China Airlines/China Airlines F/O, (update)-Merged Twice!.

[Jim Morehead]

For anyone looking for a place to work, I thought you might like some updated information on China Airlines. I was at a fleet meeting yesterday and saw a few people in various departments who encouraged me to make it known that China Airlines needs pilots primarily 744 First Officers and Cruise Captains. They'll need A330 people in 2004 when deliveries start.

Now before some of my friends and best critics jump up and down <bg>, I don't win a toaster or a blender for anybody that comes here!!! Many of us like CAL and accept it and obviously there are some unhappy people too. Just like any airline. But I think that most of us here would like good people to come here to Taipei and start with CAL. If you get people here that will make it better,it will get better.

This is all public information really,but CAL is getting 3 more airplanes in 2003, (doing this from memory),9 in 2004, 8 in 2005, and 2 in 2006. Only 2 747F (rope starts) are being phased out shortly. There are a combination of 747-400 Freighters, 747-400 Pax airplanes, 12 A330s starting June,2004,one A340 and a 737-800 next month.

They are interviewing a number of Singapore guys in the next month and then interviews begin again with others that I have talked to. It appears they are booking interviews about 2-3 months out. The process seems to take 4 days plus travel time. The physical is extensive compared to other countries and companies.

The next development is that apparently a hurdle has been removed to allow people to upgrade to Captain/Command based on performance and proficiency rather than some fixed period of time. I remember there were a few people who didn't want to start as F/O or Cruise Captain. But even if you do and a lot of my friends did, there is no hurdle or restriction to upgrading now once you and CAL think you are ready. To me,this is a major step and improvement.

I saw from the website of www.china-airlines.com that CAL has one of the world's youngest fleets of 5.9 years and that will go lower when the 2 old Freighters are parked.

China may also change their basing policy in the near future. It is not official and being actively discussed. Right now, only Captains are based outside of Taiwan. I have noticed that the pay is better than many places in the world.It is not back to where it was,but most airlines aren't either. Also in income tax is lower than many places in the world. One thing I found interesting is that there is a housing allowance and transportation costs can be zero. They pick one up in a small bus and then take you to the major international airport from the headquarters in downtown Taipei. Of course, you could be brave enough to try a motorscooter in TPE but this is a dangerous sport. All I have is a bus card for my own travel.

Anyway, I thought anybody looking for a job might like to know of these developments.

I noted recently that my old Airline in the U.S. continues to lose money at record rates and has continued to furlough pilots. There are over 100 being furloughed in December and there appears to be no end in sight.

JIM

[Hachiouji-shi]

Dear Jim,

Thank you. Do you know how long it can take for them to post a reply to an application? I think when there is a sound of silence after an application is made, it feels rather scary.

[Jim Morehead]

I would not worry too much. They are booked ahead for a few months and I know there are a lot of Singapore guys interested.

So give it a few weeks or so.

[74world]

Hi Jim,

As you know couple of agencies down south are looking for 400 FOs for your company, the salary is US $4.400/month, my question is: How far below the poverty line would they be, if they accept this sort of salary in Taipei?????

Looking forward to your reply.......cheers....:p

[777Efoh]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the wonderful update.

Regards.

[typhoonpilot]

74world:

I know you asked this question of Jim, but I'll answer. How far below the poverty level would someone be living in Taipei on USD 4400 per month. I have many good friends and relatives living in Taiwan who only make USD 800 per month. So the answer is it depends on how you want to live. To get a decent apartment in a decent section of Taipei would cost about USD 1000 to USD 1500 per month. I say decent, meaning decent by western standards. Eating could only cost about 100 NTD per meal if you and your spouse could live on street food ( which is quite good and very safe ). You wouldn't need a car so transportation is by taxi, bus, and MRT which is very affordable. Health Insurance is dirt cheap compared to the States.


You could live very well in Taipei for that kind of money. You may not be able to save a whole lot, but it wouldn't be a bad life.

Typhoopilot

[Jim Morehead]

Typhoopilot answered it quite well and with authority and facts. I have not actually seen the F/O numbers because they just don't post them on the war nor in the Taiwan news. But I don't think your figures are too far off. Cruise Captains make more and Captains make even more.

I should also reiterate that CAL is short of pilots and those people that talk to me (they often seek me out) tell me that they continue to need good good qualified pilots relatively quickly. And by quickly, I mean in the next 6 months which is "quickly" by airline hiring standards.

We just got schedules for October today. This is only my second airline and I am not sued to getting "next month's" schedule this late in the month,but I have learned that the last week of the month is more the world's norm than in my previous life. I have about 88 hours which is my next point.

The salaries that the other gentleman posted are likely for 70 hours which is the minimum pay. Many fleets here are in the 80s and 90s on hours. There is overtime pay, a housing allowance, a per diem for food, transportation which is included at no cost to the pilot, and even a few dollars for Dragon Boat Festival and Chinese New Year. (I wouldn't come here just for the Dragon Boat Pay!)


On the price of meals, $100 NT is almost $3 USD and that will get you through a local restaurant many of which are fine.

My Aussie friends here are good at hunting down bargains and finding good restaurants and I can tell you that about a meal costs you about $2.50 US at the bottom (if you order water) to about $30 USD for a fancy major restaurant. If you drink a couple of beers and eat moderately, it will be about $10-12 USD and that is more common.

I can tell you that my per diem about covers my food for the month and it is paid for over 20 days per month whether working or not.

Another plus to CAL is that I have had the exact 8+ days off per month that I asked for every month and received vacation days when I wanted them. At my previous carrier, it was a crap shoot and seniority ruled ( I was junior and sometimes senior from time to time). Sometimes you won, and sometimes you lost.
I posted most of the changes or proposed changes in the posting yesterday,so very little is changed since yesterday.

I did see some numbers today and CAL does need pilots. So if you want the job, I think any one should apply. Considering the worldwide market today, I'll bet less than 25% of the airlines are hiring and most are furloughing or on the edge of bankruptcy. CAL and a few others are doing most of the hiring.

Oh, and comparing CAL pay to what I saw on another region of the world's thread, CAL is FAR BETTER.

I want to dispel the rumor that we live in mud huts and carry spear guns!

My first choice would be to be at home in Florida on a beach feeding seagulls,but I have to earn money to do that! <bfg>

[space driver]

Hi,
Nice to hear details like these about CAL. I applied to CAL about a month back for A300-600 Capt's post but I am yet to hear from them. I am rated and meet their requirements but it seems they don't need pilots for A300-600. Does anyone know whats happening on A300-600?

[nudger]

*

[Boxboy747]

Anyone wonder why old Jimbo here is the only one with anything good to say about CAL?

How is it that a guy who has been in CAL for such a short period of time and is in the left seat has such a good understanding of how it is for many of us who have been here much longer?

Jim your doing a great job recruiting for this company but I feel your also not giving the whole picture. Why not hear from someone else on this forum about what it's really like at CAL? How about JOB security? How about management and the crews you'll be working with? How many guys have been fired in the last 18 months? How about the operation or the standard or the hotels or??? How about something other than it's a paycheck in a tough market?

And maybe a FOs perspective would be usefull as this is the position they are most short of and the position they are haveing the most trouble retaining guys.

[Goofyfoot]

Boxboy 747, you seem to have another perspective on Cal which, I am sure, will be of great interest to many others including myself, so how about it.

[etops777]

anyone interested in CAL, drop me a PM

i will post more about CAL in a few more days.. stay tuned

[126.9]

I filled out the marathon application form around 7 months ago... no response. :confused: Anyone have any ideas?

[southernmtn]

1269
If you would tell us some thing about yourself like your hours experience (p1,p2,pic) against aircraft type, some of us might be able to give you some advice about why you were not called for selection, and further advice on how you may be able to improve your appeal to the airlines.

[126.9]

Sure: 10,000 hours / 3500 heavy jet / 1000 heavy jet P1 / JAR-FCL / Currently flying ATR42/72 as TRI..?

Regards

[Jim Morehead]

Space Driver and anyone else that has applied:

I would call or write the office with an update. Like any airline hiring office, things change and applications can sit around.

To the facts, CAL gets A330s next year and the "plan" is to transition the AB600 guys to the Aibrus 330. Obviously people that have flown Airbusses would be natural to any airbus products. At least that is what my Aussie former 320 guys tell me.

CAL needs 747-400 people mostly. I think there are only 4 US Operators and that is why there is not a great surplus of people with experience on this airplane with the exception of the Singapore guys ,some of which are currently interviewing. This will go on for a while.

CAL will continue to get 744PAX and 744F airplanes. I just flew the latest new freighter yesterday from ANC to TPE and it is a neat clean airplane. And it does very well at 44,000' in the block!
(yes we were light returning to TPE as is always the case).

But like any airline, there is turnover, retirements, and firings. So CAL will be hiring for a while and mostly in 744s. But there is another 737-800 coming and people do leave. More on that later.

NOW TO THE BOXGUY747

I don't know who you are. To you and the readers, most anything you write will not get my "goat" nor bother me. But I will tell you that most people leave public forums because they get sick of being beat up.

My goal now and has always been is to help anybody who wants to work as a pilot specifically at China Airlines to find a job. I would prefer to have good people at CAL rather than flying with the dregs of aviation. I personally would like to see good people and high quality people come to China.

That doesn't infer that many are not already here like that because they are. Some of the best people in the world do work here and that includes many of the world's major airlines. In fact, the two guys I flew with for the last 5 days were better than my former carrier if we look at averages.

CAL uses a different system than UAL did on the 400. UAL had only one Captain and all type rated First Officers. The flying guy could be next week's "bunkie" as they were called.

At CAL, it is not uncommon to have two Captains, a cruise Captain and some number of F/Os.

Prior to CAL, I had only worked for one employer my entire life. It was not exactly a wonderful model career. (I'll save that for another time). But 21 years to make Captain was hardly the industry/world's average.

United has some labor troubles <bfg> in 2000 and then 9/11 came. The U.S. airline industry was headed downhill since then. I find it interesting also that only two airlines lost employees and airplanes on 9/11 and mine was one of them. In fact, I lost one of my friends on one of the UAL flights on 9/11. It was a sad day attending his funeral. But I digress.

I cite this only because I had no intention to leave my employer five years early had it not been for the above and the bankruptcy. It was one of the biggest decisions I ever made.

That leads to CAL.

Two years ago, I had barely heard of them. 12 months ago was the first time was the first time I had ever ever thought about looking for a job since I was 21. So I wished somebody could have been of assistance in the last year and I hope to be.

This is a good time for people looking for a job. PERIOD!

Now to BOXBOY's apparent complaint to which I will not dodge. That is not my nature.

Do I have good things to say about CAl? Actaully YES. Who knows? I may not survive my first year. I have no idea. But I do know that the people that surround me have been excellent. There is the usual airline "goat rope" where many things don't get communicated and you can't find out WHY something is happening. And YES, the language problem does add to this dillemma.

I have new friends from many countries and I have new friends in other departments at CAL. It's a growing company in an area where of the world that is generally warm,rains sometimes, and has earthquakes.

But right now, there are not many jobs that pay what CAL pays in the world that is growing and not furloughing pilots. And there are other areas of the world that I am GLAD that I don't have to go to simply to find an aviation job. I think I would rather not fly rather than go to some of these places. There are plenty of lower paying jobs in my own country and in fact, I often get job offers. The truth is I am not currently interested.

So for BOXBOY or anybody else, you either accept where the job is or head for a different occupation. Bitching to me (and us) isn't going to solve anything!

Now BOXBOY sounds to this guy that he is NOT very happy, angry that I am a Captain (gee, do I deserve this or should I come back when I get a little more experience???), or that he is a COpilot. It sounds like all three to tell you the truth.

Many of my friends are copilots (and a hell of a lot more gracious than BOXBOY) . I think I remember many eyars as a flight engineer and as a copilot. I think I remember the long raod to being Captain, getting furloughed, getting bumped back to F/E and all the fun things that go with an airline aviation career.

So I am not sure what the big complaint that BOXBOY pontificates over.

So now the most humourous comment is how I have such a "good understanding". Since I have only been at CAL since May 5th (and received one month off without pay during SARs like most of my other CAL friends to save the Company money((it was not voluntary)), I have to agree that I probably have less time than BOXBOY. But at least I am not afraid to put my name on my opinion!

I am not sure what" understanding" BOXBOY wants me to have. The facts are you bring your credentials to the party and someone either hires you or they don't. You either take the job offer or you don't. It's quite simple. No one at CAL is under any compulsion to stay here. I certainly am not. In fact, they just reduced the time of notice to resign to 10 days. I hardly think that anybody has a gun to their head to stay here or anywhere.

I do it because I like it. I like the people and I do like receiving a paycheck. I would like to continue paying a house mortgage and keep my airplane.

And for BOXBOY, if I am doing such a fine job at recruiting, then maybe I should get my own office, some stock options, a secretary, and view of downtown TPE(other than from the crew room) and maybe they'll double my pay. I am surprised that Larry King has not called me for a one hour special some night. Wait, I hear the phone ringing. Could it be him?

So how about job security? Easy answer. There is very little. I can leave CAL on short notice and they can fire or lay off pilot employees on 30 days notice. You keep flying and they keep sending the check. If not then leave and see another line of work or employer. Simple.

How's the hotel? Well, it is your basic 2+ star hotel close to the airline's headquarters. It is in one of most prestigeous areas of town. CAL has an expat crew lounge. I'll see some of you at 6 which is a daily tradition with most of us.

How about the crews and management? Well, when in TPE, I am to the headquarters for a few hours when I have nothing better to do and to check mail. I also get paid. A wonderful rewarding experience. How many have been fired in the last 18 months? Well, I heard some 65 or more. Most because of sim failures and the inability to use CLR/CRM. That's why a lot of expats ARE here. As for the pilots I have flown with since I have been here, there is nobody that I have had a problem with.

I would like to hear ANYBODY's viewpoint here whether they agree or disagree with me. I can only speak for myself.

And IF you are a F/O a CAL, then why aren't you the next candidate for Captain? Don't want it? Can't get it?

Gee, at a meeting last week attended by the Senior VP and 100 of the CAL pilots), they announced there were no restrictions to upgrade except for ability. There is no longer any mandatory wait nor hours.

I have another fleet meeting on the 8th. so maybe I can find out some more information.

But in the meantime, I'll keep doing what I enjoy in a place that has thus far been a nice place to work. I am going out for my daily 5 mile walk around Taipei. It sure beats a lot of places that I COULD be in the world. Time for the afternoon pub crawl and the gathering later tonight.

I hope that this has been as meaningful for you to read as it was for me to write. Maybe some people ought to go get a life.

JIM

[Hachiouji-shi]

Hi Jim,

Please check your Private Messages


Thanks.

[126.9]

Well said mate! :ok:

Now; can you help me get a job there...? :D

[flyer75]

Dear Jim morhead,
I have sent CVS to all China Airlines..the EAST, the WEST ,the SOUTH..for a F/O position.
However,I believe I have some better chance to apply as a S/O (anything to keep me up there),should I send another set of CVs?

Thank you,

Flyer75

I forgot..I have a full JAA and FAA ATPL(A).2600 multi turbine time(above 5t7).

Cheers:ok:

Flyer75

[lr25ec]

Please check your PMs

Thanks!

LR25ec

[Jim Morehead]

Will check PMs.

I would reapply to the Personnel office. Things do change and I think some answers may be forthcoming. There was talk of some new bases in some fleets are I've run into a number of new people in the crew room and walking around the various offices at the crew center in downtown Taipei where CAL has the SIMs, training departments, and pilot and cabin crew facilities.


As for anybody's personal chances of getting hired and getting an interview, I don't think they will allow any of us to find out how a specific person is progressing (Or not). I think it is a privacy thing.

I am heading for ANC again tonight for a few days. Not looking forward to rain and cold weather. Taipei's hot summer is cooling off and the days get up to about 28C/82F. The last few days have been beautiful.

And for the chronic complainers,I/we are eagerly awaiting your information about how bad the world is. Seems like some people are not very happy in anything they do.

JIM

[msowsun]

China Airlines has this chart on their career page........

EXPATRIATE FIRST OFFICERS Qualification
Age Total flying hours
34 1,500
35 2,000
36 2,500
37 3,000
38 3,500
39 4,000
40 4,500
41 5,000
42 5,500

I am 47 years old with 15,000 hours (4000 jet) (1600 B767 F/O)

Does this mean that I would not be considered????

Thanks,

Mike Sowsun

[126.9]

Is there anyway an applicant could find out how their application is progressing? I just checked and my last application (to which I've not had a reply) went in on the 17th of January 2003. I've just completed the forms again (and kept a copy this time) and will mail them on monday. You reckon I should follow it up or what's the ettiquette there? :ok:

[Jim Morehead]

Greetings from cold rainy Anchorage.

The qualifications posted are not necessarily requirements as I understand it. Most people exceed them in one category or another. There are people hired without a specific type rating because they had experience in other airplanes or check airmen capabilities.
A lot of recent hires had thousands of hours in 737s and 146s. CAL operates the 737-800 and no 146s. Even some 737 Captains ended up on the 744 as Captain or F/Os. So I would not hestitate to apply and follow up on my application.

I am not sure there is a protocol. I think most personnel offices want to see interest without overwhelming them. More hours, a new ratings, a change of address,etc. would be a good way to make sure they know you are interested.

[AlfaMike]

I can’t find the China Airlines careers web site, I wonder if anyone will be able to provide the link...:confused:

Is there any other way to apply for a job with China Airlines?

Thanks for the info.

:ok:

[Goofyfoot]

www.china-airlines.com

[AlfaMike]

Career link not displayed.

Thanks for the info Goofyfoot however it seems that the career link is not displayed there anymore. Maybe the link has been removed or they are not accepting any more applicants at this time. :{
Thanks anyway.

[flyingcrazy]

AlfaMike..

It's still there, mate.

Here's the link:
http://www.china-airlines.com/en/about/about_career.htm

Cheers, :ok:

FC

[AlfaMike]

Got it !! Thank you FC...:ok:

[etops777]

cal new breed,

moral at cal is at a rock bottom low! believe me i know what i am talking about!

the expat maybe getting a pay increase but, not for the local pilots! there is a huge pay difference between the expat and the local which the expat are paid lots lots more than the local pilots.

DFO Chou is destroying CAL's moral ever since he joined the company.

having been there for 6 years, i know a lot more about cal than you and jim can imagine.

[Jim Morehead]

ETOPS777 or anybody...I am not the spokesman for China Airlines or anybody except myself. I am a line pilot who enjoys China Airlines and the job I currently hold.

I don't ask anybody about personal questions of what they make nor how they view their jobs.

All of us who take the employment here and other places do so voluntarily,so I don't understand what the problem is that certain people face. No local I have flown with has been less than happy and they don't spend hours complaining about the things that some seem to complain about in this thread.

Some new people started in a pilot class a few weeks ago and some others started yesterday. I wish them and you all sucess in what you do.

For this portion of my life, it has been nice and I am enjoying it.

I'll promise you that if I find that I am not being treated fairly or honestly, you'll be the first to know!

There is plenty of flying here and I head to North America twice in the next in the next 7 days. On one of the trips I fly with two newly hired expats,so we have plenty of time so talk over the world's problems.

And while I am thinking of it, I can tell you that I have enjoyed the locals I have flown with also and I think them with me. While language sometimes is better or worse with some, we talk about everything from world politics, Mainland China politics, to George Bush , to the American Economy, and many things that might surprise you.

[Galland]

...kinda futile to ask....but would almost 2000 hrs of piston time be enough to get in ?

Age 28

FAA ATP
JAR CPL/IR frozen ATPL

:confused:

[b777pilot]

hi,

may i ask a blunt question? how much are you guys getting at CAL? nett?

[brazilian]

Hi people,
I'd like to know what are the real chances for a experienced commercial pilot, with none type rating, has an interview with China Airlines? Please, send me informations about that......

[Medwin]

They are looking for experienced english speaking commercial pilots to babysit their local pilots. I'm sure you're well qualified.

[Fbwdude]

Hi Brazilian,
You should give it a try.
Log on CA site and fill out tha application, I think you may be succesfull.
Good luck to you.
Fbwdude.

[brazilian]

thanks people.....

[Patty O'Furniture]

What is the standard pay for such an airline as this? Does it vary according to what a/c you are assigned to? some very nice destinations there. you'd think it would be a reasonable rig!
what is it really like?! :p

[Robssupra]

3 YEAR CONTRACT

BASE: ( TPE )

MONTHLY REMUNERATION: ( gross/monthly paid off shore based on 70 flying hours/month, overtime payable monthly )

A/C TYPE AFTER CHECKOUT LINE TRAINING GROUND SCHOOL

B747-400 US$5200 US$4700 US$4100
A340 5200 4700 4100
AB6 3700 3200 2800
B737-800 3700 3200 2800


COMPLETION BONUS: US$5000 PAYABLE AFTER COMPLETION OF 3 YEARS OF SERVICE.

SICK LEAVE: 5 DAYS/ANNUM

SALARY REVIEW: CPI REVIEW EVERY DECEMBER

ACCOMODATION: HOUSING ALLOWANCE OF US$1000/MONTH

DAYS FREE OF DUTY: A MINIMUM OF 8 CONSECUTIVE DAYS OFF PER MONTH

ANNUAL LEAVE: 24 DAYS PER ANNUM ACCRUED AT 2 DAYS A MONTH AFTER THE 4th MONTH.

I HOPE THIS WILL HELP A LITTLE.:

[brazilian]

Thanks people....but what are the ral chances for a no type rating commercial pilot having the chance to get a job with CAL?

[Kaptin M]

The ONLY way you're ever going to find that out, is to apply to CAL brazilian - or do you want someone to do THAT for you?

You've been given all the information you can expect - the rest is up to YOU!

[fullforward]

dear fellow, try to improve your English, as theirs in China is worst than yours!...:confused:

[Pin Head]

Whats the bond?

[cheklapsap]

Fullforward, really!

One really shouldn't throw stones. "theirs in China is

worse than yours" 'Dear Fellow', indeed!

By the way, China Airlines is a Taiwanese carrier based in Taipei, not in China.

Cls

[International Trader]

I know a young fellow who left here after the first year of a three year bond.
The total claimed by the company was nearly twice the original bond.
What's the bond? Whatever they like.
To give you an idea of what it is like.
They keep employing but the total numbers keep reducing because more are leaving than they can employ.
Can you gues why?

Come here as a captain and the salary is OK but, you have to be able to put up with them.

Don't go as an F/O
Don't go as an F/O
Don't go as an F/O

[Robssupra]

Some of you guys have had it too easy, I suppose. You can not imagine how bad things can be until you spend a week in the company I am serving my time with. No mater how bad you may think that China Airlines is, there is always a place that is that much worse, out there. Sadly I had to live through this for the last three years. Happy flying to all ...

Just my opinion.

[MinimaNoContact]

Rob, who is so bad? and why? Let us know so we can steer clear of the place.

[assymetric]

Does anyone have a contact name and number to follow up on a application.

[Robssupra]

I am working for a Part 135 on demand company, on Lear Jets, out of Florida. I am really thankfull for the opportunity that I was given, specially just after 9/11, but after three years, having to lower my standards every day I get to fly one of these planes, If I spend any more time here, I will not have any standard left that I can talk about in public. And standards are not the most important thing that any body has to worry about in this type of companies. Small fact ( you know that thing called Minimum Equipment List, dont bother looking up, your pen will run out of ink by the time you are done writing up things ). Just look at it this way, you never know how bad things can get until one day you find yourself re-living a nightmare, that you created yourself, and you can not see going away any time soon.

See you airborne.

[Le Pilot]

Robssupra

From Australia or is that a misprint?
If you have the right to work in OZ then quit your "ell on earth" Job and apply for something downunder!

At least be prepared to leave the states.

Anyway an FO posn with CAL might be a good move for you.

Good Luck

[BritishGuy]

I have approx. 750hrs (100 Multi - piston) is it even worth my while applying?

[Robssupra]

Le Pilot, I thank you for your advice mate. By the way no misprint there, proud to be an Ausie. The only reason I am here in the states is to FLY.
I am working on getting something back home - no luck so far.
I also have an application with CAL, waiting on an interview date.

By the way, has anybody received an invitation from CAL for an interview recently?

Thanks and Good Luck to you all.

[AQFlyer]

Hey BritishGuy, in regards to whether it is worth your while to apply to CAL, it's certainly worth a try. You never know. On a more negative note...I am currently flying a 737NG for a US carrier and I have about 4500 hours TT, 2500 in 737NG's and a 737 type and I can't seem to get an interview. Maybe it's fate telling me not to go! Maybe they just don't like Americans. :-)

[The Greaser]

Hi all,

I have just obtained an interview in mid-May with CAL. I have 3200 TT, 1700 B737. Which aircraft would I likely be flying if offered a position? Also are the negative posts on this forum regarding FO positions at CAL a fair reflection or just the normal cynical rubbish that pilot's spout? Any further info on CAL and life in TPE would be gratefully appreciated.

Best Regards

[Deske1]

If you can accept to be tied in the RHS and local guys getting upgraded with 4000 hrs TT than you will have not bad life.

Getting onto the B747 is 95% sure as a lot of people left CAL and they are short of F/Os on this type.As I have heard some 40-50 new F/Os are needed for B747 in this year.

[The Greaser]

Thanks Deske1, much appreciated.

[goodwill]

I think my experiences are not enough. but give me some comments about B737 F/O positions in CAL, sir!
TT1500, non ATPL, B737NG rating with 200hour in the airline.
Can I apply for B737NG F/O?
Thank you, Sir!

[Deske1]

No one will go to the 737-800.The girls told me in the recruitment office,that 40-50 F/Os to the 747-400 and about 20 F/Os to the A340.

If you flew Boeings before,747 is the way,if you are from any Airbus than A340.

Some type-rated A300 crews also needed.CAL now opens ELO programs for LAX,YVR and FRA,it will make the life easier.

[AAIGUY]

Can anyone report how long the process takes? I have my stuff in. I fly the 747 already, but the ELO in YVR has me pretty excited and I can't wait to jump ship.

[The Greaser]

Well I got invited to interview about 3 working days after my application was sent in. That was 2 weeks ago and they offered me 4 different weeks to attend, from the end of April to the end of May.

[flyboy168]

Sorry for being ignorant, but what is an "ELO"?

[Deske1]

End Of Line.
You have 8 days of Home Leave in row per month plus you can add 2 or 4 days of annual leave to it.
You start your schedule at a certain destination(i.e. LAX,YVR,MIA or FRA) and finish your duty at the same place.

Its not wonder they called you so fast,as a lot of people are leaving.

[Pin Head]

Anybody know what the bond is?

[Robssupra]

Hope I am not wrong here.

Three year contract.

B744 or A343 - $US20000
B738 or A300 - $US25000

Enjoy.

[Cleared ILS approach]

Hi All,

I was just wondering if anybody could give some infos about the problem for the validation of the licence. I read on the forum in another subject that the taiwanese licence is not valid anywhere else due to the fact that they are not ICAO. If I'm right, you have to convert your JAR licence into a local licence and then the local CAA will endorse your 340/744 rating on your taiwanese licence. But if you leave and go back to a JAR country, your local CAA will not put your type rating on your licence.

Knowing the fact that there is almost no chance to get upgraded and that expats are leaving because of that, could anybody give some feedback about the problems with the licence? Do you think that airlines operating the aircraft types concerned will not look at if you apply for them ?(let's say Virgin, Monarch or BA for exemple). I think that if they hire you you will anyway need some home training to learn their SOP's and you will have to pass an OPC/LPC with a JAR examiner. Would this not resolve the problem about licence validation? Maybe I'm dreaming to much !!

Last question, do you think that CA is a good place to go for some years to get some LH experience and also get a very valuable TR before coming back in Europe. Single, no kids.

Thanks for your help guys.

Cheers

[IBTheseus]

If your concern is with the Taiwan ATPL, then I don't see any problem? There are no flying schools in Taiwan, so no matter what you will be getting your ATPL from some other country.

As for the endorsement, other countries will accept the experience, but not normally the endorsement.

Options
1) do a sim check in your country to put on your ATPL.
2) Go through the USA licence system, then your local authority more than likely will accept the endorsement through the FAA
3) don't worry about it:)

[Jim Morehead]

DESKE.....I know some think CAL is the end of the line.....but I think it stands for
EXTENDED LAY OVER
It was their way to build bases where people could live and cut the company's costs. The benefit to the pilots were to allow them to be home more and to be in Taiwan less.
I know they did start a few places and I expect that they moved it to F/Os. Previously it was just Captains that they built bases outside of TPE for.

[Deske1]

Sure.........and I got my desired FRA now.......at least they promised for May!
This is more than nothing

[cajun30]

The FAA does recognize the R.O.C. (Republic of China) type, they add an endorsement to your ATPL. I called airman certification in Oklahoma City to verify this one.

[Jim Morehead]

CAJUN30
Where are you in Louisiana? So what you be doin' there?
Just drove through I-10 with a car and went to school up at La. Tech.

On the OKC/FAA , exactly what it that you did? You can go to the FAA.GOV web site and see all of your ratings. In what way, does the US recognize or even KNOW ABOUT my Taiwan rating? Are you saying that if all I had was the Taiwan ATPL that I could get a US FAA license added?

Actually Taiwan trains for circling approaches and the US does not at least on the 747-400. That is why most US guys have a restriction that mandates VFR minimums for circling in big jets like the 747-400.

[Snowyman]

What is the average nett pay/month for an expat. FO at CAL? How come nobody wants to give any details:suspect:

[Jim Morehead]

SNOWYMAN...I see my last posting was in October of 2003 in the subject, so 18 months have gone by. A lot happened in 18 months in my life.

To answer your question, I recall the Captain pay to be between 8K and 10K per month. It changed because of the hours. they kept claiming they had a pilot shortage, yet would schedule us for 65 or 70 hours with days sitting around TPE doing nothing. Most people want to work more.

In terms of updating my answer, I only would say I encountered less than three pricks at CAL. One was the 744 Chief Pilot and totally unbearable. Even his own colleagues agreed. But I understand he is now a line pilot and possible instructor. you can't avoid any airline for one jerk. But I'd never take anything from this guy including a free beer.

One other guy was always pissed off at the world and ex-pats.

I think there might have been a few bad attitudes from a few (less than 5) locals, but I can say that I found the vast majority to be great to work with.

The biggest issues are being scheduled to a high number to make more money as long as you were going to eat up 80% of every month away from home. They should have rescheduled more American to America, More Canadians to Canada, more Aussies to Australia,.etc. when ever possible.

They finally did go to an ELO program I understand and I think it may have been extended to F/Os. It would ahve been nice to fly MIA-ANC-MIA and stay in one's region and only go to TPE every three months.

Actually I did enjoy TPE and enjoyed the hotel people, most of the crew schedulers and workers, and many others in the training department and the Chief Pilot office. There are people that read this regularly and I will tell them that I do miss the honest good citizens who I still consider friends. They know who they are.

And why did I leave? The main reason was a pending unexpected divorce. I took a leave of absence and they would not extend it any further which was too bad. But it was their decision and not mine.

There was also an incident (so minor that any other airline would have solved it with a :15 office visit) that got bigger because the then Chief Pilot made it so. I would do the exact same thing today and it boiled down to world politics. The Koreans don't like the Taiwanese and I was a Taiwanese pilot. End of story!

I still have friends there and a lot of people have moved on. I wish them and you well.

[micoyam]

Hi all,

anybody knows if the company has delayed the interviews due to political reasons.
I´m just waiting so if son body has son info.
Thanks guys.

[IBTheseus]

G'day Jim...Hope things are back on track for you.

In your time away, not much, if anything has improved.

One thing the experts are trying to implement is that Expats will only be able to bid specifically three time per year for your home leave. Our contracts are silent on this, saying only that we will get 8 consecutive days, not that we can actually request which days.

IBT

[RFN]

Hi Jim,

All your Aussie drinking buddies have gone. It took some 12-18 months to see the writing on the wall.

Go only as a DEC.
Do not go expecting upgrades even if you have extensive PIC time on jets and are offered only the RHS with CAL.

I hope all is well with you Jim.

RFN

[Jim Morehead]

I'll check with a few friends,but I think the only thing that slows down China Airlines is Chinese New Year! The debate over the Taiwan straights issue is going to continue forever.

JIM

[Snowyman]

Thanks Jim and all the best.

[Jim Morehead]

Let me clarify and add a few things to my posting of April 1st.

In my referring to Korea versus Taiwan or any country versus another, I was not referring to pilots but politicians. I've known pilots from lots of country that recognize these same battles being fought by governments needlessly.

To see some minior flight incident being turned into a major bruhaha is so sad.

CAL isn't for everybody, but could be a good place for some.

I got some e-mails back from a few friends and here's what they said after 18 months of seeing them and us all starting together.

I noted one response was:
<<<One thing the experts are trying to implement is that Expats will only be able to bid specifically three times per year for your home leave>>>

If CAL were to change this it would be a disaster. Each month, you get to preference and place days off in the computer to hve off. In every month of my 8 that I bid prefernced, they gave me the days off. I had Thanksgiving off as it is not a holiday outside of the US really. Certainly not Taiwan. I also got Christmas off as they roated it. Most Taiwanese don't care about Christmas. Some do. Most don't. Again, it was appreciated and I had a backup set of choices. No company can give everybody Christmas off in the airline business. In trade, for that, The Chinese want Chinese New Year and I was working over that period,but in an out of Taiwan during that time. It was fun and the fireworks and celebrations were neat. I really enjoyed that part of the experience and I again emphasize that I met a lot of good friends there both locals and ex-pats that I still call friends.

If this rumor were to be true, then this would lose a lot of expats. Hopefully that is not their goal and this is just a bad rumor.

From one friend :

<<<Well, I'm still here at CAL - waiting patiently. Nobody (expat) has been upgraded since I've been here. It is a light at the end of a very long tunnel. But so far what they have told me (at the intial interview) has not come to fruition. I constantly have to remind the people I fly with, that I do have an experienced background ......Captains generally don't trust their FOs...

Most of the Ex Ansett captains (now CAL RPs and FOs) have gone. Most 738 Captains are still here (they retain their commands). I don't know how long it is going to take for upgrade, but a couple of CCs (4-5 years with CAL) have gone also. It is just disappointing to feel that your experience is not entirely recognised with the system in place at CAL>>>

this message was disturbing from a VERY rational guy. He is a good friend and I cut out all but the highlights of the message.

FROM another F/O friend there:

<<<CAL seems to be stepping up the treat ex-pats like **** program. Most Aussies have gone. several new hired so american guys quit before finishing training.>>>

Now this is from another guy and if true, it surprises me. He was a pretty quiet guy who never would have seen this when I was there. I don't know why anyone would do this. Perhaps a different perspective?


From another friend, who did not finish F/O training and was highly experienced and used to speak Australian:

<<<start command training next week >>>

this guy had been a 15,000+ guy who they made start in the right seat because he did not have a type rating in the 747-400.

He means he starts Command (Captain for you guys in the other parts of the world) training at ANOTHER place in the world.

It is so easy to see where they are going down the wrong path often in terms of pilot retention. There are so many things that good be improved,but don't seem to be.

What disturbs me so much is that are so many dedicated people at CAL whose efforts are being wasted while just a few hurt the overall success they COULD be having.

[bafanguy]

I have to admit to being completely uninformed on the world of expay flying, so my question will likely seem naive.

But, isn't CAL ( or any other carrier with a high pilot turnover ) concerned about seeing their training money taking a walk out the door ? And what is the advantage to the company in mistreating pilots, expat or nationals, by creating a demoralizing, deadend environment ?

I do know that everything is driven by money, so perhaps training costs aren't such big a piece of the pie if they are willing to train a constant stream of newhires to accomodate their propensity for poor management policies.

All a bit of a mystery to an outsider. Of course, some US operators are guilty of the same shortsightedness.

[Jim Morehead]

Well, it does cost a lot to train a pilot. They get a lot of 300 hour guys from the locals who stay in the right seats for many years. they do wan to promote their own citizens and that is admirable.

However, they know they have to go to the outside because of what is a poor accident record airline. They have decreased accidents and incidents by hiring expats and bringing in expereinced people. And just for the record a LOT of their pilots are excellents however many are not because you have to learn and be taught under the auspices of someone who has the experience. They fly the airplane very conservatively and if they were a US airline paying higher gas prices, they'd burn up the profits just on flying the airplane very slowly.

To wit....In the 400, they start dropping flaps at 17 miles out. If you have not called for Flaps 1 at 17 miles out, the First Officers get very itchly and often apprehesive. They think something is wrong. They have profiles for everything which is good, but Boeing designed profiles as good guidelines under generic conditions. Should you be number one on a clear day with a dry runwya, I wouldn't throw a notch of flaps out until 8 or 9 miles out and that goes for any Boeing bigger than a 727. Actually the 727 could be flown at 250 to the marker and full flaps and land fine VRF. The glass airplanes were better gliders.

But at CAL, if you weren't full configured 10 miles out with power up, people got excited as if you were violating the FOM and Flight Manual. But that is extremely conservative flyng.

Also, very often people got called into the office for the smallest of things and if they didn't like it they got an oral exam and often with a double set of questioners. The theory to effective pilot improvement is counseling and encouragement, and not dicipline.

There were some really nice check airmen that I consider friends. It seemed like the Malaysian crowd and Singapore guys were a good bunch. I remember meeting a great guy from Malaysia on my initial sim check.

