Poor Origin Pacific

[BCF Breath]

Poor old Robert bleating recently about Air NZ's increased domestic flights....

"They're only doing it to push us out........" Blah, Blah.

Hasn't he heard about competition??
Or how successful the new Express Class is??

Of course anything that anybody else does, is against HIM, when will he grow up?? .....And look after his pilots......

Just another whinge to get some free publicity again...

[Captain Condom]

Couldn't agree more. What does he expect ANZ to do - sit back and ignore him. If he hasnt got his spies checking up on what ANZ is doing then he doesn't deserve to expand.

Can't believe the business model he appears to use - continually train new people rather than pay decent wages so staff stay. Most pilots look at it now as a training company - may bite him if the pilot movement continues.

[Tape It Shut]

I went on the Origin ATR the other day. What a heap of junk it was. The interior was filthy and it rattled worse than an old F27.

[BCF Breath]

Cripes!!!

You remember something other than the noise of the F-27!!

[spindoctor]

Whats wrong with the F27?

Can get in and out of most NZ airports (that were built for them in the first place) with good pax numbers and their bags, not that fast but not that bad (tas about 240kts), stand up cabin, big windows, bit noisy but I think less so than the B1900.

Oh and nice to fly.

In fact it is oft said that the only replacement for a F27 is another one ! :8

[BCF Breath]

I didn't say anything was wrong with them. Just that they are noisey!! And you're right about the Beech. And the SAAB as well inside. Bring on ANR for cabins.

I know them well. Many hours spent at low level in the Southern Alps looking for ELBA's. As an observer.

And I see that Poor Robert has now gone crying to the competition watchdog complaining that Air NZ has only increased its frequency on those routes operated by Origin.
Gee, maybe they were operated by Air NZ / Link PRIOR to Origin coming in...???

Maybe he only chose to operate on those routes that were profitable (and he'd know) and that they happened to already be well serviced by ANZ...??

Does he think Air NZ is going to just let him do what he wants???

[currawong]

From what I hear over this side, it is the use of tax payers money to do this that has people looking sideways at the issue.

I'm all for competition. Hard to compete with Govt. money though.

[splatgothebugs]

The link lads are owned by Air NZ but operate as individual companies. If Air NZ was to go under tomorrow the domestic lot would have no problem suriving. As far as tax money goes it's not really an issue.

[Wirraway]

Mon NZ "Dominion Post"

Airlines' war of words escalates
15 September 2003
By KAREN CHAN

Origin Pacific has threatened to begin competing with Air New Zealand on the valuable routes between major cities amid a tit-for-tat dispute between the two carriers which continued to escalate over the weekend.


Nelson-based Origin's executive chairman Robert Inglis said his airline was taking a serious look at flying the main trunk routes, because it was having difficulty deploying its fleet in the provinces without facing "capacity dumping" from Air New Zealand. The company has previously said it did not have the financial strength to compete on the major routes.

Mr Inglis was responding to an announcement by Air New Zealand subsidiary Air Nelson last week that it would add some 6000 flights a year on nine routes and increase the seats available each week by about 8 per cent.

"All the planned increases are on provincial routes that Origin Pacific has services scheduled to," he said.

"Perhaps the Commerce Commission could look at this coincidence as well, as it appears that Air New Zealand is only responding to its very high growth rate by targeting routes that we serve."

Mr Inglis said there appeared to be no increases in routes to Whangerei, Gisborne, Taupo and Timaru, which Origin did not fly to. It was "improbable" that there had been no increased demand on the main routes where Air New Zealand made 66 per cent of its domestic profits.

Expanding just the provincial flights lent further support to Origin's contention that it was being targeted, he said.

But in response, Air New Zealand said it was not just expanding capacity on routes flown by Origin. "The Air New Zealand media release (that) Origin Pacific refers to only relates to those regional services operated by Air Nelson.

"Mount Cook Airlines and Eagle Air have also increased capacity, in many cases on the regional routes that Origin Pacific does not fly," it said. It was "no secret" that Air New Zealand would be adding two more Boeing 737 aircraft to the main trunk routes over the summer, it said.

Air New Zealand and Origin Pacific airlines have been trading blows since the latter was forced to drop a planned service between Hamilton and Christchurch after Air New Zealand said it would match the service. The larger airline said its service would leave Hamilton at the same time and start on the same day – but would be flown by an aircraft with more than twice as many seats as Origin would be offering.

An Air New Zealand newsletter, dated September 5, noted Origin Pacific's plans and said Air New Zealand was "responding to counter this move" as it had to in a competitive environment. But Air New Zealand said it had been considering the route for two years and it was part of a plan put before management on July 2.

Origin's Mr Inglis last week lodged a formal complaint with the Commerce Commission that accused Air New Zealand of "blatant misuse" of its dominant position.

The very public dispute over Air New Zealand's competitive practices comes at a bad time for Air New Zealand, which is awaiting a commission decision on its planned alliance with Qantas.

Origin told a commission hearing into that issue that it would have to cut services if the deal were allowed as it would lose an agreement with Qantas which feeds it with customers.

============================================

[Eurocap]

Spin,

The only aircraft that could replace the F27 is the ATR 72-500.

It can go all the places that an F27 can go and in stronger winds.

I agree the Origin ATR is noisy but it aint an ATR72-500.

:ouch: :ouch: :ouch:

[Vmo248]

Was the ATR and J41's bought cos previous owners scheme matched Origins, without very much at all in the way of repainting??!!

Here's links to pics of two of the fleet, in prev owners liveries - a gold line or two, some peeling and placing of logos. Presto! :ok:

ATR72 D-ADDD now ZK-JSZ (http://www.luftfahrt.net/galerie/showpix.php?id=6345)

and what OP's ATR72 looks like now.. (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/266554/M/)

and

Air Atlantic J41 C-FTVP now ZK-JSN (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/241768/M/)

and what the OP J41 looks like now... (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/246933/M/)

[BCF Breath]

You might find that the ATR72-5 will replace the SAAB and 2 of the three Link companies will combine.
I suppose Robert will go crying to the competition watchdog over that as well if it happens.

If he has any managers left to control his emipre. What's that now, 5 Managers of Airline Ops??

[Thump & Go]

Vmo M 0.48, I had heard that about the OP purchases too,picked for their oh so similar paint schemes.Do real(debatable) airlines really choose a/c this way?surely not:(

Eurocap,any a/c currently in NZ could(& did) replace an F27? I think you'll find saabs & beeches go anywhere those noisy little fokkers could go and more "and in stronger winds"
ATR's are just plain bloody LOUD,try standing next to a MT Chook one for a nano second & you'll realise -200 or -500 it just doesn't matter - from Class 1 hearing to "what did you say?" in no time;)

Heard that saab replacement may be pushed back a fair bit till something suitable(at the right price) turns up.
Wont be holding my BCF breath to see 2 of the links join together, nor do I see Air Nelson replacing 33 seaters with 66,it's not going to happen - maybe you could shed some light CT7?

Thump:ok:

[CT7]

And what makes you think I know what the gnomes in the headshed are being told...:p

I did hear that the -42 isn't as "common parted" or as cheap to operate as you would think with the -72.

The SAABs are slowly getting tired, but, like the bandits, they'll use every last ounce of time unless something really cheap comes along.
They are however looking at absolutely everything under the sun.

At least the F-27 could carry the load. With a fwd and aft hold, no trim problems. A la -72. The trick is not to stand outside near them when on the ground.;)
Anything with an apu or prop brake is noisey.

Maybe they will pick up the SAAB 2000's from Rex :ok: :D :O :p ;)
yeah, right... nice beast though!

[1279shp]

Here's a thort..

Maybe they'll choose to replace the Saabie's with something with all-white bcns/a-colls?

