Job satisfaction

[shaolin]

Just to research the realities of being a commercial pilot, could you please answer the following queries.


1. How satisfied are you in your job as a pilot?

2. Which aspects of it provide job satisfaction for you?

3. How many % pilots do you know who are happy or disgruntled with this job. Moreso, how many have left it?

4. If your satisfaction comes from actually flying, then:

a. Isn't that reduced somewhat, when most of the flying is handled by the computers (in commercial flights)?

b. Doesn't it become boring after a while, just like driving a car does.

5. What is the intellectual stimilation from flying? Although a more complex machine to 'drive' than a car; once mastered, there doesn't seem to be much stimulation mentally.

6. If your satisfaction comes from travelling, how much actual time do you get to enjoy your destinations? I would imagine, not much.

7. Does the job end up being stuck in a computer simulator of sorts and hotel rooms?

8. What effect does it have on your social life? I could envisage single persons having difficulty with stable relationships, whilst married persons leaning towards playing away from home.

9. Does it get lonely? I'm considering sitting in a cabin for the vast majority of the career, with either a co-pilot or no-one to talk to.

10.Are you still able to stay very healthy on it? Again, the long hours sitting, but because of the travelling, and shift routines; may be difficult to have regular training classes (eg. weights, martial arts etc.) ps. Hotel gyms don't count; as I mean free weights.

When I dissect it like this, it does seem boring; but I'm hoping the answers I get will prove me otherwise.

Thanks.

[shaolin]

come on, not even one person has answered.

[silverknapper]

try posting it where pro pilots will see it then

[shaolin]

oops.

done that.

how do I delete from this forum?

[strafer]

Edit your first post, press delete.

[Artificial Horizon]

All reasonable questions, I will kick it off with some responses to them, so here goes:

1) Being a pilot is statisfying, more for the fact that after so much effort, money and training it is nice to finally be there!

2)The best part of the whole job is on a grey bleak day when you break through the cloud tops into brilliant sunshine. Best office in the world.

3)Probably 85% of people I have met are fed up with working in the aviation industry and would gladly move on if there were other options. Problem is a flying career or qualification isn't exactly in demand in other places. Very hard to leave the career after so much investment into getting there.

4)The planes aren't flown by autopilot as much as you think, especially on the regional stuff. At my airline it is encouraged for the crew to hand fly approaches especially. To be honest you are glad to have the autopilot most times as handling the aircraft in the cruise is not actually that exciting and you will be only to willing to let the A/P do the work.

5)Not much stimulation, in training you have to learn A LOT, once online however after an amount of time things become second nature and your brain becomes a bit lazy. Don't forget though, with sim checks every 6 months you have enough to think about in the lull times.

6)Not much, it is not in the interest of the airline accountants to give you 'time off' at these different destinations. You will only have the minimum legal time off, for most that means 12 hours rest between duties, so not a lot of time for sightseeing. Could be better for the long haul guys though.

7)Yes, the plane will become boring after a while, and take it from me, hotel rooms drive you mad after you spend days, weeks on end in them. Certainly not glamorous.

This job like any other does become boring and of course you get wrapped up in the politics within your particular company. What you have to realise is that airline flying is VERY regulated and by design shouldn't be exciting. That is why I suspect you see so many career pilots down at the local airfield to fly their homebuilts or club PA28s. At the end of the day taking a light aircraft out is far more exciting. You will get bored and fed up at times but at the end of it all I wouldn't go back to the 9-5 desk job for all the money.:)

[shaolin]

Now this is getting confusing.

I was thinking of changing from solicitor to pilot, but everything I feared, you have stated.

Your reply certainly doesn't seem like the posts I read from pilots generally where they say the job is a dream.

Especially if 85% of people would rather change the job. That's even worse than solicitors.

Now, I can't understand the last line.

When you say that you wouldn't go back to a 9-5 job for all the money. You haven't given any good aspects of the job, to base this on.

