C17 at Gutersloh today

[fatjockslim]

I just saw an RAF C17 loading some AAC Lynx helicopters at Gutersloh to transport them to Kenya on exercise.
Can anybody tell me why the trooping/logistic flights to Germany use Hannover, Dusseldorf, Padeborn etc instead of this well equipped military airfield...seems an awful waste of tax-payers money in landing/handling fees. :confused:

[ZH875]

If my memory serves me right, I remember that the airfield was sold to a local German businessman when the RAF vacated the airfield, and before the AAC moved in.

He must be laughing all the way to the Deutchebank. But he is welcome to his Euro's.

[fatjockslim]

No, not true, this is a common misunderstanding. The airfield is British military and includes RAF Air Traffic Controllers.

[Tiger_mate]

The Army destroyed Gutersloh. It could be said that I have spent a day or two there, and when I revisited in 2001 I was appalled at what grunt mentality had done to this once important Airhead/VSTOL/SH base.
The businessman is probably Bertelsmann of Book / CD / Music money who owns a large bit of stadt Gutersloh, but who also was never given permission to build a civil apron on the other side of the River Emms (via a bridge) despite having the financial backing to complete the task (and the support of the stadthaus)
Happy days ~ A disgrace that the Army readers should be ashamed of, hell they even filled in the swimming pool!

[fatjockslim]

Bertelsmann lease a small area of the airfield to operate their business jets from and have been told to leave by next month!. The rest of the airside is Army Air Corp. The problem is not AAC. the problem lies with the other logistic units who only understand trucks and would dearly love to park them on that lovely long runway.:uhoh:

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

The RW is not that long. I seem to remember it was 7388ft. But that was when there were 2 sqns of GR3s, 2 helo sqns, Lightning dets, a busy air moves terminal and more visitors than you could shake a stick at.

WIWAGs unite.....................:)

[D-IFF_ident]

Runway length? Ground support? Crash Cat? If it's suitable then tell the right people - we are not them.

[BEagle]

It seems that the first thing the dung-eaters do when they inherit an aerodrome is to wreck it sufficiently to prevent it ever being used for real flying operations ever again.

Why didn't we give the bug.gers places like HMP K.....s or Y-Fali rather than places in civilisation such as Abingdon, Wattisham, Chivenor, Upavon.........

[wub]

Beags:

Isn't Chivenor Royal Marines?

[BEagle]

Regrettably, yes.







.

[CAC Runaway]

Back to the topic not the inter-service mud throwing...

The airfield is still British Army owned, but the main runway is leased to Bertlsmann. He pays rent for the use of the airfield for a set number of landings per annum to 1 (UK) Div and also pays for the upkeep of the main runway. The British have a clause in the contract which only allows a certain number of fixed wing flights to use the main runway per year..hence the use of Civvie charters to the likes of Paderborn etc. Hope this clears it up.

[fatjockslim]

The number of fixed wing aircraft in the contract only refers to Bertlesmann civil aircraft use I believe, there is nothing to stop military flights using the runway (C130's and a C17 landed in the last week for example).
Bertlsmann are being effectivly thrown out at the end of October, a strange decision as they pay for a large part of the upkeep of the airfield?:confused: Is this another military cost saving exercise?

[BEagle]

So who'll look after the runway then?

Or will the dung-eaters be allowed to destroy yet another good aerodrome:mad:

[CAC Runaway]

Nope there is definitely a limit on the amount of military fixed wing traffic allowed a year. Ask your RQHI!

[BEagle]

What's one of those - a Regimental Qualified Horse Inspector?

[Eight Eights Blue]

Firstly can i say Mr BEagle that I have always read with interest some of the comments you put on threads and honestly thought that you were a person with some considerable knowledge. Now I agree that I am not in that category so therefore ask
"what is a dung eater?
Moving on from that an RQHI is a Regimental Qualified Helicopter Instructor usually with a vast amount of experience and is proud of his job and title and does not take likely, pathetic p---ks like you coming out with docile decodes of simple Aviation abbreviations. Best you stick to your own threads and pass on your wealth of knowledge to the other up and coming idiots that are about to follow in your footsteps.
Stick to giving good advice and don't let yourself slip into the crap that sometimes goes on within these threads.
Oh yeh and by the way if Gutersloh was so important, then why did they give it up along with all the other RAF airfields in Germany. Answers on a postcard please.
Also wasting money on other airfields is usually common amongst the RAF, would you have stayed in barracks over night in a dingy room or would you have gone to Hannover and booked yourself into a nice hotel on the taxpayer of course. Nuff said.

[Detrimento Sumus]

Beagle,

It stands for Regimental Qualified Helicopter Instructor. And in my recent visits to Princess Royal Barracks the RQHI was doing an admirable job in the face of the RLC trying to turn the airfield into a truck park

Get back in your p1ssed-stained chair at the retirement home you ill-informed civvy.

Regards,

Detri

[fatjockslim]

As the dung-eaters have effectivly got rid of Bertelsman they may try and park their lorries on the Runway. So unless someone sees common-sense (not a term usually associated with the Logistics Corp) and starts to bring in trooping/supply flights, then the runway's days may be numbered. (overheard the other day that during the recent build up for Saddam, it cost £750 000 in landing/handling fees to Hannover, and this was only over a 3 week period. Meanwhile Gutersloh was able and willing but not used:eek:

ooops did I say Dung Eaters...my mistake, wanted to say Garrison:\\

[ScapegoatisaSolution]

Good on you BEagle!:ok:

[BEagle]

Looks like hook, line and sinker....;) Predictably.

But why a 'Wedgimental' QHI? Aren't standard acronyms adequate? Do they have 'Command' QFIs in other Services?

Had many a pleasant night at Gut before the dung-eaters took it over. Usually in an hotel because the mess, not 'bawwacks', was normally full of youngster Harrier mate Porsche-polishers.

Just hope the Rusting Lorry Corps are made to park their trucks, walk their labwadors, exercise their horses somewhere else other than on the runway!

Oh-and as for retirement, I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Pi$$-stained chair? No, usually a seat in business class thank you very much, Detriment.

Fair point about Hannover being used for grunt-twooping; why on earth it's being used instead of Gut is hard to defend. Did many a trip there; thieving little squaddies tried to steal bits of the aeroplane (e.g. life preservers) on more than one occasion.

[brit bus driver]

It's probably because the movers have got themselves a nice little number at HAJ now!

Lights blue touch paper..........

[Eagle 270]

Oh Beags, youve made the council estate flyers bite like a large Danish Trawler fleet. Naughty boy! And you being a civvy now! They are quite touchy arent they. Its probably because they have no one of worth to fight their corner apart from a desk officer who has 'underpants for aircrew' procurement as his primary role. Predictable to the extent that it really is more entertaining baiting rocks or blunties. Best you lay off them or they'll will call you a so and so next!

Teeny weeny airways, aircrew pacifier. You've got to be good at something. Not too sure what it is though. Soldier first?

230 aint what it used to be. But were they ever?

Yours, man at Binnsworth.

[fatjockslim]

As a matter of fact, I was speaking to the movers..yep, I can occasionally string 2 words together (between mouthfuls of dung):ok: and they were just as confused about the inefficient waste of money/resources etc.
Perhaps you could plan to use Gutersloh more often. The hotels in the area are rather nice:D

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

That's 2252m for you metric types..............:p

[BEagle]

Eagle 270, yes, I suppose it is a bit like cripple-kicking....

Thoroughly agree that if Gut is available 24/7, then it should be used in preference to Hannover assuming that all the relevant ATC, fire services, customs, health, immigration, fuel, steps, ground power, catering, ops support etc are also available 24/7......which somehow I doubt.

[Didntdoit]

....and that, BEagle, hits the nail firmly and squarely on the head. You also forgot to mention how much it would cost to maintain the airfield infrastructure to as a permanent, fw, military airfield....

but that's being picky.

Not too bad this side of the fence, is it?

[fatjockslim]

Yes, but where there is a will there is a way;)

A major problem I hear, is that the civvy airports like Hannover are not keen on DAC or even personal weapons being shipped through.......just what I heard....

Gentlemen (crabs and ex-crabs), you miss the point. The airfield is fully functional now. Lights, aids, ATC...and so on. FGT (Bertelsmann) pay for most of the running costs just for the privilege and prestige of flying businessmen into their own private little terminal...and the military get the field for nowt.....so we throw FGT off the airfield:confused:

Makes perfect business sense to me?!!

[Didntdoit]

fjs

No - I do not feel, speaking for myself, that the point is missed at all. Speaking as someone who regularly had to schlep from Brüggen to HAJ/FMO/PAD, to handle aircraft, I can assure you that one would have much rather handled military aircraft on a secure military airhead. :ok: However, Brüggen, whilst having a great golf course, was slightly to the left of BOAR's centre of gravity, unlike Gutersloh. That is another four beer conversation.