The 1900D has white "pulsing" beacons, white a-colls.

The ATR72 has white strobing beacons, white a-colls.

The Saab though has red strobing (or rotating to show a relly old one!) beacons, white a-colls. Making it the odd one out of the "link" fleet. :8

The ATR42 has white/white, the Do328 has white/white.. now there is a thort: 328Jet!

[CT7]

There's a good story from way back that the only reason Mt Cook got the ATR was because Robert (when he "ruled" Nelson) wanted the S2000 and wouldn't budge!

Course Nelson could handle it. Some of the older guys may struggle with the technical (avionic) bits but they train very very well.

328 Jet, yup the boys would love that! And it's not too big to trigger that so called "Scope Clause" that someone mentioned around here a while back.

Any use in NZ on the short hops that Nelson do? Don't know, not a perf eng. But my guess not.
The 328 standard maybe......

Yeah! What's this deal with white A/Colls?? And the Beech, modern thing with not even a strobing one!

[#1AHRS]

Saab 2000 finished Saab's airliner aspirations and became an expensive lemon for those that operated it. I personally paxed on them a LOT and as a passenger they were noisey (old generation NVS failed) and cramped (same cabin as the 340 only longer). The pilots loved them, the engineers hated them and the passengers preferred a Jet!

[1279shp]

A-Colls, tis bit of an old expression...
From the o/hd panel in the 1900D the "Exterior Lights" switches are for... (l-r)

-Ldg Left/Right
-Taxi
-Ice (in eng nacelles, handy for boarding too but never really used)
-Nav
-Anti-Collision: Beacon [on underfuse and atop bullet fairing on rudder. They flash very similarly to the tail beacon on a C152, except white.] Strobe [winglet mount ah, strobes :)]
-Recognition [fwd face lights inboard of nav lights]
-Tail Flood [Logo Lights]

It's a bit of a flying Las Vegas as far as lighting goes...though on saying that they are, excepting the navs, all white. So maybe a <insert mainly all white city here> :ok:

[splatgothebugs]

SAAB 2000.

Read an interesting article the other day on these ships, basically designed for crossair by SAAB (mistake 1). Mistake 2 lets connect the power levers and prop levers into one. Number 3 lets make up a whole new avionics suite and just throw it straight into the ship with out doing much in the way of testing.

All of that said I would be more than happy to fly one around gods own.

Air Nelson should take a trip to that aircraft grave yard in the states. Bet there is plenty of good SAAB's there. :)

[BCF Breath]

Obviously the few I paxed on in Europe musta been workin' fine.

But they go fast!! What else do ya want? Value for money! Nah, speed!

[splatgothebugs]

Speed, Flight attendants and more than 3 wheels is always a safe bet

[1279shp]

Weren't the S2000 370 in the cruise? Them big-bum 50 blade props!

"Ah Sven, vee en twarbul ya?!"

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/252099/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/252100/M/

"Open Seesar... ah crap, too slow!"

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/050162/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/050159/M/

[BCF Breath]

Yeah!! Of course!!
How could I have missed that!!

Two Hosties!

[zulu kilo]

Back to the original topic,

Origin will be starting a Daily AKL-WLG-AKL service from the 13oct in a J41. Will be interesting to see what happens.

New routes of interest include:

WLG - TUO - WLG (J32)

NSN - ROT - AKL (J32)

NPE - WLG - NPE (J41)

HLZ - TRG (J31)

[Vmo248]

HN-TG = 42nm/MSA 5000.

[BCF Breath]

Gad!

AA - WN on a J 41! The benefit being what??

[splatgothebugs]

HN - TG it's going to be a very quick expensive mission.

Loadings on that run would only be around 5-10 pax per sector, and the time that it operates is head to head with a couple other inbds (guess who will get held up). All that and the fact that OGN has pulled out of TG 3 times in recent years will make it hard to get a good client base.