[oapilot]

I am not completely qualified to answer your question as I am only just about to join a company having qualified in January.
However, to add to AHs' post I think it is fair to say that there appears to be a lot of discontent within aviation due to the erosion of pay and conditions the majority of guys have encountered over previous years. The reasons and depth of feeling are well documented on pprune and a quick browse should give you a good flavour of "what and why".

I guess for the newer guys getting jobs, most are happy to get whatever flying job gives them a foot on the ladder, and do not have the same feeling of being dumped on by such erosions of status and remuneration.

Can't comment on the figure of 85%, but from my own experience in insurance and banking, plus comments from friends in other industries, I suspect most people dream of changing jobs to something where they percieve they would get paid a fair wage and are shown some respect - the grass always appears greener on the other side - but hey, that's life in a modern business environment!

I changed because I always wanted to do it, and got sick of 9-5 style slavery, office bull and backstabbing. Whether aviation proves any different remains to be seen but from the folks I've encountered so far it's looking good.

The view from the cockpit is the best in the world and the feeling that all the hard work is worth it when you get over each hurdle is a real high. Will that persist - ask again in 10 years!

Talk to as many people as you can, and make sure you know why YOU want to be a pilot and what YOU expect to get out of it. You could always try watching a few videos of real crews making real flights and ask yourself, could I do this every working day until I retire.

Good luck, whatever your decision
:ok:

oap

[redsnail]

Been flying professionally for nearly 10 years. Done a variety of stuff, now want a jet job because it pays better.

1. Satisfaction. It's ok, has it's moments. Most of the crew I fly with make it fun. The flying itself is fine. Being treated like a piece of scum by management (one person in particular) is awful. In fact, this person is probably responsible for nearly every one wanting to get out. Seen some amazing things.

2. I like doing good landings in iffy conditions. Also, flying accurately.

3. Left this particular job/company or the industry? If it's this company, I'd say 90% of the crew are actively looking for something else. Turnover amongst flight crew and ops staff is very high. It's difficult to leave the industry as there isn't much of a demand for pilots outside the aviation industry. Need to have other quals. Having said that, I know many that have not made it as a commercial pilot. In fact, something like 90% of those I started with have not continued in the industry. A few have left it once they started flying.

4. Computers? What computers? If I have a GPS and an autopilot that works I am amazed.

5. Intellectual stimulation. Only when going onto another type or get curious about something. Guessing the next frequency is often the only stimulus these days. I try to keep on top of it and ask the engineers pesky questions. Many don't bother. Not paid to know more than you have to. Weather can keep it interesting. Esp winter.

6. Travelling. When paxing in the taxi for 2-3 hours or staggering (as a pax) onto the 737 zombied with fatigue I can honestly say it's not fun. Most of the destinations I see at night if doing a turnaround. Most airports aren't that glamourous. If I day stop somewhere then if the roster's ok I can go and explore. That's cool. More often than not I just sleep and eat.

7. Simulators? In my previous job yes. They are the work of the devil. This job, no. Hotel rooms. See above. All I care about is that the temperature can be controlled, it's dark and it's quiet.

I have written this under the influence of a disrupted sleep. Tonight I will fly from Coventry to Liege at midnight. Hang around the airport for a few hours waiting for Eindhoven to open. (Note, can't control the temp/noise, no comfy chairs). Fly to Eindhoven to wait around for the Ryanair flight to Stansted. Taxi from Stansted to Coventry to then drive home. This is not an "abnormal" shift.

[Maximum]

shaolin, Redsnails given you a very good account of what it feels like to be a commercial pilot.

In my opinion, flying is not a career, it's a vocation.

It's an itch you have to scratch.

It's such a tough job in so many ways that you just won't even last through training unless you absolutely must fly above everything else.

Do you feel compelled to read all you can about flying?

Do you spend hours using MS FlightSim?

Have you had a trial lesson?

You will know already if you want to be a professional pilot.

In my opinion if it needs a set of Q & A's to evaluate the pros and cons, you've already answered your own question. In fact, when I look at your first post again, in many ways you yourself have identified the main aspects of the job in your questions. What makes it worthwhile for us is that despite all that, there's still a spark of magic that draws us back to the cockpit time and time again, day in day out, year after year. If you have to ask what that magic is, then do something else for your own sake.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but this can be one hell of a tough business.

[A and C]

I,v done the night cargo thing like and redsnail tells it like it is but I got more respect from the company than i did working as a licenced ground engineer for British airways who were the worst people that I have ever worked for in the way that they treat there engineering staff.

Fortunatly more by luck than judgment I have found myself flying the 737 for an airline that is run by an enlightened management team ( at least on the pilot side ) and it is without doubt the best job that I have ever had despite the long hours............it shure beats spending all day in a 707 fuel tank with a rivet gun !.

We do have a few people who are unhappy in the industry but most of them are the types who have got to be a pilot via sponsership and have never had to do a " real job" , to them what most people call work would be an unwelcome and unplesant shock.

[shaolin]

Maximum,

I appreciate what you are saying, but I need to research thoroughly before committing the time and money required to this.

I've switched over before from a computer lecturer to a lawyer with all that entailed, only to find at the end that I had just switched at whim without researching the career thoroughly.

Now I'm 31 and don't really fancy sitting in my own boring office for the next 34 years helping out murderers and separating families.

Although I think complex criminal/family work is probably more intellectually stimulating; it just isn't worth the stress and financial cuts by the government any more; which are only due to get worse.

To be honest, the aspect which appeals most to me in this job, is the travelling and seeing more than London. That is definately a naive view from my research to date, but may yet beat a room without a view.

Even if I were madly in love with flying as you say; it's a bit like being madly in love with cars. The novelty factor would eventually wear off, and the practical side effects of the job would become more important; which is what I'm hoping to establish with this poll.

So far, I've had 2 different views.

1. 85% would like to leave the industry.
2. Only a few are unhappy.

Regards.

[Obs cop]

Shaolin,

There are 2 main elements that I would comment on.

Firstly your original post is written giving the impression that you are looking to highlight all of the negative aspects of commercial flying. The result is that to an onlooker it would appear that you are trying to justify to yourself why you should not become a pilot. I fear the questions and how you wrote them will most likely bring out answers which support your negativity.

Secondly I would like to raise the issue of being "maddly in love with flying".

I am maddly in love with flying. I have loved aviation and the idea of flying since I can remember and am now 29. That love has not diminished if anything it is greater.

My father was in the air force and I spent my formative years around aircraft. At 18 I ignored a solid university place and joined the Fleet Air Arm as an observer (airbourne tactician). I was with them for 5 years until I figured that I had to be a pilot, so I left to earn enough money to start flying training. Due to various events, I am now just starting that transition to commercial flying. To my mind, the love of flying has not and will never fade as you inferred.

As such I would suggest that most pilots still enjoy the actual act of flying an aircraft. Whilst automation may reduce that enjoyment for some, quite a few airline pilots can be found at flying clubs or gliding clubs flying and instructing for no other reason than they want to. The elements that repeatedly get mentioned on PPRUNE as causing the most upset appear to be management and terms and conditions relating to the work.

I would suggest that you don't look at commercial aviation as solely being fixed wing airline work. The whole scope is much broader than that and in any case, rather than seeing what the negatives are in relation to one aspect, look inwards and see what you want. You may find then, as I have, that the only thing you want is to fly commercially.

Regards

Obs cop

[scroggs]

I've been flying professionally for over 26 years, and I still enjoy it. I spent 22 of those years in the RAF. In that time I was given the opportunity to command a Hercules in all its roles, become an instructor (eventually the chief instructor) at a University Air Squadron, returning to the C130 as an operational (tactical and air-to-air refuelling) instructor and display pilot. I left the RAF in 1998 to join Virgin, where I flew 747s for 4 years, converting last year to the A340 (300 and 600). While I am still a First Officer, and thus have far less responsibility than I did in the RAF, I still find the job stimulating and enjoyable and I can, I hope, look forward to returning to a command in the not too distant future. I now have somewhere over 10,000 flying hours. I hope that qualifies me to answer the thrust of your question, though I won't do it point by point.

I have seen people from all walks of life and all motivations come into flying - indeed, I have interviewed and later taught many of them. There are those who feel that it's about status and reward, there are others who feel it's about professional satisfaction, there are yet more who just like aeroplanes. There are plenty, believe it or not, who just needed a job and kind of fell into flying through the military or another route, found they liked it and stayed.

Many of those who would like to fly never make it. Some fail medical or aptitude tests, some can't fly, some can't endure being in an aircraft! Many never get through the arduous examination phase, and yet more find that the never-ending round of CV-writing, 'phone calls, PFOs and failed interviews is too depressing to continue. Others simply run out of money. And we haven't even got to those who got the job yet!

After all that work, all those expectations, the reality of the day-to-day life of an airline pilot can seem to be a bit of an anti-climax. If you are lucky enough to have friends in other professions, you may well decide (as you have) that there's some greener grass elsewhere - outside aviation. It happens, though not that often. Most who succeed in getting their airline wings will stay in the job until retirement - but, this being an extremely cyclic and vulnerable trade, they may well have experienced the failure of a number of employers on the way!

This is a very stressful life on families. There are few airline flight decks where at least one of the pilots isn't divorced. The time away, the temptations in foreign resorts and hotels, with a young and attractive team of flight attendants (at least in my airline) lead to the inevitable encounters with all the emotional fallout that that implies. Many spouses just get fed up with their other half using home even more like a hotel than the kids do, and give up.

If you're getting the picture that the problems of life in this business aren't that disimilar to the problems in any other, good! The grass on any side of any fence is a continuously variable shade from brown to green. The shade changes with circumstances; it may be green enough for you, it may not. As Max implied, the people who love this job most are those for whom it's a vocation - they've got to do it, however they came by that revelation. They'll take all the problems of the industry, the effects on your health, the family strains, the gradually reducing status and rewards, and they'll come back for more. The rest mostly just accept that this is the life they've made and get on with it. Others, like you in your field, decide that their efforts may be better made elsewhere.

So, is it a good move for you? I'm afraid that only you can say! I, and many others, love it. You may not.

Scroggs

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

1. How satisfied are you in your job as a pilot?

Very. Love it. Every day is a little different. Wouldn't do anything else.

2. Which aspects of it provide job satisfaction for you?

Getting in a cold aircraft. Making it come to life. Having a cup of tea reading the tech log. Bantering with the crew. First call to ATC. Getting people home on time with the odds against. Watching the sunrise/sunset. Greasing it onto the runway. Doing a punchy approach brief. Learning something new. Discussing esoteric points of procedure to the n'th degree. Hand flying and hitting ever gate in the approach. Discussing the job with laymen. Being surrounded by professional people. Being someone who does something - not supports something.

3. How many % pilots do you know who are happy or disgruntled with this job. Moreso, how many have left it?

Disgruntled and moaning is de rigeuor for pilots. Left it - a tiny minority.

4. If your satisfaction comes from actually flying, then:

a. Isn't that reduced somewhat, when most of the flying is handled by the computers (in commercial flights)?

Getting the automatics to act as you want smoothly is an art in itself. Programming the FMC to produce the right result is satisfying and complex.

b. Doesn't it become boring after a while, just like driving a car does.

Sure, you can just accept an average routine performance and it can be boring. Its not thrilling thats for sure. But just like driving a car - you can do it a bit better if you try. Therein lies the satisfaction.

5. What is the intellectual stimilation from flying? Although a more complex machine to 'drive' than a car; once mastered, there doesn't seem to be much stimulation mentally.