Maintaining a fully functioning air transport airhead capable of handling fully loaded pax/freighters etc is not a simple matter of switching on some lights and having someone around with binos and a radio (with, of course, nuff respect to my ATC colleagues). Fire cover has to be maintained to a certain standard, the surfaces have to be maintained and there also should be a certain level of navaids for 24/7 ops (I would have thought). So - set up is always easy, it is the sustainability that is not.

Whilst Bertelsman may well be paying a fair wedge for the privilege, I would amazed if what he pays would actually keep the airfield operational. Surely we do not have people in contracts who are that good?:hmm:

I'll get me coat.
:ouch:

[fatjockslim]

Gutersloh is a fully functioning, operational military airfield, with a proper military ATC unit with PAR, ILS and a rather nice runway. It has a fire section operating to H3A which would need augmenting to handle large aircraft on a regular basis.

We also have a nice golf course:D

It is hard to believe, that we really could have our cake and eat it, but that is the case, but now someone wants to throw away the cake:confused:

[Didntdoit]

fjs

Clearly, there is no better int than live humint. One for the planners then.

Exit; stage left.

[EJ Thribb]

When the Army took over Gutersloh in 1993 there was in place a rule that stated the airfield should be returnable to RAF usage within 30 days. This probably made a degree of sense at the time but prevented us from making small, but sensible, changes to the infrastructure to reflected its new use. Given the current usage of the other clutch airfields now the 30 Day Rule does not seem to have stood the test of time.

What many of us could not understand was why air trooping flights could not use Gutersloh as they had done while it was owned by the RAF? According the Air Traffic Flt Lt who worked in the tower, there was a further agreement that permitted only 40 (free?) military aircraft movements each year. For those of us who had previously air trooped through Gutersloh to go to Bunde or Osnatraz, being based in Gutersloh, on an active airfield, but having to travel to Munster or Paderborn to fly back to Blighty made no sense whatsoever. Clearly far greater minds than minder thought up that piece of brilliance.

Anyway, it was a great place where I spent many drunken and happy times.

[fatjockslim]

40 free :confused: no such agreement. It still is a great place despite the trucks!!

[Impiger]

Now lets not get childish about this. The RAF only gave up airfields it no longer needed and only once those decisions had been taken did the Army enter the fray. Wattisham is still available as an active airfield - albeit with a shorter runway I believe.

Overall the Army's approach to estate management/maintenance is not as good as the RAF's because culturally the RAF see the airfield as part of the fighting equipment and the Army view UK bases as garissons from which to prepare for ops.

[sparkie]

Gutersloh aaaah I remeber it well, in the days of Lightnings and Whirlwinds (230Sqn) , followed by 18 sqn with their noisier Wessex. It does however evoke even greater memories I got married at Gutersloh in the PMUB Church, in 1965..not sure if thats a good or bad memory, but we are still together so something worked. Only the Church has gone!!

Went back in 1995 for our 30th anniversary, full of trucks and other Army type things...but nevertheless looked after well by the boys in brown.

A C17 at Gutersloh wow must have been like heaven for the Air Tragics on duty. As for Herr Bertelsman...well he aint all bad as we still have one of his washing machines!!


PS Is the ghost of Goebbels still walking the corridors of the O/Mess


:ok:

[wub]

Ahhh...what a delightful Officers' Mess, complete with vomitarium in the cellar bar and Goering's Room with the collapsing light fitting, pleasant memories...and many nights when too many 'Wobblies' meant I can't remember anything at all :yuk:

[Bill O'Average]

I believe the light fitting scam is still there. Long live Gut O's mess!

I heard a story. In the zillion years that the RAF were at Gut, they suffered 5 RTA's. Once the pongo's took over and decided to change the road priorities and place large lumps of concrete in the roads and make parts of it 'one way', they suffered 25 RTA's in the first month of ownership. And this from the professional drivers wing of the dung eaters!

I await with baited breath to see what they do with Lyneham! Quick extension of SPTA and turn it into 'an urban training area'. God forbid!!

[fatjockslim]

There was a VERY good reason for introducing the oneway system - the Brigader did not like traffic driving past his office! Mind you, he initially wanted to use the ATC tower as his office, apparently, he could get an excellent view of all his trucks:ok: