is there anything we shouldn't do??? please share....

[sgarvey]

To put a different angle on most of our questions which seem to be asking what should we do, is there anything from your experiences that if you had the chance to go back and do it again, you definately wouldn't do. what are your reasons for this. Please share your experiences?

PS> im not starting this thread to be told not to go into piloting at all, i just want some constructive advice about it.

[silverknapper]

Start three threads on pprune at the same time basically asking the same question which all lead to the same answers.
Take it personally when people answer your questions with what you don't want to hear.
Rate your own post as 5 star when there is only a question on it.

[clearfortheoption]

Sgarvey,

I have now a fATPL and I am happy the way it went,however if I could go back I wouldn't go to the USA for the JAA PPL as it made my life more difficult for the rest of the training in the UK(CPL, ME, IR).

procedures can be different there (for example the way you join the circuit just to mention one),the airspace is different and RT is different.

I also did some hours building in the USA which I really enjoyed.

Just an opinion based on my personal experience which will be shared by some and not shared at all by others.

M.A.

[FlyingForFun]

Was just about to post, when I realised the Clear has posted something very similar. Similar, but not identical, so here goes:

I wouldn't go to the US for hour-building. I love the US, and I loved flying there. Problem is, there are so many good schools in the US that there's a reasonable chance you'll get to do some flying there anyway. So, if I could do it again, I'd use hour-building as an opportunity to go somewhere where there are fewer, or no, schools, in order to get more variety. Top of the list would be Canada, South Africa, or possibly somewhere in South America.

FFF
----------------

PS - Silverknapper, I think you're being a bit harsh on sgarvey. He's started some pretty appaling threads, we all know that, but this one actually has the chance to be very interesting. It doesn't concentrate on any one aspect of the training, and I'm looking forward to some varied answers, which hopefully we'll all be able to learn from.

[silverknapper]

A fair point FFF and I look forward to it! Apologies Stephen.

My two bobs worth.

Agree with clear on the PPL. Do it here IMHO. Having done it abroad it is more difficult to then come back here and re adjust.
Also agree with FFF, there are some interesting places to hour build - I did a bit in South Africa and had a great time, so good in fact I am thinking of going back in a few months time.
Don't do all the hour building abroad, for same reason as doing PPL here.
The golden oldie - never pay up front, and use visa if possible(apart from anything else-air miles)
Don't take any crap from your school - I did initally until a mate bollocked me. You're the customer, you choose an instructor that suits you and don't be afraid to change.
IOf your doing an intensive PPL, don't turn up without having at least started on the groundschool. Means you can relax a bit after your day flying, not be panicking cos you've an exam and you ain't got a clue

SK

[strafer]

Re PPL in the USA,

for the sake of argument £4,000 in the States (all inclusive), £6,000 over here.

That leaves £2,000 for 'familiarisation' when back in UK airspace. Is that not enough?

PS Giving your own thread 5 stars. Tut, tut, tut.

[happydog222]

the us has the best training around and is very cheap without all the hassle of the jaa. All the USA pilots are trainned to the highest standards and they love to fly rather than talk (jar) about flying as they do in Europe!!

[silverknapper]

is this a wind up happy dog?

[happydog222]

Sorry its not a windup? Why? Go to any of these other countries such as the US and they are trainned to the highest standard and whatsmore its pretty cheap to fly over there, rather than the costs under JAR that prohibits most people from flying often!!


Sorry if my post was a little brash!! JAR pilots are equally well trained!!:O

[mad_jock]

I have to agree with the others about doing the PPL in the states.

I did it and it wasn't until i did my FI course I understood why I had to work harder than I should have. So I don't agree that the US has a Universal we are the best. No your just one of the cheapest.

As for instructors in the states, yes you get good ones and you get bad just as the UK. As a general rule because they don't have the same amount of ground school to do they won't be as switched on with the theory. As for talking JAR so what, you need to know the JAR rules because thats what you are going to be working under

The RT is pants over there and it gives you no training what so ever for CPL/IR when you get back to the UK. I know people will say are but it works we don't have more crashes than UK etc. It may be true but it still means you have to work harder when doing your courses back in the UK.

As for the learning factor hour building, I have come to realise that banging in 2 50hr blocks in 2 weeks dosn't really help either.
You don't get the experence of different wx and you get up the learning curve but you come down just as fast.

I think the way that FFF has approached his hour building buying into a group and doing some decent xc's is far better than poking holes in the sky, just because you have 4 days left to do 20 hours in. And your most difficult challange is deciding if your bladder is going to last until your fuel runs out.

Choice of schools.

There is nothing better than talking to people who have been there done that. And to their faces as well, there are some cowboys out there with some very nice adverts who by reputation have screwed wannabies for years but seem to keep on getting away with it with the help of lawyers.

Payment

Never ever pay up front. And pay by CC if possible.

MJ

[Contractor]

Just my two cents worth regarding the payments by credit card.
I am still trying to get my money back from Mastercard after the folding of Pilot Assist. They initially refunded the money but then took it back again as the vendor apparantly declined the claim!
Duh! well of course they would, they're in receivership!

The "negotiation" continues and I am still out of pocket to a considerable degree.

So I wouldn't pay as much up front even on credit card, and I would and have done more background research for the next chosen school! :confused:

[onehunga]

If all of our aims are to become airline pilots then surely we should all be able to deal with different ATC/procedures/air space etc as part of our normal daily working lives. Unless of course some of us only want to be pilots flying around the UK which I would dare say would get pretty boring. Isn't it better to realise at an early stage during our training that the world is a big place with each country doing it's own thing to a certain extent and deal with it.

I personally love the US for this and am happy with saving some money along the way as well.

[Send Clowns]

Onehunga

You should not be expecting to fly to the USA in your first job!

There is a serious point here. My employers have found significant extra work is needed at the CPL stage for students who have done PPL or hour building in the USA. If this means extra hours they cost quite a lot with a CPL instructor. I had great experiences in North Carolina and Florida, but I also had over 100 hours of formal training in the UK, and I know which brought me through my CPL.

I don't know the effect on employment prospects, but if you were a UK regional airline and had two equal candidates, one of whom had most hours flown in the UK, one most hours flown in the US which would you choose?

[Flypuppy]

Once I got my PPL and realised that I wanted to do this commercial piloty stuff, I wouldn't have gone off and flown around drilling holes in the sky fat dumb and happy.

I would have contacted a CPL/IR FTO and asked them what would be useful to include in hour building. I would have asked what to include in flight planning so I wouldnt have difficulty with navigating properly. I would have asked to complete an IMC rating with the FTO to find out if this is the school I want to use and to get an idea of what their training methods are like and to see how to integrate that into my hour building.

I would not have forgotten everything I ever read in the Trevor Thom books about aerodynamics and the effects of controls. I would not simply assume that my PPL knowledge would carry me through the CPL. I would not make my mind up about FTO's based on second hand reports but visit a selection of schools before making an informed decision. I would not make the mistake of thinking that the cheapest school will save me money. I would not believe everything I hear form a marketing guy/girl. I wouldn't ignore the advice given to me by someone who had already walked the walk. I wouldn't believe the careers officer at school who said an airline pilot needs 20/20 vision. I wouldn't wait until I was middle aged and, errrm, cuddly before trying to become a commercial pilot.........

Other than that, its been good fun so far.

[A and C]

Pay up front

Think that you are better than the ground engineers because you are a pilot.

Think that if the RAF/BA do it that way it is the best way for you.

Think that passing the ATPL exams teaches you the first thing about practical flying.

Think that passing the ATPL technical exams letts you speak to the engineers on equal terms.


Pi$$ off crewing.

Think that your affair with a hostie will stay secret for more that five seconds.

Think that a licence means that the industry will give you a job.

And just in case you missed it the first time PAY UP FRONT !!!!!!.

[High Wing Drifter]

A and C, Are you perchance an engineer?

:O

[J-Heller]

God advice in the recent posts, particularly Mad-Jock and A&C.

I did my training in NZ, because I lived there at the time, and loved the country. Not to save money!!

Be careful of going abroad thinking you are saving money. It may well turn out long term that you have simply exposed yourself to a different country, had experience of that, but have had to pay the difference to re-adjust. Fix in your mind that you will need to return, if that is the case. And IF that is the case, consider your nearest training facility which, after careful research is going to deliver the goods.

Sorry, that sentence was too long. What I am trying to say is DO NOT FORGO THE UK FOR YOUR INITIAL TRAINING. For hour building after, these foreign climes are great, but if you are looking to return and fly here, my advice would be to train initially in the UK.

As I said before my initial training was in NZ, and I was very happy with it, but it was on my personal terms of wanting to train in that country, amongst the mountains, and at that stage of my life. Did I save save money over a UK PPL. Did I Bollox!....

Its not massive, but it matters....there is a whole different airspace and structuring to learn about.

All the best to you, whatever you decide to go for. If you would like to talk to me about the issues, please do not hesitate to PM me, and I'll send you my number.

Good luck,


JH

[mad_jock]

h'mm

aircraft engineers, I treat like any other human being.

And after working as a Profesional engineer I treat with the same respect as any other skilled technician who has more clue about how the thing gets fixed than I do.

For the life of me I don't know why they get so wound up when they are not refered to as an Engineer. I have alot more respect for artificers than some horrible little undergrad. Who has on paper all that is required to be called an Engineer but none of the common sense or people skills which is 80% of the job of a professional Engineer. And wanting to be called an Engineer which links you in with those creatures actually is undermining the skill level you really have.

And before you get wound up, I have worked in airline ops and as a FI and I have never been excluded from the hanger and usually included in the sticky bun run if kicking around.

Its a team game not a them and us. One cannot survive without the other.

MJ

[onehunga]

Send clowns

Think we are coming at it from 2 different ways but see things the same. I am guessing that the people you are seeing taking additional work for the CPL have "burnt holes in the sky" in the US. I have been very careful to stay clear of this approach and for instance did my IMC in the UK not so long ago. Then went to US to reinforce those skills ahead of embarking on CPL/IR. Read a lot on pprune and spoke to instructors before going so made use of my time in the air and put myself through the hoops doing things like VOR/NDB (when I could find one!!) tracking/fixing, time enroute calcs, ETA calcs, fuel burns, nailing the altitudes and headings that I flew at etc. Also took flight following whenever I could get it and on a few ocassions received radar vectors when I happened to be passing through busier airspace which made things more challenging and interesting. The entire aim was to keep my skills honed and not slip into bad habits like I hear so often other pilots do.

As to first job flying into the US, I didn't think I was implying this. But you should expect to fly outside of the UK and therefore get exposed to different ATC and therefore I see no reason why we shouldn't be exposed to this at an early stage in our training rather than later on. Flying and working with ATC in the US or anywhere for that matter gives you the experience of different accents and even languages which will be one of the challenges we will face in the future.

I agree about your point on hours and would not be so naive as to end up with a logbook full of predominantly US hours. Ultimately though the cost savings are to lucrative to avoid and I am guessing that my logbook will probably end up with 2/3 US time with the rest UK. Lets say that when you start applying for jobs you have for arguments sake 500-600 hours then I reckon 1/3 of that in the UK would still be reasonable but am open to speculation on this and closer to the time if necessary will ensure the balance suits as market conditions dictate.

[redsnail]

Apart from the obvious and pay up front etc.
Don't knock back the opportunity to assist an engineer in the hangar. You'll learn heaps.
Don't think that because it is expensive it is the best. Also, don't always go for the cheapest price either.
Don't be a UK is best flying snob. The USA isn't all sunny and flat. Neither is Australia or Africa. If a year or so in those countries means you get to do more than "just instruct" or "burn holes in the air" then it's a good thing. Doing night freight in the US in a chieftain or Caravan is better than circuits in a C152. Experience counts.
Be prepared to travel to get a job. Be prepared to fly a "lowly" turboprop or even piston.
Be prepared to do ops. You'll learn something.
Accept that there'll be hiccoughs and low days. Realise it and move on.
Accept that no one owes you a job. No one forced you to fly, no school has to find you a job.

Understand quite clearly that there are more pilots than jobs in the world.

Understand that you are supposed to have fun and enjoy it.

[Send Clowns]

You are right, Onehunga, though whatever happens I would suggesting making sure that a good chunk of hours have been flown in the UK, either the PPL and some hour building or nearly all the hour building and one of the ratings (night, multi or IMC - some time on an approved course).