RAF Merlins

[Neil Porter]

Just an observation but i have recently noticed the distinct lack of RAF Merlin activity recently.. i normally used to see a few out on the apron at Benson & beetling around the Abingdon circuit at regularish but very quiet of late.

I heard unofficially the Merlins are suffering abit from lack of spares - if so is this a common setback with new aircraft ???
Can anyone shed any light on this

Ta

[Jobza Guddun]

The deafening silence leads me to think you may be quite close to the truth Neil......

[right chopper]

Or it's air show season. I hear they make a lovely static...

[zalt]

rc - those would be Bosnian airshows perhaps?

[BEagle]

Heard 6 RAF Merlins flying overheard British West Oxfordshire today in formation....

Real ones, that is, not those horrible clattering things from Benson. 4 Merlins attached to the Lancaster and one each to 2 Spitfires!

[Jobza Guddun]

Good to hear the Lanc is out and about BEags, last I heard it was in dock for severe tailwheel vibration and looking at possble long-term repair.:ok:

[Airbedane]

You beat me to it, Beags, I was going to say that if you want to hear Merlins, then try the environs of Coningsby, Duxford, Old Warden or Filton. I didn't think that there were any about at Benson..........that's a helo base, isn't it? But I've said it now!?

Airbedane

[Training Risky]

There is a force of 3 (?) Freaky Merlins working for SFOR in Banja Luka, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

[Neil Porter]

I know they are prone to "breaking" alot, i seem to remember one that was 6 days old when it visited my 2001 Abingdon Fayre at Abingdon airfield, upon landing the tail rotor unit went u/s.
And ie: one would start up, for it to shut down, crew dismount & get into another!!

But despite the niggles i guess on new types, it is a bloody big Helicopter - & agile too.

Wouldn't it pay for the RAF to purchase a big wad of spares so would not have the problem of "robbing" other Helis for bits so to have more serviceable?

Q: Why does the Naval Merlin have one main wheel each side whereas the RAF examples have two on each side??

And i noticed the Naval Merlin has "mirrors" above the cabin - any reason??

[jockspice]

Neil
To enable manoeuvring within the close confines of a DD/FF flight deck.
And the mirrors...... so you can see behind! Check blind spot, mirror, signal, manoeuvre.
:ok:

[Tourist]

The mirrors are so you can see if the top is on fire.
Amazingly enough that is not a joke.
Unlike westlands...........

[jungly]

About 10yrs ago I was at Wastelands and they told me that when the first landed the SH Merlin on the grass, it sunk in to the ground up to its belly.
Ooops!
Hence the SH version now has tandem wheels to decrease the wheel loading when landing on unprepared surfaces.

[Oggin Aviator]

If the RN Merlins have the wing mirrors to keep an eye on possible fires up top (which they do), why dont the RAF ones have them? I know there are differences in the airframe (undercarriage/ramp etc) down to role specifics but arent the gearbox and engines the same, hence potentially the same problems ?

The wing mirrors would also be a help on the SH model to aid avoiding getting bounced one would think.

Oggin

[TURNBULL]

I suspect you'll see a lot of the Merlin around Benson as it'll always remain the second choice when the Army needs SH!!!!

That is until they find a role that suits its limited payload, CSAR?

[right chopper]

I'm sure its range and speed will be ideally suited to JPR.
The VIP version looks quite Gucci too and aptly named the
U/S101...sorry US101.

[jungly]

Oggin,

Not sure about the Merlin's mirrors but it could depend on the posn of the IR jammers?

The junglie seakings dont have mirrors either as the IR heat from jammers would reflect directly into the pilots eyes.

From memory the dangerous distance was 10m.

Might be the same thing?

[Grimweasel]

Is the floor really made of highly compressed cardboard?

[Amateur Aviator]

The Merlins have been up north working with the army plodding around the Otterburn and Catterick area I think. Don't worry though, normal Abingdon service will resume I'm sure as they left Leeming on Friday, all at the same time not on a low loader or in a C-17!

[Jobza Guddun]

"Wouldn't it pay for the RAF to purchase a big wad of spares so would not have the problem of "robbing" other Helis for bits so to have more serviceable?"

I wish....

Having enough spares would prevent us from doing three times the work required just to complete one job, and would make the aircraft last a bit longer as it wouldn't always be the same ones flying!!!

Couldn't have that could we?

:hmm:

[TURNBULL]

A 28 Sqn Flight Commander was quoted in the RAF News saying that the Merlin was the best helicopter in its class in the RAF and indeed the world!!!!!

Which class would that be then:

a. The most expensive per copy class.

b. The least useable payload per gross wt class.

c. The guess which role it can do class.

Any other suggestions?

[M609]

A buddy of mine, flying around in them rotary things (no, not a Merlin, we don't have them ;) ) once said that; "If they get new helicopters from We***and I'm gonna quit" (refferig to the maintenance intensive heaps in the hangar of another Sqn)

Same person is greatful to be flying a US model at present, anticipating the arrival of the NH90 (likely) in 2012
:E

[dangermouse]

First without getting on a soapbox....

The mirrors are not fitted to the Mk3 because the rear crew can use the bubble windows in the rear to check around the aircraft (intrestingly how do you check if the top of a Chinook is on fire?)

The twin wheels are fitted because of the soft ground operations requirement for a SH aircraft, the (as normal when it comes to rumours) exaggerated comments from other posters about 'bellying in' the aircraft are not true. Actually we are pretty good at maths and things as we do build aircraft after all and we kind of knew that soft grass ops with one wheel is a nogo and that's why we fitted two.

Spares are always a problem for a new aircraft, as correctly pointed out by others, but at least that is something that can be solved. I recognise that in some cases there are insufficient to maintain the fleet but we are aware of it.

A rhetorical question to the board....

What is in the Britsih psyche to always slag off UK products but think everybody elses is great? Why not ask all the vast number of NH90 users what they think and how servicable their aircraft are, oh sorry there aren't any in service yet are there? Well approach Sikorsky about the S92, oops there we go again.

I am sure the comments by the CO of the Bosnia detachment are heartfelt, after all he has no reason to be nice to us. The aircraft is a great product (as the US president will no doubt find out in due course)but has yet to find its true voctaion in the RAF. I agree that CSAR and SF roles are tailor made for it but we shall have to wait and see what the MoD say.

As an employee of Westlands (you might have guessed) I can only add a line from Forrest Gump: 'if youv'e got nothing good to say, say nothing'

:ok:

[LoeyDaFrog]

Just to jump off thread completely. But. is that the TURNBULL who spent a few months out in a very ****ty place being guarded by locals with AKs and partaking of the odd G&T at the Rose and Crown. If it is then hello and all the best. If not, then I shall just run away from all the banter that will, I am sure, be heading my way.

[Gainesy]

Dangermouse
My Westlands-built garage door operates very well, thank you.

Well, most of the time.

[Neil Porter]

Dangermouse - how many versions of the Merlin are there now, apart from the RAF / Naval versions???

The Comorant is the Canadian version isn't it - is that based on the HC3 RAF version?


I did not realise how many interesting comments from people have been "aired" on this thread - interesting reading tho!!

[TURNBULL]

Dangermouse,

Quote: 'from Forrest Gump: 'if youv'e got nothing good to say, say nothing'

I too have a Westland garage door which works fine, so that's something good to say!

But you're wrong, the Merlin doesn't get slagged off because the product is British, its because its not up to the role it was procured for.

Our troops rely on us, the SH Force, to provide them with the best lift capability available within our limited defence budget - and we didn't do it! Sure George Bush will find it a nice smooth ride, the Canadians will find it great over long distances doing SAR and the boys in Bosnia got their bus runs to R&R on time, but we bought an SH variant which needs lift, flexibilty and capablility. We elected to purchase a system with a fraction of the capability of other, cheaper, alternatives, and here we are trying to find a role for it to do.

I know as a Westland employee you will say it fitted the requirement and you are compliant with the spec, but back in the real world we have a job to do!

[Straight Up Again]

I have to agree with most comments here, as an ex-Wastelander, who worked on EH 101's of all variants, both in avionics and flight test, I think it is a very good aircraft. It has some problems (which aircraft doesn't?) and some design "features" that could be improved.

I also think that it may be very capable in some roles, but these are not the ones the RAF required. It is another example of "must buy British", which is great for the economy, but at the expense of our forces ability to do their jobs.

Even within the aircraft its self the "buy British" has compromised some systems. If I recall correctly (all corrections welcomed) the Electronic Instrument System (EIS) was from Smiths, which has 6 bulky CRTs and 3 Symbol Generators. There were better systems available (Canadian Marconi had 6 Sunlight Readable LCDs that could just hook straight up to the 1553 I believe), but we have to keep the money in the country. Politicians have to try to please everyone all the time. I would never make a good politician (probably too honest and not slimy enough).

Neil Porter - You left out the Civil variant, 1 of which was sold to the Tokyo Metropolitan Police. Its amazing what fun you can have with a nightsun, an external PA (with siren) and an area frequented by 'ladies of the night'.

I believe the Portuguese variant is in production at the moment, but that order was placed just after I left, though I was on the long range demo workup (they wanted a long range SAR capability, 400 Nm out, 0.5 hour hover and 400 Nm back. 120 Kts 2 eng cruise. 8.25 airborne bladder bursting hours).

The Cormorant is based on a mixture of HC3 and Civil (if memory is still good). There is no port side airstair/sliding door, both sides have bubble windows and SAR Tech seats at front of the cabin. Avionics is basically based on the Civil variant, but with 1553 stuff added.

I know the HC3 is regarded by many as unsuitable for the role, but what about it's performance and handling compared to other aircraft (yes I know all this stuff should be related to the mission, but I was after a general comment, maybe versus Puma, Sea King etc).

I haven't seen too many comments on what the Navy think of their version. Any seafaring chaps care to comment?

[John Eacott]

The history of the rear vision mirrors: early Sea King days, we were required to visually check the gear down & locked, which was not too easy when it involved getting a Mk2 or Mk3 helmet out through the pilot's sliding window:rolleyes: In fact, near impossible with the Mk2 :eek:

After a few years, miraculously the system responded, and the mirrors were fitted, along with lots of smart comments about rear view requirements. We never got the interface box for the heated gloves/socks kit, though :(

Next salty story, the introduction of wooly pullies after 846NAS dyed a job lot of bootneck green issue ones on Bulwark ;)

[Detrimento Sumus]

Whilst it would be improper to comment of the wonders of the SH Force (Chinook). As a Lynx driver who has worked alongside the RAF Merlins, my experience of the freaky squadron at Benson is that they all appear to be a professional bunch of guys flying what appears to be a great aircraft, ideally suited to those more specialist roles required on the battlefield that doesn't revolve around pure trash hauling.

I understand from a mate in Bosnia that the aircraft is doing great things and that during a recent ex the US troops asked for nothing else. Allegedly it was also underslinging humvees, so it can't be that cr@p given the temps and DAs in that part of the world.

[PUP]

Just a few points to throw into the fray on this one:

The winner of the "competition" for the supposed Wessex/Puma (Air Staff Target 403 or something like that) was finally decided in 1995, having run for well over 15 years. Like all MoD procurement programmes it was subject to a lot of political influence and although the MoD had fully expected the Chinook to win the competition, the political lobby resulted in the contract (about £1.1 Bn, including support) being awarded to WHL.

This wouldn't have been so bad if those involved in the programme up to that point had done a decent job of keeping the basic specification of the "SH Air Vehicle" up-to-date with the developments in SH in general during the 1980s and especially the 1990s (NVG, DAS, role eqpt, crew operating philosophies etc). However, the lead staff officer at the time of contract award had last served on an operational unit at least 10 years out of date. Those in the post before him were even less experienced indeed his predecessor was ex-SAR.

WHL inevitably did try to get as much help as possible to develop the product to make it well-suited for both the RAF and more importantly for follow-on sales around the world. UK military service has always been the best advertisement for their products. Despite their best attempts and the well-meaning of some individuals in the MoD, there were inevitably some rather odd interpretations of the specification.

Of course Boeing would have had less difficulty in interpreting the specification of the "SH Air Vehicle", they would have just wheeled out the CH47D in RAF HC 2 guise. That said, technically speaking, they would also have failed miserably to meet the spec.

It could also be argued that because Boeing had been so closely involved in sorting out the Chinook (HC 1 to HC 2, and HC 2a, and then the HC 3 farce) since it's introduction to service, that they had far better lines of communication with more "operationally-minded" individuals.

Fortunately, after contract award in 1995, sense prevailed and input from operators was made freely available in developing the aircraft as much as was possible, within the constraints of the specification and timescales. The Navy OEU/IFTU was very envious of this, having suffered so much themselves with a simlar sorry background to their version.

Regarding lift capability, the biggest influence on the Merlin's relatively poor disposable payload was that of having to comply with different standards of "Health and Safety at War", eg, crashworthiness, HUMs etc. Because Merlin was a new design it had to comply with new DefStans (Airworthiness-speak) to get through Military Airworthiness Release. Because the Chinook was deemed an "existing design" it didn't have to comply with these standards, indeed, HC 3 didn't have to, and if the MoD goes with the ICH that won't either.

You might not think that this had much influence, but by the time you've found enough nooks and crannies to store role equipment, crew kit, tool kits, EHUMs laptops that you can no longer store under the (heavier) crashworthy troop seats, and then beef them up to restrain it all to so many 'g' in different directions, this does add rather a lot of weight. As I recall, an equivalent version, not subject to the absurd MoD DefStans would have been about 800 Kg lighter!

In lift capability Kgs-per-£ terms, clearly Merlin was not good value for UK plc, but there's more to life than that. Would the UK military really want Chinooks only, with Lynx (or LBH/LUH or whatever) as the next biggest type (after the Puma eventually goes)?

One of the many lessons "identified" should be the importance of ongoing liaison between the UK military and potential suppliers to help them develop technologies and products both for MoD or export sales. In relation to formal procurement programmes, suppliers and the MoD must both have the right people in place from the earliest days of a programme. Can that be said today regarding SABR, LBH etc.

Sadly I expect not.

P.S. Dangermouse, give me a call! (I'm not looking for remuneration!):D

[Jackonicko]

Condolences to No.28 on the loss of one of their groundcrew on Monday in the tragic accident on the A423 as was. Prayers go out to his daughter, who survived the accident, and for his wife who died on the scene and for his young son who passed away in hospital yesterday.

Take care out there - even this bucolic idyll can be bloody dangerous.

[Big Unit Specialist]

Is it true that the EH 101 designation was as a result of a typo in that someone read EHI 01 (European Helicopter Industries 01) incorrectly. I think we should be told!;)

[dangermouse]

:(

Tahnx to Jacko for mentioning that, our thoughts are with the family

Many thanx to PUP for his well written and structured comments. As always we are between a rock and a hard place. The EH101 was never meant to be a heavy lifter (it's pretty obvious really, but in terms of volume moved it must be pretty good, Mass out rather than bulk out would seem a good compromise. There are things yet to go on the EH101 that the service was offered but turned the option down, it is a work in progress after all.

It's also nice to hear from an operator in theatre in defence of the aircraft, thanks.

As a final comment, reagrdless of what people wish they had, get a life and live with what you got (after all it wasnt OUR decision)

DM

[ase engineer]

-----------
Is it true that the EH 101 designation was as a result of a typo in that someone read EHI 01 (European Helicopter Industries 01) incorrectly. I think we should be told!
------------
Nope, it is an urban myth. It was always the EH 101 for the, rather shaky IMHO, reason that it sounded good. A bit like Boeing 707. An earlier "attempt" at a civil aircraft, based on a Lynx, was called the Westland 606 for similar reasons. (actually it was never built, but there was a mock up based on a put back together crashed airframe, in a rather dodgy brown-ish paint scheme)

[Jackonicko]

So no truth in the less well known 'urban legend' that a senior chap at Agusta took one look at the drawings and said:

"What the **** have you lot done to my lovely Agusta 101?"

http://helicopter.virtualave.net/a101.jpg

The Agusta A101 was, of course, a 1964 triple-engined assault helicopter design......

http://helicopter.virtualave.net/a101vistas.gif

[Neil Porter]

Compare my recent photo of a 28 Sqn Merlin at Abingdon on a training sortie - to Jackonicko's photo of the Agusta 101 & guess for yourselves - any similarities?

I have attached a link to the photo (off my Abingdon Fayre web / RAF Abingdon page!!)..

http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/abingdonfayre/raf/SAVE0047.JPG

Does Benson now have the full compliment of 22 (?) Merlins in situ as i know space was abit of an issue there ie: hangar space??
i thought the last one had been accepted before the last Stn Cmdr at Benson was posted on (Dec 02) - i think he oversaw the Merlins into RAF Service.
I read somewhere the RAF may get some more in the near future to bolster the SH force?? Is that just a rumour??

[Training Risky]

I've heard the one about the EHI 01 typo... I also heard another one that said it was supposed to be called the MARLIN, after a great sea-bird (to reflect its Royal Navy connections perhaps?)

Another typo maybe?

[PUP]

Training Risky,

A Merlin IS a sea bird (coastal, actually) whereas a Marlin is a fish, you turkey!

;)

[right chopper]

Sure there were plenty of alternate suggestions for the navy variant-the Sea Noff?

[Pontious]

Turkey?!

No,no,no. Training Risky is a crab!

[ase engineer]

--------------------
I've heard the one about the EHI 01 typo... I also heard another one that said it was supposed to be called the MARLIN, after a great sea-bird (to reflect its Royal Navy connections perhaps?)

Another typo maybe?
------------------------

Not another typo, another urban myth.

When the beast was being designed and a name required, the high and mighty of WHL decided that a competition be held among the employees for suggestions ( a bit like on Blue Peter when they get another puppy!)
The winner of that competition was "Merlin" for the RN aircraft and it was intended that when the utility variant came along (now the Merlin Mk3) it would be called "Griffin" (it might have been Griffon - can't remember exactly). Of course when it did come along, politics dictated that it was called the Merlin Mk3 rather than Griffin Mk.1 - either that or RR objected to the pinching of their best names.

[TURNBULL]

First of all a thanks to PUP for an excellent summary of the farce that led to the political decision to buy the Merlin. I believe it was AST 404, whether it was truely a Wessex/Puma replacement, I can't recall, but certainly the timing co-incided with the Wessex OSD.

Your point "Would the UK military really want Chinooks only" is of course valid, but would we want another 100' long, 3 engined helicopter with a payload a third of the Chinooks' together with another training and logistic support system, I believe, is. The US Army don't seem to have problem with 'only' having Chinooks, they have a complimentary aircraft in the Blackhawk, just as we have in the Puma, so what will replace the Puma?

Dangermouse retorts with the usual 'get a life and live with what you got' line, common to those who recognise that there is no defence!

Detrimento Sumus commented that 28 Sqn appear to be a professional bunch of guys, - they ARE professional and do well with what they've got. He goes on to say the the Merlin is "ideally suited to those more specialist roles required on the battlefield that doesn't revolve around pure trash hauling" - I'm sorry Sumus, could you remind me what those roles are? The Chinook has taken part in all major, and most minor, conflicts in the last 2 decades and 'trash hauling' was what was needed, I don'r recall any battlefield specialist roles it couldn't do.

[Jackonicko]

But shouldn't the sky be full of Chinook HC3s now?

Where are they?

Why aren't they?

C'mon. I'm a journo, I won't tell.......

[dmanton300]

But shouldn't the sky be full of Chinook HC3s now?

Where are they?

Why aren't they?

C'mon. I'm a journo, I won't tell.......

If we told you Boeing would have to kill you. . . .

[Jackonicko]

If you told me wouldn't lots of people want to kill Boeing?

[Neil Porter]

Q: I have noticed at Benson that one of the Merlins has a Flight Refuelling probe stuck on it - does anyone know what the tanker aircraft to refuel these is likely to be and are trials underway to conduct air-air refuelling??

My guess would be a Herkybird tanker, but cannot think if the RAF still have Herk tankers??

[TURNBULL]

DOH!!!!!

Who's going to be brave enough to tell him the answer to the tanker question and why the Marlins have to fly with the probe fitted?

[dangermouse]

We await the answer to the tanker question with interest as well....

As to the probe, what are you expecting anybody to say? I guess it's on there for training purposes. There are no limitations without it fitted or with it fitted.

We should all recognise that military procurement has always been a political issue, thats just a fact of modern life

DM

[FFP]

If the Merlin wants to get himself out to AARA 12 and around 250 kts we'll see what we can do for him :ok:

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Are you sure its a refuelling probe and not the Boscombe trials cab with the strange data collecting thingie sticking out the front?!

HPT

[Neil Porter]

I think my Question came out a little wrong re the probe etc - sorry chaps!!

It could have been the Boscombe Cab, just saw a glimpse of it recently....

[TURNBULL]

Neil,

Don't think you were mistaken, they probably fitted the expensive boom because they were about to go training with ?

DM,

Sorry, you are, of course, correct - 'military procurement has always been a political issue' - and because of that we peasants should be eternally grateful: Nimrod AEW, SA80, EFA, etc, etc.

[A D ENUFF]

Any truth in the story about the "Blue" version gaining weight whilst at sea aboard her Majesty's Grey Funnel Line. Something to do with the composites holding moisture. Or is it just a vicious rumour.

[Neil Porter]

Day off today, driving past Abingdon this morning to see one pf the regular 28 Sqn Merlins circuit bashing - noticed the Army on exercise on parts of the airfield & then noticed a gaggle of 20 odd squaddies marching straight across the Main runway in use (using RWY 18 at the time), they couldn't even be bothered to look up as to see where the Merlin was ( was about 10 seconds from landing on......!!!).... then those 20 odd squaddies went across the runway again!

The RAF weekend flyers often get problems like this ( dog walkers especially)..... oh and the odd learner driver.

To me, that is a serious Health & Safety issue - i would have thought being as the RAF still use the place then would be sensible to come to a mutual agreement with the Army there & re-instate some kind of control on the airfield??

We have been putting up signs to warn people to stay off the runways but i think people cannot read!!

Any 28Sqn ( & 33sqn) crews like to comment on this problem

[Neil Porter]

I heard today that a Merlin of 28sqn hit an " unlit mast or marker" near the load park last night - anyone know if the Heli is damaged badly(?) and crew are ok...........