeship straight from school at age 16 did some time in the military then advanced through work experience, night school and City and Guilds to secure a type rated UKCAA Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Licence. I was also proud to be a member of Britain's last Craft Union (the ETU). While certifying B707s for Big Airways I was a signatory to the Certificate of Maintenance and although I could sign off a complete check within the avionic categories and despite the fancy gold letters on the cover of my licence, my job title was 'Certifying Lead Tradesman' Given my background, Tradesmanship is a word that I do not take lightly.

But the world has moved on. I'm sure everyone is comfortable and happy with their existing salary and conditions but for those of you who only read the first three pages of The Sun "Wor Tony" (as he's known in Sedgefield) and his cronies are changing the education system and administrative law within the EU is also coming into play. Traditional vocational training schemes have all but disappeared and in future more young people will enter the job market from further and higher education; a shift that will change whole career structures in all industries.

For those who are about to start their careers now, old time career advice is inappropriate for they will face a different future. 'ragspanner' is correct to point out that inexperienced graduate engineers are underpaid, but his suggestion of getting experience first then going for a degree may be misguided. By the time our new starter has acquired his licences and picked up some type approvals and experience he is also likely to have picked up a few years, a wife and a family. Money is then indeed an issue! Then comes the not so minor issue of getting time off to study; in future, employers will be recruiting existing graduates from the expanded output of further education - will they then be as amenable to giving existing workers time off for study as they are today (not)?

These are the things I considered in giving my advice and I still stand by it. Young people who are just about to leave school now will have a brighter future in the long term if they graduate first then settle down to working. The old ways will no longer suffice and those who opt for short term gain will find themselves competing with better educated but equally qualified people later in their careers. Short termism is always a mistake.

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Through difficulties to the cinema