View Full Version : Why did no airline do this before?

15th Aug 2001, 13:36
United to Launch U.S.-India (Direct) Flights
Read the article here - http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/010814/united_india.html

Its a 7500 mile trip and takes 14/15 hours on the 744.

Would the route fly up North from VIDP over the pole and then due south towards KORD or would there be some other route, e.g., overNorthern Europe then the usual NATS way?

Any knowledgable sources?

15th Aug 2001, 14:00

The shortest route is over the pole, probably just to the North Atlantic side of it. There would be no need to use the NATs.


Notso Fantastic
15th Aug 2001, 15:21
Looking at my globe and measuring with a piece of string, it looks like the route will be over Greenland, north of Norway, past Moscow and down over Afganistan- nothing unusual. It looks approximately similar or slightly less than BA's LHR-Singapore route, the effective max range for a 400 without restricting payload much and allowing for a headwind on the return sector.

15th Aug 2001, 23:43
not sure as i don't have the charts in front of me but, would that route not fly directly through the compass unreliable zone? is this not a factor with gps/sat nav/acars etc ? just asking as i never get to do that kind'a stuff ?

[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: BOEINGBOY1 ]

The Skylord
16th Aug 2001, 00:02
Boeingboy1 - what on earth has ACARS got to do with it ?

16th Aug 2001, 05:07
GPS works fine up there! If you forget to flip the Heading Reference switch from Magnetic to True, the airplane (744) will do it for you!

Last time I did it, ACARS and HF worked fine!

16th Aug 2001, 22:12
Does anybody know about payload restrictions on DEL-ORD? 11:15am dep with mean summer temps @ 40+C around noon? :confused:
10/28 is 9300ft, 09/27 9500ft?

Any 744 drivers?

bizjet pilot
17th Aug 2001, 04:50
If you're in HF range (and if you're in the solar system, you are) then it's technically possible to get HF based data link. If you have the right boxes in the ship, you'll get the messages on the little ACARS/AFIS whatever screen you usually get such messages on. Knowwhatahmean?

17th Aug 2001, 07:51
OK, and after sitting on an airplane 15 hours you will not know where you've been and it wouldn't matter where you get off, because you wouldn't be functional for the next two days anyway. :confused:

17th Aug 2001, 08:37

Last I checked (bored over the Pacific several months ago), the 744 with GE CF6-80C2B5F engines can take off at max GTOW (398.9 Tonnes) at 40 deg C at any airport normally served by the 744 (I believe Quito was an exception, but it never gets to 40 deg there). Other engines may impose restrictions.

17th Aug 2001, 10:20
TVA164 and Flight plan man,
Have a look at http://gc.kls2.com it gives great circle route depictions and distances.
(Intrigueing site). ORD-DEL is 6516nm and tracks over the east coast of Hudsons Bay, across Northern Baffin Island, Northern Greenland and just east of Novaya Zemlaya (sp) and to DEL.

Lurk R
17th Aug 2001, 10:46
Great Circle Map (http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=VIDP-KORD&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=mi&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STY LE=)

[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Lurk R ]

17th Aug 2001, 13:40
Here's the image - same thing as the URL above.


17th Aug 2001, 21:24
Just a couple of comments:

UA's -400s use the P&W 4056 engines

UA uses satelite based datalink - not HF

And yes, it is a very loooong flight...

Hung start
17th Aug 2001, 23:28

Nice link. But who´s correct about the distance? You say 7483nm, Inuendo says 6516nm.
That´s a hell of a difference.

17th Aug 2001, 23:52
I think the site defaults to statute miles. I selected NM when I selected the two airports. The image depicted does not say NM.

17th Aug 2001, 23:56
Actually, thanks go to Innuendo and LurkR for the links.

Innuendo you are spot on here. It defaults to statute miles and if you select nautical miles, the number is about 6503 as you reported earlier. Also, mind you it will get longer once the route is recalculated using airways - as such it seems the route would take the aircraft through a lot of "restricted" airspace so deviations are bound to be factored in. An example would be while overflying the Hindukush region - expect a lot of zig-zag headings there. Russia might prove similarly long. Any more ideas here?

A follow on question - without poring through endless charts, is there anyway to map the route using airways? Any pilots or flight ops personnel familiar with the regions the flight path would take?


[edited to acknowledge Innuendo's finding]

[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: TVA164 ]

18th Aug 2001, 00:20
Same route, topo view, and distance in NM.


18th Aug 2001, 09:12
Canada 3000 are apparently planning YYZ and YVR to Delhi with an A-340.
Great circle from yvr is 6040nm, yyz 6309nm.
YVR to HKG is 5550 give or take and a full load of 284 pax meant max t/o weight of 275k using Macao as an alternate so I would guess that full payload may not be available. The Great Circle site gives EWR to HKG as around 7000 nm which Continental and United were/are doing so obviously the DEL route is feasable. Interesting that you can do ORD and YYZ using 180 mins etops according to the chart. I have no experience of engine out terrain clearance routings in the area of the Himalayas and I wonder if this would impact on the DEL outbound routings? Some body here must know.

19th Aug 2001, 03:16
I think this route is pretty interesting because of these:-

1. It flies almost right over the north pole (heading would change from the 350s to 010s as you see it (probably, I'm only guesstimating)
2. It slices down the middle of Russia direct towards the Himalayan range, again, interesting terrain...

Any more?

19th Aug 2001, 04:05
What is all this noise about? We have been flying across the pole since the days of Astro, Loran and Doppler. Yes that was before INS, before IRS and before GPS. We've been flying into India from the north from the moment we could cross the mountains between Samarkand and Dushanbe over Kabul to Lahore. Even the distance is not extreme anymore since the advent of the 744 well over ten years ago.

So what is new? :confused: