Life At The Qantas Trough

[Don Esson]

The 2003 Qantas Annual report has just arrived and has some illuminating revelations for those watching the emergence of Low Cost Airlines within the Qantas group. For example, the Chief Executive of Australian Airlines had a whopping base salary increase of around 25%. His base for the year ended 30th June 2002 was $460,000. Twelve months later it had jumped to $577,500. Not bad, eh?

Furthermore, he appears to have been the only Executive to have scored a bonus. According to the report he collected $100,000 (yes, $100,000) as a "one-off, non recurring milestone payment during the year for the successful launch of Australian Airlines in October 2002." The report fails to indicate whether those lower in the Australian food-chain were paid a similar (or even lesser) one-off bonus but either way, it shows rather dramatically who is bearing the brunt of 'low cost' when it comes to Low Cost Airlines. The principle clearly fails to apply to everyone.

Just breat-taking, especially at a time when GD is preaching wage restraint and belt tightening all over the place: his base salary increased by more than 12% from $1.426m to $1.6m. Apart from the pigs at the top table, does anyone know of any salary increases enjoyed by others in the Qantas Group of the magnitude enjoyed by these two people? How can Dixon and his underlings preach restraint and so on when largesse at the top abounds? It is truly unconscionable. No wonder the unions and the worforce generally are concerned about the mixed messages they receive. And these people at the top wonder, often aloud, why no one believes them!

[Kaptin M]

Yes disgusting - and outright greedy - but, of course, not unexpected!
Take him out of the QF system for 6 months, and see if anyone notices the (non) effect it has on the company's performance.

The above article needs to be copied, re-printed, and placed on every pax seat, on every flight, at the next slightest hint of further threat to staff conditions.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft/halopig.gif

[GT-R]

1.44 posts per day.

You sad, sad man.

[Kaptin M]

The only thing sadder, would be someone who had the time to sit down and make that calculation. How dull and boring your wasted life must be, GT-R. And then to post his findings. Truly a waste of space.

And now - back to topic.
Let's see, Geoff's next plan is to replace as many full time positions with casuals isn't it.
After all, why NOT make Life as miserable for your fellow human beings as is possible.
Especially when one is doing it as TOUGH as he is! Barely eeking out a living, poor bu99er.
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft/halopig.gif

[halas]

Um, it's in your profile Kap.

No calculation required.

halas

[Oz Ocker]

Knock me over wiv a feather.
Usin long divide it works out that this bloke Dixo makes $4,383.56 EVERY SINGLE DAY of the year!!!!
Even when he aint at work e's gettin $182.65 PER HOUR fer 24 hours evry day an nite.

Some folks dont even git that in a bl00dy week, what e gets in 1 hour!
Is ANYONE relly wirth THAT bl00dy much.
Lucky b@rsted.

[Al E. Vator]

GT-R what was the use of your post? Who is sad?

As for QF how can execs demand such massive restructuring and cutting and give themselves such rewards? Why do unions not make more of this shocking double-standard?

[fright attendant]

The voting forms for the QF AGM are out this week. Use your vote and say "NO, NO, and NO" to that greedy lot participating in additional bonus schemes etc...

[3 Holer]

NO Way "flight attendant". I would much prefer these guys to hold stock in Qantas than pay them the ca$h.

By being shareholders themselves, it

aligns the interests of executives with shareholders, supports a culture of employee share ownership and acts as a retention initiative.

Plus, the 9 cents, fully franked, final dividend to shareholders was not a bad return.

[Foreign Worker]

Commanding a salary of this magnitude, Mr Dixon and his associates make a mockery of any calls they make, calling for wage restraint, and slashing of employee wages and numbers.

It is patently obvious that this is a clear example of an elitist, powerful few who are willing to abuse their positions to promote their own cause, at the expense of the majority.

The income quoted above, of $1,600,000 for 1 year, is more than the median income earner dreams of making in a lifetime.

The "trough" reference, and associted connotations, is suitably apt in the case of these QANTAS execs.

Despicable and gluttonous.

[Pete Conrad]

Lets pay us all huge sums of money, do deals and cry poor to the minister for Qantas and co, get them on side to keep the big bad wolf SQ from coming and giving people what they want - that being real service and standards, then I'll pay myself a huge bonus at the expense of the travelling public.

[TIMMEEEE]

OK whilst we're at it guys what does Huttner,Chris Corrigan and that whingeing sack of happiness Brett Godfrey get paid pa?
How about some transparency there?
I'm sure it must be available or someone on this site knows how much?
While we're at it what about equivalent execs/CEO's at BHP/Comm Bank etc and their wages?
Personally I think it should be performance based with respect to bonuses but the CEO of AMP may disagree.

Now lets not get hot under the collar because someone does an executive job and gets paid hansomely for it - anyone here would do the same.
So if I were to offer the VB guys $240,000pa to fly a 737 you would knock it back???..................yeah right!!

[Gnadenburg]

But Brett Godfrey and the current Chief Pilot of VB used their expertise to create something wondeful for aviation. The Chief Pilot didn't use his own capital but his expertise in selling out his own just as good.

Timmee don't go there, many have tried before, but Virgin Blue executivies are just different in the eyes of the above protagonists.

Although recent grumblings from the VB pilot camp may indicate a change in sentiments.

[Chocks Away]

Dear Fright Att.,

Great idea and good train of thought, voting NO! but with the huge bonuses come nice increases in their shares, so they can outnumber any such vote alone (thats what happened last year).

Worth a go though because this double standard makes me absolutely :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: ... especially when outsourcing to cheaper Kiwi labour too.:mad:

[Wirraway]

OK whilst we're at it guys what does Huttner,Chris Corrigan and that whingeing sack of happiness Brett Godfrey get paid pa?

Brett Godfrey was mentioned in BRW as one of the under 40s
top Australian earners at $12 million for the past year. I presume
this would include shares and bonus.

Wirraway

[halas]

Firdinkum:eek: :eek:

Crikey thats a lot of $79 fairs (fares) sold to make that bounty up.

No wonder they want to float. He'll pick up even more then.

halas

[Gnadenburg]

So Godfrey makes five times more than Dixon!

He pays his pilots 40% less but calls them "mate".

What an aviation sodomite!

Would the good Kapt M please superimpose a bent over Virgin pilot in front of his pig at the trough.

Or tell me it's different!

[Wirraway]

Not sure whether this is for the past year or total wealth.

Wirraway


BRW Sept 9

The Young Rich List


John Ilhan - $200m
Michael Boyd - $160m
Peter Hill - $160m
Edmund Groves - $146m
Evan Thornley - $135m
Nicole Kidman - $123m
Matthew & Nicole Perrin - $107m
Steve Outtrim - $73m
Craig Winkler - $71m
Greg Goodman - $66m
Aidan & David Tudehope - $66m
Elle Macpherson - $61m
Barb de Corti - $60m
Michael Gordon - $57m
Danny Wallis - $56m
Nick Noutsatos - $54m
Angus & Richard Grinham - $50m
John McGrath - $50m
Andrew & Paul Bassat & Matthew Rockman - $40m
Russel Crowe - $40m
Elias Jreissati - $40m
Darren Hayes & Daniel Jones - $39m
Harry Kewell - $39m
Gary Ebeyan - $37m
Jason Hart - $36m
Luc Longley - $36m
Maxine Horne & David McMahon - $35m
Pat Rafter - $35m
Kylie Minogue - $34m
Sonia Amoroso & Peter Nicholas - $25m
Robert Clark - $25m
Andrew Barlow & Adrian Giles - $25m
Grant Kenny - $23m
Lleyton Hewett - $22m
George Holman - $21m
Mark Chiba - $20m
Collette Dinnigan - $20m
Sherman Ma - $19m
Mark Barnaba - $18m
Natalie Bloom - $17m
Tom Potter - $17m
Cate Blanchett - $15m
Gordon Fell - $15m
Will Ricker - $15m
Janine Allis - $14m
Douglas Carlson - $14m
Suzi Dafnis - $14m
Daniel Haigh - $14m
Karrie Webb - $13m
Brett Godfrey - $12m
Jo Horgan - $12m
Robert Newman - $12m
Guy Pearce - $12m

===========================================

[Kaptin M]

"Or tell me it's different!"

In actual fact, Gnadenburg, perhaps you put the cart before the horse asking that question, as in your previous post you opened with, "But Brett Godfrey...used (his) expertise to create something wondeful for aviation.".
Quite so! It was Brett Godfrey`s OWN business plan that was used to CREATE & GROW VB from nothing.

The VB staff have seen some IMprovements over time.
OTOH, Herr Dixon`s strategy would appear to be one of (as stated by Foreign Worker) "abus(ing) their positions to promote their own cause, at the expense of the majority.", ie. degrading the incomes of the workers at the coalface with the one hand, whilst scooping the money saved and pocketing it himself, with the other.

Let`s face it, with the resources behind QANTAS - financial and personnel - just how hard is Dixon`s job?
I`m sure that there is another Dixon - initial 'M' - who could just have successfully started an "Australian Airlines" of his own, given access to the same resources.

However, it is the sheer hypocrisy of Herr G. Dixon, who willingly accepts an INcrease to his already extremely high salary, but demands a DEcrease of many who are earning less than 5% of his.

[Johhny Utah]

Kaptin M - I think your judgement is being clouded by your ill feelings towards Qantas & your support for your former colleagues who are with DJ.

You state that Quite so! It was Brett Godfrey`s OWN business plan that was used to CREATE & GROW VB from nothing.

And what might that be? Start up a business with ridiculously where you pay staff ridiculously low wages, but employ well paid PR staff to make them think they they are 'keeping the air fair' in sticking it to the established competition?

Some would argue that this is smart business sense - I guess each is entitled to his own opinion. However, in the very next paragraph, you let fly by describing Geoff Dixon as : degrading the incomes of the workers at the coalface with the one hand, whilst scooping the money saved and pocketing it himself, with the other.

Given the relative salaries (& associated packges) of the 2 men, and the relevant pay levels of their workforces - who would appear to be degrading the incomes of the workers at the coalface with the one hand, whilst scooping the money saved and pocketing it himself, with the other to the greatest extent? I'll give you the answer - it's not Dixon, but the other guy...:mad:

It is obvious that Goddfrey, Huttner et al stand to make an absolute fortune when DJ is floated (could this be the reason they are so keen to push ahead with a float despite the current downturn in the aviation market?). And at the end of the day, they have done so all at the expense of their staff.

Is it hypocrisy that Godfrey et al stand to make millions from the float of DJ early next year (after having received a hefty bonus in the form of a very well priced real estate deal not too long ago - DJ island anyone?) on one hand whilst on the other hand claiming that their already low paid staff are now too expensive to compete & therefore need to be relaced by overseas based crew...? I put it to you that it is

Perhaps it's time you took off the blinkers and looked at it from a different point of view...

p.s. I'd be most interested in what improvements DJ staff have seen over time, particularly in light of the recent launch of Pacific Blue...

[Hellsbells]

Hmm, the Fin review reported several days ago that Godfrey reportedly owns most of the 4% of VB shares that are held by staff. With the company valued at up to $2 billion that makes for a very nice windfall - guess he'll be moving up the BRW list of wealthy under 40's. Of course any movement downwards in the share price after the float will impact so I don't think he'll be handing out bottles of Grange for xmas to those on the coal face !

The issue of stock options for CEO and board members has rather been done to death over the last 12 months worldwide so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Renumeration packages in Oz for these guys are still way behind the Europeans and USA. It's life.

[Don Esson]

I am disappointed that this thread has developed into a Qantas versus Virgin Blue pay debate as it is just not poissible to reasonably compare gorillas with monkeys.We should focus our minds on the sheer greed and rapaciousness of those at the top of Qantas and Australian Ailrines and compare that with the messages of reastraint, doom and gloom that these people seem to be always preaching and forcing on the backbone of their comapnies. Clearly, low cost and restraint do not apply to anyone at the top trough at the Rat and its off-spring rodent.



:E :E :E

[Kaptin M]

My personal view of of the situation, Johnny, is that VB employees were well aware of what the conditions of employment were, when they applied for the available positions.
VB pilots have seen their incomes increased, with further increases agreed to, and scheduled for next year.
I understand there was a bonus paid out last year as well.

On the other hand, QF employees also knew their terms of employment - and have no doubt structured their mortgages around the same. If Herr Dixon goes ahead with his plans to replace full-time employment with casual - or worse termination of employment - the effect on many families will be enormous.
There has to be some responsibility on the part of employers to their employees.
IMO, Dixon is being totally IRRESPONSIBLE in accepting an enormous salary for himself, whilst insisting on reducing the meagre wages of the mignons, on the grounds that QF can't afford them.
I suggest that if QANTAS executives are truly convinced that shaving off a few dollars off salaries here and there will make the difference between QF surviving or not, they should take a good hard look at their OWN incomes, and reduce them by several hundred thousand dollars.
Surely a cap of around $500K for the GD's is as much as they are worth.

Dixon & Co are making their money by TAKING AWAY from people.
Godfrey, Huttner, etc are making their money by selling/capitalising (on) IDEAS - not PEOPLE!

[Pete Conrad]

Here Here Kap!!

[bitter balance]

Kap, its great to criticise airline managers of all descriptions as the "water lilies of aviation" and make several heavy swipes at Geoff Dixon. After all, you can probably put up what resembles a sound argument that many would agree with. But how can you post with a straight face that it applies to everyone but VB? You must be extracting the piss. If so well done, you've had me going! If CEOs are worthless and contribute so little to companies that no one would notice their absence then surely this applies equally to Brett Godfrey and Geoff Dixon?

I know at least one location where those handling VB bags have had at least two pay cuts in 18 months. Is this cause to spout emotive rubbish about VB selling/capitalising on people and not ideas? No, but it demonstrates that under the marketing hype there is a hard headed business acumen that is actually responsible for their success.

Good on them for being successful. Good on BG for doing an excellent job as CEO. But lets not delude ourselves that VB's personal faeces aren't odorific.

[RYAN TCAD]

Meanwhile, and 'back at the ranch'- Dixon relaxes by the seaside in his luxury apartment on the Esplenade at Balmoral Beach!

By the way, - who does own that black sports Merc with the rego - VH-7770 (black plates) that was parked out the front?

Anyone you know?

BO!

[Pete Conrad]

Wouldn't of been last night, he was offending everybody with his ranting and raving at the safeskies conference.

[Johhny Utah]

Out of interest - how many staff have been out & stayed on 'Virgin Blue island' - after all, that was the intent, right?

As Richard Branson said at the time “What makes Virgin so special is our people. This will be a wonderful retreat for them and it will also be a great way for our team to spend time together and to get to know each other outside of a work environment. It will be a lot of fun and I am looking forward to spending more time in Australia and sharing this delightful island with our wonderful team.”

Or perhaps what he meant was I think that this will be a fantastic bonus for certain members of my management team for managing to get our workers to thank us for employing them for next to nothing. Why pay a bonus & have the press all over me when I can get some more good 'PR spin' & show the general public yet again what a good bloke I am. Ha!

[bonvol]

And this from yesterdays Australian..

MARGIN CALL MICHAEL WEST
AUSTRALIAN 18/09/03

Worshippers of greed creed
If the season just past of company profit reports brought gratification, and the odd disappointment, present times herald envy and outrage.

For the season of annual reports is upon us. There will be revelations of greed and excess. Executive option schemes, extravagant salaries and bonus packages masked in clever guises - disguised, rhetoricised and buried in miniscule print.

The uninitiated are best advised to head directly for sections titled "Related Party Transactions" and "Executive Remuneration" or such.

You will find the good stuff there, and be suitably outraged.

Mind you, we have to concede that executives themselves cannot be entirely faulted for their excess. Who wouldn't take it if they could get it?

It is the boards that decide executive pay. Their decisions are, in turn, rubber stamped by remuneration consultants - a breed of bootlickers that has never been known to suggest that anyone (who pays them) is overpaid.

Then shareholders get the opportunity to vote on remuneration, once a year, at the annual general meeting.

It is a sad fact that Australia's big companies are mostly controlled by institutional shareholders who find themselves testicularly challenged when it comes to decrying executive excess.

There is a growing retinue of fundies - the likes of Peter Morgan at 452, John Sevior at Perpetual, the odd-bod at the AMP and perhaps less than a handful of others - who might express dissent on behalf of their policy holders.

But these lonely voices are seldom enough to alter the course of spiraling executive remuneration, Again, this year, the growth in pay to directors and executives will outstrip earnings growth.


Dining out on the Roo
A perusal of the Qantas annual report provides a very fine starting point for anyone who would care to be affronted.

Here is a company that enjoys unusual protection from competition via the taxpayer and the federal Government.

Yet last year the board lavished themselves with the dollars of their shareholders despite a share price that went nowhere and earnings per share that dived from 29c to 20c. Lower profits but higher pay.

CEO Geoff Dixon enjoyed a 12 per cent pay rise, with the imprimatur of the Qantas directors, to $1.64 million.

The PR angle was that Dixon sacrificed his performance bonus. But if you don a deerstalker and break out the magnifying glass and the spotlight you find $653,868 in baksheesh from a "long-term incentive share plan".

Chairman Margaret Jackson helped herself to a 14 per cent increase to $372,735. The salaries of Peter Gregg (up 33 per cent plus $294,493 in incentives), John Borghetti (up 31 per cent) and Denis Adams (up 25 percent) - to name but a few - are completely out of sync with the fortunes of shareholders.

Qantas PR will tell you it was a tough year. SARS, chaos in the international aviation industry and so forth. The poor old red roo might not even survive!

The reality is that wealth is a zero sum game. You either get richer, or poorer. Shareholders got poorer, directors and executives got richer.

And the latter are the stewards of somebody else's money. They are no Gerry Harvey or Kerry Packer. Their own capital is not at risk.

Meanwhile, staff - at least those who kept their jobs - managed a 1.5 percent rise while watching on as commodious new offices were constructed for their corporate overlords and as the chorus of customer complaints grew ever more deafening.

And there is always something more. The small matter of "Post-Retirement Benefits" for executives and executive directors of $1.76 million. That is a lot of free flights. Why? Can't these people afford to fly with, perhaps, a price discount for years of service?

It gets worse. Non-execs are also in on the scheme to the tune of $385,650.

Qantas frequent fliers, whose angry mail we often receive here, are about to be stiffed to the tune of 40 per cent in January. No doubt the chosen few at the top of Qantas will rank ahead of the company's most loyal customers when it comes to getting a seat.

Yet Qantas is only one leading corporate from which we can expect higher executive pay for lower bottom-line performance. There are many more to come. One can only hope that the Government's CLERP 9 proposals will give shareholders a better say in remunerating their employees directors and executives.

Let's face it, $300,000 buys you a nice house in a nice suburb and gets the kids private schooling. Any more ought to hinge on performance.


[email protected]

[Gnadenburg]

If QF pilots can keep anywhere near their current conditions, Dixon a good bloke!

QF pilots may well be about to get a taste of John Anderson and a political shafting. NZ pilots flying domestically to make QF wages more competitive aswell as open skies agreements which will see QF profitable routes cherry picked. Not to mention the assault from Godfrey who is lowering conditions further with Pacific Blue.

Something will give. Air NZ or QF wages and conditionns?

I don't know why you can't see a forest through the trees Kapt M. Maybe you should have a beer with Virgin Blue rank and file and not the upper echelon elite-who may well get "evil" bonuses for shafting their fellow pilots.

Again, if QF pilots keep a semblance of their conditions, Dixon is all right!

[rtforu]

So whats new here? Hasn't it always been the case that certain people have clawed thier way to the top of organisations and managed to secure huge incomes. So what! Nice work if you can get it.

Yes it's true that pilots salaries and conditions are continually being degraded but to some extent we are probably partly to blame. As a group we have never got it together and really come up with any countermeasures to arrest the continual decline. Instead, all we do is fight amoungst ourselves and look in other peoples back yards, ie Dixon and co, and whinge.

[FatEric]

Hey Kap.

Do you see why people think you are hypocritical when you defend VB’s pay? It is considerably less than what you fought the war over. For reasons of consistency, shouldn’t you be advocating a massive pay rise for the boys in Brisvegas? The girls too.

Before I get attacked for my comments about VB pay – I would happily do the job but alas, I don’t have the correct endorsement lah. Dash 8. Or Saab.

[Kaptin M]

Feric, there is nothing MORE in the world that I (along with everyone else) would love to see than the VB staff getting HUGE salary increases. However they are where they are for the time being, and I'm sure that those within Virgin Blue will be working to improve their lot.

The issue at hand, though, is that of EXCESSIVE salaries and BONUSES paid out to the QANTAS upper level management - obviously an issue that is not limited only to them in light of the resignation of the Chairman of the NYSE - Dick Grasso - following a public outcry over his excessive pay package.

The article written by Mr Margin, as posted by bonvol adequately sums up a lot of my feelings as well. Again however, the biggest problem I have with the QF execs' remuneration, is that they see absolutely nothing untoward in accepting MILLION DOLLAR PLUS pay packets for themselves which have been gained by TAKING AWAY from people who are ill able to afford it.
It seems very UN-Australian, imo.

[Wizofoz]

VB employees were well aware of what the conditions of employment were, when they applied for the available positions.

Kap,

You therefore have no problem with the level of pay at Pacific Blue, Jet Connects or Skynet Asia as the same applies. Correct?

[Kaptin M]

And as you have no problem with Scab Net Asia salaries, Wiz, then you would be in concurrence with the VB salaries as well no doubt.
This discussion is about "Life At The QANTAS Trough" - and NOT pilots' salaries. There are other threads running if you want to raise those issues there.

You really do find it difficult to stay focused, don't you Wiz! :rolleyes:

[Queentual]

To enlighten those that are brainwashed, QF Pilot salaries are not high, they are Sh*t compared to every alliance partner and compared to QF's competition. As for VB salaries, they dont even compare to unskilled labour. Dont set that as a benchmark just because thats what you are earning. An F/O in QF on a 767 or 747 earning $120.000/yr dosent even come close to my brother in laws income as a brickey. He paid $8000 in tax last year whilst I paid $40,000. He thinks I am an idiot. So if Im an idiot at QF, what are the guys at VB who regard my salary as high?? How much lower can you go below idiot???

[Dehavillanddriver]

Queenie,

You are talking about two different things

On a pre tax basis even VB pilots are well paid in comparison to the community.

Your brickie brother in law has a higher AFTER tax income because he pays less tax.

He probably qualifies for all sorts of government payments - family benefit part A, health care card etc because of his "low" taxable income.

You should be direct your anger at the government, who has set up the 2nd highest taxing country in the world after Sweden (?).

With your tax bill of 40 grand (and mine) - you paid more tax than most people earn in gross salary each year - and they bring up a couple of kids and pay off a mortgage.

Have a look at what Doctors earn, and what they had to do to earn that much, and what they have to pay out to earn that much and then tell me that VB pilots get paid "idiot" levels. Don't forget that they have to pay their own super, as well as pay someone else to run their practice when they are on leave. Factor all that in, and then add our salaries, loss of licence payments, super etc together and then do a side by side comparison - you will see that we are not that badly off - except they have more deductions because they run a business.

By all means strive for better conditions, but do not lose sight of reality and the reality is that any pilot flying for VB or QF is getting paid well for what they do.GA on the other hand is crap!

You can't compare Australian salaries to foreign salaries because the cost of living isn't comparable - on the McDonalds index QF guys are NOT getting significantly less than their alliance partners.

[Al E. Vator]

rtforu - the best few sentences I've read for a long while...."Yes it's true that pilots salaries and conditions are continually being degraded but to some extent we are probably partly to blame. As a group we have never got it together and really come up with any countermeasures to arrest the continual decline. Instead, all we do is fight amoungst ourselves and look in other peoples back yards, ie Dixon and co, and whinge". Well said.

I couldn't agree more. Whether those not involved agree or not, this catalyst for this rot was 1989 and sadly it has only got worse since. Now we have VB pilots 'undermining' QF pilots, disenfranchised GA pilots bitter at lack of career advancement potential, QF pilots undermining CX colleagues and the tax-breaks they previously achieved and amateurs with political clout determining Aviation policy in Canberra. We sit passively by and the best we can do to arrest this decline in snipe at each other like little girls on PPruNe.

I watch these pages where pilots degrade other pilots and I hang my head in sadness. A once proud profession is (by it's own doing) destroying itself.

As much as I hate to admit it, I realistically think there is little chance of Professional aircrew in this country uniting as a cohesive group with one determined and respected industrial representative.

Instead of whinging about Dixon (which I am indeed guilty of too because he is a hypocrite) get in there, get cohesive as an industrial group and do something about it.

Get the AFAP and the AIPA back together, get some unity and cohesiveness, stop bitching and do something concrete to improve your lot. Volunteer your time and effort to regroup and rebuilt this shattered industry. If you as a National Jet Captain or 767 F/O are struggling financially now, how do you think your lot will improve if you don't fight to improve it?

It certainly won't happen by moaning on P bloody PRunNe!

And what are the chances of my idealistic concept being realised? I am sure responses on this and other threads will amply demonstrate why we are where we are :( .
==============================================
............oh and Dehavillanddriver, I'm sorry but from my fairly extensive research on exactly this issue may I humbly suggest your post is miles off course there!

If you really want an indication of how poorly paid Aussie pilots are, try to get a peek a report published annually by a Middle-Eastern airline. This report graphs global airlines against each other and is completely adjusted for cost of living and after-tax income in that country, so a fair comparison can be made.

The report amply demonstrates Qantas pilots are paid completely C RAP with a capital C, essentially the cheap white trash of the airline world and the Virgin Blue salaries are simply a joke.

There should never be the mentality that "Oh my mate does X for a job and only gets paid Y so I should be happy I guess". Instead we should look at what our colleagues elsewhere earn and aim to at least parallel that.

Globally we have a very long way to go to catch up and to do that we must get cohesive first.
:rolleyes: But I suspect that ain't going to happen.

[Johhny Utah]

Al E. Vator - why don't you enlighten us all with some facts & figures from this wondrous book of yours - back your argument up with some hard facts perhaps...?:rolleyes:

[Andu]

Get the AFAP and the AIPA back together These are by far the wisest words said to date on this subject.

[woftam]

Yes Andu, that's what needs to happen for sure!
But unfortunately I don't like the chances of that happening.
Too many want to hang on to the past rather than look to the future.
The industry will be raped while we re- arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.
A united front is the only chance we have, and PLEASE let's not turn this into another 1989 sniping match about unity or lack thereof.
It's really been done to death guys.
That was then and now is now.
AIPA and AFAP how about it?