But there were a few that beat up on you for taxxing at 12 kts straight ahead because they taxxied like snails rather than following the book. You tolerated them.

I had a line check (they call everything a check ride) and this guy kept me in suspense for a TPE-HKG-TPE and then as we got in, said, "You passed"! Well whoop-de-do! I thought that I guess I did after a handful of type ratings and 22,000 hours and an accident free career. IMost check airman would just watch you one leg and then ask if they could fly the airplane back! Even if he needed two legs, he could have talked to yuo about where you did great (if you did) and where you could improve or tell you that you did a fine job. The confidence goes up a lot when you know you have tried and done well especially in a new environment when you are giving your heart to do a good job in something you like.

Anyway, As I have said, it was a mixed bag. Some good and some bad.

[cajun30]

Jim,
The next time you pass through Baton Rouge let me now, especially now in Crawfish season.

I was referring to the FAA recognizing the 747 ROC type rating. I wanted to verify a US carrier would accept the rating.

OK city they would endorse your FAA license.

[Deske1]

Your post is very true about CAL.Their policies do care about everything except to FLY the aircraft.FLY!!!!

They threat you as their 300 hrs TT beginners,but always they got the upgrade.

IMHO the reason is that,they are very afraid about losing the control within the airline,beacuse they know their aviation qualifications.(Definatly,there are exemptions).

Most of them never heared about common sense.They want tp compensate the lack of aviation with these stupid policies.
Yes Jim,you can have 3 requests per year!

Money doesnt count,remember this is a government owned airline.

6 of the 12 venezuelans started at December are out of the company now.As I see,CAL playing on that there will always be enough South American to come as they get some 600-1000 USD at home.No matter if only one checks out from 10.

I have to tell You,that according to the airline operation and AVIATION side,EVA is more professional although the financial and living conditions are worse at EVA than at CAL.
CAL will not change in their roots,until the "old air force heroes" are here.Only the cover changes.
Sometimes I feel that some locals are hunting for me,because I am foreigner.
The expats are hired to be a "guard angel" for the locals,they have to be "in the seat" and at the controll.Those who can live with it for the money are welcomed here.

[v1r8]

So how much F/O's are they hiring a month?

Also, would they consider me? (21 y/old 1600 TT, 1000 Multi engine turbine pic. FAA CPL and JAA ATPL)

V1

[Jim Morehead]

I've always told you that I would call it as it is and nothing has changed.

I think Part of the confusion on the "3 special requests per year" might come in because they have/had a procedure where a pilot could ask if trip 123 or ID #456 on XXX day. They gave three special equests per year and this was a good thing.

They tried to limit it to 3.

In terms of NOT allowing one to preference/bid schedules, I onw that would be suicidal to change this. Trying to get your 8 days off in a row in a time period where you want them within reason is a MUST HAVE. I think that is just a rumor.

Like any place in the world, if you don't bid, they'll assign you. they have a strict cut off day to have things in the computer.

I also should tell you that CAL among places in the world has NO BIDDING system, so I using the word a little too literally. In what is called the North American BIDDING system, most airlines in North America and I suspect most major airline centers in the world do have a seniority system and they DO get to bid every month.

Many carriers in the world do not have such a system and this will be a schock to many going there or other airlines in the world. In much of the world schedules/bids/blocks etc. are called ROSTERS. The operative world in North America is BIDS or SCHEDULES. In much of Asia and I believe Europe ,they are called ROSTERS.

Most pilots seaching for jobs worldwide will find this unusual that you don't get to put a series of bids on paper and have it done with your seniority via a computer. They automatically ASSIGN you trips from month to month to make you legal. They also assign all of the training in what suits them. Vacation or leave days are often done at the whim of the company and you can take vacation days at any time in small pieces.

Most of this did not both me at all,but to take a job somewhere in the world means you are giving your life to the company. that is why most everybody looked forward to the sancrosinct 8 days off per month.

Just to put it in perspective, I think there is an Indian contract out of JFK and LHR and a Mainland China (may have gone away) 747-400 job from PEK. The PEK job had 7 days off and the days off were only guaranteed to be 3 in a row emaning to "commute" or have any life would be impossible unless you wanted PEK to be your base. In the Indian case, the days that i looked at were in JFK and only 7. I tried to find out whether you returned in the other 23 days per month to JFK and I never could find out. So, I always suumed that if nobody could find out or it wasn't written down, the answer was NO or NO WAY.

That's my point, there were many good things about CAL and they really could go to 10 or 11 days off per month and work harder in the remainder,but they chose not to. They could do the same for the locals,but they don't.

Frankly as a local, I would love to do a HKG turn every day and be home or do a double HKG turn per day to get my hours in,but they don't. Instead, they mix everything and that hurts their own efforts.

[ausflyer]

Hi there Jim,

Good to hear from you again.

Cheers,

Aus'

[v1r8]

C'mon guys.. anyone?

[AAIGUY]

I don't believe so.
You need 1500TT
Jet Type rating
and current on Jet within 12months.

FYI, I know lots of guys including myself who are flying B747 and are applying. I don't imagine there is a shortage of applicants. That being said I think there are some 60-80 positions so who knows...

[v1r8]

Yes, but you guys are not applying for F/O jobs at CAL (I hope)

V1

[29chev]

Hi Jim,
Good to see your still alive and kicking:ok:
With regard to the requesting 8 days off per month....the company is now saying...you still get your 8 days off in a row ...but you only get to pick those days 3 times a year....when I left on home leave last month it wasn't law yet but it was close...and is deffenetly the way CAL wants to move...we (expats are complaining but you know what good that does) here's hopeing they change their mind on this important issue....as I think it will hurt CAL's already bad crew retention rates...as many are walking on a monthly bases.
29

[AAIGUY]

Ahhh..yes mate we are.
I have 6000hrs TT (under 30 years old) and have been on the jumbo for two years. I would give my left nut to go to CAL as a FO.

[The Greaser]

Why????????????

[AAIGUY]

Why?

Many reasons including more pay, ELO at home combined with 3 weeks PAID vacation to start means upwards of 10+ days at home a month, new equipment, the list goes on..I have some very happy friends there. It will be a big step up from AAI.

[Holding Short]

I know they did start a few places and I expect that they moved it to F/Os.

So when you join you actually will have more than one base available? How does it work and which bases they have for new FO´s at the moment?

HS

[freightdog727]

Ni Hao,

Very interesting topic,especially the last reply from Deskee1...
I´m from Germany,have about 3500h tt,about 2000h on Boeing 737-800 Jets.I´m very interested in long-haul flying and I´m thinking of applying with CAL.
My question:
Is it better to apply to CAL direct (via their homepage) or to go via the contractors (IAC etc.)?
Are their differences regarding money,leave etc.?
Is it really possible to be based outside Taipeh? (FRA for example?).If not how often can you expect to be there? and If not,
how much is living in Taipeh.
I used to do my initial ATP training with some CAL guy´s,some years ago,but have no contact anymore.
Thanx for the reply´s in advance.

[Deske1]

1. Much,much better to go direct hire.Direct pilots gets some bonus or 13th month salary at the end of the year. (they say,we will see).More benefits for direct hire.


2. It is not base,it is End of line program,but it means you lose the housing allowance.If you do it right,you can catch some 500 usd more pocket money from the housing.
ELO means about 10-12 days at your home country,3-4 days in TPE 2-4 days in Abu Dhabi(for the FRA ELO).And about 90-95 hours flight time per month.

[AAIGUY]

My ICAO issuing country does recognize the ROC type so no worries for me. Also, I understand that my Sim will be at Boeing in SEA therefore it is also no issue to have it added to my FAA ATPL as well.

[Deske1]

AAI guy,

Are you based in Europe?

If you want to come to CAL,lets change!

[AAIGUY]

Its a deal! You've got PM.

[freightdog727]

Thanx for your reply,deske1
So,another 2 questions.Are they hiring at the moment,and what´s the typical qualification to get invited?
Hope you´re happy over there,are you also from Germany?
Maybe Air Berlin,Hapag or Germania???
Greetings

[Deske1]

I am not German,if I would be,I would fly in Europe.Now,there are some guys from Hamburg Intl. on 747 training here.

[Pin Head]

ELO:

Can I stay anywhere on the route network an pick the a/c up their or is it limited to certain destinations only? If so what are these? I have heard FRA been mentioned. How about SYD or MAN?

The workforce is it mainly comprised of westerns or our locals in charge.

All info greatfully received?

[Pin Head]

So what's the financial package worth both fo those based in Tai pai and those who are based in FRA on the foreign base deal?

[sky_is_the_limit]

Does anyone has an interview with CAL pending? I know that we can write books about CAL. But is it worth the money and effort to fly for CAL let us say that you do not want to be a commander for them within 3 years??

Anybody can explain more about the terms and conditions: pay package, bond, ELO info??

ELO: can you do that in AMS too??

Thanks

PLease PM me for more details - I have an interview upcoming in MAY!!

;)

[oicur12]

Hey there,

do they hire 747 fo's for US basing. do fo's need type rating. Do they need fo's now.



Thanks in advance.

[sky330]

They (?) need F/O on nearly on all sectors, due expansion and more important a lot of F/O's leaving the company.Guess why??

Don't know about basing.

Make a search on pprune about CAL, and carefully assesed, if that's what you are looking for.

[Pin Head]

If I have not heard anything for 2 weeks since sending in my application, it says that I have been unsuccessful.

Should I take this as gospel?

[Quietachiever]

Quietachiever - The rules of PPRuNe, which you agreed to abide by when you registered, clearly state no personal abuse and no racism. You seem to take great delight in wandering through the Far East forum and breaking both these rules. You are now banned from the forum until you contact me either via PM or Email and confirm that you will, in future, abide by the rules of PPRuNe. Your call. BlueEagle, Moderator.

[JTF]

What are peoples opinions about trying for a 25+ year career here? I'm American and I've lived in Taiwan before (not as a pilot). My fiance is Taiwanese and would prefer to live in Taiwan. I understand it could be an awful long time to upgrade but the rates posted even for FOs are big money in Taiwan considering the average person there doesn't make much more than $1000 US a month. The rates suck overall for 747 pilots, but if you live there at least semi-native you can live pretty darn well on FO pay. I truly liked living there and while I may very well die of lung cancer from the pollution I would love to be a pilot in Taiwan. I speak some Mandarin and would definitely work towards fluency. Does anyone think a foreigner could have a full career there or do you think they will be fazed out as enough locals gain enough experience?

[AAIGUY]

Just got my Interview.

5500TT, 1000B747.

The 8+ days at home leave are what interest me most.

[sky330]

JTF,

China insists that employees are "family", while a part is just nice words, they really believe a part of it.
My feeling is that if possible they will honestly try, not to fired someone except for safety reasons (read for not following the books!).

So in my opinion, it is quite possible to make a long carreer in China, if you can accept their company culture wich is certainly easier speaking mandarin. Some pilots (expatriate) have been here quite some time.

Now, I may be completly wrong and if faced with a choice between a local and an expat, their choice will be obvious.

I am afraid that nobody can answer your question not even CAL management, because it will be different guys in ten or fifteen years and rules WILL changed.
Nobody can predict future for the next 25 years....

[Hachiouji-shi]

Hello Jim,

Please check your PMs

Thanks

[typhoonpilot]

What are peoples opinions about trying for a 25+ year career here? I'm American and I've lived in Taiwan before (not as a pilot). My fiance is Taiwanese and would prefer to live in Taiwan. I understand it could be an awful long time to upgrade but the rates posted even for FOs are big money in Taiwan considering the average person there doesn't make much more than $1000 US a month. The rates suck overall for 747 pilots, but if you live there at least semi-native you can live pretty darn well on FO pay. I truly liked living there and while I may very well die of lung cancer from the pollution I would love to be a pilot in Taiwan. I speak some Mandarin and would definitely work towards fluency. Does anyone think a foreigner could have a full career there or do you think they will be fazed out as enough locals gain enough experience?

JTF:

A very good question. Before I answer though, a little about myself to show you how similar we may or may not be. I am an American and have lived in Taiwan before ( as a pilot ). I'm married to a Taiwanese ( congratulations, by the way ) and my wife would also prefer to live in Taiwan.

While the pay of an F.O. at China Airlines is high in relation to the normal worker bees in Taiwan, it would still be a struggle to make a comfortable life in Taipei. I am going to assume that you would want to buy a place to live in. A three bedroom apartment downtown Taipei will run you well over $300,000 for the most basic in a crummy area to well over $500,000 for a decent one in a decent area. You could choose to buy out near the airport for much less, but that has it's drawbacks when it comes to shopping, schooling, going out, etc.

On the subject of schooling. Are you planning on having children ? Do you want to educate them at local schools where rote memorization is stressed over creativity and the normal western style of education, or would you want to send them to the Taipei American School ? Take a look at the fees for the Taipei American School. Your $5000 per month salary just might cover 2 kids at TAS :ugh:

That is just the lifestyle stuff. On to the career question. This is much more difficult to answer. When I worked there ( at FAT ) they promised us that we could stay as long as we liked. Then the Asian Economic Crisis happened and the NT Dollar devalued and in the blink of an eye that promise wasn't honored. The President of FAT at the time was none other than Lee Yun Ling, now President of CAL. He's a nice guy but the big money people who put him there tell him what to do when it comes to budgetary things like expat pilots. When he retires he could very well be replaced by Chen May Wen, who is the current President of FAT and a complete jerk. He hates expats and I guarantee he will try to get rid of them.

The only thing that solidifies the expat position in Taiwan, and especially at CAL, is the safety factor. As long as CAL doesn't prang an airplane they will look to replace the expats with locals. If, god forbid, they prang another one then that actually provides job security to the expats. Provided, of course, that it isn't an expat that prangs it in.

I'm not sure where you are in your career, but the advice I always give is to never go to Taiwan unless you are going as a Captain. Life as an F.O. would be unbearable. I've seen how the local Captains, especially the ex-military pilots, treat their F.O.s and I would never tolerate that kind of treatment. Of course this was at FAT and not CAL so maybe it is better at CAL.

All that said, it is a personal decision as to what you can tolerate and how much you want to live and work in Taiwan. FAT had a Vietnamese pilot, very senior 757 Captain, who left Vietnam after the war and ended up in Taiwan. He learned to read, write, and speak Mandarin and was on local terms at FAT.

Hope this helps,


TP

[Defenestrator]

Just got the nod for an interview. Apparently in goes interview, sim, medical. Is anybody that has been through the process of late in a position to pass on what to expect, ie. interview type questioning, profile for the sim and in what type. And last but not least.....the dreaded medical. Thanks in advance. PM me if you wish.
Defen :ok:

[gonzo7]

can anyone update the current benefits and commitments at CAL? also a little gouge on the interview process, QOL, bases, etc would be nice.

the only info i got so far is that the salary range is between 4000-4600USD/mo

[AAIGUY]

From my understanding. (I am interviewing there is a few weeks) the Salary , including housing allownace and perdeim, is around $6500.

[gonzo7]

it seems like the info is pretty scarce for this company. i'd like to get more detailed information on the employment there.

can i assume the interview is in TPE?

are all their destinations open for EOL? if not, which ones are?

what are the options for rosters if you're based in TPE or EOL?

is there still a training bond, if so, how much and how long?

are they still not upgrading expats?

are they still losing a bunch of expats? if so are they working on improving their relations with expat pilots?

if they're not upgrading expats, can you finish your contract and apply again as a captain in order to get into the left seat?

health, travel, retirement benefits?

they talk about they pay salaries offshore. is that off shore to taiwan or off shore to your home country? any US pilots care to share some info on the tax situation with working for china and paying US taxes?

any information and more would be greatly appreciated by me and many others i'm sure.

gonzo

[sky330]

can i assume the interview is in TPE?
Mostly yes, but sometimes, they move to some other place if they have enough candidate from the same region.

are all their destinations open for EOL? if not, which ones are?
For the time being no. I know of LAX, LUX, FRA, AMS on 744, none that I am aware of in A340, but there is talks...


what are the options for rosters if you're based in TPE or EOL?
Euh?? You can make the flights or leave the company :E

is there still a training bond, if so, how much and how long?
Yes, don't know the details because it seems very "variable"....

are they still not upgrading expats?
No, they changed their mind, everybody is automatically chief-pilot after hiring. :E
Forget it NO UPGRADE!!

are they still losing a bunch of expats? if so are they working on improving their relations with expat pilots?
Yes. Relations are really friendly, problem is working conditions and how to improve it for the expat without higher cost (that's possible) but at the same time continuing to screw up the locals without them complaining.

if they're not upgrading expats, can you finish your contract and apply again as a captain in order to get into the left seat?
I would be really surprised if they accepted that. BTW, how would you get PIC experience flying as F/O for CAL ???

health, travel, retirement benefits?
Health: Taiwan national health care, I have seen much worse, not so bad.
travel : interline, ZZ, after some years tickets with reservation, again really not the best, but far from the worst .
retirement : contract really not clear on that, and still waiting explanation about the exact meaning of the sentence. Seems you may have something if you fly here up to 65. My fair advise would be 'assumed nothing'.

[gonzo7]

thanks for the info and snide comments sky. just trying to do my due dilligence before making any commitments. the info part was the most helpful.

btw, are you based in TPE or doing the EOL thing?


what are the options for rosters if you're based in TPE or EOL?

Euh?? You can make the flights or leave the company


this is not quite what i meant. i am looking for an example of what the various rosters look like that you can expect to pick up while working there based in TPE or doing an EOL (for my case out of LAX)

as for making the flight or leaving the company, have you worked someplace that this doesnt apply?

is there still a training bond, if so, how much and how long?

Yes, don't know the details because it seems very "variable"....

variable in how the enforce it or different people are given different bonds?

No, they changed their mind, everybody is automatically chief-pilot after hiring.
Forget it NO UPGRADE!!

calm down please.. there's no need to get defensive

are they still losing a bunch of expats? if so are they working on improving their relations with expat pilots?

Yes. Relations are really friendly, problem is working conditions and how to improve it for the expat without higher cost (that's possible) but at the same time continuing to screw up the locals without them complaining.

how are the working conditions now? what makes them a "problem" as you put it?

i got a novel idea. how about they treat everone equally? based on experience and/or time served instead of race? seems like it works for most companies.


if they're not upgrading expats, can you finish your contract and apply again as a captain in order to get into the left seat?

I would be really surprised if they accepted that. BTW, how would you get PIC experience flying as F/O for CAL ???

i dont know, how do the locals upgrade without any PIC experience flying as the FO for CAL? how does anyone upgrade anywhere for that matter?

retirement: well, assuming nothing is what you should be doing at any airline these days.

[29chev]

this is not quite what i meant. i am looking for an example of what the various rosters look like that you can expect to pick up while working there based in TPE or doing an EOL (for my case out of LAX)

For most of us they work your ass off then you get 8 days off then they work your ass off again


variable in how the enforce it or different people are given different bonds

different people different bonds depending on your past experience and if you are current on type(744,343,333,ab6,738) or just on another boeing or bus. which becomes every thing from no bond to 20,000 usd +.



i got a novel idea. how about they treat everone equally? based on experience and/or time served instead of race? seems like it works for most companies.

If your hopeing for that forget it, expats are secound class and that will not change anytime soon,



i dont know, how do the locals upgrade without any PIC experience flying as the FO for CAL? how does anyone upgrade anywhere for that matter?

The locals upgrade because they are locals that will not help you.
Keep in mind most of the expats F/O's have far more time and experience than the local Capts they are flying with.

In the history of the company there have been 5 expat upgrades I understand there are 2 more guys getting the upgrade as we type. I was told the only reason they ever upgrade expats is if they absolutly have no local pilots who can do it or as now there is a large number of expats leaving and they think if a couple upgrades are given out it might slow down the departure rate. It won't ....If you need a job because you have no other work ok take a right seat, but if you are working else where don't come unless you will get a left seat.

[sky330]

Yeah, sorry Gonzo, was feeling tired, and most of these had already be treated.
btw, are you based in TPE or doing the EOL thing?
I'm on the bus based in TPE. To my knowledge, there is no ELO on the A340, but we just received a proposal, that is so unclear that I don't have a clue what it is exactly all about.

For personnal and pratical reason, I cannot move my family in Taiwan.
With 8 days HL and lossing three days in the travel back-forth TPE, I have 5 days completly jet-lagged with my family per month.
That was not my vision when I married 15 years ago :{

And the same time I got 5 days with home stand-by, partial home-stand-by and off days (not counting the rest) in TPE and more than 85 hours, so obviously, it should be possible to improve on that.

i got a novel idea. how about they treat everone equally?
Yes, could be great, but remember 'divide and conquer'. Management like to play one group against the other....

[gonzo7]

sky330 & 29chev,

thanks for the info guys. it's definately helpful to get a good look at whats going on there. it'll no doubt help people make a better decision and/or be prepared for what they're going to face before they get there. nothing worse than a suprise you dont want. :)

sorry for the ton of questions, but as you surely know, some of these concepts are really strange for western pilots.

like i am gathering from your posts that you get your 8 days off, then you're pretty much working for the next 22 in some way or another.

i am fully aware of how widespread the unequal treatment of expats are at asian airlines. i was just taking my turn on the snide remark pony. :)

i hear what you're saying about not leaving a good job for that one. at the moment i'm sort of in a dilema. they have told me they want to interview me. i am at a job right now, but come this fall, no one knows how many of us will be left. so i'm trying not to prematurely leave this job, but not be caught with my pants down. i'm doing my homework on as many options as i can think of.

thanks for the help and good luck to you guys over there. sky, i feel for you being away from your family so much. hopefully you can get back to a normal life soon.

gonzo

[29chev]

SKY330 check your PM's

[gonzo7]

can anyone shed some light on what the rosters are like if you're based in LAX? where do you fly to/from, etc.

how about for YVR? i hear its full, but it'd be good to hear about anyway.

thanks

gonzo

[AAIGUY]

The first thing to understand (which CAL make as unclear as they can) is that YVR is NOT a base. It is simply a place where they currently allow you to take ELO. You will be based in TPE

[gonzo7]

yes, i understand its an EOL station. i was hoping we could get past the semantics and just get some facts on the original questions.

[spencer101]

So if one was to move the family over to Taipei how many days at home would you end up with per month??

[Deske1]

About 12-13 days per month ,home leave included.

[spencer101]

How about reserve duty?

[skypine27]

I've been offered interview dates in August. From the email I received, and the way I filled out the application, I presume it is for the 744 FO position.

I have read alot about them in this forum, however, I have been unable to find any info on FO payscales, work rules, etc.

Currently, I'm a furloughed pilot from a major US airline living in Chicago.

I'm just curious if this offer is better than some of the US job offers I have (Polar, World), as far as pay and work rules go.

Thanks for any info.

[stinkypizza]

Hi guys

I have been reading a lot on the Asian situation. i have back tracked a few months and it dont sound too good in most opinions but at the same time some good opinions seem to be out there as well. I am an aussie hold an ATPL and am thinking of applying to some of the companies in that part of the world. Is it too pre-mature to apply with 2200 hours ( 2000 on Turbo Props) OTTERS, KING AIR, balanced in both command and FO. From opinions out there, am i a little pre-mature in experience to be applying for these positions. i would rather spend half an hour on this site than waste 3 weeks applying to companies that wont even sneeze on my CV. i am happy where i am and in no rush and i will not pay for a rating. I've spend enough already.
And what do we think is the general cut off age for Airlines in Asi these days. i want to stay in the bush ops as long as viable as it is to much fun sliping down runways. i should menton i fly in PNG.

Ta..

[Billacabella]

Finally got to page 3 of the 5 page application, submitted it and it is taking ages to load the next page. Is this a common thing? Any way to speed up the process?

Billa

[v1r8]

Yeah, get a high speed connection!

[tailets]

To answer your questions about (latest) expat conditions at CAL, I got these answers from the interview process.

Salary $4660 USD/month (for 70 hours overtime at regular hourly pay over that)
Income tax is 20% and will be deducted (if you work over 183 days you can get a partial rebate)
Housing $37,000NT or 1100USD / month (taxed) for TPE base only
Per Diem $2USD /hr
G/S and Sim pay is $2800USD/month
Line Indoc $4164 USD/month
hotel accomodations for up to 7 months during training
Training bond (non-typed) 3 years/$20000USD (pro rated at months left PLUS 2 months salary!)
ELO bases can be applied for only after line check and may or may not be available. no straight answers about them but I've heard MIA, FRA and maybe YVR on 747 so far and maybe SYD on 340. there may be more in the future but who knows.

hope this sheds some light on the cash gents. now the working conditions are what I'm trying to sort through :ugh:

cheers

[B737FO]

tailets,

Which sim eval did you do 747 or 737? I go in August so any info is appreciated. Did you get any idea of cost of apartments etc?


B737FO

[akarapol]

hey,..any here got an interview with CAL in AUG?....would like to know what kind of the Q will be in the interview and checking the demand for the F/O with CAl at the moment.....good chance to get in?....Thanks

[International Trader]

That accomodation allowance is for captains.
F/O apparently live in lower standards and get NT$29,000 per mth. That equates to a 20 year old single bedroom apartment in town or sharing with others.
You can pay less but, not in Taipei, only out of town. Not a westerner "user friendly" place.
I wouldn't consider it with a family with children. Just too tough if the family is stuck there all the time. Could not do that to my family. Government schooling is just not suited to westerners and forget about expat schools($$$) on F/O salary.
You will work to a employment policy once you start and that will differ from what is said at the interview. Very hard to get an answer from the pay mistress beyond" you are being paid correctly"

Remember: ELO pilots lose the accomodation and DTA in ElO ports. The time spent in your country could also cause tax problems for your self.
The company will look at it if it is their interest only.

Finally, to my knowledge there has not been 1 expat upgrade to captain in the biggest period of expansion that the company has seen in a long time. That is, despite there being many expat F/Os and R/Ps that have more command hours than several local captains combined . Reason: you are excluded from the command pool.
It is a national pilots airline after all.
A captains lot is reasonable unless you fall out of favour with the management.
On the Interviews: Don't worry, I you have a licence and previous heavy jet time, you will be offered a job. That part is a "No brainer".
Medical is extensive but few fail .

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

Has anybody got hired with their minimum requirements (1500 piston)

[Gooneybird]

I have many friends living in Taipei on salaries of about NT$60000, they live in nice apartments for much less than your quoting.

Jeez!

Salary + housing will leave you saving nicely in Taiwan.

[B737FO]

I appreciate everyones input about this. I have since turned down my interview for August at CAL. Simply to many complaints and people quoting about non upgrades etc. It would be stupid for me to leave my 737 job here to chase a type rating. To hard to try to do this with a family which is my situation. CAL have always being EXTREMELY proffesional to me and this was a hard choice.

International Trader,
I appreciate your honesty about the family situation and schooling. I appreciate all your comments.

To those who are carrying on good luck. As with the interview package they sent me it is straight forward from those I know who have gone and done it already. No technical questions just simply "Do you like Chinese people" "Do you mind working long flights with a younger chinese pilot with less experience then you have?" "What do you do to relax?" "Excelerated training are you used to and cappable of it?" They want to know if you can work with them for long hours at a time. The sim eval is based on a 737-800 or 747-400 which has been beat to death in this post. Normally 737 for non widebody type history. You will fly off RWY 05 in RTCP Chaing Kai Shek airport. Saiko 1Mike Departure. (Spelling is not acurate) lol. Into steep turns, stall recovery, vectored to an ILS 05. Takeoff visual circuit land on 05 again. Take off vectored VOR05 appr. Then takeoff V1 cut then 6-8 mile ILS on 05 to a landing.

This was in the package they sent me hope this helps for those going would have recieved this same thing so it wont help you.

I applied for the A340 F/O possition but I dont think that the interview or sim is any different for A340/B747.


Have fun.

[tailets]

International Trader: I was quoted these figures for housing duiring the interview. Are you sure the F/O housing is only $29000NT? I didn't have enough time to see any housing or visit any expats online to know what could be afforded for that amount.

My sim eval was on the 737-800 (as was my entire group's) but you won't know until you arrive in TPE. You may get 744 sim if it is available. I don't think it is based on your experience.

Interivew as stated above. Non-technical in nature. Just want to get to know you a bit and see if you would fit in. Asked about if I've worked with Chinese people before, about my previous work experience, hobbies, any emergencies inflight, etc. Nothing you could prepare for really. Expect about 5-6 training captains and one VP or even the Chairman to be present. They all have your online application and ask questions from that.

CAL won't release an actual contract or 'training agreement' until you agree to take the position. Hmmm.

any other questions are welcome.

cheers and good luck

[littlejet]

How extensive is it, and what is their fail rate?

[Deske1]

I am really sure about that housing for expat F/O is 29.600 NTD.

37.000 minus tax.

Today is payday here.............

[oicur12]

Hey there,

does CAL employ FO's to be US based 747 or a340?

thanks.

[sky330]

When I was looking for an appartment, here the figures I finded

In TPE, between 25.000 - 35.000 NT$ for an house on western standard, add 10.000 if you want to be in Tienmou area (near the international schools), remove 10.000 NT$, if you leave outside TPE (near CKS for ie).

But of course, it all depends on what you find acceptable and what size you want like in every other city in the world.

[Billacabella]

I had a pre interview telephone call yesterday from China Airlines. It progressed quite positively but there was no feedback at the end of the call.

Do they tell you straight away if you are eligible for the real interview/sim/medical stage? Or do i have to wait 3-4 weeks?

Billa

[AAIGUY]

CAL won't release an actual contract or 'training agreement' until you agree to take the position. Hmmm.

Exactly. And when you do find out, it is much less than they will lead you to believe. I was super gung ho about CAL, up until that little bit of info become clear.

Do they tell you straight away if you are eligible for the real interview/sim/medical stage? Or do i have to wait 3-4 weeks?

Never had a phone, just instant offer of Inter/Sim/Med

[typhoonpilot]

When I was looking for an appartment, here the figures I finded

What year were you looking ?, 1995 or earlier.

In TPE, between 25.000 - 35.000 NT$ for an house on western standard, add 10.000 if you want to be in Tienmou area (near the international schools),

I've lived in Taipei and rented two different apartments. I was also just in Taiwan for three weeks and looked at the for rent ads in the China News. There is no way you can get a place up to a " western standard " for the above quoted prices. NT 25,000 per month will get you a furnished one bedroom or studio in a decent area new the Sungshan Airport, say Minsheng East Road, Section 3,4, or 5. A furnished two bedroom, that you wouldn't consider living in in the States or Australia would run about NT 35,000 per month. Decent places to a " western standard " would cost over NT 50,000 per month. In Tienmu you would need to be in the 60,000 to 90,000 per month range for a decent place.

Bare in mind that the definition of unfurnished is completely different than what you would expect in the States or most other places. Unfurnished means no air-conditioning units, no appliances, nothing. Just bare walls and floors.

If you are willin to live to a Chinese standard then you could get a two or three bedroom place in a convenient area of the city for between NT 35,000 to NT 45,000 per month. It might take some looking, but they can be found.

Typhoonpilot

[Beyond tha Threshold]

Billa,

I also had a pre interview telephone conversation on the very same day!

I also know that one of the work referees were contacted to say nice things about me.

I wonder what is next?


:cool:

Beyond.

[noflow]

It appears China Airlines is doing some hirng. In fact they'll be at a job fair in LAX. I'm an American pilot with about 5000 hours currently a captain for a leading US regional airline.

What can you tell me about China Airlines? I'm looking to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Many thanks!

[Undecided username]

If you do a simple search on CAL, you will find a thread about 9 pages long.

Here you go........::uhoh:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103478

[Shintaro9]

NF,

The local line pilots are generally nice people. Wish the same could be said of some instructor pilots and check pilots. Other than being in the sim, the rest is the good part.

Management is the bad part. Cannot be trusted. "Temporary" market allowance adjustments after 9/11 and SARs still not reinstated or increased. No respect for contracts. Making rules and policies at their own fancy.

They are continually taking things away from you. Now we have to commute on home leave days ( 2 soft days either side gone). And on your OFF days in TPE, they put you on reserve duty (RD). Moving into cheaper and cheaper hotels.

Long haul flts that depart at night used to have 4 man, now 3. Still legal, but this is a cost cutting move. Not recommended for an airline that needs to improve safety. Most 3 man crew, 1 capt, 1 relief pilot and 1 FO.

CAL wont be doing some hiring, they'll be doing lotsa hiring. Some locals are leaving even. 1 to H Kong and another to Abu Dhabi, giving confidence for others to make the move. Some expats are comtemplating Great Wall Airlines in Shanghai, Emirates, Etihad and Korean. All recruiting end of 2005.

It's unwarranted hardship and you get played out a lot. :(

[typhoonpilot]

If you go back through the threads on CAL and EVA over the years you will find a few people, like myself, who warn guys away from going to Taiwan as an F.O. Life is just too short to put up with the kind of treatment the F.O.s in Taiwan receive.

As for the contract terms being eroded, that is the case with almost all Asian airlines. In my three years there the package went down by $1000 per month every year. Your contract is the best it will ever be on the day you sign it. If you can live with that and live with a 20 to 30% decrease over the life of the contract then go for it. Don't expect an upgrade and don't say you weren't warned.

If you need the experience to make a another step in your career than it could be worth it, but be careful.


Typhoonpilot

[Medwin]

After 5 phone calls to the recruitment guy in Taiwan I'm convinced by typhoonpilot and undecided username about the work condition over there. The guy was not very pleasant on the phone at all, I was just trying to change my flight date going to my interview and he was like "NO" its already booked just deal with it.
I'll go to the interview for the experience and for a free trip to TPE. :}

[IFR Pilot]

Shintaro9 and Typhoon Pilot,

I really appreciate your feedback about CAL. It really bothers me how a company can say you will get so much pay and so many days off, and then say during the contract you get less.

Especially when new people sign up they get the same story again of how good the conditions are. How can they do this, can't a pilot walk away saying that they aren't abiding by their terms? Isn't their signature on the contract too?

How about the ELO in places like YVR, is that just another carrot dangling in front of you too?

Medwin...
Go for it! I see the pattern there with your story, Mine is they tell me I'm starting 2 months from now, so I make plans to go, then they send me another email that I start in a month, I said thats now too early because I've already made plans for the orininal date, they said oh well, if you you don't come early your offer for employment is revoked! Oh what to do...

[Deske1]

The ELO is not written in stone.You get it,if and when there is an empty space for it.
And bear in mind,that even taiwanese pilots are doing the ELO for YVR,LAX and MIA and they get the preference ahead of you(and of course in any other issues),so if there is no local applicants ,than come the expats.I know a guy who was refused from the ELO when other locals got it.
some info for the tax authority of Canada or USA would be usefull.....

[CAT IIIB]

noflow
posted 27th August 2005 03:22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm an American pilot with about 5000 hours currently a captain for a leading US regional airline.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow,with 5000 hours and already a Captain in the States?Lucky you!All these while I thought aviation career progress in advanced countries are slow because the airlines there are already saturated.

Can't get the skipper's seat with 5000 hours here,not any more...:(

[Flying Mechanic]

Would China Airlines consider taking a Turbo prop Pilot at all?Have any Turbo prop pilots ever got in?
Cheers FM

[JTF]

CAT IIIB- It's fairly easy to upgrade to captain at a "regional" airline in the US with as little as 2500 hours at some of the rapidly expanding companies. This is not really a good thing since the regionals are rapidly expanding and getting bigger and bigger equipment at relatively low pay while the major airlines are mostly getting smaller with flying replaced with 50, 70, and some 90 seat jets from the "regional" partners. This leads to less jobs on bigger, better paying equipment and many pilots likely being trapped at the regionals for their entire career.

Noflow- were you offered the interview without having a type rating in any of the equipment flown by China Airlines? I applied about a year and a half ago and was informed that a type rating in any of their fleet types was required for the interview. If they dropped this requirement I may reapply since my fiance is Taiwanese and would prefer to live there. I guess I'm willling to take a chance on poor conditions. I would suggest at least taking the free trip and checking out the area for your own enjoyment even if you don't really plan on accepting an offer. There are many interesting and beautiful places in Taiwan to see if you can swing a little extra time there.

[Medwin]

Not all regional, I've been with my company for over 6 years now and I'm still an FO.

JTF,
Noflow is just asking about CAL, I don't think he was offered an interview with CAL, they didn't dropped the requirement about type rating yet, I just talked to them last week.
Is it worth it to buy one? Now that's another topic.

[etops777]

After reading what's been said here I think it's time for me to make a comment. I am a close friend of typhoonpilot and we worked in the same company. I am a Taiwanese/American, what's I say here is a FACTS......

Having spend 6.5 years with CAL as a B744FO/RCA and with a command knocking around the corner, I have decided that it was time to move on. The managements at CAL does not respect any of their staffs, even locals. It's a very "FINED" airline, you will be fined for any violations, any FOQA exceedance-even for doing 250 kts below 10000 fts at the request of ATC, 1 PPC every 3 months, in addition to annual line checks, there is tons of other checks..even get sack for sim support!!:sad:

Don't believe what the managements told you as they will not honor what's been promised. Only go to China Airlines if you have no other alternatives. AVOID CAL AT ALL COST. Especially to that 5 year regional captain to stay where you are!!! I was about to leave CAL for a FO job with Netjets.. so this should tell you a lot..

[pitotman]

I joined CAL in May of last year....I came with 1700 on the 744 and (6500TT) and was promised a cruise command after one year only to have the policy changed to two years. They also promised me Captain after three years......I have resigned and the list of guys leaving is stacked higher than the bull**** these guys will tell you to come to CAL......Bottom line is if you have a job that is paying you a reasonable amount of money, then stay the hell away from here..... The whole company is miserable.........everyone is tired and job satisfaction is none existent..... I hate to say this but I am predicting an accident at CAL in the next two years..........due to fatigue and lack of training. The bottom line is the whole culture is out of whack.......they upgrade local guys over expats when most of the locals have not even had 300 landings.........Jesus I did three hundred landings my first year out of university in the bush. If it was not for airbus and Boeing redundancy these guys would be smoking holes in the ground left right and centre......they had a guy drop it on in the states (HARD LANDING) last month twice and not write it in the log book and he is still a captain.......

5 year Captain.........don't be in a rush to fly the 744 it is a joke of an airplane to fly and you will not get more than one or two sectors a month.....its just not worth it.

[AAIGUY]

If you look at my intial posts I was very keen on CAL. It SEEMED to offer everything.

As I got further into the process I realized it was all lies. They will do anything they can to get you to sign the bond and join. Then they will change it all. You will have no recourse.

[turbosheep]

If it was not for airbus and Boeing redundancy these guys would be smoking holes in the ground left right and centre

As oppose you flying on aircrafts without ANY redundancy? :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Do give these guys a chance, they are still recovering from their spade of crashes and the ANC snowbank shaving incident.

They are doing the best they can at the moment.:cool:

[29chev]

turbosheep

I know pitotman would not fly or want an aircraft "without ANY redundancy" Thats not what he is saying.....he is saying that the "redundancy" is the only thing saveing this company from another crash.

"Do give these guys a chance, they are still recovering from their spade of crashes and the ANC snowbank shaving incident."

Why? So they can do it again?

"They are doing the best they can at the moment."

No they are not.....they best they can would put the most experince pilots they have in the Left seats and they don't do that.....they put local pilots in that seat regardless if they are capable or not.

[Blown Seal]

China-information?,
Whilst you are correct about seniority being the major factor in being given an opportunity for upgrade training (as it should be), holding up the rest of the seniority list until someone can pass
"Even a horrible airmen can pass a command upgrade on the 3 or 4 try."
is not saying much for the standard of captain that cal wish to have commanding their aircraft nor is it fair on the people lower on the list being held up by incompetent pilots.

[Deske1]

I would be gratefull if somebody could show me a valid seniority list at CAL.
Yeah normally it would go on this way but i guess mentionig this seniority here is only to justify their policies only,although i never saw this list.
The policy is clear,upgrade only locals,the 2 expat upgrade within 4 years,is anybody in doubt?

[spleener]

super sheep, stand back and take a breath - this is par for the course in a localisation program.
Don't ,however, even consider that it is the safe course of action. And I'll write this bit because I need another full stop. Da Spleen.:}

[Deske1]

In this case it could be declared through the interview,that localization is going on this company,so NO UPGRADE for expats.

Instead of this they just lie to your eyes about 2 years,5 years when they introduce themselfs.but as we know,this is a 2 way street................:yuk:

[orisworldtimer]

Are there any expat F/O's at CAL who brought their families to live with them in TPE? How does it work out? OWT

[LEMD]

AAIGuy.

Good to see you came to your senses! I do believe you were close to making a big mistake.

[macm]

hi, i work for cal, and to tell you the truth, i,m very pleased with the company, they have given me all whats on my contract, i fly like 75 hrs a month and get like 14 days off including 8 days off in a row, sometimes get 16 days off in a row (back to back or annual leave with home leave), 97% of pilots i have flown with are proffesionals and very friendly people, company works just fine and it is improving a lot, living in taipei with family is ok, gets a little tight if you have kids, because of school prices, are too high, like 800usd a month per kid, but other than that it is just fine, i'm an fo and 3 of my expat friends just got promoted to captain, so they do upgrades, that what i've seen
see ya

[BusTie]

Can anyone tell me what is said and asked on this pre-interview phone call? I have one this week and it would be nice to know what is asked?

thanx

[tailets]

can't help you guys about the pre-screening phone call as we didn't have one. just an invitation to the interview.

macm,
sounds like you are one of the few enjoying working at CAL. are you on the 744? are you glad you chose to move there instead of commuting?

IFR pilot,
wondering if you've made a decision about going over? check your pm's.

thanks to all the others for sharing your thoughts about the company! it has definitely shed some light on the treatment of expats over there.

cheers

tailets

[Kenny]

Hi guys,

I sent an email to the address listed on the CAL website about a month ago. Within a week my referee had received a call and I was essentialy screened through him.

About a week later I received a call from Taipei during which I was asked the usual questions;

What are your strengths/weaknesses.
Why CAL
How did you hear about CAL.
What do you know about CAL
What aircraft have you flown and who for.
Why do you want to work in SE Asia.

And similar questions.

I've received another email since then asking me to outline my flight hours in little bit more detail.

The gentleman who I've been corresponding with and talked to on the phone has been nothing but profesional. I've read all the posts on here and I'm not sure I'd go but I want to find out for myself how the land lies at CAL.

I'll post more if I get any further.

[BusTie]

Thank you Kenny for the information.

[Hachiouji-shi]

MACM,

Expats F/Os being promoted to Captains? If it does happen, do they maintain an expat's Terms or do they revert to a local's terms?

I thought these sort of promotions never or hardly happens in CAL?

[Kenny]

Well,

I just got am "Introductory Brief" outlining the terms and conditions. All the normal stuff, although no outline of pay.

I don't think it's right to post it here but if anyone that's interested in CAL wants to see it, then PM me.

Kenny.

[Beyond tha Threshold]

Kenny,

Thats strange.

I also received an Introductory brief today. Mine had all Salary details including allowances & Benefits.

By the look of it they have 36 Interview slots starting 18th October to the end of November.

Beyond.

[ausflyer]

Gretings,

Any updates with CAL? Is Amy still in the recruitment section? Any tips for a 744 punter?

Thanks for reading,

Aus"

[Pitot-Grande]

Bus-tie,

My telephone interview had all the stuff Kenny stated PLUS:

What's your religion?

How much did your flight training cost you and how did you pay for it?

How long did your flight training last?

Does the CRJ have an FMS?

What am I most proud of?

Why do I want to leave my company?

Interviewer was very pleasant, but at times I had to strain to understand what he was asking.

[Pitot-Grande]

Yes, I have read the previous 12 pages, but I still have some questions for those in the know:

1) Are FOs PIC type rated on B747 or just SIC type rated?

2) What is the FO payscale? (I have seen the captain pay posted, but no mention of FO pay.)

3) Is there a line standards department (no flame)?

4) Is there any CRM training or is the airline still stuck in the 1960s?

5) How many hours are the B747 overnights?

6) How many days off per month for B747 lineholders? Reserves?


Thanks to all who reply.

[LEMD]

MACM.

"I'm an fo and 3 of my expat friends just got promoted to captain"?

How long had they been there and can you confirm with their initials here please as this is contrary to what I've heard? And what fleet?

I know of a guy who has been there 3 years with bags of time previous to going to CAL and he's just doing his RP course. Another who has just quit and been there for 5.5 years... with previous command time on 737's.

Curious if they have finally come to their senses? Doubt it though!

[Deske1]

Ok,to finish this lottery according to CAL upgrades,here is the copy of the latest B744 fleet notification:


CAPTAINS
Domestic Line Captains:147
Domestic Line pilot under training for CPT:11
Expat Line Captains:92
Expat Pilot under Training for CPT:2


FIRST OFFICERS,Route captains included
Domestic Pilot:202
Domestic pilot under training for FO:18
Expat pilots:61
Expat pilots under training for FO:33

ROUTE CAPTAINS,FO not included
Domestic Route Pilot:90
Domestic Pilot under training for RP:3
Expat Route Pilot:16
Expat pilot under training for RP:0


Have fun,do your math about the chances.Previous experience is NOT respected here,they consider you as a newcomer.

[ranklein]

If I'm 737-200/300 typed (FAA), would that preclude me from signing a bond for the 737-800?
Thanks

[BusTie]

How long one should wait to hear anything back after the phone interview? and what is next?

[Kenny]

BusTie

I did the phone interview and received the introductory brief 2 weeks later. In between I received 2 emails; one asking for a break down of my flight time and another asking for my referees email address, so that he could write down what he'd said about me.


Once I'd emailed Taipei back I received an email asking me which interview slot I'd like.

Right now I don't think I'll be taking them up on the offer. I do want to fly the 744 but I don't want to spend the next 5 years as an FO when I will probably upgrade at my present company within the next 12 months. Added to which, far too many people seem to leave within the first 2 years and that says a lot.


Hope that answers your question.

Kenny

[BusTie]

Thanks Kenny,

Well, one thing is very clear that, they don't have a proper procedures for this. They checked with my last employer before the phone interview as yours was after.

And you are right, come to think of it, 5 years is a very long time.

Once again thank you for your reply.




ps: can you pm me the terms and condition letter that they sent you? i want to get a heads up on it.

[ranklein]

Does anyone know what's the travel benefits? What about tickets on other airlines and how long after joining CAL?
Thanks!

[sky330]

Travel benefit :
-Start of contract
economy ticket from home to nearest CAL station, Business confirmed from it to TPE.
Same for spouse and kids
Same end of contract

-After 12 months
one free round trip from Asia to America/Europe/Australia -- seat available -- F for captains, C for Cruise or F/O

- After 36 months
Two tickets same as above or one as above and two round trip Asia

- Unlimited ID90/ID75 on company route
- Interline as other company regulation (ZZ,..)

[mattgitau]

can anyone assist with a contact phone number for the recruiting office up in taiwan.

Feel free to Post here or PM me

Thanks in advance

[ranklein]

thanks sky330,

so pretty much flying other airlines with their zz discount?

Any idea if having a 737-300 type precludes me from signing a bond for a 738?

cheers

[sky330]

Hello Ranklein,
so pretty much flying other airlines with their zz discount?

Don't forget a lot of airlines want you one year in the industry before allowing ZZ, and as this is a new contract, expect to wait one year before having access to it :{

I was not bond, so no idea, but maybe someone else??
As a rule bond regulation is essentially 'variable' in CAL, read anything possible and because you are in the same situation doesn't mean they would propose the same bond or that plain logic will apply. Welcome to CAL contracts :E

[Deske1]

And dont take the USD 4600 as F/O.
Normally they offer 5100 base on the 747, even if you are not rated,but CAL tries the 4600 for a while.If they see,that you are familiar that the 5100 usd contract exits you will get it as they are really short of manpower these days,and dont forget that 4 more 747 freighter are on order for the next year.
Belive me,you will deserve the 5100 here.:\

[ranklein]

Deske1,

I've heard the "6600$" figure for the 744.Does it include some per diem and other things for that total or the total is 5100$ with everything included?

Isn't the 4600$ for the 738?
thanks

[Deske1]

This is a copy of another guy's post:

Salary $4660 USD/month (for 70 hours overtime at regular hourly pay over that)
Income tax is 20% and will be deducted (if you work over 183 days you can get a partial rebate)
Housing $37,000NT or 1100USD / month (taxed) for TPE base only
Per Diem $2USD /hr
G/S and Sim pay is $2800USD/month
Line Indoc $4164 USD/month
hotel accomodations for up to 7 months during training
Training bond (non-typed) 3 years/$20000USD (pro rated at months left PLUS 2 months salary!)


I am talking about the BASE: mine and the others got 5100 not 4660,and I was not rated on the 744.
They try to offer the 4660 for first as there are a lot of South Americans who accept it as they are from poor countries.But believe me,5100 is the original package,but CAL tried this game with the South Americans and it worked for CAL.
On the other hand the germans refused it and finally they got the 5100.

6600 could be with per diem,housing and overtime included for a 95-100 blk hour month.
The flt. time as dead head counts only 50% for your overtime.:yuk:

The avarage that you can expect with housing allowance is about 5800-6000 usd per month.

[Beyond tha Threshold]

When do I haggle for a better contract?

The current base values I have been sent are;

about 3300USD and 3600USD respectively for 738 and 744.

Bond is for 4 years, not sure about the amount?

As I have accepted this brief to get an interview, when will I get a chance to haggle for a better contract.

I understand they will give you the contract to look at before or after the interview. Is this when I am to tell them I don't like it or will this piss them off? Is it best to wait for an offer of employment and then tell them to stick it?

Anyone care to share their experiences with this issue?

Beyond.

[Deske1]

Hehhhh????

If its true,than this airline is not for any westerner pilot.I can have the same money in Europe and at least I dont have to take those so many sh!t.

But it might be true as there are rumors for reducing our market allowance,if it happens I am out next day and I guess I wont be alone.

[Beyond tha Threshold]

Yes, unfortunately this is what I was sent from them!

For those in the know, is there any additional allowances, meal etc when on layover / away from base, besides per diem?

Beyond.

[tailets]

Hey Beyond,

Sounds like this contract is getting worse. Deske's post above lists all the details I was given about 5 month's ago. Now the base salary is $1000USD less per month?!? Crazy!

I had heard the bond was changing to a bank guarantee of $25,000 USD upfront too. Anybody else heard of this? If so they are gonna be really hard pressed to get expats to come over there...

It would be tough to negotiate anything with them while over there I would imagine. If you mentioned it in the interview you would probably be sent home. I would wait until you get a job offer (after the medical) first then try to negotiate with them...

good luck

tailets:ok:

[Beyond tha Threshold]

Yes!

Unfortunately this is what I have in writing.

Yes there is a bank guarantee for four years. I am not sure of the amount, they did not tell me this in my brief.

Tailets, how long after the medical will I get feedback of if they want me or not?

Beyond.

[Deske1]

My one and only advise:DONT TAKE IT,I wouldnt do as well.

When I came,the contract was usd 5100+per diem(3 usd/hour)+housing(NTD 31000~1100 usd)+overtime.Taxed by 20%.Only 15.000 usd training bond for 3 years,NO BANK GUARANTIE.Thats what I have signed a little bit more than a year ago.I left my B737 job at home,if I could turn back time,now I wouldnt,even for the above mentioned contract.
If you take the bank guarantie you'll be in a trap.A very painfull trap!It simply not worth for usd 3600.
You will live like a zombee,everytime tired and overworked not to mention the aviation side in the cockpit.Will not be able to recreate on your 8 days home leave,just sleep and sleep and after that it starts again.Forget your life,and forget the left seat here.EVEN the taiwanese pilots resign these days,I guess it says a lot!And CAL reduces the salary! Its crazy,I dont belive it!:mad:

[tailets]

There you have it. Sounds like the contract gets worse every six months! plus the bank guarantee now will keep pilots from leaving before the contract expires. What about if you get fired? Do you get the money back?


It took two weeks to get the medical results and offer. Hope this all helps. Enjoy the trip over there and make the most of it all and you can make your decision later.

:suspect:

cheers

[Sonic Zepplin]

I can fly a C402 in the states and do better than that.

[BusTie]

ya but you will always dream of being the real pilot.

[sky330]

ya but you will always dream of being the real pilot.

Sure, because flying for CAL is : I quote "a real pilot job". :}

Thanks Bustie, you make my day, best laugh of the week.



For the others, I would think it was clear from sometimes already in this thread:

Don't come here as an first officer, unless you are desesperate and even then, think about it really carefully. Period!

[BusTie]

Okay it's been over two weeks after my phone interview and no calls and e-mails.

They did ask for refferences, so I know the phone interview went well.

I heard they are hiring swiss pilots too, what's that all about?

so that means, they stoped hiring?

how long usually takes for them to answer you after the phone interview?

thanks

[Southern Albatross]

Greetings Gents,

Just received the introductory Brief, and Interview offer.
Looks like they've got interview slots right through till Christmas. (works out at 54 interviews NOV/DEC)

Cant believe the pay offer of US$3300/738, and US$3600/744 (Gross)

Thats about a 29 percent drop from "Deske's" $5100 Contract 12 months or so ago.

Have any of you latest interviewees tried to negotiate something a little more humane than this???

Cheers.
SA

[Beyond tha Threshold]

Hey Albatross

I will be doing the interview in November.

If it all comes back positive, I will be negotiating on the pay and bond.

I suggest we all do the same.

This can't go on.

Beyond.

[Deske1]

Dont take it!It simply doesnt worth.I even try to find the way out with my 5100.You will cry where nobody see it.

[mellofello]

How many hours is this new pay based on? Is it 70 hours, less or more? Do these figures include the market allowance or not and what is the housing allowance now?

By the way, has anyone (with cohones) recently attended an interview and asked why the pay is getting lower and lower or is the allure of heavier metal too much to pass up?

[orange555]

Hey MellowFello,

Not sure if things have changed buy FYI...the pay has traditionally been based on 70 hours FLIGHT time...that is FLIGHT time, not BLOCK time. I think CAL is the only co. in the world that does this. I was not aware of it prior to signing the dotted line....should have poked around a bit more. At the end of the day...I think you can equate it to an 80 hr normal block. I don't know exactly why the pay is going down but I do know it is contrary to industry trends right now. I think the reason is that they no longer are hiring with type endorsements so they think they can attract people to the equipment. The only way to teach them is to say no way. Eventually they will have to figure it out. At the end of the day they are playing the supply/demand game...and that will dictate what they offer. Lets not sell ourselve's short. There seems to be options these days...so I say we let them know it. Maybe even just mention it...they may sweeten the pot for you..it doesn't hurt. I won't restate alot of what has been said about CAL, but it is far from perfect. Look around really good before deciding! IE: Parc, Rishworth, Direct Personnel, Flight Int'l, WASINC, IASCO, Hawaii Aviation, Etc....
With CAL, be patient...people are leaving pretty fast....if they can't replace fast enough, they will have to get real!
Good luck.

[cal4ever]

- contractual details mention the term "living allowance". What does this stand for?
- Pension and Loss of Licence is not mentioned either, any delight?
- What happens if you are sick for more than 5 days in a row? Will your salary be affected or is an insurance kicking in?

Overtime Payment:
Overtime Hours are actual flying hours minus standard hours, which is guaranteed hours, 70h.

[Deske1]

There is no Pension Fund up to 15 years of service time.Simply not exits.

You will have 5 days of (paid) sick leave per year ,all the others are unpaid.Thats it.I think it doesnt need any more explanation.If You get sick,You may apply for unpaid leave or can use your Annual Leave.

Loss of Licence also DOESNT exits.

[INBKK]

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the info on China Air. I was looking at their website and see that they place a age restriction of 45 for applicants. Are they considering relaxing the age requirement. I would like to even get in a a cruise pilot, but my age is now 49. Yikes!
Jon

[Deske1]

I THINK THE TIME HAS COME FOR THE MANAGMENT OF CHINA AIRLINES TO REVIEW THE FIRST OFFICER SALARIES ON THE
B747-400 FLEET.

7000 USD/MONTH AFTER TAX + HOUSING IN BEIJING

November 2005
ACC B747-400 First Officer Positions
Please find below a indicative summary of the package for
B747-400 First Officers available with
Air China Cargo (ACC).
Basic prerequisites, as set by ACC, are a minimum of 500 hours on type,
and Total Flight Time of over 3000 hours.
Air China Cargo B747-400 First Officers:-
Term: - 24 months – extendable (For start immediately and into 2006)
Base: - Beijing (and possibly Shanghai)

Monthly Remuneration:
- US$6,000 salary net/month paid off-shore
During first 8 weeks of training US$4,800 salary net/month
- Overtime is paid on time over 255 hours per 3 months at 1/85th of monthly salary per hour
- Chinese income tax is paid by ACC
Per Diem: - US$1,000/month as per policy and procedures for equivalent personnel
Accommodation: - In Beijing: Hotel or allowance of RMB4,000/month (2 – 3 bedroom
apartment where foreigners live, nearby is a reasonably priced International
School, University, International standard golf course, new or recently
renovated 4 – 5 star hotels with gyms and pools, variety of restaurants, and
International Exhibition Centre)
Days free of duty: - 8 consecutive days per month (averaged over 6 months), during training 2 days/week

Travel: -
-
-
-
At beginning and completion (with excess luggage allowance)
3 international return air tickets every 12 months
2 domestic return air tickets
Access to ACC and Air China worldwide services for discount travel
Sick Leave: - 12 days per annum
Annual Leave: - 21 days per annum
Insurance: - Emergency medical/travel insurance provided to purchase Comprehensive Medical Cover (personal + family) at very
competitive rates.
Other: Maximum age limit of 56 years

Screening checks are to be conducted in Beijing immediately,
with travel and hotel provided. Please advise windows of your availability to attend checks over the next
month or two and to start in January 2006 or soon as possible thereafter. [SIZE=3][B]

[Hachiouji-shi]

deske1

well said. in the past, salaries are usually lower in mainland china compared to taiwan. now that you have put this thing about Air China Cargo up, it IS about time CAL take a serious look at the packages they are offering foreign pilots!

unbelievable

[Deske1]

So as the CAL contract says:
"Housing Allowance and Market Allowance will be reviewed and adjusted by the Company in December of each calendar year."

So its easy,apply for ACC,and in December take the 2 contracts and do the math.Not to mention,that in Taiwan,YOU have to pay the state tax(20%) even after the housing allowance,not the company does.

[Flying Mechanic]

Just out of interest all the Pilots leaving CAL, where are they off to?
Cheers FM

[grippen]

Who is doing the hiring for Air China Cargo and how do we apply?

[CDN_SplitS]

I applied 1 month ago and have will do the pre-interview this week...I have no jet time, currently have 3700hrs and am training captain on a King Air 100 in Canada. I have to say reading this thread has made a huge negative impact on my view of CAL... I cant see leaving home for the crap they are paying and the work conditions .

I guess I'll be asking some pretty pointed questions during the interview....

[exEVA3holer]

CDN splits

read this..... this is atypical chinese managements...

EVA work ethic
New Eva Air Office Employee Rules and Regulations



It is advised that you come to work dressed according to your salary. If we see you wearing Prada shoes and carrying a Gucci bag, we assume you are doing well financially and therefore do not need a raise.

If you dress poorly, you need to learn to manage your money better, so that you may buy nicer clothes, and therefore do not need a raise. If you dress just right, you are right where you need to be and therefore do not need a raise.

Sick Days : We will no longer accept a doctor's statement as proof of sickness. If you are able to go to the doctor, you are able to come to work.

Personal Days: Each employee, except pilots, will receive 104 personal days a year. They are called Saturday and Sunday.

Toilet Use: Entirely too much time is being spent in the toilet. There is now a strict three-minute time limit in the stalls. At the end of the three minutes, an alarm will sound, the toilet paper roll will retract, the stall door will open and a picture will be taken. After your second offence, your picture will be posted on the company bulletin board under the "Chronic Offenders category". Anyone caught smiling in the picture will be sectioned under the company's mental health policy!

Lunch Break: Skinny people get 30 minutes for lunch as they need to eat more, so that they can look healthy. Normal size people get 15 minutes for lunch to get a balanced meal to maintain their average figure. Fat people get 5 minutes for lunch, because that's all the time needed to drink a slim fast.

Thank you for your loyalty to our company.

We are here to provide a positive employment experience. Therefore, all questions, comments, concerns, complaints, frustrations, irritations, aggravations, insinuations, allegations, accusations, contemplations, consternation and in put should be directed elsewhere.

Kennedy
for The Management

[CDN_SplitS]

Somehow I can picture that being true!!!

I doubt I would take a job offer there - pay is too low, doesnt sound like they treat their people well nor does management seem to care...

Im married and have 2 kids - I dont know how easy that would be....

[BusTie]

IF THE PAY IS CRAP
IF THE MGMT IS CRAP AND DON'T CARE
IF THEY TREAT THE CREW LIKE CRAP

Then why are you going along with it? with your exp. of only light twin (oh sorry training captain) and NO JET time you will get $3600 plus housing per month. plus you just got an e-mail from Mrs. S that you need to put 20K before anything starts.

so you know all of that...right? then why are you being so lovely dovey with CAL with your e-mails and going along with the interview process? and down here you are complaining?

Try to be professional even at your level...regarding the attitude of how MGMT should treat the pilots you are JUST another typical north American pilot with union written all over his face.

Get real.

is your resume with jazz...oh shooot SORRY ...Air Canada Jazz? if yes then I would be quite and be happy that they even called you for an interview.

and beside, you mentioned staying home....just wanted to remind you that jazz offers 34,000K for dash 8 steam driven plane out of YYZ ..(with two kids, in Toronto? i don't know)

This is what you are going to do;

YOU WILL GO TO YOUR INTERVIEW DESPIT ALL YOUR NEGATIVE TRASH TALKS.

YOU WILL DO YOUR BEST TO GET THIS 747-400 JOB THAT YOU ARE DREAMING OF.

AND YOU WILL LEAVE HOME FOR THAT PRICE

AND YOU WILL CONT. TO COMPLAIN THE WHOLE WAY

SO STOP BS-ing US DOWN HERE

bustie