Could be a very short lived run:hmm:

[Dances_With_Clouds]

Word has it that they will also be doing a TG-RO sector on Saturdays. Talk about quick sectors...

D_W_C

[Anti Skid On]

NSN - ROT - AKL (J32)

They used to do an AKL ROT at about 0830 daily - fantastic for me - I get the mates arriving at AKL and they could always get a seat for $39 or so to ROT - but there was NEVER an ROT - AKL return flight - seems it is here, but the AKL - ROT has not resurfaced.

Who plans their routes - someone that is dyslexic?

[1279shp]

TG-RO is 26nm MSA 3600'. The bloody taxy to the t/hold in TG wud be longer than the flight time!

[BCF Breath]

The F-27's used to do it all the time. WN-AP-RO-TG and back!
Not so good on a bad day!!

[1279shp]

Now there's an idea that might work for OP, the "milk run"! :ok:

Pax who get on at AA will have made ten stops come CH, but will get to make a lot of T-O's/Ldgs! And get to see a lot of airports! :)

[MOR]

Inglis was always a lightweight. He was a lightweight in the Mot-Air days, when an intemperate remark or two resulted in Mt Cook aka Air NZ putting an HS 748 on the Nelson-Wellington route and shutting him down in a few weeks.

That he survived at all to run Air Nelson was more to do with largesse on the part of Air NZ, than ability to manage an airline.

On the other hand, Air NZ are back to their old tricks of trying to dominate the market and force everybody else into bankruptcy or, worse, Air NZ ownership.

Airline operation in NZ is a relatively simple proposition. You have a very small population, so the economies of scale will never work. If you are a small operator, you have to find niche markets that your competitor can't serve (very difficult in NZ due to the building of decent airports everywhere in the 60's), or you have to provide a significantly better product- and you won't be doing that with a turboprop. The other method is slightly more difficult- flood the country with new, luxury aircraft and charge nothing unitl you put Air NZ out of business for good! Expensive option though.

Let's face it, Air NZ domestic is itself a very small airline in international terms, and they have struggled for years. Ansett NZ came the closest to breaking the monopoly, although they lost a lot of money, they came closest to acheiving the goal of breaking Air NZ domination. I flew with them as a pax, and would always choose them over Air NZ.

Regarding aircraft, I would take an F27 any day over an ATR. Better built, great to fly and much more capable in a crosswind... watching ATR72s trying to land in a 30kt crosswind is truly frightening. Noise levels are similar on the inside. And there is definitely something funky about pneumatic brakes!

The only turboprop that seems a likely proposition for the NZ market is the Bombardier Q400. Just takes somebody to have the spheres to take some on...

[Eurocap]

MOR

Get off the happy backky.

The F27 is an old heap compared to the ATR 72. Pneumatic steering and brakes, noisy RR Darts, old avionics, a gas guzzler, and extremely noisy and heavy, compared to the ATR with a 35kt crosswind capability, narrow runway (14m) ops, half the fuel consumption rate for twice the load carrying capability, modern avionics and GPS for navigation (standard fit).

All turbo props are noisy outside, but the ATR 72-500 is much quieter than the F27.

As for the Dash 8-400. That would be the quickest way to go broke in NZ. The speed that it has would be eroded by the ATC system we see in this country and the short sectors that it would have to do.

That could also be why it has not been a big seller in the rest of the world as well, especially as the travelling public's perception would favour a jet.

Bring on the Embraer 170.

:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[MOR]

Well, maybe, but show me an ATR after 30 years service and I'll show you a very tired aircraft (if it even gets to that age). They are light, yes- built to a price, not to a good spec. All the ones I have seen look very doggy after a few years.

We used to land the F27 in Guernsey on really horrible, windy, wet dark nights. It coped pretty well. The ATRs though, with that narrow track gear, were all over the place.

Ours had GPS, for commuter ops you hardly need the latest EFIS gear.

Anyway... whatever floats your boat. You like 'em, I don't... fair enough!