It takes a while to master (well, get OK with) the basic operation. After that comes Captaincy. Thats a hugely intellectual exercise. How are you going to manage an equipment failure. The crew, duty hours, MEL, the passengers, the company pressures. You've got 20 different problems - none in themselves insurmountable but put all together your brain has got to be hyperthreading like mad to cope well. Then sometime you will just need to let go of some and let events unfold. Managing others performance is critical and standing back and managing yourself is the art. I haven't even scratched the surface yet but I can see its pretty challenging. Yes, a routine flight with a decent crew with nothing much happening is a walk in the park. Lots of times that happens. Sometimes it doesn't. And once every six months you spend two days in a Sim which will stretch your mental stimulation to the absolute max.

6. If your satisfaction comes from travelling, how much actual time do you get to enjoy your destinations? I would imagine, not much.

For me - never nightstop. Don't particularly like travel for its own sake, rather be home every night tucked up with the missus. But the time off and staff travel means you can travel on your own terms more than most folk.

7. Does the job end up being stuck in a computer simulator of sorts and hotel rooms?

Again for me no. I hate hotel rooms unless they are quite nice and my better half is in it. The aircraft is never a simulator. If something, even minor goes wrong, you very quickly find your adrenalin pumping and you become accutely aware that you are 60 tons of metal doing 600mph 6 miles up in the air and that you must land within 60 mins. I had a very simple pressurisation failure this evening, the alternate system took over and it was no big deal. But straight away you and your fellow pilot are straight into a highly alert posture considering every action and every option- every contingency. Its overkill, its training but its - to use the vernacular - cool. Witnessing your training taking over and everybody else perking up and doing as trained. Its impressive. Its satisfying being belt and braces. It does not feel like a simulator.

8. What effect does it have on your social life? I could envisage single persons having difficulty with stable relationships, whilst married persons leaning towards playing away from home.

Thats the worst bit. You will miss BBQ's, birthday parties and other celebrations. You will have to leave the pub at 9 and you will get in at 3am when everyone else has gone to bed and you are wide awake (note the posting time of this reply!). Partners won't understand sometimes and you'll be hacked off with having to miss events. You'll be driving to and from work knackered trying desperately not to die in a car accident. You'll do 14hr days and be expected to be sharp in the last 10 minutes. Its not right and truth be known its not safe.

As for playing away from home. Well - a large part of that depends on your own self discipline and what type of flying you do. For me I am home every night and live 50 miles from base so the temptations are few and - besides - I would be flattered in the extreme for anyone at work to fancy this vertically challenged Welshman! :)

It is an issue I believe when doing lots of nice nightstops with invariably nice young crew. Its just another part of the job role you have to manage. My opinon is that its a greatly exagerated part of the image of being a pilot. Sure, 25 years ago it might have been unusual for you or your partner to be away for the night on business with colleagues in a hotel. Now, not so unusual. With global communications now being so easy and affordable its easier to 'almost be there'. That said I would not want to be a long haul pilot with a wife and young family. You cannot expect your wife/partner to bring up the kids and not have a career of her own whilst you swan off to Tokyo. Not these days.

Its a negative aspect for sure. But, if you want job security, agreeable hours and local working then join the public sector.

Just don't expect to punch through the drizzly stratus, donning sunglasses, sipping coffee and commanding 40 million quids worth of machine.

You pays your money and takes your choices I guess.

I think the job has lost a lot of kudos, a lot of status and relative income in the last 20 years. But then so have most professions. For sure we have just passed through a dark period. But to look at my many professional friends; legal, medical and software engineers - I wouldn't trade. For a second. Not for a second.

Good luck,

WWW

[shaolin]

Thanks Welshman and Scroggs.

I'm getting a much more complete picture now, and despite the cross examination approach of the questions, was actually hoping for answers to take my cynicism away.

As they say:

A cynic is an optimist, with experience.

The answers coming in from the poll now are showing what it's like in reality on a day to day basis and how appealing that may be compared to the alternatives.

Thanks.