Virgin Atlantic to Sydney?

[HotDog]

South China Morning Post:
Friday, September 19, 2003

British officials bullish on air deal
Negotiators believe talks can succeed despite EU reservations over the legality of the discussions


JOSEPH LO



British officials are still optimistic that an expanded air services agreement will be sealed with Hong Kong next week.
They were speaking after the European Commission questioned the British government's mandate to negotiate, and amid opposition from some airlines to a new pact.


British and Hong Kong officials are scheduled to meet on Thursday and Friday to discuss Virgin Atlantic Airways' request to operate flights between Hong Kong and Sydney, and Cathay Pacific's demand for reciprocal rights to fly between London and New York.

But a shadow has been cast over the talks by a European Court ruling, handed down late last year, which requires a pan-EU nationality clause to be included in any such deals. This means all EU carriers would be entitled to the same rights as those granted by Hong Kong to a British airline.

British diplomats have denied that concerns over the legality of the discussions would impede the two sides from reaching a deal.

"The Hong Kong [negotiators] are fully aware of the position and have agreed to enter into negotiations with the UK on this basis," a diplomat said.

He pointed to a draft regulation from a June meeting of EU transport ministers which says member states can continue to conduct bilateral negotiations under certain conditions.


Hong Kong negotiators said they were worried because such a pan-EU clause would guarantee access to Chek Lap Kok for all EU carriers, even while some EU states, such as Italy, restrict flights by Hong Kong airlines.

Industry consultants in Britain confirmed that the commission had written to every major EU air-services partner to explain the new situation, mainly to persuade them to include a pan-EU nationality clause in any deal.

They said it was unlikely the EU would challenge a deal between Britain and Hong Kong. "I think the pressure is partly for show, rather than real," a consultant said.

Since the June meeting, Britain has concluded air services pacts with South Africa and Qatar. Qatar agreed to accept any EU carrier wanting the same traffic rights as the British. Even though South Africa did not do the same, the deal was signed nonetheless and the commission has so far not moved to stop it, he said.

The likelihood of a deal may depend on whether Hong Kong accepts the South African pact as sufficient precedent. Cathay's general manager of international affairs, Andrew Pyne, said: "I hope the precedent set by South Africa is a solid one."

While Cathay and Virgin are expected to be the main protagonists at the meeting, British Airways, Dragonair and DHL Air UK - the express carrier's British subsidiary - are also involved.

Dragonair chief executive Stanley Hui declined to comment on reports it was trying to delay a deal with Britain until after negotiations in November between Australia and Hong Kong. Those talks could determine whether the airline gets to fly the Hong Kong-Sydney route.

Hope it comes off, with Ansett gone it is extremely difficult to get a seat with an ID ticket. I bet this report wasn't Dixon's morning coffee either.:{

[Gnadenburg]

There is nothing in this for Australia or HK/China.

Dragonair would be better for this countries tourism industry as it offers very good access to an emerging tourism market out of(especially) and into China. Dragonair flies to 18 mainland Chinese destinations.

Can Australian Airlines offer services?

Why Branson? Force him to "invest" in an international arm of Virgin Blue-a hell of a lot more jobs for Australians then. He has just shown his loyalty to this country with creating an NZ offshoot.

Wake up Australian politicians!

[HGW]

Gnadenburg

Is this the same loyalty that Geoff Dixon is showing with Jet Connect?. Wake up yourself.

[Gnadenburg]

HGW

Dixon has made it clear all along, that due union agreement in lowering the conditions of his competition( I assume you are VB and about 50% cheaper than your QF counterparts), he would look offshore at cheaper alternatives.

Your good friend Godfrey has gone one better. Pacific Blue.

It's great fun to the naive, bringing down the evil competition such as Air NZ and QF, but eventually Pacific Blue will bite your ass. Whether it be pay and conditions or who gets to fly the Big Jets in Oceana!

Perhaps you should wake up to yourself. When Pacific Blue taxies past it is the young bloke sitting next to you missing out and if(and I hope not) Virgin Atlantic taxies by, say good-bye to what should be widebody flying for VB pilots.

There is nothing in this for Australia or HK/China-the Virgin Group cherry picking and not committing real investment as usual. Bring on Dragonair for the tourist industry and Australian Airlines for Australian jobs.

[CAPT146]

Dear Gnads,
I am continuously distressed to read the posts on this forum which are usually little more than juvenile verbal slagging matches with very little substance.

FYI: I have a very good friend who is a QF 737 Capt and I am a VB 737 Capt. We sat down and worked out that a VB Capt gets about 75% of a QF Capts pay. As I willingly work for a low cost operator I find my conditions more than acceptable. Plus I spent 6 mths in RHS (I had 10000 hrs when I arrived) instead of 10 yrs. This I also find acceptable. No I have never applied to QF, could never face the thought of being an S/O and calling the Capt. " SIR". But that is me and that is my choice, and you have made your Choices. I am happy that you are happy where you are and so am I. Please do not belittle me or my work mates with ill conceived remarks. Thank you

[Gnadenburg]

Capt146

If your so distressed Captain, why have you gone off on a tangent from the original subject and contributed to the juvenile joust yourself?

And please, so we can all keep our peace, lay it out on another thread how your conditions are 75% of those of a QF Captains.

Interesting "Choices" you have made too. 146 to Virgin Blue? Hardly the pillars of aviation conditions in this country. But has worked for you.

Back on topic. We can see your all right Jack. What about the F/O's you fly with? Will the Virgin Group's deliberate expansion outside of these shores affect them? Will they get the promotional opportunities you were afforded? Murmurs of "B" scale?

Better for Australia and HK to keep Virgin Atlantic out.

[HGW]

Gnads

You live in the past mate.

Dixon could have emulated the VB model but chose to go one step further by setting up in a country with a lower cost base. He had a choice and forced VB to match it. The same unwarranted fears you espouse for VB staff apply to QF also.

The young bloke in the other seat can fly for Pacific Blue if he chooses to, or even Virgin Atlantic under the same conditions any one else can by applying and if succesful leave VB. No one has a divine right to fly for Pacific Blue or Virgin Atlantic. They are separate entities.

This crap about "cherry picking" gives me the sh*ts. It is actually sound business sense to fly the most profitable routes for the sake of the workers and shareholders. No airline is a community service or charity. It is the fundamental principal of competition.

You contradict yourself with your support for Dragonair, mate. Lower paid staff, just what we all need. Trash the Aussie airline(Patrick's VB) staffed by Aussies, many who are ex-AN, and put in it's place a fantasticly run high paying Asian mob.

[Gnadenburg]

HGW

Agree comments re Dixon. But he warned the ACTU that the Virgin Blue precedent would force such measures as Jetconnect.

Jetconnect has bitten both QF and VB pilot's on the ass. And sadly, it is another story of poor pilot unity of which both parties are guilty. The expertise used to start Jetconnect pretty much all highly experienced 737 drivers knocked back by both the QF and VB systems. I am not ignorant of age, politics and 89 in the above, just a case illustration.

I don't understand your last paragraph at all.

My support for Dragonair was from an Australian tourism perspective, as that company will on fly to 20 mainland Chinese destinations- an emerging market. It was support in conjunction with an Australian airline flying the route aswell, say Australian Airlines or Virgin Blue.

You agree Virgin Atlantic is cherry picking and so do I. But we and the Chinese would be foolish to give up lucrative air rights, when our own airlines could benefit-QF, Dragon, VB.

Mixed in there was a comment on Dragonair pay. I would confidently say their cost base for staff considerably more than Virgin Blue

[SnapOff]

And I suppose CX aren't cherry picking when they are looking to fly LHR-NY. Any airline wants to fly profitable routes. A lot of major worldwide players wish to fly the North Atlantic, BA makes a lot of it's profit from it and so everyone wants a slice of the pie.
This will be a an agreement between the UK and Hong Kong / China governments. VS already hold route licences for various Australian destinations so the deal between UK and Oz has already been semi-confirmed. Really this is just tying up the loose ends for VS to fly the route, which they more than likely will, even if it is not through HK.
As for the investment side which you seem so concerned about Gnad, where will all the ground staff, office staff etc be recruited from. I doubt if VS will recruit in the UK and then ship everyone to Oz. So there will be more jobs for Australians, jobs in aviation do not stop at the flight deck door. Branson's and VS's investment in this route if it happens will have to be huge, more than likely involving new aircraft which = more flight deck crew and cabin crew all round. And as for his loyalties, I thought he was English, surely Australia and it's people should be pleased that any foreign industry wishes to "invest" down under.

[Z Force]

CAPT146, it would be interesting to compare your (duty and flying) hours to a QF captain and see which of the two works harder and is therefore better value for money. I was under the impression that although VB pay less, the QF drivers are cheaper to employ due to the CAO 48 dispensation.
Do any of you VB and QF drivers know how many crews per 737 in each company?

[Gnadenburg]

Snapoff

Most expedient in the best of British fashion.

Where do I start?

Firstly. This is about short-sighted politicians and unions giving the Virgin Group concessions and a free reign to firstly, lower conditions, and secondly and unbelievably, ship our jobs offshore!

There is something in it for HK to have Virgin Atlantic fly out of HK to Sydney. That is CX operates London-NY. OK. But what is there in it for Australia to continually give up our lucrative air routes to foreign owned entities?

Don't humour me with a possible Virgin Atlantic investment in this country. We have witnessed the lack of investment in infrastrucure and a lowering of airline workers' conditions to undercut incumbents. You will employ a handful of Australians operating from little more than a tin shed and contract the rest out.

"More Flight Deck and Cabin Crew All Round"- yes and they will be Poms! Not Australians!

With the help of unions, politicians and the demise of an incumbent this country has rewarded the Virgin Group with a successful airline beyond Branson's expectations.

Considering your own arrogant expediance I will join you. The Virgin Group has lowered the conditions of professional pilots in this country and is now shipping those jobs offshore-Pacific Blue and Virgin Atlantic.

The Sydney-HK flying should be arm twisted politically onto Virgin Blue or Australian Airlines.

Wake Up everybody. If not let's afford some protection onto QF and protect local jobs.

[Forward CofG]

Gnadenberg

It's called competition. If the Virgin Crews want to work for lower wages, then let them. They will realise sooner or later (probably sooner), that they will never be cheap enough for the bean counters. That's why Pacific blue is already on the door step within 3 years of VB starting up.

Branson has never promised any jobs on the international sectors going to VB (except pacific island runs which can be done in a B737). Which means the Virgin Blue Crews will NEVER get wide body experience unless they leave and go overseas.

Qantas is also guilty of cut throat techniques to lower the wages of their employees , who are at the whim of the accountants, with the starting of Australian Airlines and Jetconnect.

As for protection for QF. They have had protection for many years with the air srvice agreements between U.S. and Australia stopping a lot of competition from flying the pacific routes.

From what I can see, the Australian industry is melting itself down into a low wage industry , which I am glad to be far away from.

My advise is, If you can leave OZ for a country that supports its aviation industry and pays it's pilots a deserving wage.


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